68 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

Adding in bacopa slowly over the course of the next few months, ~100 mgs morning - ~1g +/-.5g, at night would help balance everything out. I think moving ashwa to mid day is a good idea.

Thank you. I have tried Bacopa and have not noticed any positive benefits, even during the day from improved sleep. I did move the Ashwagandha to mid-day. It was a smart choice. Vertigo from deprenyl is way better controlled now.

[Lufega]

I ordered these Japanese eye drops a while back called sante fx neo. They contain neostigmine, an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. I use it occasionally when my attention span is fading. The effect is mild and not stimulating and all but still very noticeable.

[thedevinroy]

I ordered these Japanese eye drops a while back called sante fx neo. They contain neostigmine, an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. I use it occasionally when my attention span is fading. The effect is mild and not stimulating and all but still very noticeable.

Main Ingredients:

• Neostigmine Methylsulfate
• Taurine
• L-Aspartic Acid K
• Maleic Acid chlorophenylamine
• Ypsilon Amino Capron Acid

I don't know if I should be putting that in my eye...

[HighOrder]

Interesting info about Kratom. where did you get yours from? a lot of people get a motivating effect from opiates. It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate. I had a similar experience with poppy tea.

[thedevinroy]

Interesting info about Kratom. where did you get yours from? a lot of people get a motivating effect from opiates. It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate. I had a similar experience with poppy tea.

The Kratom Source.

Dysthymia would be a type of depression. I don't think I've ever been depressed for no reason. I'm more of an inattentive mind-wanderer and day dreamer. My thoughts paralyze my production. My impulse to feed my imagination is over-bearing at times. My itchiness to do something else literally affects my whole body and mind... eh, not to say I can't get down from self frustration, but that's the scope of the depressive symptoms.

[computeTHIS]

Lithium is just... well a great nootropic at its nootropic dose.

Indeed, I finally decided to order some Lithium Aspartate since people reported more "dulling" or drowsiness with the orotate, plus the Aspartate is actually FDA approved. I look forward to trying it out.

Also, are there any dangers with high-dose vitamin C? I have 1000mg tablets but I'm afraid of taking them very often. One day I took a 1000mg tablet shortly after taking NAC (due to claims that NAC should be supplemented with vitamin C) and then I had pain in my left kidney all next day. I've never had that problem just taking NAC by itself. I'm thinking I took the vitamin C too soon after the NAC (30 min), I probably should have waited the next day to take the vitamin C.

Freaky. Could just be the Vitamin C. Are you prone to kidney stones?

http://www.breathing...showtopic=11097

How much NAC are you taking? They say the ratio should be 1000mg of Vit C to 600mg NAC.

I've had kidney stone before, and I haven't had one in years. Been taking 500mg Vitamin C for a month or so.

It's surprising how cheap lithium is...

I'm not prone to kidney stones, nor is any of my family. It's also 600mg NAC. I'm thinking that if you don't let things dissociate in your system long enough, vitamin C taken too early could cause a mass-wash-out of your system, putting more stress on your kidneys. The concern for NAC seemed to be over a potential build-up of its metabolite(s), and I never found data correlating amounts of NAC to necessary vitamin C intake. For me at least, I think it would be better to take the vitamin C a full day after the NAC, or it could be that 1000mg is simply too much for me in a single dosage.

[gizmobrain]

It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate.

Dysthymia would be a type of depression. I don't think I've ever been depressed for no reason. I'm more of an inattentive mind-wanderer and day dreamer. My thoughts paralyze my production. My impulse to feed my imagination is over-bearing at times. My itchiness to do something else literally affects my whole body and mind... eh, not to say I can't get down from self frustration, but that's the scope of the depressive symptoms.

I can relate to this 100%. Growing up, I was a Winnie the Pooh like crazy. Content, well behaved, smart, but always a day dreamer. In my teens, I started taking pseudoephedrine (mild stimulant) daily for allergies and became a quick witted, procrastinating (yet able to get things done at the last moment), social person; graduated Valedictorian.

When I went to college, I no longer needed to take allergy medicine because I wasn't around my family's cats any more. Also, the material got harder, things weren't as intuitive, and I couldn't talk my way out of late assignments like in high school. Things stopped working right, and I failed out of college 3 times over the next 8 years.

Seems as if most doctors can't wrap their head around the fact that I'm not depressed. They look at the college failure and want to give me SSRI's. (Side note: If I'm depressed because of an emotional reason, shouldn't the doctor recommend therapy instead of stuffing me full of drugs? Aren't anti-depressants supposed to be targeted toward people who are depressed for no reason?) I laugh a lot, smile often, and generally lean towards a realistic nature with a touch of optimism. Does that sound like depression at all?

My main symptoms being: lack of motivation, poor memory, inability to maintain concentration on things that aren't "new" (I can research on the internet for hours, but have a ridiculously hard time reading for any length of time about something uninteresting or that I already know about).

My last doctor only wanted to stick me on amphetamines, even though they were killing me (irritable, high bp, high pulse). I just finally found a doctor who was willing to try Selegiline. I've been on 5mg for 4 days so far. No discernible side effects, and for the most part I feel a little less lethargic, and a touch more attentive.

This thread is of great interest to me. I'm currently trying to establish a regimen. I've got a bunch of stuff on hand that I've picked up over the last 6 months, and I think that a lack of specificity and order has kept me from noticing much of a change. (I kind of just take things at random right now). I also just purchased a months worth of Magnesium L-threonate to try.

I like the Selegiline approach to boosting the dopamine system, but I feel like my norepinephrine system might need a little shove too. I say this because d-amp helped me with concentration, whereas adderall helped with concentration and motivation. I've read that the l-amp salt in adderall helps release norepinephrine. I tried atomoxetine by itself with no success. My theory at the time was that I have so little norepinephrine release without stimulants that it wasn't enough to merely have a re-uptake inhibitor.

