32 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

I started nootropics to get a hold on my mental performance and ultimately my life. I have ADHD along with a slight memory problem, trouble sleeping at times, and a sensitivity to stress. So far, I've had considerable improvement in sleep, stress, and memory with little improvement in the ADHD in terms of getting work at home done. My room is still a mess, my laundry isn't done, and I have an inbox of about a dozen emails of job leads I need to apply to. Everyday I make little to no progress. Fortunately, I can remember I have to do it... just still got that mental wall.

Recently, I've noticed that my body has been hormone crazy. I've had a small outbreak in acne the past few days, which has subsided down to one little pimple on my upper lip. Other than that, my skin looks beautiful and plump, haha the best part. My sex drive has changed... not sure how to explain it... I'm less easily aroused but more horny? But the part that concerns me is that my nipples hurt and are budding again like they did when I was 15.

I think it is the Tyrosine, because it is a thyroid stimulant. Funny, it's also in a lot of breast enhancement products for that reason. I started taking it as a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine. It does something for motivation and concentration, but not as much as I'd like. I figure, the more I take, the more concentration I'll have. This is not so much the case, but what does help is the frequency at which I take it.

I'm not convinced it is necesarrily one thing, because it could be an accumulation of effects in combination or over time.

Please help me figure out what is causing this shift, and I'll update you on any changes.

Morning - 6:30am:

• 1/2 Multi-Vitamin (contains some herbs, but not much)
• Soy Lecithin Granules - 7.5g
• Co-Q10 - 100mg
• Magnesium (Oxide) - 250mg
• Green Tea Extract - 337.5mg, 135mg EGCG
• Picamilon - 50mg
• Huperzine (1%) - 10mg
• DMAA - 25mg
• Hordenine (freebase) - 50mg, sometimes more
• **DL-Phenylalanine - 500mg
• **Bacopa (20%) - 150mg
• **Choline Bitartrate - 1/2 TSP
• **L-Tyrosine - 1/2 TSP (600mg about)
• **Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 400mg (w/ 200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid)
• **Fish Oil - 1000mg (180mg EPA, 120mg DHA)
• **Oxymetazoline - 3 Pumps in ea. Nostril (A1, A2, B3 Adrenergic Agonist)

**Before my order of Tyrosine came in 3 days ago, I was taking DL-Phenylalnine instead during the day. I haven't noticed an increase in irritability, so I've been taking 500mg doses. This is when the bulk of changes began. This is the time where my order of Choline Bitartrate and Bacopa (20%) came in. Same day I bought the Fish Oil and Oxymetazoline. Last week I ran out of Acetyl Carnitine at home, but still have some at during the day.

Morning - 7:30am:

• Coffee/Caffeine - 10oz of Diluted Coffee or 100mg pill if I'm in a rush

10am and 2pm:

• **L-Tyrosine/DL-Phenylalanine - 600mg/500mg
• **Bacopa (20%) - 150mg
• **Choline Bitartrate - 1/2 TSP
• Picamilon - 50mg
• Huperzine (1%) - 10mg
• DMAA - 25mg
• Hordenine (freebase) - 50mg, sometimes more
• Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 400mg (w/ 200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid)

Get Home - 6:30pm:

• 1/2 Multi-Vitamin (contains some herbs, but not much)
• Picamilon - 50mg
• Huperzine (1%) - 10mg
• DMAA - 25mg
• Hordenine (freebase) - 50mg, sometimes more
• **Bacopa (20%) - 150mg
• **Choline Bitartrate - 1/2 TSP
• **L-Tyrosine - 1/2 TSP (600mg about)
• **Acetyl-L-Carnitine - 400mg (w/ 200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid)
• **Oxymetazoline - 3 Pumps in ea. Nostril (A1, A2, B3 Adrenergic Agonist)

Bed Time - 10pm:

• Soy Lecithin Granules - 7.5g
• Magnesium (Oxide) - 500mg
• Picamilon - 150mg
• Huperzine (1%) - 30mg
• **Bacopa (20%) - 150mg

Though I will try to appreciate extra advice with what I am taking, I am much more concerned on why I'm budding again. A 2nd puberty is sorta weird at 24 or any age (right?). I'm definitely taking it to my doctor once I get one. I'm wondering if this is normal for some or even possibly a hormone disorder... but I'm pretty sure it's something I'm taking. Maybe I stumbled across the fountain of youth... but maybe I am just growing moobies...

