27 replies to this topic

[EMP]

Which nootropics are considered to be effective for language learning? I'm going on exchange to Russia and would like to spend my summer learning the basics of the language. Considering that the language is far from easy to learn, I'm considering to use nootropics to facilitate the process.

[bdoris]

Which nootropics are considered to be effective for language learning? I'm going on exchange to Russia and would like to spend my summer learning the basics of the language. Considering that the language is far from easy to learn, I'm considering to use nootropics to facilitate the process.

A combination of:
- Piracetam
- Choline
- DMAE
- Idebenone

Idebenone has vastly improved my reaction time to visual or auditory stimuli (50-100ms) - it should most likely help with learning languages. I have been able to learn the basics of Swedish in 5 days - two levels (8 units) of the Rosetta Stone software, plus some additional material from multilanguage chat systems (sharedtalk.com) and trying to watch a movie in Swedish, plus spending all the time listening to Swedish when not actively learning.

It has been somewhat intensive, and this is the first language I'm learning in over 10 years, but now I can understand the basics of a complicated movie, make basic conversations and generally everything that is necessary for someone who would go to the country.

I have been taking Methylphenidate (Ritalin) as well but it is mostly for ADHD so I'm not sure whether it will help or may be a bit too much for you.

[Cephalon]

Hi EMP,

When you are in Russia you should be able to get your hands on a wide range of Russian nootropics such as:

Semax
Cerebrolysin
Phenylpiracetam
Noopept

They should all help you with language learning to a certain degree.

Good luck!

[EMP]

@ Bdoris

Is Idebenone a safe nootropic.

Hi EMP,

When you are in Russia you should be able to get your hands on a wide range of Russian nootropics such as:

Semax
Cerebrolysin
Phenylpiracetam
Noopept

They should all help you with language learning to a certain degree.

Good luck!

Never heard of these nootropics, but have you tried them yourself? I have been doing research now for about a month on nootropics and want to start off with piracetam. Are these Russian nootropics safe?


Thanks guys, your help is appreciated!

[bdoris]

@ Bdoris

Is Idebenone a safe nootropic.


Never heard of these nootropics, but have you tried them yourself? I have been doing research now for about a month on nootropics and want to start off with piracetam. Are these Russian nootropics safe?


Thanks guys, your help is appreciated!

Idebenone is very safe - little to none side effects at normal dosages. It is very similar to the CoQ10 (Ubiquinone) only Idebenone can cross the blood-brain barrier.

I haven't tried Noopept, nor Cerebrolysin - this last one is expensive and has to be administred intra-muscularly (IM). Noopept is rather strong from what I've gathered (1000 times as strong at Piracetam), so I'm not sure whether long term usage is really safe.

Edited by bdoris, 18 May 2011 - 11:38 AM.

[Elus]

Which nootropics are considered to be effective for language learning? I'm going on exchange to Russia and would like to spend my summer learning the basics of the language. Considering that the language is far from easy to learn, I'm considering to use nootropics to facilitate the process.

Not to be a debbie downer, but learning a language may not be the wisest use of your time. Consider the fact that a smart phone already allows me to have a conversation with other people in Spanish, and translation technology is becoming incredibly powerful very quickly. This means that other languages will be supported as well in the near future. Therefore, time spent learning a language, which is years to master for most people, might be better invested in other academic/intellectual pursuits or endeavors. These technologies will become ubiquitous in not only smartphones, but ear-pieces as well, and even contact lenses which have subtitles. That said, if you really do want to learn a language, you can ignore this post.

Check out the video if you're skeptical about the validity of my claim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXpPhTM3a6c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyRQnflIv6Y

Edited by Elus, 18 May 2011 - 12:43 PM.

[aLurker]

Which nootropics are considered to be effective for language learning? I'm going on exchange to Russia and would like to spend my summer learning the basics of the language. Considering that the language is far from easy to learn, I'm considering to use nootropics to facilitate the process.

Not to be a debbie downer, but learning a language may not be the wisest use of your time. Consider the fact that a smart phone already allows me to have a conversation with other people in Spanish, and translation technology is becoming incredibly powerful very quickly. This means that other languages will be supported as well in the near future. Therefore, time spent learning a language, which is years to master for most people, might be better invested in other academic/intellectual pursuits or endeavors. These technologies will become ubiquitous in not only smartphones, but ear-pieces as well, and even contact lenses which have subtitles. That said, if you really do want to learn a language, you can ignore this post.