So my question is, does anyone think I should keep Selegiline in the MAOI-B range, and then approach the norepinephrine issue with a different supplement (like curcumin or something else)? Or should I push Selegiline into the MAOI-A range?

If this seems like a thread-jack, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere. It seemed on topic since you have Selegiline as part of your regimen and are also asking about curcumin. I thought discussion about the topic may add to your pursuit.

Edited by zrbarnes, 16 December 2011 - 07:35 PM.

[thedevinroy]

It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate.

Dysthymia would be a type of depression. I don't think I've ever been depressed for no reason. I'm more of an inattentive mind-wanderer and day dreamer. My thoughts paralyze my production. My impulse to feed my imagination is over-bearing at times. My itchiness to do something else literally affects my whole body and mind... eh, not to say I can't get down from self frustration, but that's the scope of the depressive symptoms.

I can relate to this 100%. Growing up, I was a Winnie the Pooh like crazy. Content, well behaved, smart, but always a day dreamer. In my teens, I started taking pseudoephedrine (mild stimulant) daily for allergies and became a quick witted, procrastinating (yet able to get things done at the last moment), social person; graduated Valedictorian.

When I went to college, I no longer needed to take allergy medicine because I wasn't around my family's cats any more. Also, the material got harder, things weren't as intuitive, and I couldn't talk my way out of late assignments like in high school. Things stopped working right, and I failed out of college 3 times over the next 8 years.

Seems as if most doctors can't wrap their head around the fact that I'm not depressed. They look at the college failure and want to give me SSRI's. (Side note: If I'm depressed because of an emotional reason, shouldn't the doctor recommend therapy instead of stuffing me full of drugs? Aren't anti-depressants supposed to be targeted toward people who are depressed for no reason?) I laugh a lot, smile often, and generally lean towards a realistic nature with a touch of optimism. Does that sound like depression at all?

My main symptoms being: lack of motivation, poor memory, inability to maintain concentration on things that aren't "new" (I can research on the internet for hours, but have a ridiculously hard time reading for any length of time about something uninteresting or that I already know about).

My last doctor only wanted to stick me on amphetamines, even though they were killing me (irritable, high bp, high pulse). I just finally found a doctor who was willing to try Selegiline. I've been on 5mg for 4 days so far. No discernible side effects, and for the most part I feel a little less lethargic, and a touch more attentive.

This thread is of great interest to me. I'm currently trying to establish a regimen. I've got a bunch of stuff on hand that I've picked up over the last 6 months, and I think that a lack of specificity and order has kept me from noticing much of a change. (I kind of just take things at random right now). I also just purchased a months worth of Magnesium L-threonate to try.

I like the Selegiline approach to boosting the dopamine system, but I feel like my norepinephrine system might need a little shove too. I say this because d-amp helped me with concentration, whereas adderall helped with concentration and motivation. I've read that the l-amp salt in adderall helps release norepinephrine. I tried atomoxetine by itself with no success. My theory at the time was that I have so little norepinephrine release without stimulants that it wasn't enough to merely have a re-uptake inhibitor.

So my question is, does anyone think I should keep Selegiline in the MAOI-B range, and then approach the norepinephrine issue with a different supplement (like curcumin or something else)? Or should I push Selegiline into the MAOI-A range?

If this seems like a thread-jack, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere. It seemed on topic since you have Selegiline as part of your regimen and are also asking about curcumin. I thought discussion about the topic may add to your pursuit.

Damn, dog, you should be a blogger.

Some of your supplements are cocktails. I don't agree with that method, but use it up. Hate to see that stuff go to waste. Gotu Kola is a good "hyperactivity" treatment, but it doesn't do much for me beyond that and using it for sleep. As you have figured out (seeing you have two sleep formulas), sleep is especially important for ADHD.

I'm curious to see how curcumin and oxiracetam work with the Selegiline. Please tell.

As for norepinephrine release and production, I totally agree with you. I really wish there was a stronger herb in that area. Ginkgo has some research. DMAA is so short lived, I literally had to microdose sips for 8 hours to get the "Strattera" effect on focus and anti-apathy. Hordenine seems to enhance it's effects, but again its short duration of action is depressing. I've tried to make my at-home time released pills, but with no success.

I think one of the best ways of attacking this would be for us to try something that increases methylation. Good for the liver, too. Next on my list to try is TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin. If Medieval is correct, increased Methylfolate will cause a biological response that downregulates COMT production.

Gi coupled protein receptor activation.... natural COMT inhibitors ... those are always on my list of things to watch out for.

The one thing I've wanted to try but could never afford is CDP choline. Seems to improve a lot of cognition from what I hear, including increased energy and focus. This may be in part or whole due to uridine mono phosphate. Perhaps that will be a cheaper route for this method.

Edited by devinthayer, 17 December 2011 - 02:07 AM.

[Lufega]

It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate.

Dysthymia would be a type of depression. I don't think I've ever been depressed for no reason. I'm more of an inattentive mind-wanderer and day dreamer. My thoughts paralyze my production. My impulse to feed my imagination is over-bearing at times. My itchiness to do something else literally affects my whole body and mind... eh, not to say I can't get down from self frustration, but that's the scope of the depressive symptoms.

I can relate to this 100%. Growing up, I was a Winnie the Pooh like crazy. Content, well behaved, smart, but always a day dreamer. In my teens, I started taking pseudoephedrine (mild stimulant) daily for allergies and became a quick witted, procrastinating (yet able to get things done at the last moment), social person; graduated Valedictorian.

