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Phosphatidyl Serine


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17 replies to this topic

#1 Cephalon

  • Location:Cologne

Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:30 PM


Hi Imminst People!

Did you try Phosphatidyl Serine?

Can a healthy young guy expect any noticable effects from supplementing 200mg PS a day?

I could not realy find much with the search function. I see many people use PS but I did not find any reviews yet.

Since this stuff is so amazingly expensive everywhere (at places that ship internationaly) I just want to make sure it's worth it.

Currently I'm taking:

Oxiracetam 750mg x 2
Choline Bitartrate 500mg x 2
Piracetam 1200mg x 2
Fish Oil 1g x 2
Methylcobalmine 1mg
Lithium 1mg
Melatonin 1mg
P5P 50mg
Adrafinil 300mg EOD


Thank you very much for letting me know!

#2 What'sAllThisThen Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:14 AM

I've only been using 100mg a night for about 3 weeks now. I'd like to add some to my next order and try higher doses to see what more I can get from it.

So far I've noticed deeper sleep and more vivid dreams. When I wake up to go to the bathroom is one place where I notice the deeper sleep. I just feel heavier like I woke from a deep sleep, but not like I'm walking around wobbling from sleep walking or anything. The other part that suggest deeper sleep is just that I feel better when I awake. I can't tie it to PS completely, because I don't keep a journal and it was kind of a quick purchase once I saw some reviews about it with sleep and cortisol. However, For the last few months I've woken up tired with that "I don't want to get up and go to school/work" feeling. And since I'm good with my boss took advantage a few times.

Lately however I've woken up fine; no real difficulty or mental refusal. And that's even with sleep all the way up to the alarm. I may be in a good, dreaming sleep and I'll still just wake up without much fanfare. So without taking a break to find out for sure, I do believe it is positively affecting my sleep.

The other thing I notice is the vivid dreams. They seem to last longer are more imaginative and more vivid. I've always been a pretty good dreamer with recall most mornings, but it seems even better now. I noticed that the first night, and it was unexpected. I think a couple nights later I was actually jolted awake from a dream about a spider. That's happened before though.

I bought it because I've had what I call "sleep anxiety" and "waking anxiety" to a small degree for years now, off and on. Let me explain what I mean by those terms. The sleep anxiety is where shortly after falling to sleep I'll wake in a panic. It doesn't really bother me as it last for mere moments and I fall right back to sleep. The waking anxiety is where the last hour of my sleep is poor, plagued by unproductive, repetitive dreams and a feeling of anxiety in my chest. The dreams are repetitive as in they are in repetitive that morning, not that I have the same dream morning after morning. They'll be useless, pointless dreams but have something repetitive such as making a decision, or researching something. I'll be asleep, but it's poor and restless as I feel partially awake and want to just stop dreaming about this pointless thing. But my body feels anxious and keeps my mind in it, as I've always found anxiety in the body to affect the mind.

When I first read reviews on PS people mentioned it reducing cortisol and helping their sleep and anxiety during their sleep. Their stories matched mine (though mine isn't very severe or too bothersome), so I've actually thought to rename my waking anxiety my "cortisol hour." So I took PS to see how it affected that. I think the first morning I slept so deeply I really thought it worked well. But I have had a few cortisol hours in the last few weeks so it hasn't erased it. I don't recall any waking in a moment of panic though, so perhaps that has helped.

Again, I only take 100mg and will experiment further with a new batch. I just bought it from the store and I usually shop around online.

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#3 Matt79 Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:Bay Area, CA

Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:13 PM

Hi Imminst People!

Did you try Phosphatidyl Serine?

Can a healthy young guy expect any noticable effects from supplementing 200mg PS a day?

I could not realy find much with the search function. I see many people use PS but I did not find any reviews yet.

Since this stuff is so amazingly expensive everywhere (at places that ship internationaly) I just want to make sure it's worth it.

Currently I'm taking:

Oxiracetam 750mg x 2
Choline Bitartrate 500mg x 2
Piracetam 1200mg x 2
Fish Oil 1g x 2
Methylcobalmine 1mg
Lithium 1mg
Melatonin 1mg
P5P 50mg
Adrafinil 300mg EOD


Thank you very much for letting me know!


Would you mind explaining why you take Lithium? Really interested

#4 Cephalon Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:Cologne

Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:30 PM

Thanks for your replies!

