32 replies to this topic

[lc11]

I have taken several medications (prescription, nootropic, and supplements) over the past years to help fight depression and get me to be motivated like I was before my brothers death. I'm 27 years old, workout 5 times a week and have a healthy BMI. The medications/supplements I've taken and length of time taken are listed below:
Wellbutrin (1 year, stopped because of dizziness and memory loss)
Piracetam (7 months, stopped because no differences noticed after the first 3 months)
St John's wart (2 months, stopped because no difference noticed)
SAMe (2 months, stopped because no difference noticed)
Rhodiola (1 month, stopped because no difference noticed except headaches)
Fish Oil (4+ years, still take it)
Magnesium (1+ year, still take it 4x a week)

I was sick over a month ago and the doctor prescribed vicodin to help with some of the pain. After I felt better, I still had a few vicodin left over and I started taking them once a day. It was unquestionably the best I've felt since my brother died. I was relaxed (obvious), happy and focused with work and completed about 3 times as much work each day as I usually would. Even my boss noticed a radical difference in my mood, behavior and work output. Then after I ran out of the prescription, things went back down (way down) to normal again.

I've been trying to find ANY supplement that will give the same results but doesn't require a prescription, is safe and legal. I saw Kratom and Kanna mentioned, and I'm leaning more towards Kratom at this point. From what I understand its preferable not to take it daily due to possible addictiveness. That is the only downside I've read about. I also read a little on Kanna and saw it can be toxic in too large of a dose but is also effective as an anti-depressant and anti-anxiety.

Does anyone have thoughts or experiences with either of these 2 supplements? Are there other supplements recommended for this that I should look into?

[abelard lindsay]

I had a great time on Vicodin back when I had a prescription after surgery. Was insanely productive while I was taking it. However, the stuff fucks with your hormones massively though if you take it for too long, meaning hypogonadism and all the awful things that come with that (depression, man boobs, infertility, no muscles). Same with any u-opioid receptor agonist (e.g morphine, heroin). Stay far away!

As for mood stuff. You might try working on your dopamine instead of your serotonin, since St. Johns Wort and other serotonin improving herbs haven't worked for you. Have you tried supplementing with L-Phenylalanine or Tyrosine?

[AbolishtheState]

I have done some experimentation with kratom. In low doses it is mildly euphoric and energizing; in medium doses it can be either stimulating or relaxing, but is still euphoric and is also rather anxiolytic; in high doses it is intoxicating and hypnotic. I like a low dose in the morning to make the whole work day enjoyable, and a medium dose in the evening to get shit done while winding down for the night. For me, it definitely produced a "body buzz" similar to the traditional opiods in medium or higher doses--that is, feels amazing, but itchy. Also like traditional opiods, it acts on opoid receptors (primarily delta and mu) and has the potential to cause tolerance and addiction (though not nearly as strongly as the opiates and synthetic derivatives). I have not tried it since beginning a nootropic regimen, and I am interested to find out if any synergy exists. A few helpful, informative kratom websites can be found linked below.

http://www.sagewisdo...ratomguide.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom

[canz]

Kratom looks promising. Where can you get it, and is it legal in the US?

[sam7777]

I believe I read it as having a quasi legality standing...er you cannot get it on iherb/amazon etc. But that makes it no diff than provagil, depreynl, some of the other racetams etc... however you wont find it at those vendors either, it has its own vendors, which makes me even more sketchy on getting it. I think kanna is a little easier to come by, but its best to go the same route as kratom.

Truthfully, I have heard little on kanna use. I think it builds tolerance extremely fast. You could experiment for yourself.

I strongly strongly urge, if not already doing it, for you to take about 100 to 200 mg of initial release AND extended release of 5-htp at about 9 pm every night. You need to be alseep by 10 pm for sure for it to metabolize properly. Your body should use it to synthesize serotonin around 3:30 am in sleep to about 5 a.m. and you would wake up considerably energized.

I believe it has some sort of downstream effect on opioid and noradrenaline/adrenaline production. I am surprised vicoden worked so well, but then again some people have said before that it made them wired. It is pretty hardcore pharma stuff sadly.

Kratom I have heard is a SERIOUS risk for addiction, and the stories I heard were pretty scary. However, they may not be the full truth on the matter. I would urge you to be very very cautious and on the watch for signs of addiction.

I am actually looking into essential oils myself, odd as that sounds. I have heard they can work. I am hoping for some frankincense oil and gum resin to do something, but who knows.

[lc11]

While about to purchase Kratom in one web browser tab, in the other tab I was still searching for information and saw it is listed as a chemical with possible complications of "coma" listed here. Has anyone read anything else like this that equates it to a poison??

[nito]

Isen't Kratom used for anxiety? Anyways i have got random stomach butterflies for no reason whatsoever, it hits anytime, watching tv, eating food, playing computer games. Wonder if kratom can do anything for it.

