5 replies to this topic

[lucid]

I'll formally address this to Paul Mcglothin, but please jump in if you have something to add.

I have a question for you all if you're in the helping mood

My question is pretty straight forward: I'm a pretty large muscular guy who is looking to do CR without losing the lean mass that I currently have. I just got my stats done:
Weight: 245 lbs
Height: 6'5
Body Fat %: 17% (204lbs of lean mass, 41 lbs of fat)
Resting Metabolic Rate : 2600 KCAL/d (Putting my metabolism at ~3500KCAL/day with normal activity added in)

My plan to date is as follows:
1. Select a target calorie intake: For me, I was thinking 2800 which should put me at a 700+ calorie deficit (the + being exercise)
2. Practice the CRON diet and do high intensity strength training (monitor weight and BF%)
3. Once my BF% gets to ~8-9% i want to keep eating the same kind of food, but increase my calories to maintain this weight (rather than stay hypocaloric and start burning off lean mass)
- I also got my full blood work done, so that I can post a before and after. (Areas that i need to improve are triglycerides and HDL)

I am pretty sure that the above can be done rather easily: I can easily change my diet and shed some weight. My question is will this activate CR?

Now I have been thinking about this extensively the past few months and reading anything that I could get my hands on. What has really interested me is research done on 'set points' and the metabolic regulators of the body and adipose tissue storage.

Long story short, everything that I was reading suggested that the body has a weight that it 'likes'. When we drop below that weight the body will lower energy expenditure by improving metabolic efficiency, lowering body temperature etc.. Additionally it will make the brain/body more hungry for some time. This seems very consistent with CR. There have also been studies that show that people who have lost significant weight maintain this 'efficient metabolism' months after having lost the weight (much to the dismay of the participants in that weight loss study). This indicates that the metabolic shift that took place once calories were reduced persisted even though the weight of the participants stabilized at a lower point. If this is true and that metabolic shift was CR, then might it also be true that my above steps 1-3 could activate CR while keeping my lean mass? If no then will I need to further reduce my calories since my metabolism would have dropped from losing that lean mass?

I have been preparing for this little experiment for a while by gaining some good muscle mass. I am pulling the trigger on the CR part today, so I will firstly keep you posted and look to modify what I am doing based on feedback. Thanks!

Edited by lucid, 23 December 2011 - 06:44 PM.

[pmcglothin]

Raymond wrote:

I have a question for you if you're in the helping mood file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Paul/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif

I am definitely, in a helping mode, Raymond-particularly well thought out queries like yours inspire me!

>My question is pretty straight forward: I'm a pretty large muscular guy who is looking to do CR without losing the lean mass that I currently have. I just got my stats done:
Weight: 245 lbs
Height: 6'5
Body Fat %: 17% (204lbs of lean mass, 41 lbs of fat)
Resting Metabolic Rate : 2600 KCAL/d (Putting my metabolism at ~3500KCAL/day with normal activity added in)

A couple of questions, Raymond.

What is your age, body frame, and activity level now?

I ask because I am not easily able to come up with the same numbers for total calorie intake unless you are exercising a lot. I just wrote a new book: The CR Way to Great Glucose Control. There I  include a new chart suggesting total intakes of fewer calories for a slower metabolic rate, which often corresponds to lower levels of T3. For a guy who is 6’5 they run like this:.

6’5”  Age   19-30  31-50 50+   
  
   2414   2341   2211
  
  


The stats you really should start with are key clinical indicators of CR status: energy availability, anabolic status, inflammation levels and metabolic rate. These translate into markers like insulin, IGF-I, T3 and hsCRP. A list and results ranges is included in the Getting Started Chapter of the CR Way.


”  

My plan to date is as follows:
1. Select a target calorie intake: For me, I was thinking 2800 which should put me at a 700+ calorie deficit (the + being exercise)

What kind of exercise, Raymond? If it’s lots of aerobics, you probably won’t be practicing calorie restriction, rather a low calorie diet with a calorie deficit. There is a huge difference in the amount of energy you are processing.

2. Practice the CRON diet and do high intensity strength training (monitor weight and BF%)

Well the CRON diet means different things to different people. To CR Way travelers, it means turning down cellular pathways like insulin /IGF-I ,upregulating alternative energy pathways like beta oxidation of fats.


