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Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)


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#751 hav

  • Location:Cape Cod
  • no

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:39 AM

Near the start of this thread the thinking was mixing with saline was the best way to go. I did my first 1 year batch that way. Later, about a 5% alcohol/distilled water mix was recommended to help preserve the peptide. So I've been doing my 2nd year that way and don't notice any difference in conscience effect. Also tried nasal administration with a metered dispenser that originally contained Astepro but my wife didn't like the nasal drip effect. I noticed a little increase in conscience effect taking it that way but my wife and I have been sticking to the drops under the tongue. I mix for 2.5 mg/drop and take 2.

Fwiw, I also tried it once in my eye dissolved in contact lens solution. It really stings.

Howard

Edited by hav, 05 August 2013 - 01:41 AM.

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#752 Authentic Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Canada
  • yes

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:45 AM

Thanks for sharing that Howard! Bacteriostatic water is usually nothing but sterile water with a bit of sterile alcohol in it (in most instances). So, it's probably the best way to recon this peptide. Sodium Chloride Bac water is another option but at these tiny injection doses there is no need for the SC. SC typically can make injections more buffered if that makes any sense. For larger injections it is really nice to use SC.

Howard are you feeling the tremendous "super tired" melatonin release from it normally? I'm wondering if this would be a good possible treatment for Jet Lag.

Edited by Authentic, 05 August 2013 - 01:46 AM.

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#753 hav Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Cape Cod
  • no

Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:33 AM

Kicked around the idea of using methylene blue instead of vodka but I don't have any handy.

The biggest overt effect I notice is more vivid dreaming. Not like an acid trip or anything but a little more color and clarity that usual. More HD. Cycle it every other week and the vivid dreaming cycles with it. I asked my wife but she says she always has vivid dreaming. Maybe Adam Carolla might say epithalon put me 50 years ahead of schedule.

Howard
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#754 sciwalk Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Hong Kong

Posted 05 August 2013 - 03:59 AM

Hi,

Sorry, I know there has been a lot of questions asked and sorry that I am slow to respond. I just am really busy so don't get to get back to this thread as often as I would like.

Let me clear the air about a few things that I keep seeing pop up.

Alcohol - This is only added to the water, after mixing, at the 4 to 7% range, to help stave off bacterial build up while the peptide is being stored in your fridge waiting to be used.
In the beginning there was light and the light was good, oops, wrong story. In the beginning (before I was involved with the actual synthesis and manufacturing of peptides and enzymes, and wanted to share the information I had found out about AEDG, I tried adding it directly to straight Vodka thinking that it would help in the absorption of the peptide. I shared that information but shortly there after changed that information stating that adding the peptide directly to alcohol will cause it to clump together. That is why you must mix with water first, then add the alcohol.
Once again, the amount of alcohol is based on the original idea of people only taking as little (potentially) as 1mg or even less per day. Given that, the peptide needed to be able to survive for 50 to 60 days. In fact, you could have no alcohol at all in the mix and it would be fine if you were going to use all the peptide within 10 to 14 day and kept it in the fridge. We actually have had reports of people who are taking, hold your breath, I know, this is a lot of doe ray me, but, 50mg in one shot. Just mix some water in the vial, swirl, and down the hatch. "But Hugo, that is not sublinqual"!!!!! We will get into that in a minute.
So, to summarize the alcohol issue. Water must come first, amount of alcohol at 4 to 7% was based on longevity of the peptide in mixed conditions for up to 60 days. Alcohol is not necessary to take the peptide, you could just put the raw powder directly under your tongue if you wanted.

Absorbtion - AEDG is only a 4 amino acid chain and can absorb into the body very fast, very easy. There is no reason for anyone to have to consider to do injection unless they want to drastically reduce the amount they take each time to save money but then you are going to face other issues such as, well, having to inject (sub-q), keeping syringes around the house, mixing properly, avoiding infection and everything else that goes along with that. I do sub-q injections myself for other things but even though I am used to it, I still prefer to stay away from it if I can. The other major issue with injections are/is, making sure that it is extremely pure, clean and prepared in such a way as to allow injection-able use.
Remember, even with Sub-q, you are only speeding it up a bit. You are not putting it directly into the blood stream, the only things you are doing is getting past the epidermis and directly into the fat layer where it then is slowly absorbed into the blood stream that way. Typically larger chain proteins are done this way because they cannot pass through the epidermis so all your are doing is bringing them past that point so that they can get to the fat layer and begin the absorption process. Although the AEDG is very small and can pass through the skin very easy, you would still have some loss if you just tried to rub it on your skin so it would take more then it would if you did it sub-q and far less again if you did intravenous.