Check out the video if you're skeptical about the validity of my claim...

Learning just the basics of the language is probably vastly superior if you want to pick up hot girls. It also conveys that you're trying to learn their language. Bad Russian seems a lot more charming and personal than a smart phone.

[bdoris]

Not to be a debbie downer, but learning a language may not be the wisest use of your time. Consider the fact that a smart phone already allows me to have a conversation with other people in Spanish, and translation technology is becoming incredibly powerful very quickly. This means that other languages will be supported as well in the near future. Therefore, time spent learning a language, which is years to master for most people, might be better invested in other academic/intellectual pursuits or endeavors. These technologies will become ubiquitous in not only smartphones, but ear-pieces as well, and even contact lenses which have subtitles. That said, if you really do want to learn a language, you can ignore this post.

Most information technologies have profound side effects on our brain; depression and anxiety disorders will only happen more and more often because those technologies are encouraging us to be lazy, physically and mentally. ADHD - for example - is more and more common because of that. It's so easy to tab-switch and 'multitask' on a computer that people don't even try to pay attention to something. A language isn't only a tool for a certain purpose - it is a way of thinking, a larger vocabulary both verbal and semantic making us able to form complex and abstract thoughts.

And learning a language develops your brain, your semantic processing, your verbal processing and indirectly your memory. Constantly learning and using your brain makes it healthier - and you become more intelligent. It is a scientifically proven and accepted fact that people who are more intelligent - that is, have a healthier brain - live longer, have much less diseases and neurological disorders.

So yeah, what you said was completely retarded - especially considering the fact that we are on a forum dedicated to longevity.

No offence meant, of course.

Edited by bdoris, 18 May 2011 - 01:57 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hi Emp,

I did not try any of the ones I mentioned, unfortunately.
It would be one of the first things I would do if I was in Russia

You can find information on this supplements on imminst easily.

Cerebrolysin sounds very promising. but as mentioned it needs to be given IM which is not too convenient.

Edited by Cephalon, 18 May 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[Raptor87]

Kul att du vill lära dig Svenska. Lycka till med det!

Anyway´s, I don´t understand why a language would be a bad investment. The stimuli alone would make you learn to take in information better.

But I understand where you are coming from. You must consider that it´s the same basic if I would say, why learn maths when we have calculators. Also applications in phones and such is a great aid, a dude that moved to Sweden learned a new language that way.

What Im interested in hearing is what Elus considers to be valuable information? Always nice to get new ideas!

[Wurzel Bagman]

Not to be a debbie downer, but learning a language may not be the wisest use of your time. Consider the fact that a smart phone already allows me to have a conversation with other people in Spanish, and translation technology is becoming incredibly powerful very quickly. This means that other languages will be supported as well in the near future. Therefore, time spent learning a language, which is years to master for most people, might be better invested in other academic/intellectual pursuits or endeavors. These technologies will become ubiquitous in not only smartphones, but ear-pieces as well, and even contact lenses which have subtitles. That said, if you really do want to learn a language, you can ignore this post.

Actually Elus, you couldn't be further from the truth. Learning multiple languages (especially musical language! :P) is probably the best way to improve overall intelligence and protect against brain diseases like Alzheimers. Language is a major lens for interpreting the world. Knowing many of them allows you to think radically different about the world around you. For example, knowing Spanish arguably the most descriptive language would probably spark a lot more emotion in you when appreciating a work of art. Chinese words for numbers are a lot shorter to mentally say in your head which gives Chinese people a considerable advantage when juggling multiple numbers at once and allows kids to pick up math concepts at an earlier age. Knowing a language that's quite direct like Russian would give you an edge in logical thinking. And there's some language somewhere (sorry don't remember which) that doesn't have a words for "right" and "left". Instead, to communicate direction they use north, south, east and west. So at a table you might say "the fork is north-east of the plate". When these people were studied they were found to have a far superior sense of direction and didn't get lost nearly as easily in new environments.

