47 replies to this topic

[APBT]

Marathons In the Long Run Not Heart Healthy

http://www.msma.org/...ri_Medicine.pdf

[Darryl]

Better sources:

 

O'Keefe, J. H., Patil, H. R., Lavie, C. J., Magalski, A., Vogel, R. A., & McCullough, P. A. (2012, June). Potential adverse cardiovascular effects from excessive endurance exercise. In Mayo Clinic Proceedings (Vol. 87, No. 6, pp. 587-595). Elsevier.

O'Keefe, J. H., & Lavie, C. J. (2013). Run for your life… at a comfortable speed and not too far. Heart, 99(8), 516-519.

Zaidi, A., & Sharma, S. (2013). Exercise and heart disease: from athletes and arrhythmias to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and congenital heart disease.Future cardiology, 9(1), 119-136.

 

There's no question regular exercise is among the very best things one can do for longevity. AMPK activation and collateral cardiac vascularization definitely reduce risks, but over-exercise can lead to ventricular hypertrophy and arrythmias, so the benefits for all-cause mortality reduction appear to top-out under 20 km running per week though. Diet is at least as important, and complementary in achieving cardiovascular risk reduction. We can't outrun bacon and donuts.

[Raptor87]

Runners death. True or Myth? I believe that underlying medical problems is the cause. Keep in mind that dehydration, overheating etc is a big issue in sports.. 

 

Sylvester is known for using HRT and was caught with HGH which he went to trial for. 

[TheFountain]

How healthy is short bursts of high intensity sprints (20-30 seconds)?

[niner]

How healthy is short bursts of high intensity sprints (20-30 seconds)?

 

Very, as long as you aren't doing them all day long.

[TheFountain]

 

How healthy is short bursts of high intensity sprints (20-30 seconds)?

 

Very, as long as you aren't doing them all day long.

 

I've been doing them like 15 minutes twice a week. 

 

I have not heard many reports of people dropping due to sprinting. So that seems good.

 

Although I do tend to feel a drop in blood pressure with a little light headedness afterwards. IS it normal?

[niner]

The light headedness afterwords might be a blood sugar issue, or possibly iron.  It's probably not a drop in bp, since your heart is probably pumping like crazy.   High Intensity Interval training has been shown to produce good effects with as little as three twenty second bursts.  Depending on how much you're resting between bursts, 15 minutes might be more than you need.  I try to do HIIT three times a week.  I suppose daily would be even better, since my HIIT workout is the bare minimum- 20 seconds of max output three times in a row.   I'm trying to get the most good for the least expenditure of time.  If I make it to the gym three times a week I feel like I'm doing ok.

[TheFountain]

The light headedness afterwords might be a blood sugar issue, or possibly iron.  It's probably not a drop in bp, since your heart is probably pumping like crazy.   High Intensity Interval training has been shown to produce good effects with as little as three twenty second bursts.  Depending on how much you're resting between bursts, 15 minutes might be more than you need.  I try to do HIIT three times a week.  I suppose daily would be even better, since my HIIT workout is the bare minimum- 20 seconds of max output three times in a row.   I'm trying to get the most good for the least expenditure of time.  If I make it to the gym three times a week I feel like I'm doing ok.

From what Mark Sisson tells us this kind of cardio should not be necessary more than once a week, amidst weight training.

 

Also, wouldn't too much be catabolic to muscle growth? 

[niner]

 

 High Intensity Interval training has been shown to produce good effects with as little as three twenty second bursts.  Depending on how much you're resting between bursts, 15 minutes might be more than you need.  I try to do HIIT three times a week.  I suppose daily would be even better, since my HIIT workout is the bare minimum- 20 seconds of max output three times in a row.   I'm trying to get the most good for the least expenditure of time.  If I make it to the gym three times a week I feel like I'm doing ok.

From what Mark Sisson tells us this kind of cardio should not be necessary more than once a week, amidst weight training.

Also, wouldn't too much be catabolic to muscle growth? 