Stability - Despite it being a small chain, it is very stable for a peptide and it does not break easy. Longer chains, again, are the ones that are very fragile and you have to worry about shaking, adding liquid, ect.... AEDG can even survive the stomach for a period of time. The digestive track will eventually destroy it but a lot will absorb right through the stomach wall. It is not as if it hits your stomach and is instantly destroyed. Of course, the sooner you can get it through the skin, the better, so, sub-q in a small amount is better but do not worry about some going down your throat, it is still going to get absorbed.
Although it is more stable, structurally wise, there are other things that come into play when you are making such a small peptide. It is affected, far more easily and drastically by outside sources such as moisture. Yes, it is extremely hygroscopic!!! It can even absorb the moister inside a sealed vial and cause it to become like a clump of glue or look crystalline. Does this mean that it is no longer good? No, it just means that it has absorbed water, but, after absorbing water it then becomes subject to bacterial degradation. We have developed ways to avoid this, keep this from happening, but I am not going to go into that for obvious reasons.

Price and Selling - I used to sell to members on this board, basically at cost because I did not get compensation for my time. I did this because I believe in AEDG and wanted as many people as possible to get a chance to try it out, not to mention, help me to confirm my believe that it worked from getting back other results besides my own.
I subsequently became a partner in the lab that was producing it for me but my responsibilities did not end up being for the sale of the AEDG and now, being in the company, I can no longer promote the AEDG directly to the public. I do still provide it to some people who were originally buying it from me if they ask, on a personal basis (I probably should not really mention that but it may come out anyhow) but I do not take solicitation for it. My company does sell it, in bulk and the price can get quite low but at serious quantities only, not generally suitable for individuals.
I see some people bashing some companies, selling it retail, because of their pricing. I should not really have anything to say about this, but, as a person who has been involved in manufacturing, wholesaling and retail for over 35 years, I can tell you that this is an extremely simple minded view. You cannot just look at the wholesale price of something and then equate that to your retail price, especially when you are dealing with something like this. Epitalon is a not approved as a life extension substance by any governmental agency any where in the world, much less so by our Dear and wonderful USFDA. For someone to be putting it together in such a way that individuals can buy it and take it is assuming a TON of risk and that is not even going into the issues of having to take the raw substance, preparing in a way that can be used by individuals, packaging, transportation, storage, legal, overhead and on and on. I am not trying to defend anyone's price, and I am not talking about any one company in particular, but, what you need to remember is, what you may think is a major rip off, in the end, can translate to a very small margin, especially in a gray market. Buy or don't buy, that is your choice and in fact, if this was something like a naturally occurring substance that could be derived from a plant or something, and had approval by the FDA, it would probably be as cheap as, well, as cheap as Melatonin for sure. But it is not. Free market is a great thing. Anyone who feels that they can do a better job, or create a better price, can go out there, buy a kilo or two, create a usable product, market it, take the risk and set your price. Just remember the key words, "Take the Risk".

OK, I need to get back to work, take care everyone.
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#755 mikey Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:West Hollywood, CA

Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:23 AM

Thank you, Hugo (sciwalk). Excellent details that enlightened us.
Bravo.
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#756 1todd960 Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Arizona, United States
  • no

Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:26 AM

Does that mean the Epitalon should not look crystalline. What does everyone else's look like?
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#757 JASOG888 Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:US
  • no

Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:13 AM

Mine looks the same as the picture you posted. Plastic vial, plastic green screw cap and a thin layer of parafilm. The peptide looks like a crystalline lump, so apparently it has absorbed some moisture. I guess thats better than a "clump of glue".
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#758 solarfingers Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:California

Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:46 AM

Mine looks the same as the picture you posted. Plastic vial, plastic green screw cap and a thin layer of parafilm. The peptide looks like a crystalline lump, so apparently it has absorbed some moisture. I guess thats better than a "clump of glue".


As does mine...
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#759 PWAIN Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:46 PM

Mine arrived (in Australia) today. Looks like the picture posted earlier. Looks like much less that I remember Sciwalk sending me, can only imagine the crystallization makes it look less. Should I be keeping the unused vials in the freezer? A very big Thank You to all those who helped in organising this.
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#760 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:05 PM

Mine arrived (in Australia) today. Looks like the picture posted earlier. Looks like much less that I remember Sciwalk sending me, can only imagine the crystallization makes it look less. Should I be keeping the unused vials in the freezer? A very big Thank You to all those who helped in organising this.


Yes, unused viaals should be kept in the freezer at coldest temperature possible for longest shelf life and minimal degradation.