In the end I did not try PS yet, because I did not find a good source in Europe, though I'm interested in the cortisol lowering effects as well.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your question, I take Lithium for nutritional reasons. That is why I only use 1mg. Everything above 1mg gives me the notable Lithium sideeffects, such as drowsiness, I'm not looking for. I split 5mg lithium aspartate caps in 5 (more or less) equal doses, which is a real hassle. For the actual motivation, please see Michael's supplement plan:
http://www.longecity...ills-fall-2009/

As well as this article:
http://bjp.rcpsych.o.../194/5/464.full

I can not tell a difference yet, since I'm not depressed or suicide prone anyways. I just treat it as a mineral such as magnesium or potassium as part of my multi mineral stack.

Does anyone know where I could get 1mg Lithium in capsules? That would safe me a lot of time!
I know Vimmortal has 1mg Lithium in it, which is a great +

#5 Matt79 Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:Bay Area, CA

Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:13 PM

Thanks Cephalon. Have you considered getting a Lithium blood serum test?

#6 noos Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:noosphere

Posted 02 November 2011 - 02:25 AM

Today I read an abstract about PS at 300 mg dose.
  • dislike x 1

#7 SpatialD Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:En route

Posted 07 November 2011 - 05:12 AM

Since PS is my first nootropic (correct me if I'm wrong - I think it qualifies as a bona fide 'noot'), it seems fitting that my first post should be in this thread.

I started taking The Vitamin Shoppe's PS complex about 3 days ago using the max dose (3 softgels) listed on the bottle. It lists the contents per softgel as 500mg Phosphatidylserine Complex (Sharp PS, whatever that is exactly), 100mg Phosphatidylserine, 25mg PC and a couple other things. I'm not sure about the difference between Sharp PS and just plain PS - Sharp appears to be a proprietary substance of the Enzymotec Corp., but that doesn't really tell me anything. So I'm not sure if I'm taking 1,800mg or just 300mg of actual PS.

Anyway, I'd prefer straight PS but this stuff was all I could get locally and I wanted to try a small bottle before ordering an expensive bucket of bulk powder online. I've felt a little foggy, but it seems to be strictly physiological whereas cognitively I'd describe the effect as clear and mellow, if that makes sense. In other words, if I stop typing right now I could easily stare at the wall for a few minutes and just go blank. But if something demands my attention or I just decide to start typing again, I have no problem training my focus on the task at hand.

Understand that part of the reason I went with PS right off was the cortisol lowering aspect. I fit the high cortisol profile to a tee and have for five or ten years now. So I'm wondering if I've been living in a state of constant stressed out hypervigilance for so long that the 'fog' I described above is just 'normal' and only seems strange because it's been so long since my mind has been able to catch its breath, as it were. It's just a theory.

Honestly, I don't think I'd like to feel this way long term, but it seems like something that might go away after my body becomes accustomed to this stuff. I may also reduce the dose in a few days and see what happens. The other thing is I've been trying to limit my caffeine consumption so maybe that's the problem. I do feel somewhat clearer after a cup of tea or coffee, but it doesn't last very long.

Otherwise, my sleep quality seems to have improved the past couple nights, which has been wonderful. Could be a placebo effect, but I'll take it anyway. From what I understand, it'll take some time to get a proper sense of how this stuff will affect me in the long run (especially in terms of memory enhancement, etc.) so I'm content to get some rest while I wait and see.

I would like to know whether anyone else has experienced the fogginess with PS.

I've also ordered some Piracetam, ALCAR, and Sulbutiamine and will introduce those once I've decided what I think about the PS. Uncertain about proper dosage and how to go about adding the new stuff to my regime. Any suggestions? I've got some professional training of an intensely cognitive nature coming up next month and want to have my stack pretty much established by then as I'll need to know exactly what I'm doing and that it's not going to cause any problems, etc.

This is a great forum. I look forward to learning more and interacting with you folks. :)

#8 chrono Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:New England

Posted 13 November 2011 - 02:09 PM

Does anyone know where I could get 1mg Lithium in capsules? That would safe me a lot of time!


I don't think I've ever seen a 1mg pill that didn't have other active supps in it. I really like the Advanced Research brand of 5mg LiOr, available at iHerb. They are round tablets, which can be split easily and cleanly with the fingers into quarters.