[unregistered_user]

sam7777: Any particular brand of 5-htp you would recommend? What have you personally tried? I've been looking into this but wasn't sure if it was contraindicated with any supplements I'm currently taking (piracetam, fish oil, deprenyl, green tea extract, l-phenylalanine).

[icecold]

Isen't Kratom used for anxiety? Anyways i have got random stomach butterflies for no reason whatsoever, it hits anytime, watching tv, eating food, playing computer games. Wonder if kratom can do anything for it.

i think you are thinking about kava. kava is used for anxiety while kratom is used for its opiate like qualities. it's not a smart long term drug to take because of the addiction. any drug that acts on the opiate receptors might kill your anxiety now but in the long term you are just gonna make it worse.

[JacobHess]

I believe I read it as having a quasi legality standing...er you cannot get it on iherb/amazon etc. But that makes it no diff than provagil, depreynl, some of the other racetams etc... however you wont find it at those vendors either, it has its own vendors, which makes me even more sketchy on getting it. I think kanna is a little easier to come by, but its best to go the same route as kratom.

I get my kratom from amazon.com, (can we talk about specific vendors here? I use one consistently and could recommend) it arrives in an amazon.com package, very discrete.

I have used ground kratom leaf in the recommended 6-8g range and the effects are strong, markedly opioid. Heavy crash that, in some peolpe, will result in daily binge use until supply is gone. Use caution with this one.
I am only recently attempting to try kratom as a nootropic rather than a "get high" drug and the results are promising
The past two days I have used a one gram dose twice daily, and I feel some stimulation, a good mood, desire to do work, etc. but not the euphoric opiate high.
I don't know how long this can last! because opiates are notoriously tolerance and addiction forming.

[thedevinroy]

I've tried Kanna 25x extract in brownies. It was... a sort of stoned/mellow effect. Also, it gave me a headache. The grogginess lasted all day, but the "low" was only for 2-4 hours.

[sam7777]

Nature's way 60 tablets is what I use. The capsules or XR do not seem to work as well.

[Doghouse1]

kratom totally works!! It even works better than vicoden it all depends on your dosage tho. If you take too little it winds up feeling like you just drank coffe. Check out where to get kratom I just got the kratom mix they had on the the 1st page its only 9$ an oz which is like a weeks worth for me. I just take a tablespoon of kratom powder an dump it in my yogurt and in 20 mins I can feel it come on.

[eon]

Lots of old info. in here. I've just recently been looking into Kratom for pain relief. I have opioids but want to take a more natural route like Kratom. I heard it works. While it was never mentioned being a nootropic, its properties seem to act like a nootropic as much as it is a pain killer. I can't decide which strain to get though:

 

1 - Bali

 

2 - Maeng Da

 

3 - Red Vein Indo/Sumatra

 

4 - Super Green Malaysian

 

http://www.kratomcapsules.com/

 

This may be personal choice then? The cheapest is Bali. Should I try that first?

 

I'd prefer a capsule form because I'd know the dosage and to control how much to take. I know some people prefer the leaf or powder form. Maybe the negatives or addictive properties occur when people don't have self control or people didn't use a gram scale? I don't get it yet why Kratom is addicting, does it make you feel TOO good? Does it work on the dopamine?

 

I've seen Kratom soaps here:

 

http://www.moodandmi...=kratom&x=7&y=3

 

There was no reviews of it but the description stated it is an excellent expoliator. Hopefully this can remove the skin tag off my back. LOL.

Edited by eon, 19 December 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Werper]

I would recommend to order from http://www.buykratom.us/.     Try the variety pack ( they give you a 1/2 ounce of each type ).   I have been told to stay away from the extracts.  

[eon]

are the capsule form extracts? how do you prepare these in "packs" as teas? I'd prefer something I can swallow like a pill and take with me so I'm probably not looking for something to make in a tea. Do you chew these leaves in the pack or are they powdered you mix in with water?

 

which strain do you prefer?

 

I would recommend to order from http://www.buykratom.us/.     Try the variety pack ( they give you a 1/2 ounce of each type ).   I have been told to stay away from the extracts.  

 

Edited by eon, 21 December 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Werper]

It comes in a fine powder.   I just weigh out 3.5 grams ( to start out you might just want to try 1 gram and go from there) and wash it down with a fruit drink.  It's not the most pleasant experience but I've had worst.   I have heard making it in a  tea is not the way to go as the heat can damage the opioids.  I think white borneo might be the best bang for the buck but it depends on what you are looking to get out of it.   The maeng da is the top of the line and most expensive but that doesn't necessarily mean you will enjoy it more than some of the others.  That's why you just have to try each one and see what personally works for you ( and maybe none of them will)  As with any opioid,  tolerance is always an issue so take heed.    I haven't ordered this yet but I am thinking of getting some to offset the tolerance factor -http://www.kratomdragon.com/index.html.  Anyways good luck.

