• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Protracted benzo withdrawal and Gotu Kola, Piracetam, Bacopa

benzodiazepines withdrawal gotu kola piracetam bacopa nootropics insomina delusions depression brain fog

  • Please log in to reply
139 replies to this topic

#61 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:12 PM

madamshome: Yeah thats always been the problem with my experiments. I'm not the most patient man alive so I end up rushing everything and lumping too many variables in at once. However, I think I'm still gaining good results. Yesterday I felt somewhat normal until I took 120 mg DHC, after which I felt great for 4 hours then anxious and depressed for the rest of the day. Today I didn't take anything and I've felt normal for the whole day. When I say normal, I mean comparatively. No anxiety or depression today. I still don't feel like my baseline state though, I have no idea how long it'll take for me to get back to baseline.

BTW, GABA receptors aren't that slow to upregulate. I've taken phenibut after a 2 week break before and my tolerance dropped significantly. I think it just takes a long time for the GABA system to fully upregulate. Its probably like that for all classes of drugs though. You could safely jump off the diazepam with baclofen. Takes at least 1 month to get physically addicted to baclofen. Most people say they don't get addicted in under 2 months. Baclofen is even more selective towards GABA_b than phenibut.

Edited by mycotheologist, 21 July 2012 - 04:14 PM.


#62 renfr

  • Guest
  • 1,059 posts
  • 72
  • Location:France

Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:02 PM

Depends how much times you target your GABA system, it downregulates very easily with GABA agonists.
Stuff to upregulate GABA include L-theanine, Bacopa, Taurine too. Caffeine upregulates GABA on long term use but if you already have a panic attack that's really not a good idea.
Stuff to lower the GABA/glutamate unbalance are magnesium, taurine, banning high MSG foods.
If you want to go on medication, you can try flumazenil and all kind of GABA antagonist but taking a GABA agonist to cure a protracted withdrawal is counterproductive.
The brain is stupid and when you activate its GABA, it downregulates the receptors but when you block the receptors with antagonists it will fight back and upregulate GABA.
Other drugs can upregulate GABA differently (taurine, L-theanine) and increase the production of GABA.
As for piracetam, it's like caffeine, on the long term it will help you recover but it will nonetheless give your anxiety.
Gotu Kola is good idea for anxiety, you might also try out some adaptogens such as rhodiola rosea, siberian ginseng, ... They might relief the stress and restore chemical balance in your brain.

Edited by renfr, 21 July 2012 - 11:04 PM.


sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#63 protoject

  • Guest
  • 952 posts
  • 270
  • Location:Canada

Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:06 AM

Depends how much times you target your GABA system, it downregulates very easily with GABA agonists.
Stuff to upregulate GABA include L-theanine, Bacopa, Taurine too. Caffeine upregulates GABA on long term use but if you already have a panic attack that's really not a good idea.
Stuff to lower the GABA/glutamate unbalance are magnesium, taurine, banning high MSG foods.
If you want to go on medication, you can try flumazenil and all kind of GABA antagonist but taking a GABA agonist to cure a protracted withdrawal is counterproductive.
The brain is stupid and when you activate its GABA, it downregulates the receptors but when you block the receptors with antagonists it will fight back and upregulate GABA.
Other drugs can upregulate GABA differently (taurine, L-theanine) and increase the production of GABA.
As for piracetam, it's like caffeine, on the long term it will help you recover but it will nonetheless give your anxiety.
Gotu Kola is good idea for anxiety, you might also try out some adaptogens such as rhodiola rosea, siberian ginseng, ... They might relief the stress and restore chemical balance in your brain.


HUH?
Taurine is a gaba agonist. Hence theoretically could be counter-productive.
I've never seen a study saying l-theanine upregulates gaba receptors.
Flumezanil can lower seizure threshold or cause a seizure, ESPECIALLY coming off benzos... can it not? So be careful here.
Good call on Bacopa though.
I still haven't tried Bacopa or Gotu Kola..

Rhodiola and ginseng are tricky for me personally. Rhodiola for example, seemed to actually worsen anxiety at times. But I think this might be based on the dose used day to day. Because when I first started using it , I think at like 200 mg, it seemed to work as a nootropic and mood booster.

#64 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:51 PM

Yeah I want to test out glutamate inhibitors/antagonists, although that too might be counterproductive to recovery because glutamate and GABA balance each other out so when you lower glutamate levels, you raise GABA levels. The 3 subtypes of glutamate receptors are NMDA, AMPA and kainate. We all know about NMDA antagonists but I've never heard anything about AMPA or kainate antagonists. I've heard of kainic acid and the havoc it can wreak on the brain and I've heard of plenty of substances which protect against that but IIRC, they were mainly antioxidants, not kainate antagonists.

