23 replies to this topic

[iago]

Keeping this brief, I've only recently been diagnosed with ADHD (I'm mid-30s) and was using nootropics before. I'm currently on Ritalin, 10mg pills up to 3 times a day. That may change depending on my reaction. So far, it's been a little up an down. Anyway, here are a list of nootropics and supplements I have been taking. I'd like some feedback on interactions with Ritalin and other similar ADHD meds (what I should avoid, what I should continue taking etc.)


Piracetam
Aniracetam
Pramiracetam
DMAE
Citicoline
Acetyl L-Carnitine
Hydergine
Sulbutiamine


I'm not saying that I will take these as frequently, but I would like to know what is safe, what is not and what works well and what doesn't

Thanks!

[VoidPointer]

Keeping this brief, I've only recently been diagnosed with ADHD (I'm mid-30s) and was using nootropics before. I'm currently on Ritalin, 10mg pills up to 3 times a day. That may change depending on my reaction. So far, it's been a little up an down. Anyway, here are a list of nootropics and supplements I have been taking. I'd like some feedback on interactions with Ritalin and other similar ADHD meds (what I should avoid, what I should continue taking etc.)


Piracetam
Aniracetam
Pramiracetam
DMAE
Citicoline
Acetyl L-Carnitine
Hydergine
Sulbutiamine


I'm not saying that I will take these as frequently, but I would like to know what is safe, what is not and what works well and what doesn't

Thanks!

My experience with MPH is that it works best not in conjunction with caffeine(or other stims), though a a bit of green tea is ok.

Do you feel you need to add something?

A good diet and exercise are always good, cannot speak with any experience about the other supps. I guess try them one at a time and see what happens.

[Ark]

Hydergine extremly risky stuff, unless you want cycstic fibrosis......

[Ark]

Hydergine extremly risky stuff, unless you want cycstic fibrosis......

[iago]

My experience with MPH is that it works best not in conjunction with caffeine(or other stims), though a a bit of green tea is ok.

Do you feel you need to add something?

A good diet and exercise are always good, cannot speak with any experience about the other supps. I guess try them one at a time and see what happens.

Yes, I worked out the hard way that I should avoid caffeine! Bad combo. Actually, thus far, I've found exercise to be a bad combo. I make sure to exercise before taking MPH otherwise my heart won't stop pounding.

Good question about needing to add something. I was thinking particularly about Citicoline and DMAE (not together) for good neuro-health. Piracetam and others, just occasionally, maybe, if I needed something of a mental boost. No, there's no need, but I'm just thinking about the possible consequence.

@ark: I'm aware of the risks, but I believe you are overstating them. Cystic fibrosis is not a risk, however, pleural and peritoneal fibrosis are possible risks. They are seemingly remote risks at that.

[VoidPointer]

My experience with MPH is that it works best not in conjunction with caffeine(or other stims), though a a bit of green tea is ok.

Do you feel you need to add something?

A good diet and exercise are always good, cannot speak with any experience about the other supps. I guess try them one at a time and see what happens.

Yes, I worked out the hard way that I should avoid caffeine! Bad combo. Actually, thus far, I've found exercise to be a bad combo. I make sure to exercise before taking MPH otherwise my heart won't stop pounding.

Good question about needing to add something. I was thinking particularly about Citicoline and DMAE (not together) for good neuro-health. Piracetam and others, just occasionally, maybe, if I needed something of a mental boost. No, there's no need, but I'm just thinking about the possible consequence.

@ark: I'm aware of the risks, but I believe you are overstating them. Cystic fibrosis is not a risk, however, pleural and peritoneal fibrosis are possible risks. They are seemingly remote risks at that.

Sorry, I did not mean exercise while under the influence of Ritalin, I meant while not under the influence. If possible, when you feel it has worn off and are getting tired, try to do about 30-40 minutes of cardio.
The general schedule I have found that works is to take it only when you feel you need it. If you can keep it down to 4 days a week then the tolerance issues take much longer to develop.
Some prefer the IR versions, as it gives one the option of not taking a second dose if you feel you can get away with it.
Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) is more effective for inattentive ADD, but has less of an anti-depressive aspect. It works better, but you will not feel like dealing with other people or being social. Good for more complicated tasks, but it kills your appetite more than regular MPH.
I drink beet juice while taking the meds, as I feel it lowers blood pressure and heart rate.

[bdoris]

Yes, I worked out the hard way that I should avoid caffeine! Bad combo. Actually, thus far, I've found exercise to be a bad combo. I make sure to exercise before taking MPH otherwise my heart won't stop pounding.

