41 replies to this topic

[Ark]

Has anyone seen any new studies on Cat's Claw?

[8bitmore]

Yes, there's quite a few referenced from this blog post [http://www.anti-agin...2011/09/29/702/]

The newest ones that I could see from brief scan were quite new indeed; all 2011 studies. I found the post when looking for data on Lyme's disease to which Cat's Claw seems a potential cure (apparently caused 85% of 28 patient to become seronegative in 2003 study [http://www.digitalna...ontroversy.html])

I'm very also interested in hearing from people with practical/personal experience of using Cat's Claw in case there's people out there with knowledge to weigh in with..

[Ark]

Thanks for the post, the blog is very interesting.

[sam7777]

http://herbs.maxforu...aria-tomentosa/

[1kgcoffee]

I'm very also interested in hearing from people with practical/personal experience of using Cat's Claw in case there's people out there with knowledge to weigh in with..

I buy shredded cats claw from mountainroseherbs.com and make a tea now and then, usually with cinnamon and or dandelion/burdock/or some other root-bark. First, the smell- unmistakeable rainforest scent. Not like those crap artificial potpouri aerosols, but a genuinely wholesome rainforest aroma. The taste is a little bitter but not unpleasant. I actually really like it. After 15-30 minutes, it makes me feel kind of relaxed, sleepy and a bit deflated, which you'd expect from an MAOI like cats claw (keep in mind that we're talking about a strong brew). I always like to take a cat-nap afterwards. You can definitely feel the anti-inflammatory effect. It generally feels like something healthful you could drink every evening for the rest of your life, and a lot south Americans do just that. In combination with something like cinnamon, it might even be better than pycnogenol.

[Ark]

Cool, cat's claw has Rhynchophylline and from the research in the link above, it's a very unusual molecule.

[thedevinroy]

I was actually thinking about this supplement. Rhynchophylline is a noncompetitive NMDA antagonist, so I imagine it might be a nice way to chill out after a long day, get your thoughts in line from firing like a machine gun in the hands of a two year old. Combined with its MAO-A/B inhibition, it sounds like a nice hyperactivity treatment for them crazy kids.

[Ark]

Shushipuppy , Lion's mane and Bacopa stack great with Cat's Claw.

[thedevinroy]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12433591

Rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline inhibit NMDA receptors expressed in Xenopus oocytes.

Rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline are major tetracyclic oxindole alkaloid components of Uncaira species, which have been long used as medicinal plants. In this study, the effects of rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline on the ionotropic and metabotropic glutamate receptor-mediated current responses were examined using Xenopus oocytes injected with total RNA prepared from rat cortices or cerebelli. Rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline (1-100 microM) per se failed to induce membrane current, but these alkaloids reversibly reduced N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)-induced current in a concentration-dependent but voltage-independent manner. The IC(50) values of rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline were 43.2 and 48.3 microM, respectively. Substitution of Ba(2+) for Ca(2+) in the recording medium did not alter the extent of rhynchophylline- and isorhynchophylline-induced suppression of NMDA currents. In contrast, neither alkaloid had an effect on the currents mediated by ionotropic kainic acid-type and (+/-)-alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid (AMPA)-type glutamate receptors or by the metabotropic glutamate receptor(1 and 5) (mGlu(1/5)). Rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline (30 microM) significantly reduced the maximal current responses evoked by NMDA and glycine (a co-agonist of NMDA receptor), but had no effect on the EC(50) values and Hill coefficients of NMDA and glycine for inducing currents. These alkaloids showed no interaction with the polyamine binding site, the Zn(2+) site, proton site or redox modulatory site on the NMDA receptor. These results suggest that rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline act as noncompetitive antagonists of the NMDA receptor and that this property may contribute to the neuroprotective and anticonvulsant activity of the Uncaira species plant extracts.

It tones down hyperactivity and overstimulation. Great adjunct to dopaminergic and adrenergic therapies. It also doesn't affect AMPA receptors, so Piracetam and other ampakines will still work just fine.