Bilinguals See the World in a Different Way, Study Suggests
http://www.scienceda...10314132531.htm

Bilingualism Delays Onset of Alzheimer's Symptoms, Study Finds
http://www.scienceda...01108161226.htm

A Second Language Gives Toddlers an Edge
http://www.scienceda...10119120409.htm

Bilingual Benefits Reach Beyond Communication
http://www.scienceda...01109113028.htm

Juggling Languages Can Build Better Brains
http://www.scienceda...10218092529.htm

Person's Language May Influence How He or She Thinks About Other People
http://www.scienceda...00712115058.htm

Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
http://www.scienceda...10201110915.htm


Also, bdoris mentioned Rosetta Stone. This software is vastly superior to being taught a language in a classroom setting IMO. I always struggled learning other languages in school but after using that software I've been able to actually acquire language basics on a much deeper immersion level and not a sort of mentally translate from English in my head on the fly level. Do look into Rosetta Stone as it would probably make more of a difference in your learning than taking nootropics. Bdoris also mentioned Ritalin which has recently been found to not just improve focus but speed up the learning process. I was just diagnosed ADHD and am amazed at how much quicker I'm able to learn now. (I've tried all the common noots and none compare to MPH for me)

Ritalin Boosts Learning by Increasing Brain Plasticity
http://www.scienceda...00307215544.htm

Edited by Wurzel Bagman, 18 May 2011 - 05:55 PM.

[nito]

@ Bdoris

Is Idebenone a safe nootropic.


Never heard of these nootropics, but have you tried them yourself? I have been doing research now for about a month on nootropics and want to start off with piracetam. Are these Russian nootropics safe?


Thanks guys, your help is appreciated!

Idebenone is very safe - little to none side effects at normal dosages. It is very similar to the CoQ10 (Ubiquinone) only Idebenone can cross the blood-brain barrier.

I haven't tried Noopept, nor Cerebrolysin - this last one is expensive and has to be administred intra-muscularly (IM). Noopept is rather strong from what I've gathered (1000 times as strong at Piracetam), so I'm not sure whether long term usage is really safe.

how much idebenone do u take, and where do u get it from?

[bdoris]

how much idebenone do u take, and where do u get it from?

I take 3 times daily 180mg. I get it from a french supplier - though you can get it pretty much anywhere.

You can find it easy or buy it directly from PrimaForce (PrimaForce Idebenone 180mg 80 caps).

Another reliable and cheaper supplier would be Allstarhealth. And if you are in Europe and prefer ordering from mainland, there's Eurofitness but I'm not too happy with them - a bit slow.

Edited by bdoris, 19 May 2011 - 10:53 AM.

[Elus]

Most information technologies have profound side effects on our brain; depression and anxiety disorders will only happen more and more often because those technologies are encouraging us to be lazy, physically and mentally. ADHD - for example - is more and more common because of that. It's so easy to tab-switch and 'multitask' on a computer that people don't even try to pay attention to something. A language isn't only a tool for a certain purpose - it is a way of thinking, a larger vocabulary both verbal and semantic making us able to form complex and abstract thoughts.

You're advocating against the use of an information technology that has the capability to socially connect the world in a profound way because of perceived depression and anxiety disorders? I'm a prolific user of information technology, both in the academic and social sphere - I do not suffer from ADHD, nor do I feel it negatively impacts my ability to get things done. I find that it's quite the opposite, in fact, given the wide range of sources and people I can draw information from and communicate with.

Furthermore, I question the veracity of your claim that knowing an extra language allows your to form more complex thoughts. I would argue that this depends on the language, and that English is fairly apt for such purposes, exemplified by its use in the scientific and global community, and by its immense vocabulary.

And learning a language develops your brain, your semantic processing, your verbal processing and indirectly your memory. Constantly learning and using your brain makes it healthier - and you become more intelligent. It is a scientifically proven and accepted fact that people who are more intelligent - that is, have a healthier brain - live longer, have much less diseases and neurological disorders.

Learning mathematics, logical reasoning, or a scientific subject is also capable of conferring those same benefits. I agree that intelligence is key to living longer; I do not agree that you should waste your time learning a skill which will become outdated in the foreseeable future. It's your choice.

So yeah, what you said was completely retarded - especially considering the fact that we are on a forum dedicated to longevity.

I won't stoop to your level and insult your post or intelligence, although I could. However, I would advise you to tone it down a notch. Nobody appreciates an angry backlash to what was a fairly innocuous post meant to inspire thought rather than rage.

Edited by Elus, 25 May 2011 - 05:00 AM.