[aaron43]

Just a few things:
I wouldn't put this on l-tyrosine, the doses that your taking are on par with generic vitamin store dosing which is about 500mg a capsule. This is the very low end of l-tyrosine, but when not tolerant to tyrosine (because tolerance does develop a little), the low end can still be effective.

"My room is still a mess, my laundry isn't done, and I have an inbox of about a dozen emails of job leads I need to apply to. Everyday I make little to no progress. Fortunately, I can remember I have to do it... just still got that mental wall."

I was really into nootropics and I was experiencing this same thing. It wasn't before I noticed I was relying to much on nootropics to get the job done for me, instead of relying on will power. It like a wall, its hard to get over, but once you get over its nice. Morning routines help. If it's not something fun to do or doesn't interest you, no matter what, it's going to be hard to get yourself motivated to accomplish it. Thats why its necessary to defeat that wall with will power. Nootropics can't get the ball moving, but they can grease the runway.

To be honest, you don't need all your taking. Your taking a lot, some of them their subjectivity to use as a nootropic is questionable. And you taking tyrosine/Phenylalanine (like uppers) but then following it with bacopa and picamillion (like downers), which would theoretically cancel out the benefits of each other.

I know your pretty health conscious from the posts that youv'e been posting, worried about side/health effects of untested products. Creating a mash of supplements would make sense logically, but in the body it doesn't work like that. Lab test for safety of supplements test that supplement's health effects as if it were the only supplement that the person was taking at the time. When combining supplements, you are going into uncharted waters and into anecdotal evidence instead of laboratory proven evidence. When injesting many supplements, what are the reactions that happen in the body? For example lets say one of those supplements blocked some sort of dopamine transport enzyme that was part of the noortopic benefit of one of those supplements. When taken alone, this would have no ill effect. But when taken with other supplements, that maybe boost dopamine levels, or have something to do with dopamine, and if that previous enzyme is blocked, tho untested, no one can actually be sure of the consequences of tweaking a system and expecting to work at optimal levels when the body is formulated to work in balance.

From looking at your stack, I can't really pinpoint exactly what it would be, and if anyone can on hear, that would be impressive. But don't forget exercise, you could be overlooking the aspect of inactivity leads to fatty tissue build up. And that aging causes a slowing of metabolism. And even the possibility that it could a supplement lowering the body's metabolism.

Personally, I'm not trying to push anything, but Iv had the best results from keeping it simple with methylene blue + alcar. Ive literally experienced everything that troubles you, I tried to find it thru a multitude of supplements, but have found that keeping it simple works best. And for best results, I sincerely feel that provigil + MB + alcar is the hands down most effective in learning and applying.

[The Immortalist]

Lol just weight lift, that will increase your testosterone and make your chest look better. You could also take clomid. You could also just get surgery.

[niner]

Oxymetazoline - 3 Pumps in ea. Nostril (A1, A2, B3 Adrenergic Agonist)

Whoa. Are you addicted to this? If you take it regularly, you probably are. Do you consider it nootropic, or is it just to help you breathe?

As far as the moobies go, Aaron is right- you are taking a lot of stuff. I couldn't say what's doing it.

[Delta Gamma]

Lethicin could contain a bunch of saturated fats depending on the brands, huperzine A pretty much cuts the breaks on growth hormone release. So those are my first guesses as to what could be causing it assuming it is directly related to your stack. Saturated fat+growth hormone+all other dietary needs met= hey lets churn out a load of steroid hormones.

Thyroid function would have to relate to this in a really complicated manner for increased breast development to occur without all sorts of other effects like reduced energy and focus. Which judging by how productive you've been on this site isn't the case.

Also, if what you mentioned about your skin being "plump" its probably due to increased GH and/or estrogen related compounds.