[absent minded]

Rhynchophylline <-- the chinese one right? This one has the rep for having one of the highest MAO-B inhibiting effects based on that study about the many chinese herbs that have MAOI characteristics. Someone linked this on some other thread: Inhibition of monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) by Chinese herbal medicines. - Free Online Library

The question, will the South American variant still have the MAOI properties similar to the chinese version?

[Athanasios]

It is just likely due to there being many other adaptogens. I look at cat's claw and various others every once in a while, but I haven't seen anything that would make me switch, from ashwagandha for example.

[thedevinroy]

It is just likely due to there being many other adaptogens. I look at cat's claw and various others every once in a while, but I haven't seen anything that would make me switch, from ashwagandha for example.

What's wrong with mixing adaptogens?

[Athanasios]

What's wrong with mixing adaptogens?

Maybe nothing. In my view, after taking one or two the beneficial effects are quite redundant but the possible risks increase.

[thedevinroy]

What's wrong with mixing adaptogens?

Maybe nothing. In my view, after taking one or two the beneficial effects are quite redundant but the possible risks increase.

Depends...

[Athanasios]

Depends...

I keep watching for unique effects or little overlap of effects that make it worth while to add more than two in combination, vs. increasing dosage, but have yet to find it. There are a lot of compounds and information out there, so I accept that I could easily be wrong. My goals aren't for nootropic purposes, solely, so that may differ with others here as well.

I have thought of doing a little mix of all those that sound both beneficial and safe, but I seem to always come back to relying on studied dosages and safety profile. Have you found any subjective or studied benefits to going with a combo?

Edited by Athanasios, 26 November 2011 - 03:10 AM.

[X_Danny_X]

Cats claw is a MAO Inhibitor for both A and B? If so, then can I mix this guy with Deprenyl/Selegiline and Methynol Blue without any worries?

What is so great about Cats Claw for cognitive and memory purposes?

[thedevinroy]

Depends...

I keep watching for unique effects or little overlap of effects that make it worth while to add more than two in combination, vs. increasing dosage, but have yet to find it. There are a lot of compounds and information out there, so I accept that I could easily be wrong. My goals aren't for nootropic purposes, solely, so that may differ with others here as well.

I have thought of doing a little mix of all those that sound both beneficial and safe, but I seem to always come back to relying on studied dosages and safety profile. Have you found any subjective or studied benefits to going with a combo?

Ashwagandha + Ginkgo + Gotu Kola + Zinc = Serenity & Clarity

Zinc is important, for whatever the reason may be (cofactor for B6 conversion, GABA blockade, etc.), but it prevents the stack from becoming sedating. The combo also helps combat vertigo and hyperactivity from Selegiline.

[thedevinroy]

Cats claw is a MAO Inhibitor for both A and B? If so, then can I mix this guy with Deprenyl/Selegiline and Methynol Blue without any worries?

What is so great about Cats Claw for cognitive and memory purposes?

Cat's Claw will make the effects of Selegiline more powerful. It has catechin and epicatechin, also found in teas, which inhibit MAO-B and COMT (reversibly). If you can handle black or green tea on Selegiline, you can handle Cat's Claw. I can't find anything on it being an MAO-A inhibitor, so I guess that was my imagination. I wasn't quite sure, but after a Google search, I couldn't find anything. It will make mixed MAO inhibitors act more like MAO-A inhibitors, due to its inhibition of MAO-B.

[X_Danny_X]

I was referring to your comment on Cat's Claw ingredient Rhynchophylline which in your second post inhibits MAO A and B. So you are saying that it only inhibits MAO B only and not A? Or you might of meant to say that after it inhibits MAO B, it will go after MAO A. MAO A basically breaks down Serotonin and converts it to Melatonin correct?