[Elus]

Not to be a debbie downer, but learning a language may not be the wisest use of your time. Consider the fact that a smart phone already allows me to have a conversation with other people in Spanish, and translation technology is becoming incredibly powerful very quickly. This means that other languages will be supported as well in the near future. Therefore, time spent learning a language, which is years to master for most people, might be better invested in other academic/intellectual pursuits or endeavors. These technologies will become ubiquitous in not only smartphones, but ear-pieces as well, and even contact lenses which have subtitles. That said, if you really do want to learn a language, you can ignore this post.

Actually Elus, you couldn't be further from the truth. Learning multiple languages (especially musical language! :P) is probably the best way to improve overall intelligence and protect against brain diseases like Alzheimers. Language is a major lens for interpreting the world. Knowing many of them allows you to think radically different about the world around you. For example, knowing Spanish arguably the most descriptive language would probably spark a lot more emotion in you when appreciating a work of art. Chinese words for numbers are a lot shorter to mentally say in your head which gives Chinese people a considerable advantage when juggling multiple numbers at once and allows kids to pick up math concepts at an earlier age. Knowing a language that's quite direct like Russian would give you an edge in logical thinking. And there's some language somewhere (sorry don't remember which) that doesn't have a words for "right" and "left". Instead, to communicate direction they use north, south, east and west. So at a table you might say "the fork is north-east of the plate". When these people were studied they were found to have a far superior sense of direction and didn't get lost nearly as easily in new environments.

Bilinguals See the World in a Different Way, Study Suggests
http://www.scienceda...10314132531.htm

Bilingualism Delays Onset of Alzheimer's Symptoms, Study Finds
http://www.scienceda...01108161226.htm

A Second Language Gives Toddlers an Edge
http://www.scienceda...10119120409.htm

Bilingual Benefits Reach Beyond Communication
http://www.scienceda...01109113028.htm

Juggling Languages Can Build Better Brains
http://www.scienceda...10218092529.htm

Person's Language May Influence How He or She Thinks About Other People
http://www.scienceda...00712115058.htm

Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
http://www.scienceda...10201110915.htm


Also, bdoris mentioned Rosetta Stone. This software is vastly superior to being taught a language in a classroom setting IMO. I always struggled learning other languages in school but after using that software I've been able to actually acquire language basics on a much deeper immersion level and not a sort of mentally translate from English in my head on the fly level. Do look into Rosetta Stone as it would probably make more of a difference in your learning than taking nootropics. Bdoris also mentioned Ritalin which has recently been found to not just improve focus but speed up the learning process. I was just diagnosed ADHD and am amazed at how much quicker I'm able to learn now. (I've tried all the common noots and none compare to MPH for me)

Ritalin Boosts Learning by Increasing Brain Plasticity
http://www.scienceda...00307215544.htm

I don't argue that language learning does not confer those benefits. However, given the progression of information technology, I would choose to invest time in other endeavors/subjects that can also confer the same benefits while offering greater utility for the time invested.

[rvogels1]

I think that the source of the dissent you're receiving, Elus, has to do with the sort of precious quality that we associate with our languages. It seems wrong and insulting to say that exploring another language will become obsolete and ultimately a waste of time. I understand that perspective but I also understand yours. Nevertheless, I personally don't think that translating technology will be the strongest option for the future. I hope, at least, that we aren't wandering around in a new country speaking into our phones and holding our phones towards the speaker to get translations. A universal (a bit of a misnomer :P) language of the species Homo Sapiens would be ideal. Divided language is an understandable but lamentable quirk of evolution. We should take evolution into our own hands and start to use one language. Of course, linguists would certainly frown at the loss of all the beauty of languages. Anyways, I do think that learning mathematics would be more practical than learning a new language, but there is no mathematical analog to Rosetta Stone. A differential equations textbook just doesn't compete. The argument for strengthening the brain based off of language-learning is simply a specified version of the real argument, which states that environmental and intellectual enrichment strengthens the brain. All sorts of intellectual endeavors do this, whether it's learning a new language, mathematics, new technology or a new field of biological sciences. It's a matter of personal preference. I don't believe that one endeavor has been empirically demonstrated to be more effective than any of the other ones.

[marbleowen]

I didn't read too much of the banter here, but anything that blocks acetylcholinesterase from ever getting a raise is your best bet. Huperzine, or Aricept if you can find it. Acetylcholinesterase is the enemy of learning to some extent, it removes our study buddies acetylcholine from their libraries in the brain and makes them go home. Think of acetylcholine as the students, acetylcholine receptors as the library and acetylcholinesterase as the librarians who shut the place down too early. So get acetylcholinesterase fired from her job and you study more.