When I went to college, I no longer needed to take allergy medicine because I wasn't around my family's cats any more. Also, the material got harder, things weren't as intuitive, and I couldn't talk my way out of late assignments like in high school. Things stopped working right, and I failed out of college 3 times over the next 8 years.

Seems as if most doctors can't wrap their head around the fact that I'm not depressed. They look at the college failure and want to give me SSRI's. (Side note: If I'm depressed because of an emotional reason, shouldn't the doctor recommend therapy instead of stuffing me full of drugs? Aren't anti-depressants supposed to be targeted toward people who are depressed for no reason?) I laugh a lot, smile often, and generally lean towards a realistic nature with a touch of optimism. Does that sound like depression at all?

My main symptoms being: lack of motivation, poor memory, inability to maintain concentration on things that aren't "new" (I can research on the internet for hours, but have a ridiculously hard time reading for any length of time about something uninteresting or that I already know about).

My last doctor only wanted to stick me on amphetamines, even though they were killing me (irritable, high bp, high pulse). I just finally found a doctor who was willing to try Selegiline. I've been on 5mg for 4 days so far. No discernible side effects, and for the most part I feel a little less lethargic, and a touch more attentive.

This thread is of great interest to me. I'm currently trying to establish a regimen. I've got a bunch of stuff on hand that I've picked up over the last 6 months, and I think that a lack of specificity and order has kept me from noticing much of a change. (I kind of just take things at random right now). I also just purchased a months worth of Magnesium L-threonate to try.

I like the Selegiline approach to boosting the dopamine system, but I feel like my norepinephrine system might need a little shove too. I say this because d-amp helped me with concentration, whereas adderall helped with concentration and motivation. I've read that the l-amp salt in adderall helps release norepinephrine. I tried atomoxetine by itself with no success. My theory at the time was that I have so little norepinephrine release without stimulants that it wasn't enough to merely have a re-uptake inhibitor.

So my question is, does anyone think I should keep Selegiline in the MAOI-B range, and then approach the norepinephrine issue with a different supplement (like curcumin or something else)? Or should I push Selegiline into the MAOI-A range?

If this seems like a thread-jack, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere. It seemed on topic since you have Selegiline as part of your regimen and are also asking about curcumin. I thought discussion about the topic may add to your pursuit.

Why are you taking fenugreek ? It increases prolactin, which is why women use it to increase milk production while breastfeeding. Prolactin antagonizes dopamine. I guess to demotivate women from doing anything BUT breastfeeding.

[thedevinroy]

It could be dysthymia, not necessarily ADHD-PI, there is a huge overlap, i.e. lethargy, loss of motivation, inability to concentrate.

Dysthymia would be a type of depression. I don't think I've ever been depressed for no reason. I'm more of an inattentive mind-wanderer and day dreamer. My thoughts paralyze my production. My impulse to feed my imagination is over-bearing at times. My itchiness to do something else literally affects my whole body and mind... eh, not to say I can't get down from self frustration, but that's the scope of the depressive symptoms.

I can relate to this 100%. Growing up, I was a Winnie the Pooh like crazy. Content, well behaved, smart, but always a day dreamer. In my teens, I started taking pseudoephedrine (mild stimulant) daily for allergies and became a quick witted, procrastinating (yet able to get things done at the last moment), social person; graduated Valedictorian.

When I went to college, I no longer needed to take allergy medicine because I wasn't around my family's cats any more. Also, the material got harder, things weren't as intuitive, and I couldn't talk my way out of late assignments like in high school. Things stopped working right, and I failed out of college 3 times over the next 8 years.

Seems as if most doctors can't wrap their head around the fact that I'm not depressed. They look at the college failure and want to give me SSRI's. (Side note: If I'm depressed because of an emotional reason, shouldn't the doctor recommend therapy instead of stuffing me full of drugs? Aren't anti-depressants supposed to be targeted toward people who are depressed for no reason?) I laugh a lot, smile often, and generally lean towards a realistic nature with a touch of optimism. Does that sound like depression at all?

My main symptoms being: lack of motivation, poor memory, inability to maintain concentration on things that aren't "new" (I can research on the internet for hours, but have a ridiculously hard time reading for any length of time about something uninteresting or that I already know about).

My last doctor only wanted to stick me on amphetamines, even though they were killing me (irritable, high bp, high pulse). I just finally found a doctor who was willing to try Selegiline. I've been on 5mg for 4 days so far. No discernible side effects, and for the most part I feel a little less lethargic, and a touch more attentive.

This thread is of great interest to me. I'm currently trying to establish a regimen. I've got a bunch of stuff on hand that I've picked up over the last 6 months, and I think that a lack of specificity and order has kept me from noticing much of a change. (I kind of just take things at random right now). I also just purchased a months worth of Magnesium L-threonate to try.

I like the Selegiline approach to boosting the dopamine system, but I feel like my norepinephrine system might need a little shove too. I say this because d-amp helped me with concentration, whereas adderall helped with concentration and motivation. I've read that the l-amp salt in adderall helps release norepinephrine. I tried atomoxetine by itself with no success. My theory at the time was that I have so little norepinephrine release without stimulants that it wasn't enough to merely have a re-uptake inhibitor.

So my question is, does anyone think I should keep Selegiline in the MAOI-B range, and then approach the norepinephrine issue with a different supplement (like curcumin or something else)? Or should I push Selegiline into the MAOI-A range?

If this seems like a thread-jack, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere. It seemed on topic since you have Selegiline as part of your regimen and are also asking about curcumin. I thought discussion about the topic may add to your pursuit.

Why are you taking fenugreek ? It increases prolactin, which is why women use it to increase milk production while breastfeeding. Prolactin antagonizes dopamine. I guess to demotivate women from doing anything BUT breastfeeding.

From what I understand, it is a pretty balanced herb. Though it does increase prolactin, it also seems to increase libido...