/endocrine rant.

[thedevinroy]

Whoa. Are you addicted to this? If you take it regularly, you probably are. Do you consider it nootropic, or is it just to help you breathe?

I don't think I'm addicted... just started it 3 days ago. I suppose I could be addicted eventually, but probably not right now. I started taking it because it was one of the easiest Alpha 2 agonists to get. It does on work on focus in sort of a tunnel-vision way, but I wouldn't say it is wonderful in any way except for what it is supposed to be used for - clearing the nose. If it is addictive, I can certainly shelve it for when I need it, like during allergy season.

As far as the moobies go, Aaron is right- you are taking a lot of stuff. I couldn't say what's doing it.

Right... that's the thing. They all seem harmless, but something ain't right. I'm trying to find a good synergy, but like Aaron said, this is in no way a scientifically proven way to do things.

[The Human Meteorite]

If I were you I would try to cut all your dosages down to maybe 3/4 and cut out the lecithin (phytoestrogens in soy blah blah) and see if that helps. The only thing in your stack that seems suspicious to me is the d-phenylalanine, as I'm sure you're aware enatiomers of amino acids often act in completely different manners, and sometimes in dangerous ways.

[dupez]

anything that affects GH or hormones in general can possibly promote moobies. and it can be tough to determine with your whole stack what is causing changes. I agree with the other posters, cut down on this stuff. You can't go wrong with ALCAR, choline and a good multi vitamin. You could also try an estrogen blocker if it gets serious.. Definitely cut the soy out of your diet for now.

[Blue22]

Devin,

I created an account to warn you immediately. YOU NEED TO GET ON AN ANTI-ESTROGEN AND STOP ALL SOY PRODUCTS RIGHT NOW!!!!

You can cause irreversible damage to your body with high estrogen like that. See an endocrinologist immediately and STOP ALL SOY!!!! They will most likely prescribe evista or tamoxifen. The longer you wait the more permanent the damage will be.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

[Raptor87]

How long have you sensed these issues?

You should overlook how you liver is effected by the supplements! Have you checked your blood- values?

So far, I've had considerable improvement in sleep, stress, and memory with little improvement in the ADHD in terms of getting work at home done. My room is still a mess, my laundry isn't done, and I have an inbox of about a dozen emails of job leads I need to apply to. Everyday I make little to no progress. Fortunately, I can remember I have to do it... just still got that mental wall.

How about exercise, walking, working out!? Is it the same there, could you do more?

A few zits here and there doesn't count as hormonal change! Besides our hormones decline after 21-23 years of age. Im 28 and still have outbursts! I blame DHT- testosterone.

Do any of the the drugs have a diuretic side- effect? Cause that can cause titty- changes!

[thedevinroy]

Trying to find a synergy is not scientific, and that's why it intrigues me. I just hate wasting stuff. I do plan on cutting back a lot of stuff when I run out.

I was taking downers with uppers because I found that a little bit of anxiolytics prevent overstimulation. Otherwise I get restlessness, sometimes a headache, and rarely twitching or jittering (if I take too much by accident).

I exercise on the weekends, but I have no idea what weekly energy exertion prevents moobies. Most men don't grow female breasts even if they only hike a mountain or swim a lake once a week. What I'm trying to say is that I don't understand how fatty tissue build up will make my nipples grow a sore lump (1 per nip) above it. This is called breast budding (temporary teenage gynecomastia) and happens to about 5% of boys and goes away. Not something that should happen to a 24 year old, or so I read.

As far as the soy lecithin... yeah maybe 15g is a lot of GMO lecithin product on a daily basis. I got a bin of the non-GMO stuff now, so I'll be switching to that soon. It's just weird that this breast budding started recently and not when I started taking lecithin. Otherwise I would have know what it was. Also it's not THAT high in saturated fats as one would expect...1g per 7.5g. There's more saturated fat in a candy bar than two servings of lecithin. There are some isoflavones (phytoestrogens) in soy products, but lecithin only has trace amounts. Phytoestrogens effects on human males are inconclusive at best regardless.

