2844 replies to this topic

[MrHappy]

Here's the conflicting paper. Not all oil-soluble vitamins benefit from triglycerides -
http://m.ajcn.nutrit.../77/6/1478.full

This would appear to be because 'oils ain't oils' and some lipids are metabolised differently -
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/12964802/

[RJ100]

For the past 3 days I've orally taken 50mg of Uridine (triacetyluridine), 450mg DHA and a B multi in the morning with eggs. The result has be significant brain fog.

Yesterday I got in my car to go home for lunch, found myself driving the wrong way, turned around and drove home only to remember that I'd brought lunch to work that morning.. Not exactly the effect I was hoping for.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had this experience and what it might indicate.

Other sups I take are 600mg NAC with 1g Vit C twice daily, a D/Cal/K multi with lunch and a zinc/copper sup with dinner.

I'm going to take it again now and see if it happens again.

[Phiaq]

For the past 3 days I've orally taken 50mg of Uridine (triacetyluridine), 450mg DHA and a B multi in the morning with eggs. The result has be significant brain fog.

Yesterday I got in my car to go home for lunch, found myself driving the wrong way, turned around and drove home only to remember that I'd brought lunch to work that morning.. Not exactly the effect I was hoping for.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had this experience and what it might indicate.

Other sups I take are 600mg NAC with 1g Vit C twice daily, a D/Cal/K multi with lunch and a zinc/copper sup with dinner.

I'm going to take it again now and see if it happens again.

You started off with 50mg TAU which seems a lot to me. Remember that TAU is more bioavailable than UMP so you need around 10 times less according to the posts in this thread so far.

I plan on starting with 50-100mg UMP daily, combined with a b-50 complex, magnesium, vitamin c, fish oil and bee pollen.

[noopeptisgood]

Are you guys forgetting choline? I've been taking citicoline which has significantly reduced brain fog so far.

[Phiaq]

Are you guys forgetting choline? I've been taking citicoline which has significantly reduced brain fog so far.

yeah and that too ofcourse, I'm going to start off with phosphatidylcholine 1-2g and slowly increase to 4g

[RJ100]

You started off with 50mg TAU which seems a lot to me.

Mr Happy said that 100mg TAU was a lot, and went down to 75mg - I took it down even further to 50mg.

I took 25mg 30mins ago, so we'll see.

Are you guys forgetting choline?

Didn't forget it. I get a lot of it in my diet, already. Also, it was stated somewhere within these 50 pages that holding off on choline for the first week or so was a good idea.

[Raza]

If you experience brain fog, adding choline would be my first recommendation though. Your forgetfulness is the kind that, when I experience it, is effectively treated with cholinergics.

[RJ100]

Hmm. Is the reason it's suggested to take a cholinergic with this stack to clear uridine induced brain fog? That's not what I remember reading here.

I don't have brain fog otherwise.

[Raza]

No, it's because uridine will increase choline used towards phosphatidylcholine, an important brain building block.

But if you don't supplement choline, this may well mean that less of the choline you do have is going towards acetylcholine than before you started uridine, which could theoretically contribute to forgetfulness from low acetylcholine.

It's far from certain, but since supplementing choline is a good idea anyway, it's the first thing I'd try.

Edited by Raza, 05 October 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[MrHappy]

For people especially looking for a mood lift, I'd recommend introducing choline after 2 weeks, in case you don't react well to choline.

Brain fog from uridine can mean too much, or it could indicate that you are an over-methylator.

I would also normally recommend washing out from all other noots/drugs for a week before testing a new protocol.

[RJ100]

Uridine is causing me significant brain fog, even at 25mg TAU. Yesterday afternoon at a meeting I felt like I was watching everything remotely or from behind glass. Taking part in and tracking conversations was difficult, overall cognitive awareness diminished.

Regarding choline - according to Wikipedia a hardboiled egg has 113mg of choline and I eat 4 of them daily, and since Monday this is when I've taken uridine. Is dietary choline different than the sup?