3. Once my BF% gets to ~8-9% i want to keep eating the same kind of food, but increase my calories to maintain this weight (rather than stay hypocaloric and start burning off lean mass)

You are very smart to not aim for too low a weight. However, I do not think you need to go to such a low level of body fat. 12-14 will probably do and may help you be more “thrifty,”  that is to burn fewer calories to maintain a healthy weight”–the name of the game for truly living longer through calorie restriction.

I am pretty sure that the above can be done rather easily: I can easily change my diet and shed some weight. My question is will this activate CR?
Not necessarily. As stated. I think your calorie intake may be a little high. The markers I suggested testing will give you a more accurate picture.

Now I have been thinking about this extensively the past few months and reading anything that I could get my hands on. What has really interested me is research done on 'set points' and the metabolic regulators of the body and adipose tissue storage.

Could you please share any studies you have found? I would like to see what you are referring to.

Long story short, everything that I was reading suggested that the body has a weight that it 'likes'. When we drop below that weight the body will lower energy expenditure by improving metabolic efficiency, lowering body temperature etc..

Correct

Additionally it will make the brain/body more hungry for some time. This seems very consistent with CR.

Yes it is.


There have also been studies that show that people who have lost significant weight maintain this 'efficient metabolism' months after having lost the weight (much to the dismay of the participants in that weight loss study).

All true. If these people hope for a longer life, they should be rejoicing because Higher Metabolic rate = Death – the name of a blog I wrote


This indicates that the metabolic shift that took place once calories were reduced persisted even though the weight of the participants stabilized at a lower point. If this is true and that metabolic shift was CR, then might it also be true that my above steps 1-3 could activate CR while keeping my lean mass? If no, then as I lose lean mass, then won't I need to further reduce my calories since my metabolism would have dropped?

I really enjoyed reading your book as well as listening to your presentation at the 2010 Imminst conference in Brussels.

Thank you

Sorry for the long message and thanks!

Long, intelligent questions indicate passion for knowledge and living—a truly beautiful thing that deserves ultimate respect and nurturing. I hope my answers are helpful. The Calorie Restriction Primeravailable here at LongeCity, is also worth a read. Here's another post that you may want to consider:

The Tall Don't Always Die Young

My Uncle Pat, one inch taller than you and having practiced CR all his adult life is now in his nineties. The link tells more.

I wish you extraordinary health and much happiness every day. That's what awaits you in your new CR life!

Paul

Edited by pmcglothin, 24 December 2011 - 01:41 PM.

[scottknl]

Hi Lucid,  Seems to me that it will be difficult for you to achieve everything you want to at the same time.  Getting down to 8 - 9% body fat is not too hard for some CR practitioners, and maintaining a CR level calorie target is not to hard to do while staying at 8 - 9 % body fat.  The real trick is to get your body to keep your level of lean muscle.  Since you'll be 20 lbs lighter at around 224 when you're at your target  body fat % range, you'll find that some of your muscle will go away.   Your body compensates for the loss of that 20 lbs by making your legs a little smaller because you don't use the muscles as much.   In order to keep your lower leg muscle and thigh size, you'd have to do some extra leg work in the gym so that the stress remains the same as before your CR started.  Perhaps if you had a weight vest so that your total weight stayed at 245, then you might achieve your goal.  

I dropped 35 lbs in six months when I first started CR and found that my leg muscles looked big and beefy in comparison to the rest of my body. (was running at that time)  But it was only so for a few weeks before the muscle reduced to a more appropriate size and proportion to the rest of my body.   I could easily imagine that the same thing happened with some of my back muscles etc too.  

Keeping muscle that doesn't really belong on an inappropriate size frame is a hard game to play.  Bodybuilders spend their whole careers monkeying with their insulin levels via dietary methods and only achieve what they want a few times a season.   In some ways this is opposite to the signalling goals CR wants to achieve.  Namely, low growth hormone, low insulin levels, low daily blood sugar variations.  If you choose dietary and lifestyle options that say increase insulin levels and IGF-1  as a trade off for temporary muscle growth, you'll undoubtedly be leaving some longevity and health benefits behind.

All that being said, you can practice CR without looking like a scarecrow.    Good luck with your regimen and let us know what you learn.  There's not too many really tall folks doing CR, so I think there's still a lot for us to learn.