According to others here, the vials contain the appropriate quantity of peptide even though it looks like so little.
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#761 hav Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Cape Cod
  • no

Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:46 PM

Mine remains crystalline. I got it in a single 1 gram vial at the beginning of January and have kept it in the freezer, taking it out briefly once every 2 weeks to remove and mix up a weeks supply for two. This procedure is a refinement over my first year when I mixed it all up upon receipt and froze a bunch of separate 4-week vials. Since I now mix up only a weeks supply at a time, it sounds from Sciwalk's post that I can probably leave out the alcohol if perhaps I made a little more effort to sterilize my distilled water, dropper, and containers... I've been pretty lax with that.

Btw, I chose the the ordering time of year based on my living in the Northeast US and it getting shipped from Genscript in NJ while outside temperature and humidity are very low. I only recently learned they might trans-ship from China so I'm not so sure now that my timing is totally perfect, not knowing that location and weather, but all seems to be well.

Howard

Edited by hav, 05 August 2013 - 01:53 PM.

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#762 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:09 PM

Dreamer you're still mixing a short chain peptide with wine. Even if it's been dissolved in water first - you're adding wine to it.

I take it from your non-response that you're not getting the strong effect from Epitalon in the manner you are mixing and consuming it. You might want to try it another way.

The procedure for mixing is to mix the peptide with water until dissolved. Then if you will be storing it in the fridge for a while, add some alcohol to help prevent degradation from bacteria. The alcohol is not necessary in preparing the peptide.

If you try mixing it with alcohol before dissolving it in water, it may not fully dissolve.

Adding the wine/alcohol after it is dissolved in water does not degrade the peptide, at least according to my understanding.

As for my experience with the peptide, I find it beneficial and do not intend to change anything I am doing.

I will, however, copntinue to follow your "expertise" and "knowledge" in hopes of learning something, even if it is learning what not to do.
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#763 meatsauce Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:USA

Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:56 AM

Dreamer said that he would send a sample off to the lab to verify for purity and potency. I think all who participated in the group buy should pitch in a bit and hopefully we can get it done very soon. How does that sound Dreamer?

Im sure everyone would feel much better knowing that the product is exactly what we wanted.

-Ryan
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#764 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:23 AM

It's already been sent off for testing. No money is required from anyone.

Thank you for the thought.
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#765 noble123 Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Ireland
  • no

Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:12 AM

Thank you Dreamer
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#766 meatsauce Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:USA

Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:51 PM

Yes, thank you.
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#767 PWAIN Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:08 PM

Can someone tell me the size of the bottle that sciwalk sent out with his free 50mg samplers in ml. I want to buy similar size bottles but don't know how many ml these bottles are.
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#768 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:42 PM

Can someone tell me the size of the bottle that sciwalk sent out with his free 50mg samplers in ml. I want to buy similar size bottles but don't know how many ml these bottles are.

The ones I have received with the dropper top are about 8ml.
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#769 sciwalk Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Hong Kong

Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

Can someone tell me the size of the bottle that sciwalk sent out with his free 50mg samplers in ml. I want to buy similar size bottles but don't know how many ml these bottles are.



5ml
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#770 meatsauce Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:USA

Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

I'm not sure if you realize it but you are changing the word "wine" to "alcohol" which are entirely different substances. In order to make wine you specifically add, enhance or at least utilize enzymes including pectinases, hemicellulases, glucanases and glycosidases. I'm not sure if you understand what these enzymes do, and will do when in contact with Epitalon. Then you have the bacteria, remaining yeast, etc.. All these have the potential to break down the Eptialon, especially when left over time.

Have you ever seen another peptide stored in wine?

Please keep this conversation about wine, don't change it to purified alcohol because that is an entirely different subject matter. Even non-purified alcohol should be avoided. Bacteriostatic water for injection is by definition, purified and not the same as using water from your tap with vodka. The point is to avoid bacteria and contaminants, NOT TO ADD THEM.


What would the best source of alcohol be to use that is quick to get. What about vodka? I am using Bacteriostatic Water with sodium chloride but the alcohol content is only .9%. Do you think that is enough for the peptide to resist bacterial degradation for a least a month?

I was also thinking last night that the sodium might cause difusion into the mouth rather than the peptide moving into the blood stream. What does everyone think?
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#771 free10 Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:US

Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

How about UV. It kills most things pretty fast, but I don't know if it would harm/change the peptide. Just a thought
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#772 solarfingers Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:California

Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:38 PM

Mine came from Piscataway, NJ...
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#773 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:54 PM

How about UV. It kills most things pretty fast, but I don't know if it would harm/change the peptide. Just a thought

If using UV, I would use it on the water, so it would have no effect on the peptide. I wouldn't run the peptide through the UV since it is supposed to already be sterile.
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#774 pleb Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:England

Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

Pleb I definitely do not work for any reseller of any peptide. For Solarfingers you mentioned Genscript but in an earlier post someone.......[lengthy quote partially removed]....important to note the key principle above. If you change anything in the peptide or solution you use to recon, it could be the cause of a reaction.