I don't really have a protocol to stop. As far as other drugs, everything else I take (besides NAC) is just a vitamin/mineral. I'm hesitant to halt NAC because my quality of life without it is terrible.

I've heard over-methylation mentioned around here but honestly I don't know what it is.

Anyway I appreciate the input from you guys - thanks.

Edited by RJ100, 05 October 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[noopeptisgood]

What's NAC?

Anyway, I've never been able to noticeably raise acetylcholine levels through normal dietary choline consumption. But with Alpha GPC and citicoline I totally have. I think it's because Alpha GPC is a parasympathomimetic acetylcholine precursor and citicoline is an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline, which increases the amount of choline available for acetylcholine synthesis and aid in rebuilding membrane phospholipid stores after depletion. [Wikipedia]

Trying out some Alpha GPC would be pretty cheap.

I'm skeptical that we can all attain such fantastic effects as Mr Happy has. Who else has felt the magic from uridine?

Edited by noopeptisgood, 05 October 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[stablemind]

What's NAC?

Anyway, I've never been able to noticeably raise acetylcholine levels through normal dietary choline consumption. But with Alpha GPC and citicoline I totally have. I think it's because Alpha GPC is a parasympathomimetic acetylcholine precursor and citicoline is an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline, which increases the amount of choline available for acetylcholine synthesis and aid in rebuilding membrane phospholipid stores after depletion. [Wikipedia]

Trying out some Alpha GPC would be pretty cheap.

I'm skeptical that we can all attain such fantastic effects as Mr Happy has. Who else has felt the magic from uridine?

Me. I'm bipolar 2 so that probably makes a difference.

[RJ100]

NAC = N-acetylcysteine. It works wonders for my OCD and anxiety.

I'll add Alpha GPC to my try list. Raising acetylcholine is potentially the reason ALCAR increased my anxiety, but I suppose this would be a good way to test that theory.

[Raza]

I'm skeptical that we can all attain such fantastic effects as Mr Happy has. Who else has felt the magic from uridine?

I love the stuff when I'm sleep deprived, hungover or otherwise impaired. On a good day it doesn't add much, and it actually kills hypomanic/euphoric states.

I find it unique and effective, now that I know what to expect from it.

[RJ100]

I decided to try it for these reasons:

Memory: improved
Focus: improved
Overall cognitive ability: improved
Motivation: improved
Energy levels: improved
Depression: improved
Sleep debt: mediated (short-term / dose related effect)
Skin health: improved
Muscle tone and development: improved
Gradual weight loss: observed

Other known effects: efficiently reverses/repairs damage from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease. Mediates side-effects from neuroleptics and anti-depressants.

Now i know what to expect from it, too.

[MrHappy]

I decided to try it for these reasons:

Memory: improved
Focus: improved
Overall cognitive ability: improved
Motivation: improved
Energy levels: improved
Depression: improved
Sleep debt: mediated (short-term / dose related effect)
Skin health: improved
Muscle tone and development: improved
Gradual weight loss: observed

Other known effects: efficiently reverses/repairs damage from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease. Mediates side-effects from neuroleptics and anti-depressants.

Now i know what to expect from it, too.

People have different reactions to substances, unfortunately. eg. I've also seen some people complain of brain fog from larger doses of fish oil.

It works well for the majority, so far.

Try introducing each component individually over a few weeks to identify the issue.

[RJ100]

I understand. I seem to have unpredictable reactions to things. (which, incidentally, I read today is one of the symptoms of an over-methylator).

There aren't any components to introduce individually over time. I've taken a B multi and DHA/EPA before with no issue.

After spending a week getting right, my next endeavor will be to determine whether I'm an over-methylator. Not sure how I'm going to do this yet. I do know that I fit the general profile, but I interested in verifying it.