[Elus]

I think that the source of the dissent you're receiving, Elus, has to do with the sort of precious quality that we associate with our languages. It seems wrong and insulting to say that exploring another language will become obsolete and ultimately a waste of time. I understand that perspective but I also understand yours. Nevertheless, I personally don't think that translating technology will be the strongest option for the future. I hope, at least, that we aren't wandering around in a new country speaking into our phones and holding our phones towards the speaker to get translations. A universal (a bit of a misnomer :P) language of the species Homo Sapiens would be ideal. Divided language is an understandable but lamentable quirk of evolution. We should take evolution into our own hands and start to use one language. Of course, linguists would certainly frown at the loss of all the beauty of languages. Anyways, I do think that learning mathematics would be more practical than learning a new language, but there is no mathematical analog to Rosetta Stone. A differential equations textbook just doesn't compete. The argument for strengthening the brain based off of language-learning is simply a specified version of the real argument, which states that environmental and intellectual enrichment strengthens the brain. All sorts of intellectual endeavors do this, whether it's learning a new language, mathematics, new technology or a new field of biological sciences. It's a matter of personal preference. I don't believe that one endeavor has been empirically demonstrated to be more effective than any of the other ones.

It seems I'm treading on holy ground indeed, and I suppose people don't appreciate it when I put a radically different viewpoint which undermines the value of knowing multiple languages. I suppose I'll let the future untangle itself, so to speak.

(As an aside.... Anyone who thinks I'm hating on multi-linguals is mistaken, if there are any here that believe this. I know three languages - English, Spanish, and Bulgarian.)

[manic_racetam]

Wow, this thread has gotten off topic. The most useful brain enhancer that I have experienced with learning language is methylphenidate. I took 30mg a day when I was in China and I noticed it really helped with new vocabulary integration into conversation. This might be due to an increase in reaction time or memory recall, not sure. Chinese is a bit of a mathematical language in my opinion though, and I know nothing about russian besides it being really difficult.


Personally racetams make me a bit more internalized and less eager to socialize, which would not be the best for practicing spoken language. It would likely be helpful in learning to read and write though. Personally I find that actively using a spoken language, especially a new one, is much more interesting and rewarding than writing. I hope you enjoy your time there and have fun learning a new language, it's one of the coolest experiences ever.

[bdoris]

Wow, this thread has gotten off topic. The most useful brain enhancer that I have experienced with learning language is methylphenidate. I took 30mg a day when I was in China and I noticed it really helped with new vocabulary integration into conversation. This might be due to an increase in reaction time or memory recall, not sure. Chinese is a bit of a mathematical language in my opinion though, and I know nothing about russian besides it being really difficult.

Piracetam would help - your brain would process the auditory input a bit better. I'd suggest Idebenone, and pretty much any nootropic which makes your brain better and lower your reaction times to auditory stimuli. Methylphenidate has a mixed effect in that regard - my audition seems a bit better when I'm not taking methylphenidate - or take it less regularly (1 every 3 days).

I've started learning Swedish, as well as Chinese more recently - and with the nootropics I take, I noticed my pitch perception has improved drastically - to the degree of which I've beginning to develop a perfect pitch; I can manage with pretty good accuracy (70%) to determine the pitch of a dog's bark, or of someone's voice, and can much easily reproduce melodies I hear, as well as remember them; two weeks ago, I was around 30% of accuracy.

I do practice many hours (4+) daily through the Rosetta Stone software, as well as listen to classical music all day - started practising piano again, and do some auditory exercises from the Posit Science software. I can't tell whether it is the nootropics, or one particular exercise, or all the exercises which contribute to it - but so far my pitch discrimination is drastically improving. I do two hours of light cardio - I run on a treadmill, all the while doing mathematical exercises or sudoku, all the while listening to classical music, mostly piano.

Anyway, I do take various supplements, Piracetam and Idebenone, as well as a complex with Resveratrol, Vinpocetine, ALCAR, Phosphatidylserine.

I did recently a treatment for my depression through higher dose of DHEA (400mg daily) for one week - It helped a lot for my episodic memory recall, but I'm not sure whether it had any effect on my hearing - theoretically, it shouldn't have any effects except indirect ones.

I'm recording my progress, so I'll inform you of the results and how much has my pitch discrimination improved.

