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Methylene Blue Experiences


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#301 niner

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:44 AM

First i really want to voice my appreciation towards those people who voiced concern for my health in regards to handling mb in powder form. I feel that the contraindications in handling and breathing are directed towards those who handle large amounts of mb. Still it makes perfect sense to be careful. Still unless I sneeze or suddenly feel an irrational urge t chug the stuff my airborne exposure is minimal. i have had blue staining on my fingers and even tiny amounts on a surface that could be overlooked can create quite a dye stain with water. I do make a point of washing my hands when staining has occurred ( I know I need to go buy some latex gloves). i have not noticed any irritation or any issues at all when my fingers/ hands have been stained.

Someone asked why I purchased the powder form was just to try to feel more secure in the purity of the substance. I knew i would be taking a substantial amount of the stuff for this experiment so I felt i needed a reliable source of the stuff. That's it.

amark, I think that the warnings on the solid form are overstated. 100mg orally is not at all a large dose by medical standards. I think it was a fine idea to get a good quality version of it, since you're taking so much. I'm taking 800 mcg, and I'm a little worried about contaminants at that dose, given that I'm using the Kordon fish medicine that most people are using. I initially bought that thinking that I'd be taking 60 mcg, but then I came to the conclusion that that dose was essentially baseless.

The antidepressant effect (and hypomania you mentioned earlier) are consistent with it acting as a MAOI at this dose. There could be other things going on as well.
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#302 MrHappy

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:22 AM

Regaining hair is interesting.. Antifungal or mitochrondrial activity, I wonder.

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#303 medievil

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 07:52 PM

Did anyone here notice methylene blue allevating anhedonia? I cant tell wheter its that in my regime or any of my confounding factors.

#304 MrHappy

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 10:10 PM

At the lower dose it was well balanced. At higher doses I found myself seeking pleasure in hobbies and not my wife..

#305 tintinet

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:21 AM

Actually, I think it gives me malaise- low grade headache, irritability, discomfort. I'd like to like it, but I don't think it agrees with me.

#306 niner

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:35 AM

Actually, I think it gives me malaise- low grade headache, irritability, discomfort. I'd like to like it, but I don't think it agrees with me.

Tintinet, how much were you taking?

#307 maxwatt

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:33 AM

I had the same problem as tintinnet at doses over 1 mg.

#308 MrHappy

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:26 AM

I had that problem whenever the higher dose wore off and I missed the next one.. Also when I stopped altogether.

Edited by MrHappy, 30 October 2011 - 05:26 AM.


#309 tintinet

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 01:21 AM

Actually, I think it gives me malaise- low grade headache, irritability, discomfort. I'd like to like it, but I don't think it agrees with me.

Tintinet, how much were you taking?


Variable- anywhere from 0.02 mg to over 1 mg. ISTM I only get this effect when I take it in the morning, though, so I may try to start again, only taking it later in the day.

#310 rwac

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 03:10 AM

Variable- anywhere from 0.02 mg to over 1 mg. ISTM I only get this effect when I take it in the morning, though, so I may try to start again, only taking it later in the day.


Dosing it every five hours for a few days might work.
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#311 amark

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 03:39 PM

Up date time.

I am still taking methylene blue for bi polar depression. I also take the Lyrica for the affliction. Both substances act as partial calcium channel blockers.

My wife (who knows me better than anyone and is a reliable judge about my behavior and appearance) says i am happier and calmer. I feel that is true.

No major side effects.

My hair keeps coming back. I am talking serious hair regrowth here. My hairline is creeping back although not in a uniform manner. Like little fiords of hair.

It is hard to tell what is the cause here between resveratrol, peperine, mb, lyrica, and all the other supplements i take it is difficult for me to acertain what might be causing the hair regrowth and also what it might be doing , positive or negative, to me. I also drink overbrewed green tea (6 minutes) taken with b vitamins. I read at Wired .com about an experiment that the US Army had done and they made a drink combining those two substances and claimed it had a positive effect on mitrochondria wich increaesd performance and endurance about 3%.

As far as maoi goes I have eaten cheddar cheese without any apparent effects.

Coffee seems to accentuate concentration more than b4. I drink a lot of coffee.