#9 Cephalon Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:Cologne

Posted 13 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

Hi Chrono,

Thanks for your post, I will get tabs the next time! I read your other posts on that and ask myself, why I did not came up with that :)
Splitting tabs is obviously making more sense than opening caps, seperating the powder, filling small caps again etc.

Hi Matt,

Lithium will definately be on my next blood panel, thanks for the suggestion! Are you concerned i get to much Li? Or to little through supplementation?
I recently switched my drinking water to a brand I used to drink some time ago, which has 1mg lithium per bottle. But i still keep on supplementing with an additional 1mg, though not every day.

Hi SpatialD,

Welcome on board :) and thanks for your input! Are you still taking the PS? I suppose I also had over average cortisol levels, though beeing a full time student again this should have solved the issue :) Probably I will give PS a try sometime, though I'm currently happy with my nootropic regime (Oxiracetam, Aniracetam, Piracetam, CDP-Choline, Modafinil when needed). I'm currently more into life extension / healthy diet / energy restriction again.
I hope you find what you are looking for and have a good time at longecity!

Edited by Cephalon, 13 November 2011 - 04:23 PM.


#10 chrono Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:New England

Posted 13 November 2011 - 05:36 PM

Lithium will definately be on my next blood panel, thanks for the suggestion! Are you concerned i get to much Li? Or to little through supplementation?


I also wonder about this recommendation. It certainly couldn't hurt, especially if you get tests for free, but 1mg of lithium is an incredibly small amount, and a reaction like you described is pretty common to a 5mg dose (I get it myself).

#11 Cephalon Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:Cologne

Posted 13 November 2011 - 05:41 PM

1mg should be in the nutrition range, the pharmaceutical range will started at several multiples of that.
But out of curiosity I will add this to my next blood panel. I don't think it's that expensive. I will need to talk with my insurance anyways.
They could actualy sponsor a whole panel (with hormones, vitamins, minerals, liver values, tumor markers) once in a while ...

#12 What'sAllThisThen Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:06 PM

I did another one month run of PS a couple months ago and took maybe about 300mg a night on average. I wanted to see if the higher dose had a greater affect, but I didn't really notice it to a higher degree. I'm thinking now that although a higher dose would probably be more effective, that longer term use is more important to really start noticing its memory affects.

Both of my separate one month long trials ended with sudden, out-of-nowhere childhood memories. Similar to when you walk in to a room smell something, and then an old memory comes back to you. Only it was initiated by words and thoughts instead of smells. On a weekly basis I might think of random things from a long time ago, but after a month of PS usage the memories were very distant and nearly completely forgotten and they were vivid and sudden. Thinking of something from childhood is normal, but these memory spikes felt weird and boggling they were so random and distant.

One day I was thinking of a "green" house. By green house, I meant today's common usage of "green," as being environmentally friendly. I've thought about this topic several times a year for the past few years, and sometimes extensively in a given week. Yet this time, after a month of PS, as soon as I said green house to myself I had a sudden memory of a white-painted, popsicle stick, Saran wrap greenhouse I made back in 2nd grade (I'm 31). This memory was vivid and sudden and is seriously something I have not thought about since grade school. My usual sudden memories never feel so forgotten, but this one was long forgotten and strange feeling the way it came back. Oddly enough, the next day when I was thinking about how weird that memory came to me the previous day I had another sudden greenhouse memory from my childhood. I remembered a greenhouse that was several houses down from my grandmother. Something I hadn't seen or thought about in 20 years, and even then was only something I saw in the distance and had no specific significance to my childhood. Yet, just saying greenhouse again brought another long forgotten memory back to me.

Similar long forgotten memories came back to me after my 2nd one month trial. And I haven't experienced anything like it since being off it either. So when I get around to it, I'm going to concentrate on a longer term trial as opposed to higher dose. Perhaps 200mg a day for at least 2 months is what I'd try. EndoAmp Max is a relatively cheap source which I might try, but it does have Alpha-GPC in it too and I've never taken that.
  • like x 1

#13 SpatialD Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:En route

Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:06 PM

Hi SpatialD,

Welcome on board :) and thanks for your input! Are you still taking the PS? I suppose I also had over average cortisol levels, though beeing a full time student again this should have solved the issue :) Probably I will give PS a try sometime, though I'm currently happy with my nootropic regime (Oxiracetam, Aniracetam, Piracetam, CDP-Choline, Modafinil when needed). I'm currently more into life extension / healthy diet / energy restriction again.
I hope you find what you are looking for and have a good time at longecity!