Hi the company is in Canada but claim the peptides are all made in the USA not Canada my mistake the reseller is Pro Peptides, ACVR2B (ACE 031) 98percent purity,

previously i had used the same peptide of a lower purity 95 % from from a UK reseller who ran out and i looked for an alternative supplier of ACE as they have not so far re-stocked which did work and produced no adverse reactions this was from Bio-GenPharma a Chinese company also the same companies HGH AQx and IGF1 long 3,

Edited by manic_racetam, 14 August 2013 - 09:48 PM.

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#775 Authentic Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Canada
  • yes

Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

I see there is an ongoing P2 study NCT01099761 on ACE 031. I hope a bit of digging can find a UK or EU supplier. I'll be frank with you but in doing so I am opening myself up to major criticism; It could (key word here COULD) be that you didn't have a reaction to the Chinese product because it was simply a harmless white powder, or a different white powder than what you ordered. It also could be that the second supplier flushed their peptide with something (without telling you) that you are reacting to. It even could be that - if there was a delay between when you ran out and when you obtained new peptide, that in that time your body created antibodies to the peptide.

All of this is completely conjecture, but I hope it helps. You should always demand documentation for any peptide you purchase.

Since you mentioned an IGF peptide, here is some data on a related peptide that might be relevant;

A large proportion of patients develop anti- GRF antibodies at least once during treatment with Sermorelin. The significance of these antibodies is not clear and often a positive test at one growth assessment will become negative by the next assessment. The presence of antibodies does not appear to affect growth or appear to be related to a specific adverse reaction profile. No generalized allergic reactions to Sermorelin have been reported.
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#776 pleb Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:England

Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

whilst i appreciate that the body can develop anti bodies the original trials of ace 031 were on 4 to 10 year old kids in Canada as a treatment for muscular dystrophy showed no reaction similar to the reaction i have had, other than a couple of kids with nose bleeding and one with gum bleeding,

the Chinese ace did work i put on 50 percent muscle in a month i felt pumped most of the time taking 500mcg every two weeks, admittedly also taking the IGF for satellite cell proliferation as i felt without it it would not produce the results i had hoped for,
i originally looked like a 14 year old skinny teenager i don't now i look more like an 18year old who has suddenly started putting on muscle and at my age that's a miracle

IGF1 Long 3 is a modified version of that produced by your own liver its modified to last between 20 and 30 hours rather than the 20 minutes of the bodies own IGF1

Edited by pleb, 06 August 2013 - 07:59 PM.

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#777 sciwalk Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:Hong Kong

Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:30 AM

Correction, 8ml is correct as Dreamer stated. I was referencing the old, original vials, before it was changed to allow an amount that would equal a set amount of drops, not quantity.
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#778 solarfingers Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:California

Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:09 PM

Have you tried contacting Genscript to ask for the documentation (HPLC and Mass Spectroscopy data for the peptide) ?


Genscript was very happy to provide both... Question is, does anybody know how to read these?


Posted Image

Mass Spectroscopy for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File



Posted Image

HPLC for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File


Edited by solarfingers, 07 August 2013 - 02:10 PM.

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#779 JASOG888 Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:US
  • no

Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:46 AM


Have you tried contacting Genscript to ask for the documentation (HPLC and Mass Spectroscopy data for the peptide) ?


Genscript was very happy to provide both... Question is, does anybody know how to read these?


Posted Image

Mass Spectroscopy for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File



Posted Image

HPLC for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File


The HPLC chromatogram looks good, but I have no experience with MS. I have to thank dreamer for coordinating the group buy. I wouldn't be surprised if "authentic" claims the data provided by Genscript is fake.
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#780 Dreamer Re: Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)

  • Location:San Diego

Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:07 PM



Have you tried contacting Genscript to ask for the documentation (HPLC and Mass Spectroscopy data for the peptide) ?


Genscript was very happy to provide both... Question is, does anybody know how to read these?


Posted Image

Mass Spectroscopy for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File



Posted Image


HPLC for Genscript Epitalion Sample Download File


The HPLC chromatogram looks good, but I have no experience with MS. I have to thank dreamer for coordinating the group buy. I wouldn't be surprised if "authentic" claims the data provided by Genscript is fake.


I think it is also important to point out that the batch of peptide for the group buy tested out at 98.8% HPLC purity.

GS recommends ultra pure water for the solvent.
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