So I am happy with the effects but I know there is much more to understand.

a warning to anyone trying this DO NOT TAKE METHYLENE BLUE WITH AN SSRI! THIS INCLUDES ANTIDEPRESSENT DRUGS LIKE PROZAC, PAXIL ETC. IT WILL CAUSE DANGEROUS SEROTONIN OVERLOADS. i SUE WELLBUTRIN AT 150MG EXTENDED RELEASE WITH NO PROBLEMS. IT IS ONE OF THE FEW ANTI DEPRESSENTS THAT IS NOT AN SSRI.

Anyway I am boringly normal. Still creative and i want to work more.

Any thoughts or questions are welcome.
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#312 MrHappy

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:31 PM

Sounds like it's working well for you. Very interesting results. Keep us posted!

#313 noos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:25 AM

Updates?
I stopped MB because I am taking sulbutiamine. Do you think it is ok to take both?

#314 noos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:28 AM

Up date time.

I am still taking methylene blue for bi polar depression. I also take the Lyrica for the affliction. Both substances act as partial calcium channel blockers.


Dose?

My hair keeps coming back. I am talking serious hair regrowth here. My hairline is creeping back although not in a uniform manner. Like little fiords of hair.



More hair from MB? :|o

#315 medievil

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:09 PM

He takes 150mg if i recall correctly. Seems huge but actually a normally used dose.

Edited by medievil, 09 November 2011 - 04:09 PM.


#316 MrHappy

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:10 PM

Which suggests his hair loss could have been fungal in origin and the MB has taken care of the fungus. :)
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#317 amark

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:45 PM

Update I tried taking choline chloride . Usually I have no negative effects. This time it was headaches and feeling uncomfortable. Took my bp no problems there. I went to my Dr. who asked me how I was feeling and he stated that if my kidney / liver functions were good and if I was feeling fine than he was not worried. When I get the test back in a few days I will report on it.

I feel the lyrica and mb seem to have, for me, a synergistic effect. That both semi block the calcium channels so that is my guess.

I am back to taking 100mg a day I tried 200mg split into two doses but I felt it made my mental state one of being uncomfortable. I went back to one 100mg capsule a day and that works well. Being at least, for now, relieved of bipolar depression is a great thing for me. I do not claim what I do will have the same effect on others and certainly in case someone missed it :DO NOT TAKE METHYLENE BLUE IF YOU ARE TAKING ANY ANTI DEPRESSANTS OTHER THAT WELLBUTRIN BECAUSE YOU WILL CAUSE A SEROTONIN TOXICITY PROBLEM. NO ssri'S PROZAC, PAXIL ETC. There I feel relieved of that burden.

Be well.
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#318 chrono

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 08:36 AM

I started taking MB 6 days ago. I made a solution of 60mcg/drop, measuring the water with an oral syringe and the Kordon liquid with a milligram scale. Given the inaccuracy of the oral syringe and drop size, I'm assuming a possible deviation of anything up to 50% from the intended dose.

I've been interested in this chemical for at least a year, but have been on tramadol (SNRI and downstream SSRI) for about 3 years, and did not think it was safe to take until the recent discussions about MAOI and dosage. I was mostly interested in its long-term effects on neurological health; in other words, I was expecting no subjective effects at this dose.


I have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised by my experience so far. I've noticed a definite, unmistakable effect every time I've taken it. In magnitude, I'd say it's about on par with piracetam; some elements of my reactions to stimuli and texture of base consciousness are definitely altered, though in a way that's difficult to "point to," like you can with stronger substances like alcohol. Though it might be easier to distinguish for me than piracetam, because it acts upon processes which are more fundamental than complex cognitive tasks. But it does feel very natural.


The primary effect I experience is anxiolysis. I have always been a very calm and deliberate person, not typically "anxious" as a significant personality trait. But I do tend to experience a kind of low-level anxiety in a lot of situations, much of which is tied up with learned associations with attentional difficulties and my chronic pain condition of the past 5 years or so. MB has alleviated this in a fairly significant way. I find it much easier to do things I would typically avoid because I perceive them as unpleasant (though it's certainly not "motivating" in the same way as stronger dopaminergics). I usually "tense up" subtly when talking with people I'm not close and comfortable with, which leads to avoidance behavior; this has also been attenuated. Reading about stressful subjects like politics usually puts me in a more lastingly anxious state of mind, but I've found this much easier as well. This week I've found myself less reactionary toward stressful conversations and events; not that those reactions disappear, but don't affect me as fully and involuntarily. I guess I'd say that the effect is fairly subtle, yet remarkable; it doesn't feel anything like the stronger anxiolytics I've tried, but retains a high degree of their therapeutic effect with barely any of the subjective downsides. Very "targeted."