I am planning to replace Bacopa, DMAE, and Ritalin for Selegiline, Ashwagandha, PPQ, CoQ10, Zinc and now Cat's Claw. Still keeping Methylene Blue and possibly Noopept. I might try to add Huperzine A.

Hope I am not overdoing it since I have a few MAO inhibitors. Trying to find an answer to my ADHT/ADD. Right now I cannot stand still for 15 minutes when studying, . Sometimes even less than that. I have to walk around a bit or just go outside.

Cats Claw and Zinc might just help with my adhd/add issue alot. Plus they are cheap.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 27 November 2011 - 02:12 AM.

[nupi]

I don't think mixing Selegiline and Methylene Blue is a particularly smart idea - they are both potent MAOI though in fairness Selegiline is MAO B specific up to around 10mg. There are definitely reports of MB leading to Serotonin Toxicity but in fairness, clinical doses are significantly higher than what most around here seem to be using for its Nootropic effects

[X_Danny_X]

what Methylene Blue, MAO does it inhibit? is it MAO A or B?

[thedevinroy]

what Methylene Blue, MAO does it inhibit? is it MAO A or B?

It's A.

[thedevinroy]

I was referring to your comment on Cat's Claw ingredient Rhynchophylline which in your second post inhibits MAO A and B. So you are saying that it only inhibits MAO B only and not A? Or you might of meant to say that after it inhibits MAO B, it will go after MAO A. MAO A basically breaks down Serotonin and converts it to Melatonin correct?

I am planning to replace Bacopa, DMAE, and Ritalin for Selegiline, Ashwagandha, PPQ, CoQ10, Zinc and now Cat's Claw. Still keeping Methylene Blue and possibly Noopept. I might try to add Huperzine A.

Hope I am not overdoing it since I have a few MAO inhibitors. Trying to find an answer to my ADHT/ADD. Right now I cannot stand still for 15 minutes when studying, . Sometimes even less than that. I have to walk around a bit or just go outside.

Cats Claw and Zinc might just help with my adhd/add issue alot. Plus they are cheap.

Cat's Claw inhibits MAO-B selectively, and it contains Rhyncophylline... but there is no correlation outside of the existence in the same plant. It is the catechins and epicatechins that inhibit COMT and MAO-B competitively and reversibly. Rhyncophylline is a unique NMDA antagonist (not an MAO-B or MAO-A inhibitor) that is noncompetitive, unlike a typical calcium channel blocker, it attaches to an alosteric site, closing the channel via another mechanism. The catechins and epicatechins may increase the effects of an MAO-A inhibitor (since MAO-B has common substrates like dopamine, for instance), but they themselves are not known substrates of the MAO-A enzyme.

It seems as if your brain skips around a lot, and I would agree that Zinc and Cat's Claw may help focus you. Are you taking Magnesium, too? I also suggest at leas a 200mg increase in magnesium, because most people don't get enough, and studies show that those with ADHD are often deficient.

[X_Danny_X]

Thanks devinthayer, I am still in the learning phase, trying to understand your vast knowledge of the terms and substances that you bring. I want to absorb as much as possible from foods since my wallet is not that big at this time to buy alot of supplements. I am really poor as the church mouse at this time. Trying to afford some cheap supplements but with powerful effects. Which foods contain Magnesium and Zinc the most?

I decided to buy Cats Claw along with Ashwagandha. what does the NMDA amino acid responsible for and why is it good for Cat's Claw to block it? so Cats Claw inhibit MAO selectively, meaning that it can sometimes inhibit it but rarely when ingested by us.

I dont feel crap from M. Blue, if it is inhibit MAO A, i have no serotonin increase since I dont feel motivated or concentrated. I guess i am a non-responder for MB. I take a few droplets. So I feel I should have no problems adding Selegiline with MB. However I sometimes wonder that MB is working to inhibit MAO - A but serotonin doesnt do much.
I

Edited by X_Danny_X, 29 November 2011 - 03:56 AM.