Good question about needing to add something. I was thinking particularly about Citicoline and DMAE (not together) for good neuro-health. Piracetam and others, just occasionally, maybe, if I needed something of a mental boost. No, there's no need, but I'm just thinking about the possible consequence.

@ark: I'm aware of the risks, but I believe you are overstating them. Cystic fibrosis is not a risk, however, pleural and peritoneal fibrosis are possible risks. They are seemingly remote risks at that.

Seems to me that either you should lower the dosage of methylphenidate (Ritalin) - or maybe try a different drug.

My advice would be to halve the dosage of Methylphenidate (take 5mg thrice a day) and you should definitely add/try Piracetam (generally with a choline source such as CDP-Choline (citicoline) or Alpha GPC).

Generally ~2500mg Piracetam (3x 800mg as they come generally in 800mg caps) through the day, and take them with 5mg Ritalin.

It will help you much more against the ADHD and the side effects will be barely noticeable. Sport is good - if the drugs don't let you do sport, then obviously you have to adjust the dosage or stop taking the drug, not stop doing sport.

Sport is perhaps a bit less effective in short term, but in the long term it will help you MUCH MORE than Ritalin for your ADHD. Trust me.

Also, about your second paragraph; Ritalin is a stimulant - if you need a mental boost, Ritalin is for that, like coffee. Piracetam makes your brain work much better but doesn't give you that kind of boost you seem to imply.

Edited by bdoris, 24 May 2011 - 07:19 AM.

[iago]

Seems to me that either you should lower the dosage of methylphenidate (Ritalin) - or maybe try a different drug.

My advice would be to halve the dosage of Methylphenidate (take 5mg thrice a day) and you should definitely add/try Piracetam (generally with a choline source such as CDP-Choline (citicoline) or Alpha GPC).

Generally ~2500mg Piracetam (3x 800mg as they come generally in 800mg caps) through the day, and take them with 5mg Ritalin.

It will help you much more against the ADHD and the side effects will be barely noticeable. Sport is good - if the drugs don't let you do sport, then obviously you have to adjust the dosage or stop taking the drug, not stop doing sport.

Sport is perhaps a bit less effective in short term, but in the long term it will help you MUCH MORE than Ritalin for your ADHD. Trust me.

Also, about your second paragraph; Ritalin is a stimulant - if you need a mental boost, Ritalin is for that, like coffee. Piracetam makes your brain work much better but doesn't give you that kind of boost you seem to imply.

Thanks for your response!

I'm going to try something else. I don't even notice 5mg aside from the headache. While it's kind of effective - and really, at my age, it's a relief to have something work well like this - I don't like the side effects at all. I do quite a lot of walking to and from work (about 10 miles a day) but since starting the ritalin, I have to time my doses around it or I don't feel well.

I'm quite familiar with piracetam etc. I've been taking the citicoline, which works well with the MPH. I don't find MPH to be a mental booster per se, it just helps to quieten down the world enough that I can get on with what I'm supposed to. Piracetam helps when I'm needing some later/creative thinking, in that sense I meant it as a mental boost.

Edited by iago, 24 May 2011 - 10:30 PM.

[marbleowen]

I'd avoid dopaminergics as routing in addition to Ritalin. I didn't see LDOPA in there anywhere so I bet your good

[ocean.soul]

What about hydergine in combination with methylphenidate (ritalin)?? Is it safe??

[Tom_]

None of them are total contraindications. I wouldn't use Hydergine although its unlikely to do anything bad its not exactly the best idea known to man. Who ever said it caused cystic fibrous...its a genetic disorder, when drugs can cause you to develop autosomnol recessive disorders tell me.

I don't go a bunch of DMAE and I'd drop it simply due to lack of evidence of efficacy.

Sulbutramine is a good option although it does decrease dopamine in the PFC (up-regulating D1 receptors) so may act as a double edged sword.

The racetams are safe but if you do use them I'd recommend clinical doses of Piracetam (4.8grams BID) and forget the rest.

Citicholine is my favorite on the list.

I would discontinue all the nootropics, see how you deal with the Methlyphenidate and then consider combination treatments - like Citicholine. Then maybe Sulburtramine. I have a long post of Pharmacological interventions (and intend to write one for supplemental treatments) for ADHD, which you might want to check out. http://www.longecity...read-algorithm/

[ocean.soul]

So is not a good idea to take hydergine in order to prevent/revert brain atrophy that long use of methylphenidate causes? The doses of hydergine I take are 4.5mg in the morning (6am) and 4.5mg around 6pm.