@Elus - I wanted to answer you a few hours ago, but when my post reached 800 words and wasn't even half finished, I decided to post it later in a new topic more as an essay than an answer, since it is somewhat of an important topic. The "capacity to socially connect the world in a profound way" that you advocate will most likely have the opposite effect - except on a minority of people, like you seem to be. Just so you know, I didn't mean to insult you or your intelligence, you said yourself it was an inspiring post - you should know that inspiring texts are really dangerous, whether written or spoken; history has proved it. If one were to take to heart your advices, can you guarantee that it would have been a wise decision? All the studies suggest that it wouldn't be - in a world where 7 persons out of 10 have problems controlling their impulses ~ just look at obesity rates, smoking rates and such; can you guarantee that the 7 persons out of 10 who use those technologies won't be affected in a negative way?

What works for you doesn't necessary work for everyone. Television, 90 years ago, did have beneficial effects, yet television is one of the worst brain killers for people who cannot control their impulse and watch TV in a intellectually passive way. Our way of line - principally the American way which is propagating through Europe, is devastating health-wise and brain-wise.

Also, communication is much more complex than a series of letters exchanged. The choice of words, the rhythm, the rhymes, the tone, the volume, the change of volume, change of pitch/tone, pauses, the semantic meanings differ from countries to countries - "an apple" in English will not have the same meaning as "une pomme" in French or "ät äpplen" in Swedish or "Píngguǒ" in Chinese - because the culture of every country is different, the same word will bring different sets and types of memories. Some may perceive it more visually, others will perceive more the taste, in some language an apple will be considered somewhat more abstract compared to another language - for example, some may associate apples with the abstract concept of a circle, or an ellipse, or any geometrical shape, while others associate it with religion - that apples are holy or whatever.

Languages aren't tools, but ways of thinking, ways of living, they can only enrich you mentally.

Do read a bit on communication, paralanguage, non-verbal communication, they are as important as the language itself, it is so complex and dependant on culture, age, sex, religions - everything - that translation technologies won't ever be able to replace the need for not learning a language.

Next time you write an inspiring post, please do check all the facts - myself I've been inspired and changed my life in parts due to inspiring texts - I would hate the guy who wrote them if he hasn't researched the subject before writing them and those changes end up being detrimental to myself.

Edit: I wanted to be short, I ended up writing a TL;DR post again >_>
Edit2: I did make an awful lot of grammatical mistakes - please disregard that.

Edited by bdoris, 25 May 2011 - 08:17 PM.

[manic_racetam]

Wow, this thread has gotten off topic. The most useful brain enhancer that I have experienced with learning language is methylphenidate. I took 30mg a day when I was in China and I noticed it really helped with new vocabulary integration into conversation. This might be due to an increase in reaction time or memory recall, not sure. Chinese is a bit of a mathematical language in my opinion though, and I know nothing about russian besides it being really difficult.

Piracetam would help - your brain would process the auditory input a bit better. I'd suggest Idebenone, and pretty much any nootropic which makes your brain better and lower your reaction times to auditory stimuli. Methylphenidate has a mixed effect in that regard - my audition seems a bit better when I'm not taking methylphenidate - or take it less regularly (1 every 3 days).

I've started learning Swedish, as well as Chinese more recently - and with the nootropics I take, I noticed my pitch perception has improved drastically - to the degree of which I've beginning to develop a perfect pitch; I can manage with pretty good accuracy (70%) to determine the pitch of a dog's bark, or of someone's voice, and can much easily reproduce melodies I hear, as well as remember them; two weeks ago, I was around 30% of accuracy....

....ate the guy who wrote them if he hasn't researched the subject before writing them and those changes end up being detrimental to myself.[/b]

Edit: I wanted to be short, I ended up writing a TL;DR post again >_>
Edit2: I did make an awful lot of grammatical mistakes - please disregard that.

I agree with you on the effect of racetams and auditory processing (pitch, etc) and that would likely be useful especially for Chinese. For me oxiracetam had the most dramatic effect with auditory processing. Never really appreciated music before I started with that substance and now when I listen to music I have all sorts of emotional and cognitive responses that are so enjoyable. I noticed that when I stopped taking the oxi the effect diminished quite a bit. I'd be interested to find out if you can retain the new found perfect pitch when not taking piracetam or to what extent it's amplifying the effect.