Interestingly, I've recalled one of Devin's comments about increased frankness a few times this week. I've been much more likely to comment when someone is talking to me in a way I don't like. I'm certainly not more irritable, but it just seems to make less sense to put up with someone acting insensitively, when I usually have a high threshold for it. Like I see more clearly the causes and impact of an exchange, and can say something about it in a fairly dispassionate way. I'm not sure if this is a good thing, or not, but it's certainly interesting.


Another effect I notice (which is probably closely linked, perhaps bidirectionally, with my anxiety reduction) is a subtle shift in attention. My mind is usually both racing, and wandering. Without some kind of assistance, I have a tremendously difficult time keeping on a single task, or train of thought, for any length of time. MB has a definite "narrowing" effect in this regard—which sounds potentially negative, but which I mean in a positive way. My mind feels calmer, and I'm able to concentrate on one thing better than usual. This effect is more subtle than the anxiolysis, and because my attention is a bigger problem, is not as great a solution. I guess I notice this most when just sitting and not doing much in particular, and I find myself less likely to be ruminating over irrelevancies. When trying hard to concentrate on something, I still find my mind wandering away. One of the hardest things for me to do is listen to audiobooks in the car; I can probably only catch and retain half or a quarter of what's being said (incredibly frustrating). I hear more and retain better what I do, though my mind is still prone to tangents.

I've noticed little effect on cognitive tasks, beyond the slight improvement in attention I just described. I find that it combines quite well with my usual 1.6g piracetam + 1.5g ALCAR. Piracetam usually helps me a lot when I want to sit and read or write something, but can tend to exacerbate the 'racing' aspect of my thinking. MB seems to be a very pleasing counterpoint, where I retain the enhanced verbal attention and fluidity of piracetam, but with the faster thinking reigned in a bit. All in all, I feel like it has a fairly neutral impact on most of my cognitive faculties, which is fine with me. I also tried it once with huperzine A, and had a very good day.


I've experimented with up to two drops (~120mcg). I find the higher dose to be more anxiolytic, but perhaps a little too calming. I've worked up to dosing twice a day, but I think that 2x 2 drops left me sleepy at the end of the day (and earlier than usual). The higher dose may have caused some increased sweating and transient headaches, as well. I think MAOI effects are unlikely at this dose, though I'm keeping the possibility in mind. Most negative effects have occurred toward the very end of the day, which seems inconsistent with the pharmacodynamics of transient MAO inhibition.. Right now I think that 1 drop twice daily (perhaps 6 hours apart) is working the best, though I might go back to one dose earlier in the day, as well.

A confounding factor is that I also started on neurontin earlier this month, and have been titrating my dosage upward. This has had several effects on my sleep, and may have also caused sweating on a day I didn't take MB. However, the MB effects I described above occur very predictably right after I take my dose, in a way consistent with normal drug onset. On days I have not taken MB this week, and in the mornings, the effects are very obviously absent. And though somewhat subtle, I'm quite confident at this point that there's no chance I'm describing a placebo effect.


All in all, I'm very impressed with methylene blue. I was expecting none of this, and thought the people reporting effects at 60mcg were either exaggerating, or experiencing the kind of thing some people report from ALA (i.e. either uncommon, or placebo). The effects are subtle yet significant, and fairly unique in their selectivity and combination. Though before anyone gets too excited by my report, this may well be unique to my neurochemistry and personality. This is something I'll probably be taking every day, which I haven't been able to say about a nootropic since I started piracetam. I'm very curious to see how it plays out going forward, and really hope the effects are maintained.

This turned out to be fairly long, because I like to report on trends, rather than posting my daily impressions ;) I'll report back when I've used it over a longer stretch, or something significant changes.

Edited by chrono, 12 November 2011 - 10:13 AM.

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#319 MrHappy

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:05 AM

:) Sounds like you've been having fun!

#320 Brainbox

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 07:42 PM

I'm still reading the full text of this study. But there's one point that stands out somewhat and that's a remark regarding purity.