 

A total of one minute of high output is enough for a week?  That doesn't seen right.  That seems like something you could do every day.  I really don't see how it could be catabolic- it's just not that many kcals...

[mustardseed41]

I ride the statonary bike twice a week. 2 minutes light/easy, 20 second burst, 2 minutes light/easy, 20 second burst, 2 minutes light/easy, 20 second burst.....cool down.

 

Once a week I do sprints the same way.

 

3 minutes of High Intensity for the week. No time excuses for anyone.

 

Also twice a week weights/bodyweight work-outs.

 

To me it's just right. I keep the motor humming without burning it out.

Edited by mustardseed41, 28 May 2014 - 02:19 AM.

[scottknl]

I've heard that tissue damage in the wall of the heart theory before and I believe it to be true.  Micah True was a good example of this.  Here's his story.

 

www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/sports/caballo-blancos-last-run-the-micah-true-story.html

(I hope the link survives without getting stripped out.  Search www.nytimes.com for the micah true story.)

 

 It's convinced me to reduce the number of 1/2 marathons I run to 2 or 3 each year.  My time to complete appears to be stable and is the same as it was during my 20's.   I've taken the advice of well meaning CRON friends and limited my total mileage to about 20 - 25 km each week and provide time for any minor tears in my heart tissue to heal prior to running again (hopefully).  

 

In my mind many people compensate for poor dietary habits with excessive exercise behavior.  The downside is "Jim Fixx like" calcium deposits in the coronary arteries along with thickened heart walls like Micah True.  

 

Next month will be 5 years of CRON diet for me and I feel pretty good.  My running performance is steady and solid with no detectable deterioration.  As long as I hydrate properly, my recovery time is really quite minimal with no undue soreness the next day. After my last 1/2 marathon, 2 weeks ago, I ran again 2 days later for 4 miles with no drama at all.   I save my sprint training for when I'm late for the bus!!  During off days I do pushups and/or weight training.  When the weather gets too cold for running, I switch to rowing on an indoor ergometer.  It's not as good as running, but helps to preserve some of the cardio for next year's running season.

[TheFountain]

 

 

 High Intensity Interval training has been shown to produce good effects with as little as three twenty second bursts.  Depending on how much you're resting between bursts, 15 minutes might be more than you need.  I try to do HIIT three times a week.  I suppose daily would be even better, since my HIIT workout is the bare minimum- 20 seconds of max output three times in a row.   I'm trying to get the most good for the least expenditure of time.  If I make it to the gym three times a week I feel like I'm doing ok.

From what Mark Sisson tells us this kind of cardio should not be necessary more than once a week, amidst weight training.

Also, wouldn't too much be catabolic to muscle growth? 

 

A total of one minute of high output is enough for a week?  That doesn't seen right.  That seems like something you could do every day.  I really don't see how it could be catabolic- it's just not that many kcals...

 

No, I meant the theoretical 10-15 minutes of sprinting bursts. 

 

He theorizes that this is how our ancestors lived. Rest/hunt/kill prey with bursts of speed and power, then days of leisure. 

[mindpatch]

Don't marathoners have a habit of dropping dead due to heart attacks in the course of their everyday lives, other than on the track?

No.  No, marathoners do not have a habit of dropping dead.  If you think about the general population and the percentage of that population of varying ages and stages of health, the incidence of heart attacks amongst active, healthy runners and athletes is extremely low.

 

Middle aged to elderly people in poor physical health with a predisposition to heart disease have a habit of dropping dead due to heart attacks while sitting in chairs. 

 

There are a lot of assumptions and misrepresentations in this thread about endurance athletes.  Statistically, a much bigger problem among runners is the degenerative conditions that happen to lower extremity joints from years of running.  Otherwise, the human body is remarkably adaptable.  Being a marathon runner is not just the domain of elite professional athletes, and the long term remodeling of the heart and cardiovascular system to endurance exercise have measurable cardioprotective benefits. 