[gizmobrain]

Damn, dog, you should be a blogger.

Some of your supplements are cocktails. I don't agree with that method, but use it up. Hate to see that stuff go to waste. Gotu Kola is a good "hyperactivity" treatment, but it doesn't do much for me beyond that and using it for sleep. As you have figured out (seeing you have two sleep formulas), sleep is especially important for ADHD.

I'm curious to see how curcumin and oxiracetam work with the Selegiline. Please tell.

As for norepinephrine release and production, I totally agree with you. I really wish there was a stronger herb in that area. Ginkgo has some research. DMAA is so short lived, I literally had to microdose sips for 8 hours to get the "Strattera" effect on focus and anti-apathy. Hordenine seems to enhance it's effects, but again its short duration of action is depressing. I've tried to make my at-home time released pills, but with no success.

I think one of the best ways of attacking this would be for us to try something that increases methylation. Good for the liver, too. Next on my list to try is TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin. If Medieval is correct, increased Methylfolate will cause a biological response that downregulates COMT production.

Gi coupled protein receptor activation.... natural COMT inhibitors ... those are always on my list of things to watch out for.

The one thing I've wanted to try but could never afford is CDP choline. Seems to improve a lot of cognition from what I hear, including increased energy and focus. This may be in part or whole due to uridine mono phosphate. Perhaps that will be a cheaper route for this method.

Haha, yeah I get a little carried away about this stuff. No one around me wants to hear it, so I just keep all these facts and experiences bottled up inside my head until I get time to write them down.

The cocktails of supplements were purchases early in my quest. Since learning more about the individual components, I've tried to stick with stand-alone's so that I can more adequately gauge what's working. It's still tough to tell; so many variables. I rarely "feel" much of anything from any supplement so it's hard to gauge (Even Nuvigil has seemingly no effect, Strattera had a very weak effect, and Ritalin only made me nauseous and a bit chatty). I've taken piracetam, aniracetam, and oxiracetam without any real tangible proof that they had much effect (I feel like my speech was somewhat more articulate). At times, its enough to make me wonder if my body is properly metabolizing the majority of the drugs/supplements I throw at it, or if I'm not actually out in the "real world" enough to gauge the improvements.

I feel like I should do some more research on DMAA. I took it nearly exclusively at 20mg at 3 times a day for a couple months when I went off of Adderall the last time. I'm not a fan of the idea of stimulants, but it seemed to do an excellent job at putting some pep in my step (and clearing out my eternally half-stuffed nose) without over stimulating. It seemed to come on fast, but not too strong. I even kind of liked the fact that it didn't stay in my system for a long time, so that I could take one early evening, if needed, without insomnia. It didn't make me irritable like Adderall, nor did it give me the extreme tunnel vision. I still have about 20 capsules left... might have to pop them open and try a smaller dose to see how it fairs in combination with Selegiline. What brand/dose of DMAA were you taking?

The closest I've gotten to experimenting anything with methylation was when I found a box of SAMe on clearance at Walgreens. Though I did feel a bit more peppy, it was another one of those "too close to call" situations (i.e. was it placebo?). You've sparked my interest again though. Let us know if you try TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin.

Every time I try to shop for choline precursors, I end up buying Acetyl-L-Carnitine. So many differing opinions about the subject. I suppose I should just suck it up and branch out.

Thanks to this thread, I'm now interested in PQQ and Kratom. I guess the good thing about not having a job is that it helps me to not spend all my money on supplements.

Why are you taking fenugreek ? It increases prolactin, which is why women use it to increase milk production while breastfeeding. Prolactin antagonizes dopamine. I guess to demotivate women from doing anything BUT breastfeeding.

From what I understand, it is a pretty balanced herb. Though it does increase prolactin, it also seems to increase libido...

To be honest, I had read an article detailing several health benefits (including its ability to increase libido) about Fenugreek the night before I walked into a VitaminWorld outlet that had everything on sale. It was $3 for a huge bottle, so I bought it. I don't take it very often.

[gizmobrain]

Damn, dog, you should be a blogger.

Some of your supplements are cocktails. I don't agree with that method, but use it up. Hate to see that stuff go to waste. Gotu Kola is a good "hyperactivity" treatment, but it doesn't do much for me beyond that and using it for sleep. As you have figured out (seeing you have two sleep formulas), sleep is especially important for ADHD.

I'm curious to see how curcumin and oxiracetam work with the Selegiline. Please tell.

As for norepinephrine release and production, I totally agree with you. I really wish there was a stronger herb in that area. Ginkgo has some research. DMAA is so short lived, I literally had to microdose sips for 8 hours to get the "Strattera" effect on focus and anti-apathy. Hordenine seems to enhance it's effects, but again its short duration of action is depressing. I've tried to make my at-home time released pills, but with no success.

I think one of the best ways of attacking this would be for us to try something that increases methylation. Good for the liver, too. Next on my list to try is TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin. If Medieval is correct, increased Methylfolate will cause a biological response that downregulates COMT production.

Gi coupled protein receptor activation.... natural COMT inhibitors ... those are always on my list of things to watch out for.

The one thing I've wanted to try but could never afford is CDP choline. Seems to improve a lot of cognition from what I hear, including increased energy and focus. This may be in part or whole due to uridine mono phosphate. Perhaps that will be a cheaper route for this method.

Haha, yeah I get a little carried away about this stuff. No one around me wants to hear it, so I just keep all these facts and experiences bottled up inside my head until I get time to write them down.

