25 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I know that once upon an evolutionary journey women had to act sort of stupid because procreation was the most important thing out there, and the path of least resistance (to sex) was sought by both genders to perpetuate the species.

But what gives in 2011 when a lot of women STILL act like they are nothing but pieces of fuck meat? Hear me out. I am not saying these women are inherently stupid, I know a few of them personally myself, so I know this not to be. But they ACT like they have trisomy 21 half the time, well, mostly when they are around larger groups of people, when they tend to dumb themselves down artificially.

I am looking for theories that are not conventional (I.E simple 'insecurity' and other such all too convenient explanations). I want people to brainstorm on this because I don't want to just dismiss it as a simple thing.

Why do 8 out of 10 women act like they have no brain in their heads in social engagements when that line of behavior is invalid in terms of our current state of evolution? The perpetuation of the species is a dead paradigm. What other reason could there be? I personally think the explanation is more modern than based off evolutionary principles. Conditioning perhaps? What do you think?

[niner]

I think you are right that it's not evolutionary.  I think the phenomenon derives from a long history of women having a low standing in human society, and of men being insecure about their own position in the world.  I have a suspicion that the phenomenon of women dumbing themselves down is a lot more prevalent in the less well-educated classes.  Guys without much educational attainment are just outa luck these days.  That probably makes them insecure, and they probably don't want a smarty pants woman who makes more money than they do.  (Oddly enough, that is precisely the kind of woman some of us seek out...)  I remember a business dinner some years back, a bunch of scientists and some guests.  There was a woman there, a friend of someone's girlfriend.  She was brilliant and funny, and her piercings suggested a person who liked to go for the gusto.  Every guy at the table wanted to take her home.   She wasn't dumbing herself down.  If she had, she would have been boring.   I don't know if some guys give off signals that they don't want a woman to be too smart, or if some women just learn that mode and do it all the time.  It certainly doesn't work for all guys, though some guys want it.

[The Immortalist]

Could you please give some examples of way's women dumb themselves down TheFountain?

[TheFountain]

niner, on 06 October 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

I think you are right that it's not evolutionary.  I think the phenomenon derives from a long history of women having a low standing in human society, and of men being insecure about their own position in the world.  I have a suspicion that the phenomenon of women dumbing themselves down is a lot more prevalent in the less well-educated classes.  Guys without much educational attainment are just outa luck these days.  That probably makes them insecure, and they probably don't want a smarty pants woman who makes more money than they do.  (Oddly enough, that is precisely the kind of woman some of us seek out...)  I remember a business dinner some years back, a bunch of scientists and some guests.  There was a woman there, a friend of someone's girlfriend.  She was brilliant and funny, and her piercings suggested a person who liked to go for the gusto.  Every guy at the table wanted to take her home.   She wasn't dumbing herself down.  If she had, she would have been boring.   I don't know if some guys give off signals that they don't want a woman to be too smart, or if some women just learn that mode and do it all the time.  It certainly doesn't work for all guys, though some guys want it.

The question is what does the woman want? In evolutionary/biological terms we're at a point where women are no longer having to assume the role of child bearer for the first quarter of their adulthood. Many opt to wait till mid 30s to have children, and some opt out of having children entirely. Women who dumb themselves down want something, the question is what?

[rwac]

Maybe they'd just prefer the guy made all the decisions for them and take charge of the situation.

[TheFountain]

The Immortalist, on 06 October 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

Could you please give some examples of way's women dumb themselves down TheFountain?

I think the applicable term is being a social peacock, but don't quote me on that.

Basically pretending they are interested in nothing particular, as long as attention is forthcoming for them. As deducing specific interests would limit the opportunity for begetting attention. The contrary impulses most women display is fascinating because it almost always leads to a turn of events which leaves them unfulfilled at some point in their lives. And yet they repeat the same patterns. *raises eyebrow*

Edited by TheFountain, 07 October 2011 - 12:15 AM.

[niner]

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Women who dumb themselves down want something, the question is what?

They want to attract a mate, and they want to be accepted by their female peers.  Dumbing down is a strategy that some women employ for one, the other, or (usually) both of these goals.  It's sad, but there are women who don't do it.

[TheFountain]

niner, on 07 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Women who dumb themselves down want something, the question is what?