[hephaestus]

Too much ach can also cause brain fog and interfere with memory consolidation during sleep.

http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.long

I think the way to determine if you overmethylate is by having your homocysteine checked, but I don't know that much about it. Here's a thread about it:

http://www.longecity...cysteine-trail/

Edited by hephaestus, 06 October 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[stablemind]

I'd just like to warn everyone about sublingually taking UMP. Just like anything else, this has a bell shaped response curve and if you take too much you may notice a mood flattening effect very similar to being depressed.

[NDM]

I'd just like to warn everyone about sublingually taking UMP. Just like anything else, this has a bell shaped response curve and if you take too much you may notice a mood flattening effect very similar to being depressed.

I wish you posted this five days ago...I took uridine daily since Thursday and was perplexed as to why I got a flat mood (as opposed to the improved mood claimed to result from uridine supplementation). I took only one 250mg scoop daily, but I am also supplementing with CDP Choline, and now I learned that uridine gets transformed into CDP choline.

[stablemind]

I'd just like to warn everyone about sublingually taking UMP. Just like anything else, this has a bell shaped response curve and if you take too much you may notice a mood flattening effect very similar to being depressed.

I wish you posted this five days ago...I took uridine daily since Thursday and was perplexed as to why I got a flat mood (as opposed to the improved mood claimed to result from uridine supplementation). I took only one 250mg scoop daily, but I am also supplementing with CDP Choline, and now I learned that uridine gets transformed into CDP choline.

I was trying to isolate the cause of the flatness because I thought it may be the choline that was in the multi-vitamin, but now that I'm taking 600 mg of Alpha GPC /day i know for sure it was the Uridine since even with this much choline intake, I'm not feeling dull. I'm not getting the mood boost I was getting initially though so it seems to inhibit mood although not as much as overdosing on Uridine.

I would advise you to drop the CDP, and take 1/4 of the scoop and ramp up from there. One 250 mg scoop is actually around 350 mg if you are using superiornutraceuticals FYI, someone weighed the scoop earlier in the thread.

[RJ100]

I think the way to determine if you overmethylate is by having your homocysteine checked, but I don't know that much about it. Here's a thread about it:

http://www.longecity...cysteine-trail/

I suffer from almost all of the symptoms of overmethylation, along with my issues with uridine and Methylb12.

A generic list of symptoms doesn't prove anything, though - I need some testing. A few that I've read about are homocysteine and/or histamine blood test, something called a nutrigenomics test and something else called a niacin flush test. Still investigating these.

[Chadwick]

I just hope I haven't been messing too much with my future blood test results by using copper antagonists, haha!

Anyhow: a few days after my zinc/manganese experiment, uridine is working for me again. It feels amazing - it really brings out the very best in me. Wow.

Could the minerals play a role in the effectiveness of uridine? It would be interesting to see if a uridine non-reponder could become a responder by using zinc and manganese as I did (and maybe also molybdenum, another copper antagonist). The plot thickens...

Zinc is required for dopamine production and for B vitamin effectiveness. Normally, a good multi-B includes zinc. Perhaps you have a higher requirement for zinc that gets exhausted under this protocol? I'd still be looking at liver issues.

Maybe your dizziness was from the manganese?

I'd still be getting the bloodwork done so you know where you are at conclusively.

So, I got my test results. I didn't test for zinc but I don't believe it could be low as I've been supplementing with it for quite a while.

B-Hemoglobin 157 g/L (130-170)
B-EFV 45 % (39-50)
B-Erithrocytes 5.15 10^12/L (4.30-5.70)
(B)Erc-MCV 88.3 fL (82-98)
(B)Erc-MCH 31 pg (27-33)
(B)Erc MCHC 347 g/L (320-360)
B-Leucocytes 6.0 10^9/L (3.5-9.0)
B-Trombocytes 233 10^9/L (150-350)
P-Folate 28 nmol/L (>8)
P-Homocysteine 4.9 nmol/L (<15)

P-ALP 0.9 ukat/L (0.6-1.8)
P-ALAT 0.42 ukat/L (0.15-1.10)
P-Glukos 5.7 mmol/L (4.0-6.0)
P-Ferritin 18 ug/L (25-310)
S-Copper 12 umol/L (10-18)

S-TSH 1.31 mIU/L (0.4-4.0)

P-Ceruloplasmin 0.16 g/L (0.15-0.30)

The only test that was out of normal range was ferritin, which I assume is connected to my vegetarianism. My Hb seems fine, however.