The tyrosine was new, as is the bacopa, fish oil, oxymetazoline, and choline. I was really hoping for an answer that included these as either estrogen-promoting on their own or via interaction with previous supplements. For instance, the multivitamin with iodine could create an interaction with L-Tyrosine, resulting in more thyroid hormones. Also, Bacopa has beta-sitosterol which is a growth-promoting phytosterol used to regenerate hair... this may interact with increased thyroid activity along with the release of mutated phytoestrogens that were trapped in phospohliids in my arteries from constant GMO lecithin use, but the fish oil thinned the fat in my arteries and released them into my nipples. Obviously, I just made that up. I just wanted to give an example.

My nipples stopped hurting today as the day went on. What I'ma do is not take the Tyrosine tomorrow and see how it goes.

Edited by devinthayer, 09 July 2011 - 04:46 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Devin,

I created an account to warn you immediately. YOU NEED TO GET ON AN ANTI-ESTROGEN AND STOP ALL SOY PRODUCTS RIGHT NOW!!!!

You can cause irreversible damage to your body with high estrogen like that. See an endocrinologist immediately and STOP ALL SOY!!!! They will most likely prescribe evista or tamoxifen. The longer you wait the more permanent the damage will be.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

I will see a doctor soon. I'm gathering referrals from around the family, so I should have a primary care physician within the month.

Do you know how much phytoestrogen content GNC soy lecithin has?

[thedevinroy]

How long have you sensed these issues?

You should overlook how you liver is effected by the supplements! Have you checked your blood- values?

So far, I've had considerable improvement in sleep, stress, and memory with little improvement in the ADHD in terms of getting work at home done. My room is still a mess, my laundry isn't done, and I have an inbox of about a dozen emails of job leads I need to apply to. Everyday I make little to no progress. Fortunately, I can remember I have to do it... just still got that mental wall.

How about exercise, walking, working out!? Is it the same there, could you do more?

A few zits here and there doesn't count as hormonal change! Besides our hormones decline after 21-23 years of age. Im 28 and still have outbursts! I blame DHT- testosterone.

Do any of the the drugs have a diuretic side- effect? Cause that can cause titty- changes!

Interesting. I found this article: http://www.wisegeek....breast-pain.htm

Seems to fall in line with what you are saying. It's interesting that it mentions a diet in unsaturated fats can cause a fatty liver. I'm wondering if that's a typo or if there are some truths in that. Regardless, my diet isn't high in fat at all - even with the lecithin and fish oil. I had some chicken thighs with lunch, cream cheese with breakfast, and a little butter on my green beans tonight.

Diuretics off that list ... pretty much everything? The bacopa gives me some serious gas - not sure what that's all about. Also recently I have been eating a lot of frozen spinach... but that's more fiber and iron. Magnesium is a diuretic. Coffee is a diuretic. I can't think of anything that's NOT for sure a diuretic...

Edited by devinthayer, 09 July 2011 - 05:24 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa does have thyroid stimulating effects, increasing T4 in male mice at 200mg/kg by 41%. I know I never took more than 150mg, but I was also taking phenylalanine (tyrosine precursor), tyrosine, and iodine which are used in making T4 (Thyroxine). Not sure if that has anything to do with it, but it sure does sound it to me.

Also interesting is that Oxymetazoline should not be used with an overactive thyroid or increased thyroid hormones... wonder why that is... could it be? It also shouldn't be used with testosterone supplements.

Edited by devinthayer, 09 July 2011 - 05:40 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

(Duplicate Deleted)

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 July 2011 - 06:09 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

(duplicate post deleted, Site slowed down and I was mashing the submit button -- Doh!)

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 July 2011 - 06:10 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

Maybe the alpha(2)-adrenoceptors receptor agonists are making your boobs grow? Wow. Wait till the cosmetic surgery crowd figures this one out.

Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 2006 Jul;58(1):50-61. Epub 2005 Nov 15.
Human breast cell lines exhibit functional alpha2-adrenoceptors.
Vázquez SM, Mladovan AG, Pérez C, Bruzzone A, Baldi A, Lüthy IA.
Source
Instituto de Biología y Medicina Experimental, Obligado 2490, C1428ADN, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Abstract
Adrenergic compounds (epinephrine and norepinephrine) are the most important hormones released during stress. Several different receptors are associated with their action in different tissues. However, alpha(2)-adrenoceptors have not yet been described in either normal or tumour human breast tissue. The aim of this work was to describe and characterize these receptors in several tumour and non-tumour human cell lines. The expression of alpha(2)-adrenoceptors was analyzed at the RNA (RT-PCR) and protein ([(3)H]-rauwolscine binding and immunocytochemistry) levels in different human breast cell lines, and the biological activity assessed by [(3)H]-thymidine incorporation. The cancer IBH-6, IBH-7 and MCF-7 and the non-tumour HBL-100 cells line, expressed both alpha(2B)- and alpha(2C)-adrenoceptor-subtypes. A single subtype was expressed in malignant HS-578T (alpha(2A)) and MDA-MB-231 and non-tumour MCF-10A cells (alpha(2B)). All cell lines exhibited significant binding for the specific antagonist [(3)H]-rauwolscine. The alpha-, alpha(2)-, and the alpha(1)-compounds with known affinity for alpha(2)-adrenoceptors, including epinephrine, norepinephrine, yohimbine, clonidine, rauwolscine and prazosin, competed significantly with binding in MCF-7 cells. In addition, IBH-6, IBH-7 and MCF-7 cells showed significant staining with specific antibodies against alpha(2B)- and alpha(2C)-adrenoceptor-subtypes, when tested by immunocytochemistry. In all cell lines, the specific agonist clonidine or oxymetazoline stimulated [(3)H]-thymidine incorporation. EC(50) values were in the range of 20-50 fM for IBH-6, IBH-7, and HS-578T; 0.14 pM for MCF-7; 2-82 pM for HBL-100 and MCF-10A cells, and a biphasic behaviour with a maximum value at 38.0 pM, was observed for MDA-MB-231 cells. The specific alpha(2)-adrenergic antagonist rauwolscine always reversed this stimulation at 0.1 nM. In conclusion, this study describes for the first time, the presence of alpha(2)-adrenoceptors in human epithelial breast cell lines. Moreover, activation of these receptors was associated with an enhancement of cell proliferation.

PMID: 16292538 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 July 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[Raptor87]

Devin,

I created an account to warn you immediately. YOU NEED TO GET ON AN ANTI-ESTROGEN AND STOP ALL SOY PRODUCTS RIGHT NOW!!!!

You can cause irreversible damage to your body with high estrogen like that. See an endocrinologist immediately and STOP ALL SOY!!!! They will most likely prescribe evista or tamoxifen. The longer you wait the more permanent the damage will be.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Hmm, interesting! I googled these..
http://www.longevity...de-effects.html
http://foodallergies.../soyallergy.htm

And also..
http://www.personalh...de_effects.html

Do you have a reliable source that claims that soy- lecithin is dangerous?

[Blue22]

Hey Brain,

I would really like to post a reference to a scientific journal or something similar but i don't have that. The isoflavones in soy can trigger estrogen receptors. There is a marketing site isoflavones.info that I recommend you stay away from in terms of reliable info. I will look when I have some time. I am definitely not insistent that it is soy. I am taking a gamble that is the most likely cause and for his health I highly reccomend Devin to stop until he gets a medical opinion.

Devin,

Weather or not soy is the cause isn't the problem. Gynecomastia is caused by higher levels of estrogen than normal. I cannot be sure what is causing it (although I would guess the soy). You need to see a doctor for it though. An endocrinologist would be best. The longer you let it sit the worse it will get.

A doctor is your best option. There are NUMEROUS causes of gyno. You and your doctor can work out whats best for you!

[thedevinroy]

If someone can prove to me that GNC's soy granules increase estrogen activity in males by more than 1% I'll stop taking it. I doubt that even GMO soy lecithin has an isoflavone content over a tenth of a percent, usually a hundredth of a percent (10mg per 100g). Some sources claim it has none. I don't know who to believe without a study done on the isoflavone content of various products (or an average thereof).