The cocktails of supplements were purchases early in my quest. Since learning more about the individual components, I've tried to stick with stand-alone's so that I can more adequately gauge what's working. It's still tough to tell; so many variables. I rarely "feel" much of anything from any supplement so it's hard to gauge (Even Nuvigil has seemingly no effect, Strattera had a very weak effect, and Ritalin only made me nauseous and a bit chatty). I've taken piracetam, aniracetam, and oxiracetam without any real tangible proof that they had much effect (I feel like my speech was somewhat more articulate). At times, its enough to make me wonder if my body is properly metabolizing the majority of the drugs/supplements I throw at it, or if I'm not actually out in the "real world" enough to gauge the improvements.

I just read some more about Curcumin. Some studies say it only effects serotonin and dopamine, while others say serotonin and norepinephrine. I might continue to take it because of it's other benefits, as long as it doesn't cause side effects with the Selegiline.

I feel like I should do some more research on DMAA. I took it nearly exclusively at 20mg at 3 times a day for a couple months when I went off of Adderall the last time. I'm not a fan of the idea of stimulants, but it seemed to do an excellent job at putting some pep in my step (and clearing out my eternally half-stuffed nose) without over stimulating. It seemed to come on fast, but not too strong. I even kind of liked the fact that it didn't stay in my system for a long time, so that I could take one early evening, if needed, without insomnia. It didn't make me irritable like Adderall, nor did it give me the extreme tunnel vision. I still have about 20 capsules left... might have to pop them open and try a smaller dose to see how it fairs in combination with Selegiline. What brand/dose of DMAA were you taking?

The closest I've gotten to experimenting anything with methylation was when I found a box of SAMe on clearance at Walgreens. Though I did feel a bit more peppy, it was another one of those "too close to call" situations (i.e. was it placebo?). You've sparked my interest again though. Let us know if you try TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin.

Every time I try to shop for choline precursors, I end up buying Acetyl-L-Carnitine. So many differing opinions about the subject. I suppose I should just suck it up and branch out.

Thanks to this thread, I'm now interested in PQQ and Kratom. I guess the good thing about not having a job right now is that it helps me to not spend all my money on supplements. Ha.

Why are you taking fenugreek ? It increases prolactin, which is why women use it to increase milk production while breastfeeding. Prolactin antagonizes dopamine. I guess to demotivate women from doing anything BUT breastfeeding.

From what I understand, it is a pretty balanced herb. Though it does increase prolactin, it also seems to increase libido...

To be honest, I had read an article detailing several health benefits (including its ability to increase libido) about Fenugreek the night before I walked into a VitaminWorld outlet that had everything on sale. It was $3 for a huge bottle, so I bought it. I don't take it very often.

Edited by zrbarnes, 17 December 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Haha, yeah I get a little carried away about this stuff. No one around me wants to hear it, so I just keep all these facts and experiences bottled up inside my head until I get time to write them down.

The cocktails of supplements were purchases early in my quest. Since learning more about the individual components, I've tried to stick with stand-alone's so that I can more adequately gauge what's working. It's still tough to tell; so many variables. I rarely "feel" much of anything from any supplement so it's hard to gauge (Even Nuvigil has seemingly no effect, Strattera had a very weak effect, and Ritalin only made me nauseous and a bit chatty). I've taken piracetam, aniracetam, and oxiracetam without any real tangible proof that they had much effect (I feel like my speech was somewhat more articulate). At times, its enough to make me wonder if my body is properly metabolizing the majority of the drugs/supplements I throw at it, or if I'm not actually out in the "real world" enough to gauge the improvements.

I haven't tried those racetams, only Pramiracetam. I noticed an extreme desire to learn, but not much else... some verbal fluency in writing. I was considering Oxiracetam, since it is quite comparable to Piracetam, but stronger and less anxiolytic per dose. I'm a generally pretty self-apathetic person, so I wasn't looking for anything anxiolytic.

If you are having trouble with metabolism or pre-tolerance, pay more attention to the metabolism of the drugs. That's why I was considering curcumin. It inhibits an enzyme that metabolizes Selegiline and metabolites. Modafinil, Adrafinil, and Armodafinil are generally a huge black hole. They contradict so many medication because they increase liver enzymes that they themselves are not a substrate of... if you aren't narcoleptic or constantly travelling, I would stay away from that class of drugs.

I just read some more about Curcumin. Some studies say it only effects serotonin and dopamine, while others say serotonin and norepinephrine. I might continue to take it because of it's other benefits, as long as it doesn't cause side effects with the Selegiline.

Curcumin is a MAO-A inhibitor, so it does by definition raise dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. It crosses the blood brain barrier. It also has an inhibitory effect on glutamate release from Potassium channel blockade (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21741425) which basically makes it a calcium channel regulator. Unfortunately, it also seems to increase cAMP (by increasing Adenyl Cyclase, possibly by 5-HT1A,1B,7 inhibition) under stress-related tests for rats though did not say what parts of the brain (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19302828)... so it's potentially a bit of a hypocrite as an ADHD treatment, but it may still have potential if it balances thing properly. This may be nothing to worry about, as it may just be a sign of an adaptogenic attribute.

I feel like I should do some more research on DMAA. I took it nearly exclusively at 20mg at 3 times a day for a couple months when I went off of Adderall the last time. I'm not a fan of the idea of stimulants, but it seemed to do an excellent job at putting some pep in my step (and clearing out my eternally half-stuffed nose) without over stimulating. It seemed to come on fast, but not too strong. I even kind of liked the fact that it didn't stay in my system for a long time, so that I could take one early evening, if needed, without insomnia. It didn't make me irritable like Adderall, nor did it give me the extreme tunnel vision. I still have about 20 capsules left... might have to pop them open and try a smaller dose to see how it fairs in combination with Selegiline. What brand/dose of DMAA were you taking?

I could take it and go to sleep. It was not a bad supplement, I just didn't have the right time release for it to last all day. I got it from eBay in powdered form from Byobss or something.