[nupi]

If you do not feel like it is doing anything, why risk stacking it?

I so far was under the impression that Serotonin had no major role for focus, more for mood... However, MAO-A do not just work on Serotonin (even though that is probably their biggest danger after the Tyramine issues)

[X_Danny_X]

It is hard to give up a substance that can last you for months or close to a year and it is responsible for improving cognitive abilities and memory. I dont want to just give it up. So far I am not yet decided to get Deprenyl.

However Deprenyl goes after MAO B and not A.


I just took Bacopa, Ashwagandha, Cat's Claw ( Source Natural's 1MG pills, these pills are HUGE), MB, ALCAR, Noopept, and breakfast (4 eggs, apples, orange, spirulina and chlorella). I felt kind of tired. I believe I might need to add some Zinc but I will use Ritalin for now.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 29 November 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[thedevinroy]

It is hard to give up a substance that can last you for months or close to a year and it is responsible for improving cognitive abilities and memory. I dont want to just give it up. So far I am not yet decided to get Deprenyl.

However Deprenyl goes after MAO B and not A.


I just took Bacopa, Ashwagandha, Cat's Claw ( Source Natural's 1MG pills, these pills are HUGE), MB, ALCAR, Noopept, and breakfast (4 eggs, apples, orange, spirulina and chlorella). I felt kind of tired. I believe I might need to add some Zinc but I will use Ritalin for now.

NMDA antagonism basically prevents your neurons from firing too long or too much. It's calming, and focusing to some degree. Keeps your brain from jumping around too much. Some people find it sedating at first, but gain accustomed to the inhibition, and actually improve (talking about memantine and adamantine) in ADHD, Dementia, and Parkinson's symptoms over time, regaining their cognition better than before. It's a relatively controversial treatment for ADHD, but an approved medication for cognitive decline.

Bacopa makes me quite tired. A lot of people with ADHD find Bacopa to be too sedating. I take maybe 200mg before bed, and that seems to do it for me. Any more, and I feel like a slug on valium. Ashwagandha can be sedating, since it does increase serotonin levels (http://www.longecity...arch-distilled/), but I and others feel it as a general nerve tonic, helpful more than hurtful. Cat's Claw, though it may have considerable catechins, it also is known to be somewhat calming due to the NMDA antagonism.

Zinc is super cheap. Seems to negate a lot of the sedating effects from combining adaptogens.

When you make eggs, make sure you use enough oil to prevent your digestion from slowing you down.

[X_Danny_X]

i see, so i guess i was reading it wrong. i thought you wanted your neurons to fire as much as possible for cognitive and memory improvement to happen.

my brain feels my heavy now. dense too. i feel this is working for me now. is this is what you feel when you say a nootropic or a combo is working? one of my eyes is tingling on and off.

i will try to add zinc though my wallet is low on money. what foods contain a good amount of zinc?
i boil my eggs so i dont use oil at all, does boiling the eggs make a difference in speeding up digestion? i used too eat my eggs raw but read reports about the protein not being absorb by the body when eating it raw.

Bacopa is going to be replaced by Ashwagandha. It does help me sleep but man I feel like was neutered. Does Ashwagandha help long term memory?

Edited by X_Danny_X, 30 November 2011 - 04:40 PM.

[thedevinroy]

i see, so i guess i was reading it wrong. i thought you wanted your neurons to fire as much as possible for cognitive and memory improvement to happen.

my brain feels my heavy now. dense too. i feel this is working for me now. is this is what you feel when you say a nootropic or a combo is working?

i will try to add zinc though my wallet is low on money. what foods contain a good amount of zinc?
i boil my eggs so i dont use oil at all, does boiling the eggs make a difference in speeding up digestion? i used too eat my eggs raw but read reports about the protein not being absorb by the body when eating it raw.

Bacopa is going to be replaced by Ashwagandha. It does help me sleep but man I feel like was neutered. Does Ashwagandha help long term memory?