They want to attract a mate

I really hoped you wouldn't simplify it that badly. If it is simply a matter of attracting a mate, why are they miserable with their choices 8 out of 10 times? Could it be that it's not really a choice they made, but that society and peer pressure sort of made in their place?

I think a big spoon full of this problem comes from the fact that most women are too mentally evolved to settle for any ole douche bag that stumbles their way, yet they are urged by society constantly to do just that! What horrid cognitive dissonance this creates.

Edited by TheFountain, 07 October 2011 - 02:06 AM.

[TheFountain]

So back to the question of what do women want? My guess? Control of something. Even if it means playing stupid to date some guy who is a clueless moron. Only problem is it generally backfires as stupid people are almost as chaotic as they are prone to being controlled.

[niner]

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

niner, on 07 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Women who dumb themselves down want something, the question is what?

They want to attract a mate

I really hoped you wouldn't simplify it that badly. If it is simply a matter of attracting a mate, why are they miserable with their choices 8 out of 10 times? Could it be that it's not really a choice they made, but that society and peer pressure sort of made in their place?

Sorry, but I think it IS as simple as that.  That and peer group acceptance.  To be a bit more detailed, these women probably lack role models.  Their mothers and their peers' mothers likely played a similar game.   The pool of possible mates is probably highly enriched in insecure losers, so that provides a "payoff" for acting stupid.  If they acted smart, these losers would be intimidated by them, and might lash out.  Note that these scenarios are a lot less likely in the higher intellect/higher status social strata.

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

I think a big spoon full of this problem comes from the fact that most women are too mentally evolved to settle for any ole douche bag that stumbles their way, yet they are urged by society constantly to do just that! What horrid cognitive dissonance this creates.

That might have been the case 50 years ago when a woman was expected to be married in her early 20's, but I just don't see this today.

[Athanasios]

I think both men and women do it because it works. I paid the first half of my college by buying tacos from a restaurant and reselling them in office buildings. In that environment, the best way to be approachable, non-threatening, and liked by all was by being overly-polite and dumbing oneself down. It was literally the difference between a $90 day and a $200 day.

[TheFountain]

niner, on 07 October 2011 - 02:31 AM, said:

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

niner, on 07 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Women who dumb themselves down want something, the question is what?

They want to attract a mate

I really hoped you wouldn't simplify it that badly. If it is simply a matter of attracting a mate, why are they miserable with their choices 8 out of 10 times? Could it be that it's not really a choice they made, but that society and peer pressure sort of made in their place?

Sorry, but I think it IS as simple as that.  That and peer group acceptance.  To be a bit more detailed, these women probably lack role models.  Their mothers and their peers' mothers likely played a similar game.   The pool of possible mates is probably highly enriched in insecure losers, so that provides a "payoff" for acting stupid.  If they acted smart, these losers would be intimidated by them, and might lash out.  Note that these scenarios are a lot less likely in the higher intellect/higher status social strata.

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

I think a big spoon full of this problem comes from the fact that most women are too mentally evolved to settle for any ole douche bag that stumbles their way, yet they are urged by society constantly to do just that! What horrid cognitive dissonance this creates.

That might have been the case 50 years ago when a woman was expected to be married in her early 20's, but I just don't see this today.

With the selection of people I get to work with that actually IS the case. But it's not their families or peer group (directly) effecting their decision but the media! And yes they are urged to make quick decisions and to draw in any ole douche bag, which largely explains why a lot of relationships end in failure. A lot of the women I counsel tell me they aren't even attracted to the men they involve themselves with, and then through a series of winding denials, eventually hit that wall of truth where they unwittingly admit that they 'jumped the gun' so to speak. It's sad that we have such an unconscious state amongst the female population in 2011. A little punctual social evolution is needed here.

[TheFountain]

Athanasios, on 07 October 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

I think both men and women do it because it works.

8 out of 10 relationships seem to end in failure and single mothers. Look at the statistical rates of divorce for first, second and third marriage. The numbers go UP because people continue to make the same stupid mistakes without using their heads!

How could anybody pass this travesty off as success?

No, the only thing this approach succeeds in doing is increase the number of single mothers and delinquent fathers in america.