The closest I've gotten to experimenting anything with methylation was when I found a box of SAMe on clearance at Walgreens. Though I did feel a bit more peppy, it was another one of those "too close to call" situations (i.e. was it placebo?). You've sparked my interest again though. Let us know if you try TMG and Methylfolate/Methylcobalamin.

SAMe is definitely the effect of combining NAC and TMG. Precursors tend to last a little longer and sometimes provide greater benefits overall.

Every time I try to shop for choline precursors, I end up buying Acetyl-L-Carnitine. So many differing opinions about the subject. I suppose I should just suck it up and branch out.

ALCAR is pretty darn awesome in terms of mental capacity. I really liked it. It does contain a readily transferable acetyl group, so it may cause fatigue in higher doses from downstream lactic acid accumulation. Citric acid, vinegar, malic acid, etc. will all reverse that effect by stimulating the citric acid cycle. Apple cider vinegar is probably the fastest tonic in that department.

Thanks to this thread, I'm now interested in PQQ and Kratom. I guess the good thing about not having a job right now is that it helps me to not spend all my money on supplements. Ha.

Kratom is a nice weekend drink. It actually doesn't taste all that bad. It's between green tea and chamomile I guess.

PQQ is quite intriguing. I'm more considering taking it for life extension, not so much for cognition.

To be honest, I had read an article detailing several health benefits (including its ability to increase libido) about Fenugreek the night before I walked into a VitaminWorld outlet that had everything on sale. It was $3 for a huge bottle, so I bought it. I don't take it very often.

Yeah don't worry about it unless you start getting nipple sensitivity or some strange unlikely side effect from estrogen dominance.

[StarMitten20818]

Adding in bacopa slowly over the course of the next few months, ~100 mgs morning - ~1g +/-.5g, at night would help balance everything out. I think moving ashwa to mid day is a good idea.

Thank you. I have tried Bacopa and have not noticed any positive benefits, even during the day from improved sleep. I did move the Ashwagandha to mid-day. It was a smart choice. Vertigo from deprenyl is way better controlled now.

How long did you try bacopa for? It really takes quite a while to settle in imo. I ran out after a year of daily use at ~1-2g and felt its depletion from my cell reserves begin after a few weeks or so. I had taken ash for about the expo third of that year; wish i still had ash, however, the ever present grounded state of existence i get from bacopa matters more to me than the diligence i get from ash. Rhodiola gives me all the boost i need anyways lol.

Also Oxiracetam is great. I mix aniracetam in peanut butter, oxiracetam in my yerba mate tea, and piracetam in my water/everything else i can mix it in...good times:)

[thedevinroy]

Adding in bacopa slowly over the course of the next few months, ~100 mgs morning - ~1g +/-.5g, at night would help balance everything out. I think moving ashwa to mid day is a good idea.

Thank you. I have tried Bacopa and have not noticed any positive benefits, even during the day from improved sleep. I did move the Ashwagandha to mid-day. It was a smart choice. Vertigo from deprenyl is way better controlled now.

How long did you try bacopa for? It really takes quite a while to settle in imo. I ran out after a year of daily use at ~1-2g and felt its depletion from my cell reserves begin after a few weeks or so. I had taken ash for about the expo third of that year; wish i still had ash, however, the ever present grounded state of existence i get from bacopa matters more to me than the diligence i get from ash. Rhodiola gives me all the boost i need anyways lol.

Also Oxiracetam is great. I mix aniracetam in peanut butter, oxiracetam in my yerba mate tea, and piracetam in my water/everything else i can mix it in...good times:)

I tried Bacopa for about two months, maybe three. Didn't get grounded, but I did get tired... it was a 20% extract, and I sometimes would take as much as 400mg before bed, though I brought it down to 200mg and still felt zonked the next day. I probably would have done okay on 50mg, but I gave it to a friend to help with detox.

[thedevinroy]

UPDATE ON REGIMEN

Morning:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Jiaogulan (95%): 100mg
• Schizandra (dried, whole): 1500mg
• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 450mg
• Methylene Blue: 3mg
• Vitamin C: 500mg (to activate MB)
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg
• Zinc (Gluconate): 12.5mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [Protein Breakfast] + Green Tea

Mid-Day:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Jiaogulan (95%): 100mg
• Schizandra (dried, whole): 1500mg
• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 450mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [500 Calorie Lunch]

Night:

• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 900mg
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg

Notice I did not add the Kratom. I experience a crash the next day from it consistently.

I would take Jiaogulan before bed, too, since it does bring down blood pressure, but I only have as many capsules as I use DL-Phenylalanine (since I take it sublingually ... I put the Huperzine A, pinebark, and Jiaogulan in the same capsule). Jiaogulan smells like cow manure... and tastes bitter as all hell. My dumbass bought a powdered form. Meh, at least it keeps blood pressure down during the day.

I also cut way back on Coffee and caffeine in general. I found it was the culprit for worsening vertigo from Selegiline.

As always, sleep is a huge factor. I try to sleep 8 hours every night, and when I don't, I feel it in the early morn and the night.

[Lufega]

When I started doing intermittent fasting (fasting 9 pm to 1 pm), I noticed a significant improvement in daytime concentration and focus. My memory also started to improved noticeably over time. All this was mediated by increased secretions of the hormone Ghrelin. It's also the same hormone that causes hunger but a little green tea in the morning took care of that. You should look into that. Some of the things ghrelin can do (like increasing hippocampal neurogenesis) are very impressive. It's also free. Just don't eat. Some supps. can also enhance ghrelin secretion if you want to take it further, like zinc, ferulic acid and coconut oil.

[hippocampus]

@devinthayer: did you check your vitamin D levels?

[gizmobrain]

UPDATE ON REGIMEN

Thanks for the update. How's it working for you?