[Elus]

It's not my intention to derail this thread any longer, and I'd like to request that a moderator make another topic for this discussion so as to facilitate a more focused discussion on the poster's original question.

The "capacity to socially connect the world in a profound way" that you advocate will most likely have the opposite effect - except on a minority of people, like you seem to be.

Where is your evidence? It's absurd that you think information technologies are so detrimental. As you can well see from this forum, information technology has brought together many intelligent people and serves as a means to improve ourselves. To claim such negative views despite your prolific usage of the technology is silly at best, and downright hypocritical at worst. The technology I advocate, and which may soon be available, is no different from the technologies which exist today in that it will serve to further connect us. The benefits of information technology far outweigh the minor side effects.

Just so you know, I didn't mean to insult you or your intelligence

Let's say I said to you: "You're a retard, no offense." See what I did there? Just because I tacked on "no offense" to the sentence does not make it less offensive in any way, which is what you attempted to do in your original reply to me. But rest assured, I did not take offense to your original post, just because I'm someone who doesn't get particularly offended when some random user on the internet chooses to flame me. However, other users might not be quite so kind, which is why I suggested you cool off.

you said yourself it was an inspiring post - you should know that inspiring texts are really dangerous, whether written or spoken; history has proved it. If one were to take to heart your advices, can you guarantee that it would have been a wise decision? All the studies suggest that it wouldn't be - in a world where 7 persons out of 10 have problems controlling their impulses ~ just look at obesity rates, smoking rates and such; can you guarantee that the 7 persons out of 10 who use those technologies won't be affected in a negative way?

Smoking is not an information technology, and obesity is not even a technology, it's a condition. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. The fact that you picked a few negative technologies/things that exist in our society and chose to ignore the millions of other beneficial ones doesn't really lend any credence to your argument.

It is extraordinarily hypocritical to argue to argue that people would impulsively misuse information technology when this entire forum, ON WHICH YOU ARE ARGUING WITH ME, suggests precisely the opposite - i.e. information technology being used to the benefit of mankind.

What works for you doesn't necessary work for everyone. Television, 90 years ago, did have beneficial effects, yet television is one of the worst brain killers for people who cannot control their impulse and watch TV in a intellectually passive way. Our way of line - principally the American way which is propagating through Europe, is devastating health-wise and brain-wise.

While watching too much television can be unhealthy, it is also a fantastic source of information and entertainment when watched in moderation, as the MAJORITY of people do. I'm not really sure why you hold such black and white views and reject all of the beneficial sides of technology. Anyone can point out the flaws in a given technology, but you're blowing these flaws out of proportion and you fail to acknowledge the benefits. Being able to communicate with other people using powerful translation technology will undoubtedly throw open new doors and knock down old barriers.

Also, communication is much more complex than a series of letters exchanged. The choice of words, the rhythm, the rhymes, the tone, the volume, the change of volume, change of pitch/tone, pauses, the semantic meanings differ from countries to countries - "an apple" in English will not have the same meaning as "une pomme" in French or "ät äpplen" in Swedish or "Píngguǒ" in Chinese - because the culture of every country is different, the same word will bring different sets and types of memories. Some may perceive it more visually, others will perceive more the taste, in some language an apple will be considered somewhat more abstract compared to another language - for example, some may associate apples with the abstract concept of a circle, or an ellipse, or any geometrical shape, while others associate it with religion - that apples are holy or whatever.

In a world where communication is increasingly non-verbal, and the types of media available to us grow more diverse as our technology expands, your above reasoning only serves to verify the validity of my advocacy for information technologies which bring down the evolutionary barriers that have for so long existed between us.

Do read a bit on communication, paralanguage, non-verbal communication, they are as important as the language itself, it is so complex and dependant on culture, age, sex, religions - everything - that translation technologies won't ever be able to replace the need for not learning a language.

Next time you write an inspiring post, please do check all the facts - myself I've been inspired and changed my life in parts due to inspiring texts - I would hate the guy who wrote them if he hasn't researched the subject before writing them and those changes end up being detrimental to myself.

I can only hope that you'll think more outside the box as you approach paradigms that you may not be very comfortable with. One of my close friends studies linguistics, and we talk about the field and I read about these things on my own time as well - I'm more versed in the topic that you'd probably care to admit, so it's a little arrogant of you to assume I'm not.

Edited by Elus, 25 May 2011 - 10:32 PM.