Edited by TheFountain, 07 October 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[viveutvivas]

I think men dumb themselves down more than women.  Look at popular culture - all the comedies where the married guy is a dope who can hardly feed himself without drooling.  Look at American presidential elections where (to Republicans) the dumber you appear to be the better, where showing any signs of education, refinement, or knowledge of science and other matters is a real liability, and an attitude of ignorance is cultivated because it is advantageous.   Look at the way a lot of self-identified "regular" guys talk to their "buddies" at the gym or at barbecues or other get-togethers - they fall into this macho monkey role play where they use a dumbed down register of language that is little more than ritual grunting and flea-grooming, even if this is not the way they would normally talk.

[mikeinnaples]

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:

A little punctual social evolution is needed here.

*sigh* the social revolution has been going on for a LONG time. Unfortunately it takes a long time to completely absolve the old social norm that lasted thousands of years. There is still a LONG way to go, I agree, however I think you need to open your eyes just a bit and see how far the social revolution has come in the past 100 years.

Edit: Remember that we are now a global society where cultures directly influence one another through social media. While some countries still lag far behind or are stagnant, think about how far some of the other cultures have come even in the past 10 years.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 07 October 2011 - 12:34 PM.

[niner]

viveutvivas, on 07 October 2011 - 11:38 AM, said:

Look at popular culture - all the comedies where the married guy is a dope who can hardly feed himself without drooling.

Yeah, this is widespread in commercials, too.  The standard trope these days is the clueless guy with the woman who has it all figured out.  I see a lot of this in the cartoons that my kids watch, too.  It's time for the ad and TV writers to wake up and realize that it's not the 1950's any more, and women are now graduating from college at a much higher rate than men, and are more successful in employment.  We should be thinking about the role models that boys are presented with.  Homer Simpson and Gangstas isn't much to work with.

[viveutvivas]

mikeinnaples, on 07 October 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

*sigh* the social revolution has been going on for a LONG time. Unfortunately it takes a long time to completely absolve the old social norm that lasted thousands of years. There is still a LONG way to go, I agree, however I think you need to open your eyes just a bit and see how far the social revolution has come in the past 100 years.

Edit: Remember that we are now a global society where cultures directly influence one another through social media. While some countries still lag far behind or are stagnant, think about how far some of the other cultures have come even in the past 10 years.

I don't think in this (dumbing oneself down) there has necessarily been any progress.

The U.S. has certainly gone backward since the Enlightenment of the18th century when the framers of the constitution and many initial politicians included a large number of intellectuals, humanists, scientists, theologians, agnostics, atheists, polymaths, polylinguals, and so on.  Today we have presidential candidates of both genders who don't even know what these words mean.  Hell, they're not even ashamed to admit that they don't even read books or important newspapers, and that's considered a plus, while being able to speak a language other than English is considered a liability, and advocating separation of church and state (not to mention being atheist or agnostic) is political suicide.

Edited by viveutvivas, 07 October 2011 - 02:58 PM.

[Athanasios]

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 06:45 AM, said:

Athanasios, on 07 October 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

I think both men and women do it because it works.

8 out of 10 relationships seem to end in failure and single mothers...

My example had nothing to do with forming intimate relationships, attracting the opposite sex, or families, which was the point I was hoping to make. It is advantageous in many types of social settings, but not all. I think it becomes detrimental when it becomes used as a crutch or to avoid personal and social responsibility, not that it is inherently so.

Side Note:
At some point in every intellectual's development they hit a point where it seems their questions are blown off, ignored, or inadequately answered by others. It is important to keep in mind:
"You cannot rely on anyone else to argue you out of your mistakes; you cannot rely on anyone else to save you; you and only you are obligated to find the flaws in your positions; if you put that burden down, don't expect anyone else to pick it up."

It is not so much one point of development, as it is a recurring theme. If you develop too strict a world view, held on to too many assumptions, or have limited yourself to solving questions from your favorite angle,  this conflict will come up.

Edited by Athanasios, 07 October 2011 - 06:05 PM.

[niner]

TheFountain, on 07 October 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:

With the selection of people I get to work with that actually IS the case. But it's not their families or peer group (directly) effecting their decision but the media! And yes they are urged to make quick decisions and to draw in any ole douche bag, which largely explains why a lot of relationships end in failure. A lot of the women I counsel tell me they aren't even attracted to the men they involve themselves with, and then through a series of winding denials, eventually hit that wall of truth where they unwittingly admit that they 'jumped the gun' so to speak. It's sad that we have such an unconscious state amongst the female population in 2011. A little punctual social evolution is needed here.