[eon]

i'm trying to avoid amphetamines as my "dopaminergic" source (aka my motivational source). I could think of some racetams (phenotropil) working being dopaminergics. What are some other options, hopefully natural sources? Chaenomeles Speciosa (Flowering Quince) comes to mind. Could Kratom (mytragina speciosa) be dopaminergic? Let's take a look below considering it acts on the opioid receptor.

 

"Kratom behaves as a μ-opioid receptor agonist like morphine" - Wiki

 

"Any endogenous or exogenous chemical substance that acts to affect dopamine receptors or dopamine release through indirect actions (for example, on neurons that synapse onto neurons that release dopamine or express dopamine receptors) can also be said to have dopaminergic effects, two prominent examples being opioids, which enhance dopamine release indirectly in the reward pathways, and some substituted amphetamines, which enhance dopamine release directly by binding to and inhibiting VMAT2." Wiki on dopaminergic

[johnjuanb1]

Kratom must hit dopemine receptors. It gives me such an uplifting feeling of energy, motivation, and empathy towards others. The kratom strain Maeng Da is extremely energizing. The strains Red Thai, Bali, and Super Indo alleviate anxiety, reduce pain, and give an overall feeling of inner peace. I like to combine Maeng Da with one of the other stains to get a feeling of incredible self confidence and motivation.

[johnjuanb1]

Lots of old info. in here. I've just recently been looking into Kratom for pain relief. I have opioids but want to take a more natural route like Kratom. I heard it works. While it was never mentioned being a nootropic, its properties seem to act like a nootropic as much as it is a pain killer. I can't decide which strain to get though:

1 - Bali

2 - Maeng Da

3 - Red Vein Indo/Sumatra

4 - Super Green Malaysian

http://www.kratomcapsules.com/

This may be personal choice then? The cheapest is Bali. Should I try that first?

I'd prefer a capsule form because I'd know the dosage and to control how much to take. I know some people prefer the leaf or powder form. Maybe the negatives or addictive properties occur when people don't have self control or people didn't use a gram scale? I don't get it yet why Kratom is addicting, does it make you feel TOO good? Does it work on the dopamine?

I've seen Kratom soaps here:

http://www.moodandmi...=kratom&x=7&y=3

There was no reviews of it but the description stated it is an excellent expoliator. Hopefully this can remove the skin tag off my back. LOL.

The best kratom strain for pain relief is Red Thai. Go to undergroundsupps.com
They sell farm grade Red Thai, meaning it's right off the tree, fresh and potent. Red Thai is relaxing and somewhat euphoric, very powerful. Mix it with maeng Da for energy if you need pain relief during the day time when you have work to do. In the evening, Red Thai is perfect on it's own.

[eon]

Which form do you prefer? I'd prefer the capsuled form for convenience. Curious if you take those bulk form where you have to use a gram scale, do you simply swallow the Kratom or make it into tea? I would think the hot water would destroy the alkaloids?

[smccomas01]

I purchase kratom in bulk from https://shop.bikhuk.us/I then capsule it. I tried taking it straight it did not go well I almost threw up. 

[johnjuanb1]

Which form do you prefer? I'd prefer the capsuled form for convenience. Curious if you take those bulk form where you have to use a gram scale, do you simply swallow the Kratom or make it into tea? I would think the hot water would destroy the alkaloids?

I have a 2 gram scooper to measure the powder. I simply put the powder in my mouth and swig grapefruit juice to swallow it. Grapefruit juice acts as a potentiator making it more effective.
I have heard hot water doesn't harm the kratom alkyloids. I haven't tried it personally though.

[johnjuanb1]

I purchase kratom in bulk from https://shop.bikhuk.us/I then capsule it. I tried taking it straight it did not go well I almost threw up.

Hahaha I have very weak taste buds so it just tastes like bitter tea leave to me.

[eon]

Kratom actually comes in "powder" form? I thought it was more "herbal" form aka green leafy looking things? Is it micro ground so it looks powdered? It doesn't look like tea leaves in tea bags does it?

[smccomas01]

Depending on where you go you can get it powdered or not. 

[Lamirp]

More than 1 gram of extract 15 x Kratom Bali did not do anything to me. No effect. Why?

[Flex]

Regarding Kanna, I´ve found this

Pharmacological actions of the South African medicinal and functional food plant Sceletium tortuosum and its principal alkaloids

http://www.sciencedi...378874111005113

 

More than 1 gram of extract 15 x Kratom Bali did not do anything to me. No effect. Why?

 

I guess that extracts are sometimes weaker.

At least I got that felling, because when I´ve tried Salvia divinorum and Kava Kava extracts, they were weaker then the crude herbs.

I would try a potent sort like dunno.. Bali & etc.

 

 

[eon]

I think I read from someone extracts are unreliable. Not sure if the Kanna product called Zembrin is an extract. Anyone tried Zembrin?

[johnjuanb1]

Just took 1 gram of kanna with my kratom. My kratom dose is very high. Let's see what happens.