It is also important to note that adverse effects of MB are not explained solely on the basis of hormesis or oxidative damage, but also on that of its chemical purity. Even pharmaceutical (USP) grade MB contains impurities, such as arsenic, aluminum, cadmium, mercury and lead. At low doses, the presence of contaminants is not of great concern, but at higher doses non- specific effects due to accumulation of various toxic and bioactive substances are possible. Industrial-grade and chemical-grade MB sold as a dye or stain can consist of more than 8% or 11% of various contaminants (NTP, 2008, Sigma Chemical Co, St. Louis, MO) and should not be administered to humans or animals. For example, commercial chemical suppliers routinely warn that their non-USP MB products are of a chemical grade not suitable for use in living applications. Nevertheless, some recent studies have used these impure chemical-grade MB products with living cells and animals, obtaining potentially misleading dose–response and toxic effects (Atamna et al., 2008; Auerbach et al., 2010).



So I guess in case you are specifically aiming at the higher doses that some of us seem to be doing, but also in general, be careful to use a reputable MB source.

This message is brought to you by a possibly overprotective life extension enthusiast. :)

Edited by Brainbox, 12 November 2011 - 07:44 PM.

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#321 DeadMeat

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:58 PM

http://ntp.niehs.nih...0_web_final.pdf

Methylene blue trihydrate was obtained from Aldrich Chemical Company (Milwaukee, WI) in two lots (PY01917JX and 10306AF) and Sigma Chemical Co. (St. Louis, MO) in one lot (68H3728).


For lot 68H3728, elemental analysis showed good agreement between theoretical and found percentages by weight for carbon (49.96%), hydrogen (6.73%), nitrogen (10.95%), sulfur (8.52%), and chlorine (8.97%); water content was 16.55%, 2.15% above theoretical; and the melting point was between 185° and 186° C, consistent for the chemical with water content of 16.55%. UV/Vis spectra were consistent with the structure of methylene blue trihydrate. HPLC by system B indicated one major peak and three impurities with relative peak areas of 0.16%, 0.21%, and 6.55%. A second HPLC analysis by system C, designed to detect more impurities, indicated similar results. Additional analysis using HPLC/MS by system E was conducted by the analytical chemistry laboratory in an attempt to identify the 6.55% impurity. Interpretation of the fragmentation pattern indicated that this impurity was very similar to methylene blue trihydrate with the exception of one methyl group replaced by a proton.


As far as I understand that’s mainly just Azure B, which is an active metabolite of methylene blue but at least not mercury. And from one of your previous posts could even be responsible for some of MB's effects. Funny they don’t mention Azure B and stuff at all in this review.
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#322 MrHappy

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 01:09 AM

Bingo.

#323 niner

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:32 AM

Thanks for that paper, DeadMeat. I also noticed their possibly paranoid mention of purity issues. (Or maybe not paranoid- I'd like to see a CoA from Kordon.) Another thing that struck me was Table 1, which listed the doses used in all the published experiments they had considered. I was looking for something that would make sense of the results that people here are seeing with oral doses of <100mcg. All of the nootropic effects were observed with doses from 1-4 mg/kg, mostly injected intraperitoneally. People here are seeing effects at doses that are not one, not two, but THREE orders of magnitude lower than this, and taken by a route that is probably less efficient. I'm not saying that these effects are imaginary; I hope that we've stumbled upon some new science here. However, I don't know of anyone running any experiments to rule out the placebo effect. When we see that brilliant blue liquid swirling around in the water, it's hard not to expect something really cool to happen. After all, the stuff certainly looks cool. It really looks like it should work. I'd like to encourage anyone who is noticing significant effects from very low dose MB to do the following: Get two opaque containers, like a sports water bottle, that you can drink from without seeing the solution. Make up your usual MB solution, and an equivalent volume of plain water. Have someone fill one opaque container with the MB, and the other with plain water, without you watching. Have them label the two containers A and B. Drink one of them without looking at the contents. At your usual next dosing time, drink the other one. Do this several times, then have them break the blinding code. See if you can tell a difference between the water and the MB.
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#324 MrHappy

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:34 AM

<chuckle> I guarantee non-placebo effects observed by me and/or my wife.. some very good effects, some not very good - although god knows what's in mine. Anyone with access to a gas chromatograph in Sydney? :)

Edited by MrHappy, 15 November 2011 - 06:35 AM.


#325 chrono

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:22 AM

^^ I may actually do that, at some point soon when it's convenient, since it's an interesting question with this substance and dosage. I'm fairly certain I'm not experiencing a placebo effect, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility, and I haven't been taking it long enough to eliminate all possible variables. The biggest of which is probably side effects from my neurontin titration, and the anhedonia and insomnia I'm getting at varying points in the day. Tramadol is another, though I confirmed today that MB works long before I take my first dose of the day.

