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Maintaining Higher Testosterone

testosterone maintain raising hormones work out exercise raise

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#31 misterE

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:24 PM

I think that the key to maintain high androgens is to insure high insulin-sensitivity. Insulin promotes androgen synthesis in numerous ways; it increases LH secretion, it cleaves testosterone from SHBG (promotes free-testosterone), it suppresses aromatase activitiy. Now as men age they become less insulin-sensitive (usually due to high-fat diets and inactivity, and just naturally as we age too), as this happens their insulin is unable to stimulate androgen-synthesis, suppress SHBG and inhibit aromatase. The result is low total and free-testosterone, and excessive estrone/estradiol.

By exercise and eating a low-fat/high-fiber diet (whole-grains, beans, potatoes, bread, vegetables, fruits, etc.) you can completely restore your hormonal balance [1-3]. Vegan men are shown to have about 15% higher levels of testosterone on average compared to men eating the rich western-diet [4]. The reason probably has to do with the enhanced insulin-sensitivity of vegetarians compared to omnivores [5-6]. Vegetarians of course eat much less total and saturated fat (which paralyzes insulin activity) and more oats, beans, barley, whole-grains and vegetables (all foods which promote insulin-sensitivity) [7].


[1] Am J Med. 1985 Jan;78(1):23-7. Effects of a high-complex-carbohydrate, low-fat, low-cholesterol diet on levels of serum lipids and estradiol. Rosenthal MB, Barnard RJ, Rose DP.

[2] Eur J Appl Physiol. 2010 Apr;108(6):1125-31. Influence of dietary carbohydrate intake on the free testosterone: cortisol ratio responses to short-term intensive exercise training. Lane AR, Duke JW, Hackney AC.

[3] Life Sci. 1987 May 4;40(18):1761-8. Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man. Anderson KE, Rosner W, Khan MS.

[4] Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK

[5] Br J Nutr. 2006 Jan;95(1):129-35. Taiwanese vegetarians have higher insulin sensitivity than omnivores. Hung CJ, Huang PC, Li YH.

[6] Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Feb;58(2):312-6. Insulin sensitivity in Chinese ovo-lactovegetarians compared with omnivores. Kuo CS, Lai NS, Ho LT.

[7] Eur J Nutr. 2006 Feb;45(1):52-4. No evidence of insulin resistance in normal weight vegetarians. A case control study. Valachovicová M, Krajcovicová-Kudlácková M, Blazícek P.

Edited by misterE, 27 September 2013 - 11:25 PM.

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#32 jadamgo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:02 PM

If you're thinking about that Clomid test, I'd really suggest using tamoxifen (aka Nolvadex) or, even better, toremifene instead. Clomid has pro-estrogenic effects on the brain. To be politically incorrect, it can make you feel and act like a woman with PMS by activating too many of certain estrogen receptors in your brain. Tamoxifen and toremifene stimulate the testes just like clomid does, but they don't cause the emotional side effects.

As for why toremifene is somewhat better than tamoxifen, it's easier on the liver. Tamoxifen is fine for short periods of time, and since it's easier to find and cheaper to buy, it would work fine for a 1-2 week test. But over the course of several months, tamoxifen may cause a bit of harm to the liver. Toremifene, however, is perfectly safe for the liver. In fact, it's good for the liver because it mimics estrogen's effect of increasing good cholesterol and decreasing bad cholesterol.

Note that any of the above drugs will make your balls grow bigger. It won't be as cool as you might think, especially if you like wearing jeans.

#33 nowayout

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:50 PM

Toremifene pulled me into a deep dark pit of despair, as did Clomifene, so I would not recommend either to anyone who is sensitive to estrogenic effects on the brain or prone to depression or anxiety. Tamoxifen had no such side effect on me.

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#34 robosapiens

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:03 PM

And you could also test this by taking high dose Tongkat Ali for a few days to see if its primary or secondary

#35 jadamgo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

Toremifene pulled me into a deep dark pit of despair, as did Clomifene, so I would not recommend either to anyone who is sensitive to estrogenic effects on the brain or prone to depression or anxiety. Tamoxifen had no such side effect on me.