[mindpatch]

 

 

 

 High Intensity Interval training has been shown to produce good effects with as little as three twenty second bursts.  Depending on how much you're resting between bursts, 15 minutes might be more than you need.  I try to do HIIT three times a week.  I suppose daily would be even better, since my HIIT workout is the bare minimum- 20 seconds of max output three times in a row.   I'm trying to get the most good for the least expenditure of time.  If I make it to the gym three times a week I feel like I'm doing ok.

From what Mark Sisson tells us this kind of cardio should not be necessary more than once a week, amidst weight training.

Also, wouldn't too much be catabolic to muscle growth? 

 

A total of one minute of high output is enough for a week?  That doesn't seen right.  That seems like something you could do every day.  I really don't see how it could be catabolic- it's just not that many kcals...

 

No, I meant the theoretical 10-15 minutes of sprinting bursts. 

 

He theorizes that this is how our ancestors lived. Rest/hunt/kill prey with bursts of speed and power, then days of leisure. 

 

Our ancestors had a life expectancy of about 20.  Just because our hunter/gatherer ancestors engaged in a certain physical behavior doesn't necessarily mean that our bodies are evolutionarily optimized for that and only that physical activity.  Our ancestors were also nomadic and traveled great distances without the benefit of motorized transporation..i.e. they walked.  They walked a lot, and walked carrying lots of stuff. 

[niner]

 

Don't marathoners have a habit of dropping dead due to heart attacks in the course of their everyday lives, other than on the track?

No.  No, marathoners do not have a habit of dropping dead.  If you think about the general population and the percentage of that population of varying ages and stages of health, the incidence of heart attacks amongst active, healthy runners and athletes is extremely low.

 

Middle aged to elderly people in poor physical health with a predisposition to heart disease have a habit of dropping dead due to heart attacks while sitting in chairs. 

 

There are a lot of assumptions and misrepresentations in this thread about endurance athletes.  Statistically, a much bigger problem among runners is the degenerative conditions that happen to lower extremity joints from years of running.  Otherwise, the human body is remarkably adaptable.  Being a marathon runner is not just the domain of elite professional athletes, and the long term remodeling of the heart and cardiovascular system to endurance exercise have measurable cardioprotective benefits. 

 

 

You may want to take a look at this, which contains three papers on this topic.  Also, here is a collection of papers dealing with atrial fibrillation in endurance athletes.

 

Our ancestors had a life expectancy of about 20.  Just because our hunter/gatherer ancestors engaged in a certain physical behavior doesn't necessarily mean that our bodies are evolutionarily optimized for that and only that physical activity.  Our ancestors were also nomadic and traveled great distances without the benefit of motorized transporation..i.e. they walked.  They walked a lot, and walked carrying lots of stuff. 

 

 

What's your source for that life expectancy?  It sounds like it is life expectancy at birth, which is essentially irrelevant to our concerns.  If our ancestors survived childhood, I think their life expectancy is significantly more than 20.

[fntms]

I am now worried that my stringent exercise routine (weights 3x, hiit 2x week in the form of muay thai training) might have contributed to the "slight" hypertrophy of my left ventricle (detected when I was having very annoying but non dangerous heart "bumps" or pvcs).
I know there are a few supplements that can help reduce the ventricular hypertrophy,...
At least my BP is now much lower than before (120 vs up to 150 when measured by the doc, lower at home) , thanks to my current regimen (not sure what helps the most) : 100mg pycnogenol, 12.5mg astaxanthin, lots of mag glycinate, sulbutiamine (seems to reduce the pvcs a lot, for some reason), also regular blood letting and less red meat.

[TheFountain]

Our ancestors had a life expectancy of about 20.  

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, mostly due to the ancient hostile environment they occupied. No protection from the elements and such. Not because of Sprinting once or twice a week and resting a lot in between. 

[niner]

 

Our ancestors had a life expectancy of about 20.  

Yes, mostly due to the ancient hostile environment they occupied. No protection from the elements and such. Not because of Sprinting once or twice a week and resting a lot in between. 

 

Mostly due to infant mortality, making this particular unreferenced life expectancy number irrelevant to us.