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Vitamin C Saturation


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22 replies to this topic

#1 Robert C

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:55 AM


I know this is controversial but looking at the science from the National Institute for Health it appears about 200 mg or so of vitamin C per day pretty much saturates a human body and amounts beyond this are quickly urinated out. Why would anyone want to take more? It seems to me if one took a supp with about 200 mg of vitamin C with breakfest and ate a decent amount of fruits and veggies during the day there would be little point in additional vitamin C supplementation. Any thoughts?

#2 tomakin Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Polska

Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:52 AM

I suppose this article is enough to increase your vitamin C consumption at least 10 times:

http://www.newmediae...t_all_along.htm
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#3 pycnogenol Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:In a van down by the river!

Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:15 PM

A mere 200 milligrams of vitamin C probably ain't gonna do much.

Read the book Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C by Dr. Steve Hickey & Hilary Roberts

http://www.amazon.co...09446790&sr=1-1

In the book, pay particular attention to the "Dynamic flow model."

Edited by pycnogenol, 30 June 2011 - 03:17 PM.


#4 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:46 PM

Like I said this subject is controversial! If I understand the science it seems to me there are two logical ways to approach the vitamin C issue. One method is to take gram amounts frequently throughout the day and the second method is to take around 200 mg per day. From what I understand there are three relevant half lives for vitamin C. The first is the half life of C above the renal threshold which I understand is about 30 miniutes or so. The second is the half life below the renal threshold which is a number of hours or so. The third is the half life in tissue which is a couple of weeks or so. (This last fact is why it sometimes took sailors in the past a few months on the ocean to get scurvy.)

Also from what I understand about 200 mg or so per day of C gets you to the renal threshold. If you are not satisfied with this level you obviously need to take large amounts of C frequently throughout the day to maintain elevated levels above the renal threshold due to the very short half life at this point. So I guess it boils down to how high one wants their C levels and how much work one wants to do (supplementing throughout the day).

Also, I personaly am somewhat hesitant to supplement nutrients on a long term basis at what seems to be unnatural levels. If 5 servings of fruits and veggies have around 200 mg of C I don't believe cave man evolved taking in gram amounts of C daily. Since it doesn't seem we evolved taking in this much C, I'm not sure of the risk vs. reward of the high dose C regimen. Also for me at least, high dose C irritates my stomach. I wonder how many people might have long term GI tract issues taking high dose C?

From a practical standpoint maybe some of you high dose C people could let us know how much you take and how long you have been taking it and what your results and any side effects are? I'm not discounting that there very well may be benefits to a high dose C regimen but I'm somewhat skeptical of the risk vs reward.

#5 tomakin Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Polska

Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:44 PM

Wrong on so many levels...

We are basically monkeys. We changed a little, but still we are no more, no less but monkeys.

http://cast.uark.edu...on/kmilton.html

Monkeys like us eat like 5 grams of vitamin C daily. We don't, hence all the trouble with cancer, heart diseases and so on.

There are other differences between our natural food and this trash we eat. For example, potassium - wild monkey of our size can eat as much as 20 grams of potassium. Average American is happy if he get more than 2 grams.

#6 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 01 July 2011 - 02:05 AM

What would seem more relevant to me is what our ancestors 10 to 50 thousand years ago ate. I don't see any way that modern man until the last 60 years (or whenever C became manufactured) could eat gram doses of C on a daily basis. I'm not discounting the possibility that mega dose C might have antiaging properties but it seems unnatural. Just because other mammals make their own C or eat mostly fruit does not mean that we evolved doing the same. We split from monkeys several million years ago so I don't see their needs and ours being similar.

What type of C dosage do you take and how does your stomach tolerate it?

#7 hbar Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:USA

Posted 01 July 2011 - 06:45 AM

I don't think basing C dosages on what the first humans ate is inherently sound reasoning. There seems to be an assumption that our ancestors ate these wonderful diets that contained the perfect amounts of all the nutrients we need. While I don't disagree that our modern diets are in many ways horrible, I also see no reason to automatically assume that what people ate 50,000 years ago was perfect either. I'm pretty sure the first humans who lived in non-coastal areas of Sub-Saharan Africa weren't eating cold-water fish and getting all of their omega-3 fatty acids - does that mean we should ditch fish oil? If a vitamin/mineral is shown in randomized clinical trials to show an overwhelmingly positive benefit, that's enough for me. Obviously the issue with C is whether such benefits have been proven, but for me what humans ate millennia ago wouldn't have much bearing on whether I would take a supplement or not.

Are you taking straight ascorbic acid? That would seem to me to be the most likely reason for stomach/intestinal issues. If you haven't yet, try taking a mineral ascorbate (either calcium or magnesium). The C supplement I take is this one from Bluebonnet: http://www.iherb.com...caps/10460?at=0 It seems pretty good because of the bioflavonoid composition, which supposedly increases bioavailability (and maybe half-life? not sure) of C. Still, when this bottle runs out I'm probably going to look for a similar product in a 250mg dose.