[lucid]

I am definitely, in a helping mode, Raymond-particularly well thought out queries like yours inspire me!

Thanks!

A couple of questions, Raymond.

What is your age, body frame, and activity level now?

I'm 27 years old, have a large frame (wide shoulders), and am moderately active (on my feet walking at work, short intense exercise every other day)

I ask because I am not easily able to come up with the same numbers for total calorie intake unless you are exercising a lot. I just wrote a new book: The CR Way to Great Glucose Control. There I  include a new chart suggesting total intakes of fewer calories for a slower metabolic rate, which often corresponds to lower levels of T3. For a guy who is 6’5 they run like this:.

6’5”  Age   19-30  31-50 50+   
  
   2414   2341   2211

Hmmm. Well let me go through how I got my numbers. I just had my resting metabolic rate measured by gas exchange analysis (which i understand to be the gold standard). Being almost asleep and doing nothing first thing in the morning my RMR is 2568/day.  A nutritionist who had setup the lab test then estimated my 'activity' + 'digestion' calories to be ~1000KCAL based on my activity levels. This gives me the ~3500 net.

Since you were questioning this, I went and tried to check it as best I could online. I chose EXRX.Net since its calculator allows you to put in %BF and activity levels.

I put in the following:

Quote

body wieght: 245
BF% 17%
Age 27

Activity Level (hours / day)
9 Resting
7 Very Light
7 Light
1 Moderate

The results were even higher:

Quote

BMR: 2367
Activity: 1775
Total: 4142

Now the numbers that you suggested were 2414 for my age/height. Since metabolic rate is based primarily on lean mass, I think that if I chose this calorie level, i would lose muscle until my lean mass could be supported by 2414 (Which would require significant lean mass reduction even with a more efficient CR'ed metabolism)

The stats you really should start with are key clinical indicators of CR status: energy availability, anabolic status, inflammation levels and metabolic rate. These translate into markers like insulin, IGF-I, T3 and hsCRP. A list and results ranges is included in the Getting Started Chapter of the CR Way.

Ok I just had a blood panel done, but I didn't include those. Do I need to measure 'my before stats' to compare to an 'after'? Or can I just do an 'after'? If its better to do a before, i'll get one done this week.

What kind of exercise, Raymond? If it’s lots of aerobics, you probably won’t be practicing calorie restriction, rather a low calorie diet with a calorie deficit. There is a huge difference in the amount of energy you are processing.

Well I had been doing a lot of aerobic exercise (running 15+ miles/week), but 2 months ago i switched to all most all strength training. I intend to do high intensity 30-45 minute strength training 4-5x/day. And maybe do 3 minutes of sprints a couple times a week.

Well the CRON diet means different things to different people. To CR Way travelers, it means turning down cellular pathways like insulin /IGF-I ,upregulating alternative energy pathways like beta oxidation of fats.

Well first off i mean the kind of food that you all recommend: Nutrient dense with low calorie density foods. Additionally I'm keen on anti-inflammatory foods (which showed up in my recent blood test, my C-reactive protein is really low). Secondly, hopefully i can eat a few enough calories to turn down the pathways you mentioned.

You are very smart to not aim for too low a weight. However, I do not think you need to go to such a low level of body fat. 12-14 will probably do and may help you be more “thrifty,”  that is to burn fewer calories to maintain a healthy weight”–the name of the game for truly living longer through calorie restriction.

Ok, I'll re-check when i get to 12%. At some point though i am going to consciously need to up my calorie intake to stop being hypo-caloric and prevent losing lean weight.

Not necessarily. As stated. I think your calorie intake may be a little high. The markers I suggested testing will give you a more accurate picture.

I will definitely measure the markers though once I think that I'm far enough in that i should be getting the CR effect.

Could you please share any studies you have found? I would like to see what you are referring to.
I didn't save most of the ones i was reading, but this one is my favorite:
Defense of differfing body weight set points in diet-induced obese and resistant rats
(The full text is free) I'll put some more up later as i re-find them.

All true. If these people hope for a longer life, they should be rejoicing because Higher Metabolic rate = Death – the name of a blog I wrote
Yup! But they are thinking that its going to be harder to keep that weight off!