I've read that low ferritin is associated with low dopamine signalling, but can't find sources other than ones relating it to ADHD and restless legs syndrome. Anyhow, I'll supplement with iron for a while and see what happens.

EDIT: After using manganese, molybdenum, a B complex, zinc, vitamin C and grape seed exract for a few weeks my problems have been noticeably mitigated. Molybdenum, vitmain C and manganese enchances iron absorption, which I suppose would be a reason for this.

Edited by Chadwick, 11 October 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[MrHappy]

I just hope I haven't been messing too much with my future blood test results by using copper antagonists, haha!

Anyhow: a few days after my zinc/manganese experiment, uridine is working for me again. It feels amazing - it really brings out the very best in me. Wow.

Could the minerals play a role in the effectiveness of uridine? It would be interesting to see if a uridine non-reponder could become a responder by using zinc and manganese as I did (and maybe also molybdenum, another copper antagonist). The plot thickens...

Zinc is required for dopamine production and for B vitamin effectiveness. Normally, a good multi-B includes zinc. Perhaps you have a higher requirement for zinc that gets exhausted under this protocol? I'd still be looking at liver issues.

Maybe your dizziness was from the manganese?

I'd still be getting the bloodwork done so you know where you are at conclusively.

So, I got my test results. I didn't test for zinc but I don't believe it could be low as I've been supplementing with it for quite a while.

B-Hemoglobin 157 g/L (130-170)
B-EFV 45 % (39-50)
B-Erithrocytes 5.15 10^12/L (4.30-5.70)
(B)Erc-MCV 88.3 fL (82-98)
(B)Erc-MCH 31 pg (27-33)
(B)Erc MCHC 347 g/L (320-360)
B-Leucocytes 6.0 10^9/L (3.5-9.0)
B-Trombocytes 233 10^9/L (150-350)
P-Folate 28 nmol/L (>8)
P-Homocysteine 4.9 nmol/L (<15)

P-ALP 0.9 ukat/L (0.6-1.8)
P-ALAT 0.42 ukat/L (0.15-1.10)
P-Glukos 5.7 mmol/L (4.0-6.0)
P-Ferritin 18 ug/L (25-310)
S-Copper 12 umol/L (10-18)

S-TSH 1.31 mIU/L (0.4-4.0)

P-Ceruloplasmin 0.16 g/L (0.15-0.30)

The only test that was out of normal range was ferritin, which I assume is connected to my vegetarianism. My Hb seems fine, however.

I've read that low ferritin is associated with low dopamine signalling, but can't find sources other than ones relating it to ADHD and restless legs syndrome. Anyhow, I'll supplement with iron for a while and see what happens.

EDIT: After using manganese, molybdenum, a B complex, zinc, vitamin C and grape seed exract for a few weeks my problems have been noticeably mitigated. Molybdenum, vitmain C and manganese enchances iron absorption, which I suppose would be a reason for this.

As a vege also, I can relate.

Assuming you are male, iron levels should be easy enough to maintain (don't go too overboard with iron supplements). Don't drink coffee - kills the bowel flora that is used to absorb micro-nutrients, iron being a common victim. Taking vitamin C helps absorption.

It's a pity the blood test wasn't comprehensive. Depending on how you go, you may want to go back and test for fasting levels of the usual spectrum of minerals, etc.

[Chadwick]

As a vege also, I can relate.

Assuming you are male, iron levels should be easy enough to maintain (don't go too overboard with iron supplements). Don't drink coffee - kills the bowel flora that is used to absorb micro-nutrients, iron being a common victim. Taking vitamin C helps absorption.