Its day 5 since I quit xanax, which I used for 7 days after a 2 week phenibut binge and I feel fine today but I'm getting all emotional and nostalgic for some reason. When I hear a song that I hadn't heard in years I get all emotional about it, kinda like that homesick feeling lol. I feel pretty good considering I quit GABAergics after 6 months, its been so long since I was at baseline that I can't really remember what its like but I think right now I feel as good as I would at baseline. I didn't have anxiety or depression to begin with so that probably plays a large role in this.

Rhiodiola worsens anxiety in me too. Not surprising considering it is an MAOI but also increases endorphin levels. Like I said, opioids give me mad anxiety right now. Thats not normal for me, at baseline opioids make me euphoric, calm and relaxed.

I think benzos are the devil, I strongly suspect they cause neuropathy and thats the cause for the extremely long recovery times. I read a thread on this forum about "floxing" which is neuropathy caused by quinolone antibiotics and the symptoms include a lot of the benzodiazepine w/d symptoms.

Edited by mycotheologist, 22 July 2012 - 12:57 PM.


#65 renfr

  • Guest
  • 1,059 posts
  • 72
  • Location:France

Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:07 PM

Depends how much times you target your GABA system, it downregulates very easily with GABA agonists.
Stuff to upregulate GABA include L-theanine, Bacopa, Taurine too. Caffeine upregulates GABA on long term use but if you already have a panic attack that's really not a good idea.
Stuff to lower the GABA/glutamate unbalance are magnesium, taurine, banning high MSG foods.
If you want to go on medication, you can try flumazenil and all kind of GABA antagonist but taking a GABA agonist to cure a protracted withdrawal is counterproductive.
The brain is stupid and when you activate its GABA, it downregulates the receptors but when you block the receptors with antagonists it will fight back and upregulate GABA.
Other drugs can upregulate GABA differently (taurine, L-theanine) and increase the production of GABA.
As for piracetam, it's like caffeine, on the long term it will help you recover but it will nonetheless give your anxiety.
Gotu Kola is good idea for anxiety, you might also try out some adaptogens such as rhodiola rosea, siberian ginseng, ... They might relief the stress and restore chemical balance in your brain.


HUH?
Taurine is a gaba agonist. Hence theoretically could be counter-productive.
I've never seen a study saying l-theanine upregulates gaba receptors.
Flumezanil can lower seizure threshold or cause a seizure, ESPECIALLY coming off benzos... can it not? So be careful here.
Good call on Bacopa though.
I still haven't tried Bacopa or Gotu Kola..

Rhodiola and ginseng are tricky for me personally. Rhodiola for example, seemed to actually worsen anxiety at times. But I think this might be based on the dose used day to day. Because when I first started using it , I think at like 200 mg, it seemed to work as a nootropic and mood booster.

Not so quite, Taurine is indeed a very mild GABA agonist but it is not its main mode of action. In fact it is a GABA agonist because it increases GABA reserves by inhibiting GABA transaminase but on the long term taurine has been shown to increase GABA receptors density quite significantly by the way.
As for Theanine there are studies on pubmed showing it increases concentrations of GABA, it is sometimes used to cope with some effects of benzo withdrawal.
I use both everyday and when I go cold turkey on them I do not experience any harmful side effect, they do act on GABA but in much different ways.
Besides they are water soluble while benzos are fat soluble, those latter store up in the fat cells and are harder to get rid of. In comparison a benzo withdrawal will last months, a GHB withdrawal (acts on GABA-B but is water soluble) goes up to 2-3 weeks.
That's just my 2 cents but maybe using a detoxifier such as MSM which increases cell permebiality might help get rid of benzos much more easily, doing sport too can help by getting rid of fat cells.

#66 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:44 PM

Has anyone here tried acupuncture for benzo withdrawals? Supposedly, it can help the body regain neurochemical homeostasis. I'm going tomorrow, I'll report the results here.

Edited by mycotheologist, 22 July 2012 - 07:01 PM.


#67 madamshome

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 1

Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:16 AM

Thanks all for feedback. I researched the heck out of flumazenil & concluded its effects to be too random to risk, (outcome spectrum from major recovery to major collapse).

I was also on a long course of Cipro for an antibiotic resistant infection. Fluoroquinolones are GABA antagonists so likely a major contributor to my mucked up receptors.

I weight train regularly & take NA cysteine for liver detox but will add the MSM. I also have theanine so will start taking it regularly. Any thoughts on dosage?

Myco, I too am very prone to want to rush out & try the newest cure & withdrawal truly sucks so I fully sympathise.

I had around 20 accupuncture sessions & can't say I noticed any real change. I would have perservered longer if it had been more affordable so I will be interested to hear about your experiences.