Long, intelligent questions indicate passion for knowledge and living—a truly beautiful thing that deserves ultimate respect and nurturing. I hope my answers are helpful. The Calorie Restriction Primer available here at LongeCity, is also worth a read. Here's another post that you may want to consider:

The Tall Don't Always Die Young

My Uncle Pat, one inch taller than you and having practiced CR all his adult life is now in his nineties. The link tells more.

I wish you extraordinary health and much happiness every day. That's what awaits you in your new CR life!

Paul
Wow, thanks for all the great info. I'll get to reading! Happy holidays!

[lucid]

scottknl, on 24 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

Hi Lucid,  Seems to me that it will be difficult for you to achieve everything you want to at the same time.  Getting down to 8 - 9% body fat is not too hard for some CR practitioners, and maintaining a CR level calorie target is not to hard to do while staying at 8 - 9 % body fat.  The real trick is to get your body to keep your level of lean muscle.  Since you'll be 20 lbs lighter at around 224 when you're at your target  body fat % range, you'll find that some of your muscle will go away.   Your body compensates for the loss of that 20 lbs by making your legs a little smaller because you don't use the muscles as much.   In order to keep your lower leg muscle and thigh size, you'd have to do some extra leg work in the gym so that the stress remains the same as before your CR started.  Perhaps if you had a weight vest so that your total weight stayed at 245, then you might achieve your goal.  

The 8-9% isn't the target in and of itself. It is just as low as I think I can go (and thereby the most I can trim my calories down) without undo-ly stressing my body. Paul suggested that 12-13% might be more appropriate. As you stated, the difficulty is keeping the lean mass. This is very straight forward in my mind: If i remain hypocaloric, my body will continue burning energy reserves be it fat or lean mass. With intense strength training and enough protein in my diet, my body will almost always choose fat. (Evidenced by many body builders) The problem is if I remain hypocaloric, then my body will be forced to target muscle even with strength training. You suggested that I might need to up my strength training to compensate for a lower weight and you're probably right, but I do a pretty intense regime, so i think it will suffice.

scottknl, on 24 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

I dropped 35 lbs in six months when I first started CR and found that my leg muscles looked big and beefy in comparison to the rest of my body. (was running at that time)  But it was only so for a few weeks before the muscle reduced to a more appropriate size and proportion to the rest of my body.   I could easily imagine that the same thing happened with some of my back muscles etc too.  

Keeping muscle that doesn't really belong on an inappropriate size frame is a hard game to play.  Bodybuilders spend their whole careers monkeying with their insulin levels via dietary methods and only achieve what they want a few times a season.   In some ways this is opposite to the signalling goals CR wants to achieve.  Namely, low growth hormone, low insulin levels, low daily blood sugar variations.  If you choose dietary and lifestyle options that say increase insulin levels and IGF-1  as a trade off for temporary muscle growth, you'll undoubtedly be leaving some longevity and health benefits behind.

Well body builders certainly try to monkey around with those pathways. I wouldn't say that they are always getting the opposite effect of CR; particularly during the cutting phase where the body is largely catabolic. Even in the anabolic phase, many body builders recommend several meals per day to keep from spiking insulin and prevent insulin resistance. By no means are body builders doing CR however....

scottknl, on 24 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

All that being said, you can practice CR without looking like a scarecrow. Good luck with your regimen and let us know what you learn.  There's not too many really tall folks doing CR, so I think there's still a lot for us to learn.

Great, will do.

Edited by lucid, 26 December 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[pmcglothin]

Hi Raymond,

Sorry it took a long time for me to get back to you, but I am here now and want to help if I can.

I didn't forget about you, but I was asked to write some articles, which had deadlines.

Snip

What is your age, body frame, and activity level now?

I'm 27 years old, have a large frame (wide shoulders), and am moderately active (on my feet walking at work, short intense exercise every other day).



I ask because I am not easily able to come up with the same numbers for total calorie intake unless you are exercising a lot. I just wrote a new book: The CR Way to Great Glucose Control. There I  include a new chart suggesting total intakes of fewer calories for a slower metabolic rate, which often corresponds to lower levels of T3. For a guy who is 6’5 they run like this:.

6’5”  Age   19-30  31-50 50+   
  
   2414   2341   2211   

Hmmm. Well let me go through how I got my numbers. I just had my resting metabolic rate measured by gas exchange analysis (which i understand to be the gold standard).