#8 tomakin Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Polska

Posted 01 July 2011 - 01:53 PM

Well, we are basically apes, and at the certain point our ancestors were FORCED to change diet. Sure, we evolved a little, i.e. we no longer can eat such amounts of fiber, still there's almost no difference between our digestive system and said system of ANY primate - gorilla, chimpz etc.

So:

1. our pre-ancestors ate 5 grams of vitamin C daily
2. there was time when they were forced to eat as little as 0,1 gram / daily
3. studies shows, that supplementation with at least 1 gram of vitamin C daily extend life by 6 years

It clearly shows, that "paleo" diet (and modern diet as well, but this is obvious) is not the best thing that happened to humanity.

I'm taking half teaspoon of vitamin C powder few times a day, and it feels GREAT. Everyone I know who startet vitamin C supplementation with such doses feels the same thing - incredible improvement in overall health.

As hbar said, ascorbates are better (completely neutral) for your stomach, I'm taking ascorbid acid as it's cheaper, I bought mine for ~10$/kg, enough for a year or so.

#9 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:09 PM

Thanks all for the input! I picked up three types of C. The first is normal ascorbic acid. The second is pure calcium ascorbate made by Bluebonnet. The third is Nature's Way Alive 100% Whole Food Complex Vitamin C. Most any type of acidy or tart supp will upset my stomach so before I use a new supp I always do a taste test. I empty a capsule into my mouth, chew a tablet, etc. If it does not taste fairly bland I won't use it.

When I tried the normal ascorbic acid I had to spit it out! I then tried the calcium ascorbate and it only had a slight bite. It was gritty with a fairly large crystal size and did not disolve fast in my mouth. Then I tried the Nature's Way product and it tasted very bland and smooth and was milled into a very fine powder that disolved almost instantly in my mouth. So far so good, I have taken a few of the Nature's Way C's with meals and no stomach issues.

The Nature's Way product is interesting. It is probably too expensive to take on a daily gram basis but it might be worthwhile for those who prefer moderate C dosages and have sensative GI tracts. The product says all the C comes from 4 different high C containing fruits. Supposidly no ascorbates added. If this is true it seems like a fruit extract standardized for C. The volume of the dose is more bulky than normal C. You must take 4 fairly bulky capsules to get 500 mg of C.

I know that C is well absorbed (in moderate doses at least) so maybe there is no need to get fancy but if the marketing is true there might also be other good-for-you things in there as well. Does anyone know about this product or has anyone used it? Below is what they advertise on the box:

"In whole foods, vitamin C is part of a total complex that includes ascorbic acid, bioflavonoids and co-factors known to aid its absorption in the body. Food-source vitamin C is also naturally buffered, so it's less acidic and gentler on the stomach. Unlike other supplements that use isolated ascorbic acid or cultured bacteria as thier source of vitamin C, Alive! 100% Whole Food Complex derives its entire vitamin C content from four of Mother Nature's most potent organic fruit sources acerola, goji, amla & kiwi."

#10 nameless Re: Vitamin C Saturation

Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:25 PM

I looked at the Nature's Way product a while ago. It could be interesting, but it too expensive for me to really consider. I also recall someone mentioning here that the tannins in such a product may actually be counterproductive, blocking some of the C absorption (no idea if that's true or not). I'm also a little afraid when it comes to multiple sources of extracts like that... not sure what extraction methods are used or what countries the extracts originate from.

I guess those who take multi-gram doses of C daily must have acid-proof stomachs or something. I wouldn't be able to tolerate it. I sometimes wonder if those who claim to 'feel great' on multi-gram doses may have excess copper, since high levels of C can lower copper in the body

For myself, I just take a half-tablet of Ester-C daily (250mg) and get the rest from either a multi or the foods I eat. It's inexpensive and easy on my belly.

Edited by nameless, 01 July 2011 - 09:25 PM.


#11 rwac Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Dimension X
  • yes

Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:45 PM

I guess those who take multi-gram doses of C daily must have acid-proof stomachs or something. I wouldn't be able to tolerate it.


Or they take liposomal vit C. It also increases serum vit c higher and for longer periods.

#12 nameless Re: Vitamin C Saturation

Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:31 PM


I guess those who take multi-gram doses of C daily must have acid-proof stomachs or something. I wouldn't be able to tolerate it.


Or they take liposomal vit C. It also increases serum vit c higher and for longer periods.


Yeah, I forgot about liposomal.

Happen to know of any studies using this form? A liposomal C study using dosing based on serum levels could be interesting and presumably easier for participants to take.

Can liposomal C result in higher serum levels than is possible using regular ascorbic acid? Or is it a matter of simply liposomal C being equal to several times the amount of regular C?

I read one manufacturer claiming 8g of ascorbic = 1g liposomal. Just wondering if liposomal raised serum levels even higher than 8g of ascorbic would, since 8g of ascorbic can't all be absorbed at one time.

#13 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:39 PM

Nameless, I thought the Ester C's came only in a capsule. You get them in a tablet that you can break? Also, could you taste a bit of one and see if they taste tart? Another thing that upsets my stomach is the citrus bioflavinoids that manufacturers love to add. It's hard to find a brand of buffered C that does not add them.