I have been taking high dose inositol throughout & have found it to the only thing that produces a detectable effect until the bacopa which is also detectable. I would very much appreciate some advice on the bacopa dose as I have had to drop my dose back after 2 instances of major nausea. It may be that both inositol & bacopa also act on serotonin & the combo was too much but have also read that bacopa can cause gastro issues in some.

#68 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:38 AM

I have a bag of l-theanine powder and on the package it recommends doses between 200-400mg daily. I take 400mg once as a daily dose but I haven't been using it lately as I want to see what I'm like without taking anything. I'm guessing these waves of anxiety/depression. I'm new to bacopa too, the capsules I have contain around 270mg of powdered plant matter which is probably a very weak dose. I haven't got any noticeable effects off it yet but I only tried taking a single one of these capsules. I'm going to pick up some inositol today.

#69 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:29 AM

This acupuncturist I went to seems to be real good. She checked my pulse with her fingers and automatically knew most of the health problems I have including asthma, trouble concentrating, bad short term memory, digestive problems etc. She even knew I live near the sea. It hasn't helped with the withdrawal symptoms yet though.

Has anyone here tried 7,8-dihydroxyflavone for managing and recovering from benzo withdrawals? Heres a thread on them:
http://www.longecity...-3-4-days-study
The claim I find very interesting is:

The compound and its derivatives have the potential to displace or augment a majority of the drugs in the $40 billion anti-depression and anti-anxiety market.



madamshome: What dosage of bacopa do you use to feel the effects? Also, what dosage of inositol are you using?

#70 Raza

  • Guest
  • 454 posts
  • 138
  • Location:?

Posted 25 July 2012 - 06:40 PM

Not so quite, Taurine is indeed a very mild GABA agonist but it is not its main mode of action. In fact it is a GABA agonist because it increases GABA reserves by inhibiting GABA transaminase but on the long term taurine has been shown to increase GABA receptors density quite significantly by the way.

That's very interesting. Do you have a source? I see a lot of hits for "taurine gaba receptor density", but am having trouble finding one that's relevant.

#71 madamshome

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 1

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:42 AM

In case anyone is looking to try afabazole, do not send any money to Pharmacy1010. I did & they have failed to deliver & are uncontactable. This is the first time I have dealt with an unknown supplier & thankfully the first time I have been ripped off, so back to the mainstream suppliers for me.

If anyone does come across a tried & true supplier for afabazole, I would still like to try it.

I am now 2 days completely off the valium, having replaced it with the bacopa, inosine & hawthorn berry. No anxiety but haven't got the doses quite right as still getting some strong nausea so will keep tweaking but I'm hopeful that the benzo nightmare is in the past.

#72 ScienceGuy

  • Life Member
  • 851 posts
  • 1,131
  • Location:UK

Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

Not so quite, Taurine is indeed a very mild GABA agonist but it is not its main mode of action. In fact it is a GABA agonist because it increases GABA reserves by inhibiting GABA transaminase but on the long term taurine has been shown to increase GABA receptors density quite significantly by the way.

That's very interesting. Do you have a source? I see a lot of hits for "taurine gaba receptor density", but am having trouble finding one that's relevant.


Please kindly note that, whilst TAURINE does indeed inhibit GABA transaminase and thereby slow the metabolization of GABA, TAURINE itself also binds directly to the GABAA receptor mimicking the effects of GABA and hence functions directly as a GABA AGONIST. :)

You might find the following of interest: ;)

J Biomed Sci. 2010 Aug 24;17 Suppl 1:S14.

Pharmacological characterization of GABAA receptors in taurine-fed mice.

L'Amoreaux WJ, Marsillo A, El Idrissi A.

Source
Department of Biology, College of Staten Island, 2800 Victory Blvd, Staten Island, NY 10314, USA. William.Lamoreaux@csi.cuny.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Taurine is one of the most abundant free amino acids especially in excitable tissues, with wide physiological actions. Chronic supplementation of taurine in drinking water to mice increases brain excitability mainly through alterations in the inhibitory GABAergic system. These changes include elevated expression level of glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) and increased levels of GABA. Additionally we reported that GABAA receptors were down regulated with chronic administration of taurine. Here, we investigated pharmacologically the functional significance of decreased / or change in subunit composition of the GABAA receptors by determining the threshold for picrotoxin-induced seizures. Picrotoxin, an antagonist of GABAA receptors that blocks the channels while in the open state, binds within the pore of the channel between the beta2 and beta3 subunits. These are the same subunits to which GABA and presumably taurine binds.

METHODS:
Two-month-old male FVB/NJ mice were subcutaneously injected with picrotoxin (5 mg kg-1) and observed for a) latency until seizures began, b) duration of seizures, and c) frequency of seizures. For taurine treatment, mice were either fed taurine in drinking water (0.05%) or injected (43 mg/kg) 15 min prior to picrotoxin injection.