NMDA receptors are unlike AMPA in that they are not quick-gated channels. They are both glutamate receptors and are found all over the brain, in far more quantity than dopamine receptors. Blocking (some) NMDA receptors causes a neurological response over time that is beneficial. Certain NMDA antagonists actually only dampen unusual signalling (like Huperzine A), others block small signalling (like magnesium), and others block normal signalling (like rhyncophylline). Depending on the concentration, even NMDA antagonists made to dampen unusual signalling can block normal functions.

Basically, magnesium and zinc are required for healthy function and to prevent excitotoxicity. Other compounds assist or replace their function. You need a proper balance of NMDA agonism vs. antagonism... and it is different for everybody. Everyone needs some NMDA antagonism, otherwise you'd get seizures, ticks, or bipolar disorder. Rapid firing isn't necessarily a good thing when you have no control.

Ashwagandha increases BDNF, so in theory it should help with learning and long term memory.

Zinc Sources: http://www.nal.usda....st/sr20w309.pdf (beans, turkey, beef, cereal are good kosher sources)

Some people feel slowed down by eggs. The common misconception is that it is the choline in the eggs, which in all actuality is not the case (with few exceptions). The problem with eggs is that they are high in fat and cholesterol. Eating eggs with oil will actually help digestion by moving the fat along, thereby preventing lethargy from grease overload.

Edited by devinthayer, 30 November 2011 - 05:57 PM.

[AbolishtheState]

Depends...

I keep watching for unique effects or little overlap of effects that make it worth while to add more than two in combination, vs. increasing dosage, but have yet to find it. There are a lot of compounds and information out there, so I accept that I could easily be wrong. My goals aren't for nootropic purposes, solely, so that may differ with others here as well.

I have thought of doing a little mix of all those that sound both beneficial and safe, but I seem to always come back to relying on studied dosages and safety profile. Have you found any subjective or studied benefits to going with a combo?

A few possible reasons to take small doses of many adaptogens versus a larger dose of one are:
-Reduce the possibility and severity of tolerance: I do not believe that the various adaptogens are cross-tolerant so cycling through them should prevent/reduce any tolerance to their effects. I could be wrong, however.
-Cover more bases: different adaptogens have unique methods of action so mixing them should provide more diverse benefits than any single compound could produce.
-Synergistic interactions: As devinthayer has demonstrated theoretically, various adaptogens should work better in tandem than they work on their own. One compound may help "smooth out the rough edges," or potentiate the effects of another, resulting in greater benefit.

The following is important to consider when looking for a source of cat's claw. From Wikipedia:

There' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncaria_tomentosa']There are two species of Cat's Claw, Uncaria tomentosa and Uncaria guianensis, each having different properties and uses. The two are frequently confused but U. tomentosa is the more heavily researched for medicinal use and immune modulation, while U. guianensis may be more useful for osteoarthritis. U. tomentosa is further divided into two chemotypes with different properties and active compounds, a fact ignored by most manufacturers that can have significant implications on both its use as an alternative medicine and in clinical trials to prove or disprove its efficacy...

U. tomentosa is used in nootropic drugs, as well as in treatment of cancer and HIV infection. It contains several alkaloids that are responsible for its medical effects, as well as tannins and various phytochemicals. The chemotype of the plant determines the dominant type of alkaloid it produces, and thus its properties in vivo. One chemotype has roots which produce mostly the pentacyclic alkaloids that are responsible for the immune-strengthening effects desired by most consumers. The second chemotype produces tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids known as rhynchophylline and isorhynchophylline which counteract the immune-strengthening actions of the pentacyclic alkaloids, reduces the speed and force of the heart's contraction, and in high doses produce ataxia, lack of coordination and sedative effects. Since U. tomentosa comes in at least these two different chemotypes, without chemical testing it is impossible to know which chemical compounds will predominate in a plant collected randomly from a natural setting.

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