19 replies to this topic

[hippocampus]

Few years ago I was taking St. John's Wort (capsules) and after few weeks I felt great. After two months I stopped taking it (and my mood went to "normal") and then started taking it again - but it no longer worked. The same happened when I first started taking Rhodiola Rosea - I felt great, I stopped taking it, I took it again - but it didn't work anymore. I also heard that when people stop taking an SSRI and then begin to take it again they usually need a higher dose to get the same effect or they switch to another AD. Why does this happen?

[Logan]

Nobody really knows. Just take a good antidepressant-zoloft or lexapro-and if it works stay on it and don't fuck with it. Life's short, at least it is for right.

[hippocampus]

well, i don't need antidepressants anymore, i'm just interested why is that so.

[MrHappy]

St John's wort is a MAO-I.

[MrHappy]

(to clarify).. It's an antidepressant and you've developed a tolerance.

[hippocampus]

ok, but Rhodiola Rosea is also MAOI (AFAIK) - so why is there NO cross-tolerance? what kind of tolerance is it? i think it has something to do with liver enzymes, that's why i'm using milk thistle now and then I will try Rhodiola again.

[MrHappy]

Milk thistle (silymarin) is a mao-i also

[MrHappy]

Tolerance - basically the amount of receptors attached to your neurons has decreased to balance up your excess of monoamines. Drug-free holiday for quite a while is about the only safe option. If you keep increasing the dose, eventually it'll overload other areas in unexpected ways. Look at dyskinesia on parkinsons's patients on dopamine replacement therapy.

[hippocampus]

more info about milk thistle as MAOI, please

i tried with higher doses of rhodiola - in the begining i needed 1-2 capsule to get the effects, but after discointinuation I tried with up to 6 capsules with no difference at all, so I don't think this is the case. Also, SSRI antidepressant effects aren't due to changes in serotonin regulation, it's something with BDNF regulation.

also: https://www.thieme-c...55/s-2001-15512 and http://jop.sagepub.c...t/15/1/47.short
It seems that St. John's wort isn't MAOI.

and I didn't find anything about rhodiola's mechanism of action.

I haven't been taking rhodiola for over a year or more, so tolerance should wear off. i also haven't used st. john's wort for over two years. so, milk thistle should have antidepressant effect on me if it's MAOI, I'll see in a week or two.

there are two types of tolerance: metabolic and functional. I think here metabolic is the case - because there was no cross-tolerance between rhodiola and st. john's wort and because both of them didn't work after discontinuation.

edit: I forgot to mention that I also took low dose of amitriptyline for about a month two years ago which also did work but haven't used it since.

Edited by hippocampus, 20 September 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[MrHappy]

http://www.erowid.or...ask.php?ID=3140

Too much conflicting info on google. Seems it is a maoi, but mild. Has other antidepressive effects.

[MrHappy]

Oops silymarin, too: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/9810264/

Can't find much on it. Maybe I was wrong!

[nupi]

Tolerance - basically the amount of receptors attached to your neurons has decreased to balance up your excess of monoamines. Drug-free holiday for quite a while is about the only safe option. If you keep increasing the dose, eventually it'll overload other areas in unexpected ways. Look at dyskinesia on parkinsons's patients on dopamine replacement therapy.

How is that related to the question he asked? Basically, it stopped working AFTER the holiday. Exactly the opposite than what you are suggesting.

I agree, if you are on a working antidepressant (for me, Wellbutrin has been doing pretty good things overall for the past few months, except for a really rough period where it was not really powerful enough - it worked, but only if I made a conscious attempt to block out the negative thoughts which yielded an almost immediate and failrly noticeable mood uplift), do not yield to the temptation get off it unless the side effects are really impacting your life (that seems like more of a risk with the SSRI and Effexor rather than Wellbutrin, which quite simply does not seem to have any true side effects on me).

[MrHappy]

Nope, still sounds like tolerance. Try a longer drug holiday. As for not getting off SSRI's, why the heck not? Most SSRI's are indicated for short term usage only and get wrongly prescribed for long term use with no thoughts about addiction/tolerance. Benzos in particular - some nasty stuff.

What's wrong with feeling normal?

[hippocampus]

Benzos are not SSRIs.
Of course it's tolerance, but there are different types of tolerance and I think that in my case this is systemic tolerance (metabolism), not functional (receptors and stuff). You can reverse functional tolerance if you stay off the drug long enough, but I don't know if it's the same with systemic.

[MrHappy]

I know - I was really talking about neuroleptics and antidepressants in general. Just blowing steam, I guess.

[nupi]

how did you get from antidepressants to benzos? They are not even remotely related ... . possibly the only link between the two is that both are prescribed mainly for psychological issues but that's it.


As for feeling "normal" for some that is a pretty miserable state.

Edited by nupi, 24 September 2011 - 01:06 PM.

[MrHappy]

Yeah, thats all I was talking/ranting about. I know someone that was put on antidepressants and then neuroleptics to treat depression and anxiety. For years. By 4 different doctors.

Turned out to be Parkinson's disease and the drugs were exacerbating the symptoms as well.

Now they have to deal with PD and the withdrawal symptoms, which is.. Hard.

[Thorsten3]

Brand is pretty crucial with SJW and Rhodiola... The brands I buy from my local health store will give me great results at first but then they become hit or miss. I know that with Rhodiola in particular it has been known to work one day and then strangely have zero effects the day after for users. But then, Rhodiola is a herb that is taken for health and to normalize the stress response. If it no longer has an effect you could argue it has done its job?

In terms of efficiacy with these herbs the only thing I could suggest is to go by anecdotals and stick with stuff that you know works for other people.

New Chapter do good brands of both (as well as holy basil if that's your flavour).

Perika, Serofin, Kira, SC27 and HBC are the most well known SJW brands so stick to them if you can. You can try unknown brands but they will be hit or miss.

It may have been tolerance coming into play or it may have been shite brands or it may just have been the frustrating mysteriousness that exists with rhodiola.

Edited by Thorsten2, 25 September 2011 - 12:50 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

From what I understood the main mechanism of SJW was upregulatiokn of serotonin receptors. Some people 'round here were able to take SJW for a long period of time and then get off it while maintaining antidepressive effect. Rhodiola is known to wear off after a few weeks and needs to be cycled. However, it's strange for someone to stop taking it just once and then never having it work again.

[Thorsten3]

I think SJW interacts with cortisol but differently to Rhodiola. Rhodiola seems to normalize the stress response whereas SJW is more of a tricky one to handle. It can make you feel very good or very bad. IIRC I saw studies showing that it increased cortisol in lower dosages (not necessarily a bad thing) and reduces it in higher dosages.

I think people should be wary of self medicating even with these herbs. Although Rhodiola would be the more benign of the two because it works with your body in a normalizing fashion.

I think SJW does upregulate certain 5HT receptors if I am not mistaken. People on bluelight are known to take it for a couple of weeks after their last MDMA experience and it apparantly helps resensitize the experience for them and restores the depth of their rolls (where tolerance would normally be becoming an issue).