I've cut back the randomness of my regimen to more adequately gauge what is and isn't working, and I'm currently attempting to figure out where to go from here. The Magnesium L-Threonate should be in the mail today, too.

When I started doing intermittent fasting (fasting 9 pm to 1 pm), I noticed a significant improvement in daytime concentration and focus.

I've been meaning to research fasting for a while now. With the selegiline, I feel like I need to eat a fatty breakfast and lunch for it to absorb right, but a lot of times I'm not hungry for dinner, so I could fast from time to time. I don't snack much any more at all, so that's not a big issue.

Edited by zrbarnes, 21 December 2011 - 04:37 PM.

[thedevinroy]

TODAY IN THE LIFE OF DEVIN THAYER...

Morning:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Jiaogulan (95%): 100mg
• Schizandra (dried, whole): 1500mg
• Ginkgo Biloba (24/6/5): 120mg
• Methylene Blue: 3mg
• Vitamin C: 500mg (to activate MB)
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg
• Zinc (Gluconate): 12.5mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [No Breakfast] + Green Tea

Had some Christmas sweets later on...

Mid-Day:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Jiaogulan (95%): 100mg
• Schizandra (dried, whole): 1500mg
• Ginkgo Biloba (24/6/5): 120mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [500 Calorie Lunch]

No zinc, just Fish Oil and caffeine to kill the mid-afternoon crash. Too much zinc is really inhibiting. I can't believe people say Fish Oil doesn't do anything. It always helps me think. Maybe it has to do with digestion...

Tonight (and Last Night):

• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 900mg
• Ginkgo Biloba (24/6/5): 120mg
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg

Tried this variation today. Replaced the Gotu Kola with Ginkgo. Vertigo actually was terrible today, and I was very antsy and tired at the same time. Blood pressure was higher, too. Looks like the Gotu Kola was doing something positive after all, even at half the dose. I will keep the Ginkgo, as I feel it blends everything together quite well as well as increase circulation to my fingertips, which I need for typing.

Not that any of you need to know, but I did pretty well today without food in my intestines. I had chocolate cake today, and it might have well been inserted rectally because it wasn't 30 minutes later after having a serving (2x today actually) that it was ejected in full force. Now having supper, I feel a lot more like a human. Mmm... rice...

Edited by devinthayer, 22 December 2011 - 01:02 AM.

[thedevinroy]

When I started doing intermittent fasting (fasting 9 pm to 1 pm), I noticed a significant improvement in daytime concentration and focus. My memory also started to improved noticeably over time. All this was mediated by increased secretions of the hormone Ghrelin. It's also the same hormone that causes hunger but a little green tea in the morning took care of that. You should look into that. Some of the things ghrelin can do (like increasing hippocampal neurogenesis) are very impressive. It's also free. Just don't eat. Some supps. can also enhance ghrelin secretion if you want to take it further, like zinc, ferulic acid and coconut oil.

Well... I'm a pretty hungry guy before noon... so I probably get plenty of Ghrelin.

Green tea has catechin analogues that agonize cannabanoid receptors. I must be immune to the caffeine, because green tea makes me hungry as a Walrus in front of a school of fish in a head on collision.

[thedevinroy]

@devinthayer: did you check your vitamin D levels?

Not yet... my mother and sister have low levels, so I'm hoping it's a chick thing and skipped me.

[thedevinroy]

UPDATE ON REGIMEN

Thanks for the update. How's it working for you?

I've cut back the randomness of my regimen to more adequately gauge what is and isn't working, and I'm currently attempting to figure out where to go from here. The Magnesium L-Threonate should be in the mail today, too.

When I started doing intermittent fasting (fasting 9 pm to 1 pm), I noticed a significant improvement in daytime concentration and focus.

I've been meaning to research fasting for a while now. With the selegiline, I feel like I need to eat a fatty breakfast and lunch for it to absorb right, but a lot of times I'm not hungry for dinner, so I could fast from time to time. I don't snack much any more at all, so that's not a big issue.

Let me know how the MgT works out.

Does curcumin enhance Selegiline or worsen its side effects?

[ramon25]

What brand of the jiaogulan do you use? I am looking at the planatery herbals and the paradise herbs. paradise herbs is cheaper which makes me wonder of its quality.

[thedevinroy]

What brand of the jiaogulan do you use? I am looking at the planatery herbals and the paradise herbs. paradise herbs is cheaper which makes me wonder of its quality.

That's not always true. It depends where they buy the extract, who does it etc. Cheap labor and ingredients can still compete with the more expensive stuff. In fact, looking on Vitacost, I saw those two bottles come up, and out of those two, I can say that the Paradise Herbs one (12:1) is the one to go with. It contains 75mg of gypenosides, versus the 37.5mg in the other extract. Cheaper for the win, doubting Thomas.

EDIT:
If you really want something strong, go with the Solaray brand. It's a 98% extract at 410mg plus 100mg raw powder.

EDIT:
I got mine from Beyond a Century. It's 95% powder - not capsules, and it smells like a dairy farm. Get capsules or cap it yourself. 50mg is enough to notice, but more stuff is even stronger in effects.

Edited by devinthayer, 22 December 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Let me know how the MgT works out.

Does curcumin enhance Selegiline or worsen its side effects?

I upped selegiline to 10mg/day about a week ago, about the same time I started taking the Curcumin. Drive and concentration seem to be up. I've been more productive this week then in a long while, but still not where I'd want to be. I've noticed an increase in mild headaches this week (though I have had some minor sinus pressure here and there, too). I think I'm going to give things about a week more to even out, then I'm going to have to do some variable controls to see about the curcumin/selegiline combo.