I'm sorry to hear that happened, and I'm pretty surprised to hear that toremifene would cause emotional sides. Everything I've read so far indicates that this shouldn't happen, but if it happened to you then this is new information.

If you don't mind my asking, how much of each of those drugs were you taking per day, and for about how long?

#36 nowayout

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

Toremifene pulled me into a deep dark pit of despair, as did Clomifene, so I would not recommend either to anyone who is sensitive to estrogenic effects on the brain or prone to depression or anxiety. Tamoxifen had no such side effect on me.


I'm sorry to hear that happened, and I'm pretty surprised to hear that toremifene would cause emotional sides. Everything I've read so far indicates that this shouldn't happen, but if it happened to you then this is new information.


Sorry, my mistake, it wasn't toremifene but raloxifene.

I don't remember the raloxifene dose that cased depression, but I do remember that a single dose did the job, giving me a very bad couple of days. AS for the Clomid dose that made me depressed, it was 12.5 mg for 3 days. It took a while to get over that one, probably due to its very long half life.

#37 fntms

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

I am trying Toremifene for fertility reasons (extremely low to zero sperm count for no particular reason, very probably primary testicular failure; testosterone still decent though...)
I had tried Clomid in the past, with pretty bad depression, loss of libido and no measurable results.
I had to stop the initial 60mg ed toremifene dosage after just one week because it killed libido and erections. No depression though...
This is not similar to Tongkat Ali...which does enhance my libido and is very (too) stimulating overall...(gives me acid reflux)...
Now retrying Toremifene at 15mg every third day. Still notice a drop in libido but obviously not as pronounced.

#38 IronLife

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:43 PM

First of all. T-levels in the 400s are supremely average, but not catastrophically low. It is, however, somewhat unusual to have these levels when you are 18 yrs old.

When I was 27 (I am 30 now) I got a Testosterone test and it registered at 256 so I can empathize with you brother.

At your age I would NOT go pharmaceutical just yet. The first line of defense should be supplements which are in fact very useful, provided that you do this correctly.

D-aspartic acid raises Test by 42% in clinical studies. See here, in lay mans terms: http://www.ergo-log....stosterone.html

FenuGreek extract boosts Test by 26%: http://www.ergo-log....stosterone.html

In addition to this, I recommend you taking an anti-estrogen such as Arimistane (it is legal, OTC). The suppression of estrogen will boost your T-level significantly. Also, cashews and blueberries have natural anti-E qualities, so introduce them heftily into your diet.

Do all of this, which is actually very cheap, for 6 weeks coupled with a weight training program. Then take your test again.

If this does not work then we can go back to the drawing board. Please feel free to PM me with any questions.


#39 IronLife

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:48 PM

I am trying Toremifene for fertility reasons (extremely low to zero sperm count for no particular reason, very probably primary testicular failure; testosterone still decent though...)
I had tried Clomid in the past, with pretty bad depression, loss of libido and no measurable results.
I had to stop the initial 60mg ed toremifene dosage after just one week because it killed libido and erections. No depression though...
This is not similar to Tongkat Ali...which does enhance my libido and is very (too) stimulating overall...(gives me acid reflux)...
Now retrying Toremifene at 15mg every third day. Still notice a drop in libido but obviously not as pronounced.


I agree with you on Clomid. Go to ANY bodybuilding or steroid forum and you will see that Clomid causes extreme emotional disturbances, like crying at chic-flicks. I am a pretty stoic person by nature and Clomid made me an emotional wreck. This is because while it is very effective at increasing Testosterone it also increases one's estrogen quite significantly.

The best SERM is by far Nolvadex, both in efficacy and in terms of sides.

See: http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html

It also rejuvenates blood vessels AND increases HDL (good cholesterol) which is unique among other SERMS.

http://www.ergo-log....vadilation.html

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Edited by IronLife, 12 February 2014 - 03:50 PM.