#14 nameless Re: Vitamin C Saturation

Posted 01 July 2011 - 11:03 PM

Nameless, I thought the Ester C's came only in a capsule. You get them in a tablet that you can break? Also, could you taste a bit of one and see if they taste tart? Another thing that upsets my stomach is the citrus bioflavinoids that manufacturers love to add. It's hard to find a brand of buffered C that does not add them.


They may be slightly tart, but I'm not exactly chewing them or anything. Keep in mind a tablet has fillers too, so the fillers probably mask some of the tartness on my tongue.

But I can say they are certainly easier on my belly than ascorbic acid is.

And yeah, Ester C comes in capsules and tablets. Check out iHerb, they have like 20 varieties of Ester C there. Costco sells them too -- 500mg, 300 tablets.

#15 rwac Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Dimension X
  • yes

Posted 01 July 2011 - 11:10 PM

Happen to know of any studies using this form? A liposomal C study using dosing based on serum levels could be interesting and presumably easier for participants to take.

Can liposomal C result in higher serum levels than is possible using regular ascorbic acid? Or is it a matter of simply liposomal C being equal to several times the amount of regular C?

I read one manufacturer claiming 8g of ascorbic = 1g liposomal. Just wondering if liposomal raised serum levels even higher than 8g of ascorbic would, since 8g of ascorbic can't all be absorbed at one time.


Yes, I believe liposomal C can send serum levels as high 400 µM/L at 36g of lipo-c.

http://www.canceract...somal vit C.pdf

#16 tomakin Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Polska

Posted 02 July 2011 - 03:20 PM

There's a recipe to make homemade liposomal vitamin C

http://www.pdazzler.com/archives/62

not sure if it makes sense, tho. Prices of the original liposomal vitamins are erm... very high, to say least.

#17 moleface Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:United States

Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:38 AM

What does everyone think about Ester-C's claim that it has four times the bioavailability of ascorbic acid? I found a bottle of 60 500 mg tablets at the grocery store on clearance for only $4 and decided to try it.

Since it's not acidic, I've been breaking the tablets in half and taking them sublingually. I have a bad wound on my arm that's in the process of healing and I'm trying to precipitate collagen formation. I already was taking 10000 mg a day of regular ascorbic acid for rheumatoid arthritis... I was thinking of reducing my ascorbic acid intake to 6000mg and working in two 500 mg Ester-C tablets a day - which is apparently the equivalent of 4000 mg of normal ascorbic acid?

#18 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 04 July 2011 - 12:20 PM

I'm not an expert on this subject but from what I've read no form of Vitamin C has been well documented to absorb better than others. Google "vitamin C Linus Pauling Institue". They discuss this issue. It seems to me that all the various forms of C absorb well (at least in smaller doses).

#19 hav Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Cape Cod
  • no

Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:30 PM

I had what I think was an allergic reaction to mega doses of vitamin C a while back. I had been taking a teaspoon of C crystals a day, about 4000 units, mixed into a glass of orange juice for a number of years. During those years I very rarely ever caught a cold. But I guess at some point I did come down with something and reacted by going a little overboard taking it 2 or 3 times a day. After about 6 months of that I started developing rashes on my stomach and chest accompanied by what felt like needles and pins on my lower scalp above my neck line. Soon as I stopped the C, it went away. And reappeared if I took as little as 500 mg. So for about 10 years I cut way back on C, occasionally taking 500 mg and putting up with the reaction only if I was fighting off a cold or something. In the past year I noticed the rashes abated so I resumed taking 500 mg regularly every day. I've been up to 1000 mg a day with no ill effects for about a month now. I'm thinking my previous bad experience was from taking too much at once. And that I might be able to eventually get back to 2000 mg a day if I split it up into 2 or 4 smaller doses spread throughout the day.

Howard

#20 Robert C Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 05 July 2011 - 09:17 PM

I wonder if it could have had something to do with copper deficiency? Too much C can limit copper in your body.

#21 Jehyst Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Australia

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:10 AM

Hi!

I have adrenal fatigue, leaky gut, candida, thyroid probelms and FMS, and I have always been told to take vitamin c. I came across this the other day and wondered what you all thought about it: http://www.docrobert...bromyalgia.aspx

Cheers :)

#22 Kevnzworld Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:04 AM

The conclusions reached in the quoted article ( http://www.docrobert...bromyalgia.aspx) regarding vitamin C and FMS was refuted in the following letter from that American Physiological Society.
Quote: " In light of the results of our study (4), the studies of Yfanti and colleagues (14, 15) and earlier studies (6, 11, 12), we conclude that there is no evidence that antioxidant vitamins interfere with the adaptive responses to endurance exercise training."
http://ajpendo.physi.../302/4/E478.ful
The subject remains controversial .
I take 500mg of a mixed mineral buffered ascorbate four times a day.

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#23 Jehyst Re: Vitamin C Saturation

  • Location:Australia

Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:22 AM

Thanks for this :) I will continue taking it then, as it does make me feel better (almost instantaneously). I thought I had better ask as fatigue is not something I need more of!




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