The MagT is infinitely better feeling in the digestive department than MagOx. No laxative effect, no stomach growling, nothing. Not sure about it's effects (just started taking it yesterday), but I did feel calm(?) about an hour after taking it last night. Don't know if that was the MagT or the selegiline metabolites wearing off (I'm guessing the latter). 3 capsules provide 144mg of Elemental Magnesium, so right now I'm wondering if I should take one with breakfast, lunch, and bedtime, or if I take them on an empty stomach would increase absorption (upon waking, afternoon, and bedtime).

Went to the local health store today to see about that Solaray Jiaogulan. They don't stock it, sadly, but they can order it. I'll probably get it off the 'net.

I did pick up a bottle of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar. I'll have to see about incorporating that into the regimen as well. Any ideas?

Also, I know you are all for Hup A, and I've debated about it for a long time. Got any opinions on Hup A vs. Memantine? I have a bottle of dextromethorpan capsules in the cabinet, as well. Haven't ever played around with NMDA Antagonists or AChE Inhibitors.

Edited by zrbarnes, 22 December 2011 - 06:58 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Let me know how the MgT works out.

Does curcumin enhance Selegiline or worsen its side effects?

I upped selegiline to 10mg/day about a week ago, about the same time I started taking the Curcumin. Drive and concentration seem to be up. I've been more productive this week then in a long while, but still not where I'd want to be. I've noticed an increase in mild headaches this week (though I have had some minor sinus pressure here and there, too). I think I'm going to give things about a week more to even out, then I'm going to have to do some variable controls to see about the curcumin/selegiline combo.

The MagT is infinitely better feeling in the digestive department than MagOx. No laxative effect, no stomach growling, nothing. Not sure about it's effects (just started taking it yesterday), but I did feel calm(?) about an hour after taking it last night. Don't know if that was the MagT or the selegiline metabolites wearing off (I'm guessing the latter). 3 capsules provide 144mg of Elemental Magnesium, so right now I'm wondering if I should take one with breakfast, lunch, and bedtime, or if I take them on an empty stomach would increase absorption (upon waking, afternoon, and bedtime).

Went to the local health store today to see about that Solaray Jiaogulan. They don't stock it, sadly, but they can order it. I'll probably get it off the 'net.

I did pick up a bottle of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar. I'll have to see about incorporating that into the regimen as well. Any ideas?

Also, I know you are all for Hup A, and I've debated about it for a long time. Got any opinions on Hup A vs. Memantine? I have a bottle of dextromethorpan capsules in the cabinet, as well. Haven't ever played around with NMDA Antagonists or AChE Inhibitors.

Well I'm glad you saw some pretty positive benefits from Selegiline.

MgT sounds great. I would take it 3x a day, or even 2x a day... apart from any mineral supplements to increase absorption.

Vinegar is great to reduce lactic acid and fight choline fog (if you get it).

Huperzine A, Memantine, Adamantine etc. have to be started slowly, but eventually your body grows used to it. Start at a quarter dose one week, next week a half, next week the full dose. After about a three month period, try a double dose and see if it fits you. For instance, Huperzine A can be taken 50mcg the first week, 100 mcg the next, 200mcg the week after, and 400mcg a few months after that.

It's a hormesis effect for the most part, though there are some different effects with all of them. I feel as though Huperzine A is the safest supplement out of the AChE inhbitors and NMDA antagonists.

[gizmobrain]

The MagT has a definite "feel" to it, though I'm bad at characterizing it. I have about a half hour stretch of "calmness". When it first hits, it also does something weird to my sense of perception, but it wears off after about 5 minutes.

I've noticed it at least 3 times since I've started taking it. So far, it hasn't been unpleasant. Just... interesting.

Think the altered perception relates to NMDA action? I'm not well versed enough to have a hypothesis. If so, I'm wondering if this is a good or a bad thing.

Just ordered some Solaray Jiaogulan. Next up is figuring out which Hup-A, TMG and Methyl B vitamins to order, and whether or not I should reorder my Primaforce Dimethylamylamine, or if I should try DL-Phenylalanine instead. Decisions, decisions...

Edited by zrbarnes, 27 December 2011 - 12:07 AM.

[Valor5]

You take zinc but I don't see the copper that should go with it. Have you accounted for that?

[gizmobrain]

I got around to finally picking up some Ashwagandha, Jiaogulan, Zinc, DL-Phenylalanine, and Hup-A. Still haven't found a decent stack that clears my head of the fog or gets me motivated in the morning, but I have had a head cold that's gotten in the way of my experimenting. My cognitive abilities have always seemed to be inversely proportional to the amount of mucus in my head.

I'm also wondering about the zinc too. You mention vertigo, which happens when I take zinc on anything but an absolutely full stomach. Or at least, it's what I understand vertigo to feel like: the world is spinning, feel off balance, and slightly nauseous.

Switching gears:

Before Selegiline, I would take 20-60mg of Adderall, with massive side effects. The other day, I started with 5mg Selegiline for breakfast. After getting a little frustrated with apathy and head fog, I decided to see what the Adderall/Selegiline combination would do. At lunch, I took another 5mg Selegiline and roughly 5mg Adderall XR. 15 minutes later, my head was clear, my leg was tapping, and I was finally able to get done what I needed to get done, without issue. Furthermore, I had virtually none of the previous side effects.

I want to get away from the Adderall for good because I don't like what it does in the long run, but clearly there is something essential that it is able to do that all the caffeine, DLPA, Tyrosine, Curcumin, Ashwagandha, and -racetams in the world can't seem to fix. I feel like my ability to function in the "real world" hinges on me figuring out this mystery. The more time goes on, the more I think I must have some sort of underactive or overactive enzyme that doesn't process something right.

I still plan on ordering some TMG and Methyl B vitamins soon and seeing how that goes.