Bravo for being diligent enough to do it that way. Yes, the researcher groups I have worked with agree with you. Two of them Luigi Fontana, and Janet Tomiyama The CRONA study) have measured my BMR this way.  Unfortunately though, there is wide variance among adults who are measured even with gas exchange analysis. It is my opinion( and that only an educated guesstimate) that BMR on calorie restrictors should run lower. That has been a goal of mine.


Being almost asleep and doing nothing first thing in the morning my RMR is 2568/day.  A nutritionist who had setup the lab test then estimated my 'activity' + 'digestion' calories to be ~1000KCAL based on my activity levels. This gives me the ~3500 net.

Since you were questioning this, I went and tried to check it as best I could online. I chose EXRX.Net since its calculator allows you to put in %BF and activity levels.

I put in the following:

Quote

body wieght: 245
BF% 17%
Age 27

Activity Level (hours / day)
9 Resting
7 Very Light
7 Light
1 Moderate

The results were even higher:

Quote

BMR: 2367
Activity: 1775
Total: 4142

Now the numbers that you suggested were 2414 for my age/height. Since metabolic rate is based primarily on lean mass, I think that if I chose this calorie level, i would lose muscle until my lean mass could be supported by 2414 (Which would require significant lean mass reduction even with a more efficient CR'ed metabolism).

Could be and I don't think you should lose significant muscle mass. I have not.

The stats you really should start with are key clinical indicators of CR status: energy availability, anabolic status, inflammation levels and metabolic rate. These translate into markers like insulin, IGF-I, T3 and hsCRP. A list and results ranges is included in the Getting Started Chapter of the CR Way.

Ok I just had a blood panel done, but I didn't include those. Do I need to measure 'my before stats' to compare to an 'after'? Or can I just do an 'after'? If its better to do a before, i'll get one done this week.

Again sorry I got back to you late. It is better to do all the tests before you start. That gives your doctor more to work with. Where were your results on standard markers likw WBC and RBC?

Well I had been doing a lot of aerobic exercise (running 15+ miles/week), but 2 months ago i switched to all most all strength training. I intend to do high intensity 30-45 minute strength training 4-5x/day. And maybe do 3 minutes of sprints a couple times a week.

Excellent! My only suggestion is to not try to build big muscles, but functional muscles with lots of endurance. Today it is very cold outside. So I used the CR Way gymn and did about 30 minutes of moderate weight training and punctuated the day with exercises like the rowing machine and versa climber for about 25 minutes each  very slowly. I do not wish to build size. But if I feel like running up a hill, playing basketball or anything else that's physical, I expect to do it without any problems and little or no residaul soreness, which lowers quality of life for lots of people from early twenties and beyond.

Snip

Well the CRON diet means different things to different people. To CR Way travelers, it means turning down cellular pathways like insulin /IGF-I ,upregulating alternative energy pathways like beta oxidation of fats.

Well first off i mean the kind of food that you all recommend: Nutrient dense with low calorie density foods. Additionally I'm keen on anti-inflammatory foods (which showed up in my recent blood test, my C-reactive protein is really low). Secondly, hopefully i can eat a few enough calories to turn down the pathways you mentioned.

Good. be creative and make it delicous and fun too. Everything we recommend at the CR Way must meet those criteria, as well as being the healthiest food on the planet! Ultimately CR should not only give you phenomenal health, it should increase your happiness level too. another essential component of a better, longer life.

You are very smart to not aim for too low a weight. However, I do not think you need to go to such a low level of body fat. 12-14 will probably do and may help you be more “thrifty,”  that is to burn fewer calories to maintain a healthy weight”–the name of the game for truly living longer through calorie restriction.

Ok, I'll re-check when i get to 12%. At some point though i am going to consciously need to up my calorie intake to stop being hypo-caloric and prevent losing lean weight.

Not necessarily. As stated. I think your calorie intake may be a little high. The markers I suggested testing will give you a more accurate picture.

I will definitely measure the markers though once I think that I'm far enough in that i should be getting the CR effect.

Sounds good.

I think you are proceeding in a really smart way. I predict great success for you, with far fewer mistakes than I made when I was starting CR. CR science has rocketed forward since then and we intend to keep pushing the envelope, whenever and wherever we find a way to increase the benefits of the lifestyle.

I know you have some other questions for me.

Let's continue them here.

Paul