Do you work in a battered women's shelter, or somesuch?  The reason I ask is that it seems like you have a skewed sample.  These don't sound like women you'd meet at an Ivy League school.  (Which would be another skewed sample...)

[corb]

Quote

But they ACT like they have trisomy 21 half the time, well, mostly when they are around larger groups of people, when they tend to dumb themselves down artificially.

Well the reason for that is quite simple : it's hard to talk to people about pretty much anything besides small talk without getting into an argument - everyone has an opinion. And women don't want to fight or exert themselves coming up with validations for their views, during social gatherings, they want to have fun and relax.

Quote

With the selection of people I get to work with that actually IS the case. But it's not their families or peer group (directly) effecting their decision but the media! And yes they are urged to make quick decisions and to draw in any ole douche bag, which largely explains why a lot of relationships end in failure. A lot of the women I counsel tell me they aren't even attracted to the men they involve themselves with, and then through a series of winding denials, eventually hit that wall of truth where they unwittingly admit that they 'jumped the gun' so to speak.

Two words : biological clock. Evolution has left women with a little voice in the back of their heads that screams at them : YOU HAVE TO GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A FAMILY. It also has a lot to do with upbringing and trying to cope with life in close knitted communities like suburbs and ghettos, uptown females are harder to please when it comes to choosing a partner.

[viveutvivas]

corb, on 08 October 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

Two words : biological clock. Evolution has left women with a little voice in the back of their heads that screams at them...

Haha, wait until you are somewhere between 40 and 50 and your midlife crisis sets in.  In many men, it's quite the spectacle of stupidity, although to be honest men make stupid decisions from puberty based on what their hormones tell them...   Hormones really take over our minds too - I myself have regretted more than once decision I made out of uncontrollable horniness, which really does shuffle a different chip into your brain - of course once you are sexually satisfied you kind of wonder what possessed your brain to do what it did.

[TheFountain]

^^^ That just gave me an amazing idea for a new thread!

[TheKidInside]

I have a great example of this...I have a friend who I was very close to and I am sure at one point or another we had a thing BUT...a few weeks before this past new years eve her and I were talking and she goes on to reveal how much anxiety she is experiencing regarding the new year (and essentially moving forward in life in general) and that she "just wants to find someone who is rich so I don't have to worry so much"...complete turn off and that was that ( I have no tolerance for even the slightest nonsense and get turned off extremely easily ).

She is a very intelligent, beautiful and great human being and it made me both sad and angry that someone of her potential would be dumbing herself down so-to-speak instead of tapping into all that potential and making something of herself.

Men however has similar problems that we call "post-nut syndrome" and I'm sure many of us have slept with women only to ask ourselves WTF!!!! were we thinking" the next morning haha.

cheers!

[Lufega]

I like dating intelligent women.  In fact, I prefer it.  "Dumb girls" simple don't do it for me.  Problem is, smart women forget how to make a man feel like a man and that's where the problems start.  They want to wear the pants in the relationship and have total control while the other girls know how to feed a mans ego.  I don't mind sharing control in a relationship.  A 50/50 approach works for me, but some women want it all.  This is where you have to be all alpha on their candy asses and take charge, which is what I think they really want anyways.  They just present a bigger challenge.  But who wants that struggle all the time ?

[Ben]

It's valuable if the woman is looking to please me. I hate a smart alec woman, a woman full of facts. Best women in my opinion are sweet and quiet. I believe this is true for many men too. Perhaps that explains it.

[TheKidInside]

Lufega, on 31 January 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I like dating intelligent women.  In fact, I prefer it.  "Dumb girls" simple don't do it for me.  Problem is, smart women forget how to make a man feel like a man and that's where the problems start.  They want to wear the pants in the relationship and have total control while the other girls know how to feed a mans ego.  I don't mind sharing control in a relationship.  A 50/50 approach works for me, but some women want it all.  This is where you have to be all alpha on their candy asses and take charge, which is what I think they really want anyways.  They just present a bigger challenge.  But who wants that struggle all the time ?

QFT