[Tom_]

Methylphenidate doesn't cause brain damage - its neuroprotective. Dexamphetamine on the other hand and for that matter Hydergine...

[ocean.soul]

thanks for the replay tom_. What supplement could I take while on methylphenidate (10mg in the moorining and 10mg in the afternoon)? I have been taking methylphenidate for 9 months.... (Before I started with methylphenidate I took 40mg of atomoxetine for 3 months without any result and it is ridiculously expensive)
I take ALCAR (250mg), ALA (300mg), and B1, B6, B12 and magnesium, vit E, 4.5mg hydergine.
I used to take 10mg of memantine for 5 months, but I didnt really see any good result, in fact I did not perceive any change at all, so I simply stopped...

[Tom_]

I'm not sure why you are bothering with the ALA or b vits but doesn't make much difference either way.

I'm not surprised you had no response to 40mg of Atomoxetine, that is a childs dose. I can't understand the use of memantine for ADHD but again you used only half the maximum dose.

The normal maximum dose of Methylphenidate is 60mg. A dose increase is always better than polypharmacy. Increase to 10mg TID. I was on 160mg a day at one point and other than mild hypertension and a mild compulsive behavior suffered no ill effects. The only reason I wouldn't suggest upping the dose is if you are having unmanageable side effects (unlikely). In which case any dopaminergic or noradrenergic meds are off the list anyway and you should be switching to another drug. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this, increasing the dose is fine. I'm beginning to notice a theme here...worrying about/or not for what ever reason increasing the dose. One drug at a high dose in nearly all cases is better than two. Not that you will listen to me but hey ho. I'd recommend you add in bupropion. I doubt you will go for another pharm despite the fact that you know they are not going to be dangerous as apposed to untested supplements. My recommendation is Citicholine starting at a dose of 250mg and titrating to a maximum of 2000 by 250mg every 3-5 days.

[ocean.soul]

Thanks again tom! Now I want to ask you something more... It is true that aniracetam and methylphenidate is not a good combination? I would like to improve my memory (I'm taking citicoline as you recommended)

[Reformed-Redan]

Methylphenidate doesn't cause brain damage - its neuroprotective. Dexamphetamine on the other hand and for that matter Hydergine...

How does Hydergine cause brain damage? Could you please explain? Thanks.

[ocean.soul]

I think that what tom meant to say is that hydergine may be used for treating brain damage produced by deaxamphetamine.

[lourdaud]

Methylphenidate doesn't cause brain damage - its neuroprotective. Dexamphetamine on the other hand and for that matter Hydergine...

How does Hydergine cause brain damage? Could you please explain? Thanks.

Yeah, and how is methylphenidate neuroprotective? (when you're not on amphetamines)

Please stop looping, Tom_. It's getting annoying.

[Wu Hang]

my experience shows that increasing blood flow through exercises or Strong emotion would enhance the effect of the med, causing the effect to stay for longer, it reacts well with semax though it adds stress to heart, and in case of a come down, using protein shake would enhance the stimulation effect again. the combination isthereason why ihave ONLY slept 5 hours in three days and not feeling or showing tiredness at all

[ocean.soul]

you slept only 5 hours in three days???? Now, what's wrong this, uh?

[jadamgo]

Methylphenidate doesn't cause brain damage - its neuroprotective. Dexamphetamine on the other hand and for that matter Hydergine...

How does Hydergine cause brain damage? Could you please explain? Thanks.

Yeah, and how is methylphenidate neuroprotective? (when you're not on amphetamines)

Please stop looping, Tom_. It's getting annoying.

By enhancing activity of VMAT, methylphenidate significantly decreases the amount of free dopamine in the cytoplasm of the axon terminal. Free dopamine is undesirable because its degradation products include ammonium ions and free radicals. (For more on the negative effects of dopamine on dopaminergic neurons, look up DOPAC. Or just ask someone who has taken levodopa for many years for Parkinson's disease.)

By moving free dopamine into the synaptic vesicles and out into the synaptic cleft (and keeping it there), methylphenidate protects the axon against the negative effects of dopamine.

This is also how it protects against amphetamine-induced damage: it prevents dextroamphetamine-induced reversal of the VMAT.

[Wu Hang]

you slept only 5 hours in three days???? Now, what's wrong this, uh?

Wrong use of a stack contained with simple yet powerful combinations.

[hfritz]

you slept only 5 hours in three days???? Now, what's wrong this, uh?

agree