Thanks! Yes, I'm still taking it and have a little left before I run out. I figured out I prefer taking it before bedtime (when fogginess isn't an issue) and have been taking 2-3 Vitamin Shoppe gelcaps with food. I like it. Good dreams and good sleep in general and my recovery time seems much better when I exercise (which consists of running, mostly). I think this is related to the cortisol reducing effects, but I was really hoping to see my hypertension improve, which it hasn't. I'd like to increase the dosage, but it's expensive so there's a cost/benefit issue to consider.

...I'm going to concentrate on a longer term trial as opposed to higher dose. Perhaps 200mg a day for at least 2 months is what I'd try. EndoAmp Max is a relatively cheap source which I might try, but it does have Alpha-GPC in it too and I've never taken that.


From my novice perspective I think this is a wise approach (maybe even just 100mg/day would be worthwhile). Since my first post above I've added Piracetam and ALCAR and am still trying to figure out whether I like Sulbutiamine and how to use it (made me feel pretty amped the first time I took it; not so much now, though).

After the initial excitement and overhyped expectations I've convinced/reminded myself that with most of these substances it'll take some time to see real effects, if any. The most reputable literature and studies generally seem to support this. And really, it just makes sense. You don't pop a steroid pill and suddenly find yourself capable of lifting 5x the weight you could the day before - you still have to workout and wait for the results to manifest over time.

Bottom line: I'd take more PS if I could afford it, but I cant. Still, I think it's worth a longer term experiment to see what the cumulative benefits might be at a lower dose.

#14 What'sAllThisThen Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

Posted 16 November 2011 - 02:50 AM

I'd agree that even 100mg would produce results, as that was my main dosage during the first month I tried it. Other than a number of nights I tried 200, 300, and 400mg just to see how much more it would affect sleep/dreams.

Your improved recovery may be due to the reduced cortisol, but also increased testosterone. At least, the makers of EndoAmp Max note recovery improvements due to those two factors.

#15 chrono Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:New England

Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:34 AM

Both of my separate one month long trials ended with sudden, out-of-nowhere childhood memories. Similar to when you walk in to a room smell something, and then an old memory comes back to you. Only it was initiated by words and thoughts instead of smells. On a weekly basis I might think of random things from a long time ago, but after a month of PS usage the memories were very distant and nearly completely forgotten and they were vivid and sudden. Thinking of something from childhood is normal, but these memory spikes felt weird and boggling they were so random and distant.


I found your report incredibly interesting. First, because of the improvement in long-term recall of memories formed without the aid of enhancement, which strikes me as one of the rarest and most desirable mechanisms of a nootropic. But secondly, because of the more or less unconscious retrieval of said memories. Coincidentally, I came across some other studies last night which call this involuntary recall. For an example, this paper seems to describe your 'green house' instance pretty well:


Episodic remembering creates access to involuntary conscious memory: demonstrating involuntary recall on a voluntary recall task.
Mace JH.

The idea that involuntary memory retrieval might occur during voluntary memory retrieval can be traced back to Ebbinghaus (1885/1964). However, methodological challenges have stood in the way of testing this idea. Recent diary studies of naturally occurring involuntary memories have provided insights into how this idea could be tested (Berntsen, 1998; Mace, 2005b, 2006). These studies have shown that the contents of an involuntary memory sometimes trigger additional involuntary memories, a process called chaining. It was hypothesised that chaining should also occur on autobiographical memory tasks, and this was tested in the present study by asking participants in an autobiographical memory task to report the presence of involuntary memories while they were performing the task. The results showed that involuntary memories did occur when participants were recalling the past. The results also showed involuntary memories dissociating from voluntary memories on two independent measures, thereby enhancing the credibility of the results.

PMID: 17077027



The importance of involuntary recall may seem questionable at first, since it doesn't really help us remember stuff we're trying to remember. However, it seems like this may actually be our most frequently-used form of recall: Spontaneous autobiographical memories outnumber autobiographical memories retrieved strategically (note: autobiographical memory is also called episodic, and basically means the recall of specific events). I'd also take a stab in the dark and say that this kind of unintentional recall might be related to divergent thinking/creativity in some way. Not necessarily that relevant to this substance in general, but I thought the issue was pretty interesting.