Update on today. This morning I have no tenderness behind the nipples. Today I did not take the tyrosine or the oxymetazoline. After reading the post AL made on oxymetazoline, I knew I did the right thing. If I was going to take a stab at the culprit, it would be that was the butterfly that broke Jack's tree fort.

[Logan]

It has to have something to do with genetics, right? I would start a heavy weight training program, making sure you do a fairly heavy squat routine once a week. Squats and lunges are exercises that best promote testosterone production. I don't think there's nothing wrong with heavy resistance training, and, I don't think it's going to shorten your life span.

I also do not believe soy lecithin causes the same issues that soy protein does. I'm not even sure there are any soy isoflavones in lecithin. I would avoid all soy protein sources and consider making some dietary changes.

[thedevinroy]

It has to have something to do with genetics, right? I would start a heavy weight training program, making sure you do a fairly heavy squat routine once a week. Squats and lunges are exercises that best promote testosterone production. I don't think there's nothing wrong with heavy resistance training, and, I don't think it's going to shorten your life span.

I also do not believe soy lecithin causes the same issues that soy protein does. I'm not even sure there are any soy isoflavones in lecithin. I would avoid all soy protein sources and consider making some dietary changes.

I have gigantic thighs for my size. The bulk is 95% muscle. When I work my legs, they get so bulky I can't fit into half my pants. It pinches my thighs when I walk. So I usually don't do a whole lot of heavy leg exercises other than hiking, which is more endurance training. I suppose I should just do my laundry twice as often...

[abelard lindsay]

Update on today. This morning I have no tenderness behind the nipples. Today I did not take the tyrosine or the oxymetazoline. After reading the post AL made on oxymetazoline, I knew I did the right thing. If I was going to take a stab at the culprit, it would be that was the butterfly that broke Jack's tree fort.

Happy to be of help . The study I referenced would likely have sat ignored for decades, especially since it was done outside the U.S, and the boob growth/oxymetazoline connection would never have been re-discovered here on Imminst if it weren't for your little nasal spray mis-adventure .

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 July 2011 - 07:20 PM.

[against_all_odds]

Devin,

I created an account to warn you immediately. YOU NEED TO GET ON AN ANTI-ESTROGEN AND STOP ALL SOY PRODUCTS RIGHT NOW!!!!

You can cause irreversible damage to your body with high estrogen like that. See an endocrinologist immediately and STOP ALL SOY!!!! They will most likely prescribe evista or tamoxifen. The longer you wait the more permanent the damage will be.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Are you serious? Soy is always the one to blame when something goes wrong, isn't it?

I have taken 7.5 grams of bluebonnet non-gmo lecithin for months at a time. 15 grams of lecithin is pushing it.

I eat soy products daily , all organic. Estradiol levels tested multiple times, all OK. Anti-soy propaganda on the internet is exaggerated.

[thedevinroy]

Update on today. This morning I have no tenderness behind the nipples. Today I did not take the tyrosine or the oxymetazoline. After reading the post AL made on oxymetazoline, I knew I did the right thing. If I was going to take a stab at the culprit, it would be that was the butterfly that broke Jack's tree fort.

Happy to be of help . The study I referenced would likely have sat ignored for decades, especially since it was done outside the U.S, and the boob growth/oxymetazoline connection would never have been re-discovered here on Imminst if it weren't for your little nasal spray mis-adventure .

Haha cell proliferation in breasts from induced thyridine production is a pretty hard-to-ignore effect, even in vitro. There was another study done on alpha adrenergic agonism and thyroid activity... http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2857513 And this study here : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6127082 confirms the alpha 1 receptor activation ups thyroid stimulating hormone. Oxymetazoline stimulates Alpha 1 and Alpha 2, but more of the latter. Oxymetazoline stimulates growth hormone in rats: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8666024 . It is suspected that this is due to its Alpha 2A agonism (like guanfacine, watch out ADHDers for a little GH).