In support of the assumption that it does work at this dose, I will say that I'm not experiencing the cognitive enhancement effects described in the review (at least that I've noticed), and MB has a wacky hormetic dose-response curve. Devin posted a paper earlier in this thread which showed significant increase in Complex IV activity at 10nM, which seems like it could be achievable with the ~100mcg doses we're discussing. Note that it wasn't a lower limit, and had a flat dose-response from 10nM to 100nM:

Attached File  MB - complex IV immunostaining.png   49.28KB   6 downloads

Immunoblotting for COX-II subunits of mito Complex IV

(click to enlarge)

Enhancement of oxidative metabolism in mitochondria is the mechanism the review posits for the cognitive effects, so it seems not unreasonable that similar effects could occur at lower doses, given this data.

As for a placebo trial, a different design that wouldn't require an open-minded nootropic buddy or large bottles of MB involves capsules, which I've started playing with over in this thread (ideas are needed). Capsule the MB, then place each capsule in an opaque envelope (small manila "key" envelopes are available at office supply stores). One could place a pencil mark inside the one with the active dose, although the MB capsules I'm making have a large blue band. Be careful not to make any identifying creases/dents in the envelope. Seal them and shake them up in a shoebox, then pick one and swallow the pill without looking at it (or touching, if there's any tactile difference). If you're super-serious and think a subconscious identification of the envelope might give it away, don't look at them after you've shuffled, and then seal both in a larger envelope until you want to know. If not looking, opacity isn't really necessary.

EDIT: An initial test with some capsuled MB produced significantly weaker effects, in a way that seemed disproportionate to the expected difference in onset time. Would be curious to hear if any other responders have success with this ROA, regardless of whether they're doing a placebo test.

Edited by chrono, 16 November 2011 - 11:40 PM.

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#326 medievil

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:54 PM

Anyone that has tried methylene blue with benzo's? The sedation may be modulated, togheter with withdrawals and tolerance possibly of other substances too, any reports coming in are highly apreciated, especially with substances like amphetamine or other stimulants, also a simple observation like how it affects coming off amp are apreciated.

#327 amark

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:20 PM

MB with modafinal works well for me.

One side effect I have noticed is that I find myself irrationally looking forward to the sequel to Avatar.

Edited by amark, 18 November 2011 - 09:21 PM.

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#328 manic_racetam

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:38 PM

MB with modafinal works well for me.

One side effect I have noticed is that I find myself irrationally looking forward to the sequel to Avatar.


HA! Also, they're making a sequel?

#329 noos

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:25 PM

Anyone that has tried methylene blue with benzo's? The sedation may be modulated, togheter with withdrawals and tolerance possibly of other substances too, any reports coming in are highly apreciated, especially with substances like amphetamine or other stimulants, also a simple observation like how it affects coming off amp are apreciated.


Dose of MB to combine with benzo?

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#330 medievil

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:49 PM

Anyone that has tried methylene blue with benzo's? The sedation may be modulated, togheter with withdrawals and tolerance possibly of other substances too, any reports coming in are highly apreciated, especially with substances like amphetamine or other stimulants, also a simple observation like how it affects coming off amp are apreciated.


Dose of MB to combine with benzo?

It probably wont work if it doesnt affect NO, but nitric oxide modulates can become the next nmda antagonists for potentiating several substances and help allevating the withdrawal and tolerance issues.

Im preparing a thread about this soon, i beleive no is a much better pathway anyway as you dont antagonize NMDA wich is better agonized.

As an example, nmda agonists will help social anxiety related fears in a way thats differend from drugs that induce monoamine build up, look up d cycloserine and social anxiety. D cyclosering is a weak nmda agonist, glycine or its reuptake inhibitor sarcosine will work better.

As an example one finding amphetamine effective can still get the same effectiveness (even better) then when they have to take a nmda antagonist for tolerance, ill fully explain this later on when ive got a thread ready, for now nmda antagonists will still do for most people.

A alternative pathway also helps those unresponsive to nmda antagonists.

Methylene blue may fit into this modulation as it depletes glutamate, i'm not sure how it does that tough, as far as i'm aware nmda antagonism should induce more NO, but then again methylene blue has a very complex mechanism of action.

One paper hypothised it also acts on glutamate receptors besides lowering glutamate, and that way cause a overall agonistic action, looking for more information about this possibility and how it exactly modulates glutamate.




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