PS is a really interesting noot, which I'm sorry to say I've read almost nothing about. It seems like one of the few 'cognitive support' noots which doesn't come with a choline molecule hooked to it, which makes it much more appealing to me. There's also a surprising number of threads here about it, though I'm not sure how many relate to nootropic use. Will definitely be doing more reading about this one.

Edited by chrono, 17 November 2011 - 06:33 AM.


#16 hamishm00 Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:United Arab Emirates

Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:23 AM

PS could improve your swing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2217563/


Background
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study was performed to evaluate the effect of oral phosphatidylserine (PS) supplementation on golf performance in healthy young golfers with handicaps of 15–40.

Methods
Perceived stress, heart rate and the quality of the ball flight was evaluated before (pre-test) and after (post-test) 42 days of 200 mg per day PS (n = 10) or placebo (n = 10) intake in the form of a nutritional bar. Subjects teed-off 20 times aiming at a green 135 meters from the tee area.

Results
PS supplementation significantly increased (p < 0.05) the number of good ball flights (mean: pre-test 8.3 ± 3.5, post-test 10.1 ± 3.0), whereas placebo intake (mean: pre-test 7.8 ± 2.4, post-test 7.9 ± 3.6) had no effect. PS supplementation showed a trend towards improving perceived stress levels during teeing-off (mean: pre-test 5.8 ± 2.0, post-test 4.0 ± 2.0, p = 0.07), whereas stress levels remained unchanged in the placebo group (mean: pre-test: 5.1 ± 2.0, post-test: 5.1 ± 3.1). Supplementation did not influence mean heart rate in either group.

Conclusion
It is concluded that six weeks of PS supplementation shows a statistically not significant tendency (p = 0.07) to improve perceived stress levels in golfers and significantly improves (p < 0.05) the number of good ball flights during tee-off which might result in improved golf scores.
  • like x 1

#17 chrono Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

  • Location:New England

Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:32 AM

haha, great paper! I love seeing study designs that aren't the same old "does this make old people and rats perform better on arbitrary cognitive measures" routine.

Edited by chrono, 17 November 2011 - 06:34 AM.


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#18 What'sAllThisThen Re: Phosphatidyl Serine

Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:04 PM

Chrono, that definitely matches what I experienced. An involuntary recall that also led to a chaining of more. Very interesting experience. I too wondered what benefit it provides other than the novelty of the experience. However, i would think if PS is making improvements in such a way as to involuntarily recall long forgotten memories it should also help voluntary recall. That's why I'd like to try another longer experiment someday and see what life benefits it may provide.

It'd be interesting to see if it could bring up long forgotten memories voluntarily. Difficult thing to do as if it's long forgotten how do you begin to search for it? For one, you could dig deeper into the memory scene once an involuntary memory comes up like I did in my greenhouse memory. When I recalled my homemade greenhouse, I began thinking about it and could see the Dixie cups, the soil and even the sprouting green leaf. I even remember that I wanted to build another one a little while later.

Another way would be to try to recall some memories now, before trying PS. Pick a topic, such as an old friend, a specific trip, etc. And just search your memory bank for as many details as possible. Then after being on PS for a couple months, try to dig deeper. Not very scientific as you've already brought up the same memories a couple months earlier and may have refreshed them some. Plus, with deeper being the only option, when you discover the deeper memories it may just be because you tried again. However, the ease and speed at which those memories come back to you may be the best indicator. A negative/neutral result may not say much either way as to the effect of PS, but if a positive result felt like my experience, you'd know.

Lastly, I'm sure we've all talked with friends and family about the past. Some things you bring up they just crook their head and look at you like you're talking about a fictional event, because they don't remember it at all. And the same thing happens to you when they bring up something you don't remember at all. If you remember a specific time this has happened to you and the event they were talking about (though not remembering the actual event), you could try to recall that after taking PS for some time. Or you could just ask them to start talking about old memories and note how much you remember and how fast and how vividly. Then a couple months later do the same, and even though you may be bringing up different memories, noting the speed and vividness should be a good indicator as to whether it helps with voluntary recall. It'd be a clear indicator if they brought up something you don't remember at all, and then try to specifically think of that after PS with success.

Of course, hopefully you'd notice an improvement in memory on a daily and useful basis. Otherwise, what's the point of bringing up old memories unless you're writing an autobiography.




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