Edited by devinthayer, 10 July 2011 - 01:12 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Devin,

I created an account to warn you immediately. YOU NEED TO GET ON AN ANTI-ESTROGEN AND STOP ALL SOY PRODUCTS RIGHT NOW!!!!

You can cause irreversible damage to your body with high estrogen like that. See an endocrinologist immediately and STOP ALL SOY!!!! They will most likely prescribe evista or tamoxifen. The longer you wait the more permanent the damage will be.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Are you serious? Soy is always the one to blame when something goes wrong, isn't it?

I have taken 7.5 grams of bluebonnet non-gmo lecithin for months at a time. 15 grams of lecithin is pushing it.

I eat soy products daily , all organic. Estradiol levels tested multiple times, all OK. Anti-soy propaganda on the internet is exaggerated.

I mean the only thing is that I'm taking the GMO stuff most likely. Shouldn't cause too much catastrophe as from what I read, the isoflavone (phytoestrogen) content is negligible in lecithin. It's just sorta weird knowing your food has been tampered with to make it grow faster and with less pestilence. There is probably a reason why the bugs don't eat it...

Edited by devinthayer, 10 July 2011 - 12:57 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Update: Took some tyrosine and my multivitamin again just to make sure. Didn't take it with Bacopa or Oxymetazoline. Nothing in the nipple region at all.

I should just save Bacopa for night time. It will make it last longer, and I'm not gonna puke from the taste like I almost do taking it in the morning when my stomach is a little weaker. I'm sure Bacopa would taste good if it was in a tea, but straight extract is hideous. It's like sucking on a green tea bag. Reminds me of Gotu Kola burps.

Edited by devinthayer, 10 July 2011 - 01:20 AM.

[Logan]

It has to have something to do with genetics, right? I would start a heavy weight training program, making sure you do a fairly heavy squat routine once a week. Squats and lunges are exercises that best promote testosterone production. I don't think there's nothing wrong with heavy resistance training, and, I don't think it's going to shorten your life span.

I also do not believe soy lecithin causes the same issues that soy protein does. I'm not even sure there are any soy isoflavones in lecithin. I would avoid all soy protein sources and consider making some dietary changes.

I have gigantic thighs for my size. The bulk is 95% muscle. When I work my legs, they get so bulky I can't fit into half my pants. It pinches my thighs when I walk. So I usually don't do a whole lot of heavy leg exercises other than hiking, which is more endurance training. I suppose I should just do my laundry twice as often...

Just do lighter weight and high reps, you should still get a testosterone boost without really gaining much muscle. I think weight training in general is a good idea, focusing on all body parts, especially your chest.

[aaron43]

I have gigantic thighs for my size. The bulk is 95% muscle. When I work my legs, they get so bulky I can't fit into half my pants. It pinches my thighs when I walk.

I can picture will ferrell saying this

[Mind_Paralysis]

Pardon the necro-posting here, but I feel that it MUST be done.

Devinthayer, you mention that alpha-2-agonists may have caused your breast-cells to grow, possibly because of racing estrogen -levels - but is that truly what happened? So far, I haven't seen anyone mention anything like demasculinization as a side-effect.

And what I can find regarding the growth-data of children taking Guanfacine, it seems like their growth is more or less normal compared to the healthy control-group. There appears to be weight-gain, yes, since it enhances appetite, HOWEVER... this effect is often mitigated by concomitant stimulant-use, which does result in chronic appetite-loss.

 

So, are you certain any increased levels of growth-hormone while on Alpha-2-agonists aren't caused by simple appetite-increase? And are you even certain that it's alpha-2-agonists that can cause this? So far, the study you referenced mentioned an alpha-ONE agonist, not an alpha-2.

 

Yeah, they say it's suspected to be caused by the Alpha-2 -effect, but the only recorded possible effect is of an Alpha-1-agonist, as well as a COMBINED Alpha-1 and Alpha-2 -agonist, not a pure Alpha-2-agonist in itself.

I don't know... I'm not convinced that Guanfacine increases estrogen or testosterone -levels. The evidence is pretty thin to me.

 

Any thoughts from those more knowledgeable of this?