[bdoris]

I agree with you on the effect of racetams and auditory processing (pitch, etc) and that would likely be useful especially for Chinese. For me oxiracetam had the most dramatic effect with auditory processing. Never really appreciated music before I started with that substance and now when I listen to music I have all sorts of emotional and cognitive responses that are so enjoyable. I noticed that when I stopped taking the oxi the effect diminished quite a bit. I'd be interested to find out if you can retain the new found perfect pitch when not taking piracetam or to what extent it's amplifying the effect.

My guess is that after stopping piracetam, the ability will diminish somewhat if you stop trying to discriminate pitch but would remain otherwise present, albeit most likely to a slightly lesser degree - the only way to retain it would be to practice it very heavily as to induce LTP (long term potentiation) between the specific neurons for that task - how much time would I need?

Children can develop absolute pitch if they are exposed very young to music and they acquire it very rarely after the age of 6 - LTP takes roughly ten years, less with young children. If your sound processing areas in your brain are consolidated without the necessary circuitry for pitch discrimination, it becomes harder and harder with age to acquire it, especially if you don't practice it.

It takes about ten years for memories to consolidate - if the specific "inability" to discriminate pitch is consolidated in the cortex - which is most likely the case - and is considered as a memory - seems possible as it's not a motor function - then you'd have to practice that skill for more or less ten years before it becomes permanent. It's just a very basic guess.

It's not something we have or have not though - we all have it to some degrees though - Piracetam would lower the inhibitions, thus let us modify "temporarely" the consolidated memories - you'd need to practice it for the necessary amount of time for LTP to occur for those changes to become permanent.

Abstract from this study

Determinations of pitch can be based on either of 2 attributes of a tone: its chroma, a quality shared by all notes described by a particular letter (e.g., C, D, E), and its height, the position of one note relative to others. Absolute pitch is the ability to identify a note based on its chroma. There is a critical period for the acquisition of absolute pitch. Although this skill can be achieved through appropriate training, it has been observed that children over the age of 6 find it difficult to acquire absolute pitch, and this difficulty increases with age. Our research institute has been investigating the relationship of age to the development of absolute pitch in children. The present experiment reports results from training 8 children (four 2-year-olds and four 5-year-olds). The younger children identified notes based on their chroma, whereas the older children focused mainly on the notes' height. This tendency to shift from an emphasis on chroma to one on height increased with increasing age, thereby making the acquisition of absolute pitch more difficult. (author abst.)

That makes me wonder - if HM - the biggest celebrity in the field of Neurology (who incidentally didn't knew he was a celebrity - well, if he had taken Piracetam, would his ability to modify his consolidated memories be greatly improved? He did manage to acquire new memories temporarily through this process, so it's not that far of a stretch to imagine that Piracetam would have helped him in the process.

He would have been the ideal candidate to really examine the extent of any Nootropic :(

R.I.P, HM. We'll miss you.

[manic_racetam]

I agree with you on.....
He would have been the ideal candidate to really examine the extent of any Nootropic :(

R.I.P, HM. We'll miss you.

The most remarkable thing that struck me about his story was that he was able to modify existing long term memories as a way around forming new memories.

[Esoparagon]

Anything that helps you to concentrate, focus, and remember because that's all it takes.

You essentially have to remember 6,000 words, a few thousand phrases, and a bunch of grammar mixed with hours and hours of listening to native speech to get to a level of getting by comfortably and then you have to read vast amounts of the language to get the nuances of how the words are used and the nuances in meanings. Native speakers will know more than 20,000 words so getting to that level takes a lot of time. With 1000 words you can certainly express yourself clumsily but it's not impossible.

[EMP]

I just listened to the first language CD of Russian by Michel Thomas, which I generally like very much and I noticed that I especially have difficulties remembering certain words, even when I've heard them multiple times. Now I don't know to what part of my memory this is exactly related, but I'd be curious to hear it from you guys and which nootropic suits best to enhance this area.

[EMP]

I should add that my long-term memory is very strong, but short-term is a joke...

[kodida]

Idebenone has vastly improved my reaction time to visual or auditory stimuli (50-100ms) - it should most likely help with learning languages.

Apologies for going even more off-topic here, but that sounds positively amazing. Is that a rough estimate, or did you actually test? If you did test - what is your average reaction time after taking it and before?

Thanks a lot for any info. Regardless, I'll definitely be checking that one out.