#40 IronLife

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:00 PM

If you're thinking about that Clomid test, I'd really suggest using tamoxifen (aka Nolvadex) or, even better, toremifene instead. Clomid has pro-estrogenic effects on the brain. To be politically incorrect, it can make you feel and act like a woman with PMS by activating too many of certain estrogen receptors in your brain. Tamoxifen and toremifene stimulate the testes just like clomid does, but they don't cause the emotional side effects.

As for why toremifene is somewhat better than tamoxifen, it's easier on the liver. Tamoxifen is fine for short periods of time, and since it's easier to find and cheaper to buy, it would work fine for a 1-2 week test. But over the course of several months, tamoxifen may cause a bit of harm to the liver. Toremifene, however, is perfectly safe for the liver. In fact, it's good for the liver because it mimics estrogen's effect of increasing good cholesterol and decreasing bad cholesterol.

Note that any of the above drugs will make your balls grow bigger. It won't be as cool as you might think, especially if you like wearing jeans.

I agree with everything you said, except for the cholesterol bit. Nolvadex is the one that increases HDL (good cholesterol) most significantly, not Clomid.

Nolvadex is, however, slightly liver toxic but nevertheless women with breast cancer use it for years on end without severe liver problems so the extent of toxicity, while it surely exists, is questionable.

#41 jadamgo

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:43 PM

Yeah it turns out that despite everything I've read saying toremifene has no emotional side effects, and one month spent on it experiencing none of them, it is in fact capable of causing them at high doses. I had been taking 30mg/day and getting all the desired effects, but I wanted to try a higher dose level. 90mg loading dose on day one. 45mg per day after that.

I work at a TV station, Fox 44, and we often air movies on weekends. I had to air (and thus watch) "Hachi: A Dog's Tale" which is about a dog who loves its owner so much, it waits at a train station for him to come home every day, even for after he dies, and for the 8 years after that until the dog dies himself. Normally, something like this would have made my eyes well up a bit, once or twice, maybe a single tear coming out.

But since this was day 6 of high-dose toremifene, I was crying uncontrollably.
AT WORK.
IN A ROOM WITH 2 OTHER MEN.
WATCHING A MOVIE ABOUT A DOG.
Also, any time that damn ASPCA commercial with "In The Arms Of An Angel" played, which was like 5 times that weekend.

Also I cried 2 other times that week. For the record, I'm an extremely unemotional person and I usually cry roughly once a year. 3 times in a week, plus every ASPCA commercial, makes me the punchline of that Modern Family episode where all the women have their period at the same time.

So the moral is that if you're taking unusually high doses of toremifene, it can cause the same thing to happen as with clomifene. BUT if you take a few days off toremifene, then start back with a lower dose such as 3/4 or 1/2 of what you were taking, it may be completely fine. It took about 3 days for me to get back to normal and when I resumed at 30mg/day there were no problems at all.
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#42 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:36 AM

That is an informative and hilarious post. What was the reaction of the two guys in that were in the room with you?

#43 jadamgo

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

Borderline-autistic-engineer blandly asked if I was crying. I said yes. He said "okay" then turned around and walked away.

Shy-guy-I'm-nice-to-but-have-nothing-in-common-with pretended it wasn't happening, and politely found lots of work that could be done while facing the opposite direction from me. While he usually goes to the bathroom very frequently to (non-)secretly smoke his one-hitter, he waited 45 minutes for the movie to end so he wouldn't have to bump into me going to blow my nose every few minutes.

We still haven't spoken of it, though that's probably because we don't really talk about anything but work anyway. He wants to talk about the latest developments in Android tablets and Windows phones, but I'd prefer discussing football, jokes I stole from twitter, or perhaps even Christina Aguilera.
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#44 fntms

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:57 AM

jadamgo, would you care to share your source for toremifene?
It's quite hard to find actual pharma pills, none of the usual indian sites carry it...
I found mine (liquid) on a "research peptide" site, but wouldn't mind having another source to compare. The anti-E effects seems quite strong (dry skin, sore joints, loss of libido,...) even at low doses.
I the meantime I ordered some tamoxifene from the ADC sister site which still takes VISA (reliablerxpharmacy).
Thanks





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