It's a pity the blood test wasn't comprehensive. Depending on how you go, you may want to go back and test for fasting levels of the usual spectrum of minerals, etc.

Blood tests in Sweden (where I live) are usually kept to the few ones that the doctors believes are motivated, and far too many doctors seem to be undereducated regarding the importance of micronutrient testing. Also, I'm not entirely sure that plasma levels (which are commonly tested) always gives values that are valid for the body as a whole.

I would love to use a service such as SpectraCell, testing lymphocyte intracellular nutritients and thereby providing a portrait of long-term status, but it's unforturnately not available here. Maybe hair tissue could be an alternative?

[RJ100]

Don't drink coffee - kills the bowel flora that is used to absorb micro-nutrients, iron being a common victim. Taking vitamin C helps absorption.

What's this about coffee killing gut flora? I'd read that Bacteroides in the colon actually benefit from coffee consumption.

It's a pity the blood test wasn't comprehensive.

I'm headed to my doc next month for my annual blood test (CBC, CMP12, etc.) and I'm wondering what would be considered comprehensive, because that's what I'll request. Thanks.

[Renegade]

Uridine arrived today!

I'm starting with 15g fish oil + 50mg Uridine + 350mg choline bitartrate.

The last time I tried CDP Choline, it made me foggy so I'm going to experiment with bitartrate first and may give CDP a go in 10 days or so. Is bitartrate a good choline source for this stack? Is it worth upping the dosage to 700mg?

I feel like I had a distinct effect from the 50mg + 350mg choline I took 3 hrs ago. I felt my fatigue has lifted and my thoughts are more fluid. I have also noticed a mild stimulating effect. I don't think this is placebo. Is this a normal reaction to the initial dose?

I may also add ALCAR.

Apologies if these questions have been answered. I'm working my way though this mammoth thread!

Edited by Renegade, 12 October 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[MrHappy]

Don't drink coffee - kills the bowel flora that is used to absorb micro-nutrients, iron being a common victim. Taking vitamin C helps absorption.

What's this about coffee killing gut flora? I'd read that Bacteroides in the colon actually benefit from coffee consumption.

It's a pity the blood test wasn't comprehensive.

I'm headed to my doc next month for my annual blood test (CBC, CMP12, etc.) and I'm wondering what would be considered comprehensive, because that's what I'll request. Thanks.

That study showed an increase in 1 type of bowel fauna, in-vitro and didn't address what happened to the rest. I don't think there have been enough studies on it, however caffeine killing bowel fauna/flora has been an accepted premise in alternative medicine for some time.

Anecdotally, n=1, my brother-in-law, as a broke uni student, used to give a lot of blood and ended up anemic. His doctor told him to take iron supplements, which he did for a few months, but had no benefit to his issue. So he gave up taking iron supplements. 2 months later, he asked me about it and I suggested he give up his (daily) 3 cups of coffee and include vitamin C with the iron supplements. Problem solved in less than a week.

As for blood tests - the usual blood counts, plus fasting levels of minerals and vitamins.

[MrHappy]

Uridine arrived today!

I'm starting with 15g fish oil + 50mg Uridine + 350mg choline bitartrate.

The last time I tried CDP Choline, it made me foggy so I'm going to experiment with bitartrate first and may give CDP a go in 10 days or so. Is bitartrate a good choline source for this stack? Is it worth upping the dosage to 700mg?

I feel like I had a distinct effect from the 50mg + 350mg choline I took 3 hrs ago. I felt my fatigue has lifted and my thoughts are more fluid. I have also noticed a mild stimulating effect. I don't think this is placebo. Is this a normal reaction to the initial dose?

I may also add ALCAR.

Apologies if these questions have been answered. I'm working my way though this mammoth thread!

Depends on the individual circumstances. I often see mood lifting benefits shortly after a single dose.

While that type of choline is not my favourite, it's still choline.

BTW, that seems like a lot of fish oil. What does that work out to be for DHA/EPA?