RESULTS:
We found that taurine-fed mice are resistant to picrotoxin-induced seizures when compared to age-matched controls, as measured by increased latency to seizure, decreased occurrence of seizures and reduced mortality rate. In the picrotoxin-treated animals, latency and duration were significantly shorter than in taurine-treated animas. Injection of taurine 15 min before picrotoxin significantly delayed seizure onset, as did chronic administration of taurine in the diet. Further, taurine treatment significantly increased survival rates compared to the picrotoxin-treated mice.

CONCLUSIONS:
We suggest that the elevated threshold for picrotoxin-induced seizures in taurine-fed mice is due to the reduced binding sites available for picrotoxin binding due to the reduced expression of the beta subunits of the GABAA receptor. The delayed effects of picrotoxin after acute taurine injection may indicate that the two molecules are competing for the same binding site on the GABAA receptor. Thus, taurine-fed mice have a functional alteration in the GABAergic system. These include: increased GAD expression, increased GABA levels, and changes in subunit composition of the GABAA receptors. Such a finding is relevant in conditions where agonists of GABAA receptors, such as anesthetics, are administered.

PMID: 20804588

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medical News T. 2010 Jan 18

Scientists Close In On Taurine's Activity In The Brain

Dr. Minerva Yue, Dr. Angelo Keramidas, Dr. Peter A. Goldstein, Dr. Dev Chandra, Dr. Gregg E. Homanics

Source: U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Taurine is one of the most plentiful amino acids in the human brain, but neuroscientists are still puzzled by just how brain cells put it to use. Now, a team of researchers at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York City has uncovered a prime site of activity for the molecule, bringing them closer to solving that mystery.

"We have discovered that taurine is a strong activator of what are known as GABA receptors in a regulatory area of the brain called the thalamus," says study senior author Dr. Neil L. Harrison, professor of pharmacology and pharmacology in anesthesiology at Weill Cornell Medical College. "We had discovered these receptors two years ago and showed that they interact with a neurotransmitter called gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) -- the brain's key inhibitory transmitter -- that is also involved in brain development. It seems that taurine shares these receptors."

The finding is a surprise and opens the door to a better understanding of taurine's impact on the brain, the researchers report in this month's issue of the Journal of Neuroscience.

And while the amino acid is made naturally by the body, it's also a much-touted ingredient in so-called "energy drinks" such as Red Bull. "Its inclusion in these supplements is a little puzzling, because our research would suggest that instead of being a pick-me-up, the taurine actually would have more of a sedative effect on the brain," Dr. Harrison says.

Still, the prime focus of the new study was simply to find a site for the neurological activity of taurine; such a site has been missing despite many years of study.

"Scientists have long questioned whether taurine might act on an as-yet-undiscovered receptor of its own," notes lead researcher Dr. Fan Jia, postdoctoral scientist in the Department of Anesthesiology. "But after some recent work in our lab, we ended up zeroing in on this population of GABA receptors in the thalamus."

The thalamus, located deep in the brain's center, is involved in what neuroscientists call "behavioral state control," helping to regulate transitions between sleep and wakefulness, for example. "It's like a railway junction, controlling information traffic between the brainstem, the senses and the executive functions in the cortex," Dr. Harrison explains. "When you're sleeping, the thalamus is discharging slowly and isolates the cortex from sensory input. But when you're awake, the thalamus allows information from the sensory system to activate the cortex."

Investigating further, the researchers exposed thin slices of thalamic tissue from the brains of mice to concentrations of taurine that were similar to what might be found in the human brain.

"We found that taurine is extraordinarily active on this population of GABA receptors in the thalamus," Dr. Harrison says. "It came as a bit of a surprise that the same receptor was used by both taurine and GABA. Nevertheless, finding taurine's receptor has been like discovering the 'missing link' in taurine biology."

Of course, the question of what taurine actually does in the brain remains unanswered for now. "Unraveling that mystery is the prime goal of that research, and that's where we're headed next." Dr. Harrison says.

There's already one leading theory: "GABA is important for forging new cell-to-cell connections within the developing brain, and because taurine shares a receptor with GABA, it, too, may play a role in neurological development," the researcher speculates.

And what about the energy-drink connection? "Remarkably little is known about the effects of energy drinks on the brain. We can't even be sure how much of the taurine in the drink actually reaches the brain!" Dr. Harrison says. "Assuming that some of it does get absorbed, the taurine -- which, if anything, seems to have a sedating effect on the brain -- may actually play a role in the 'crash' people often report after drinking these highly caffeinated beverages. People have speculated that the post-Red Bull low was simply a caffeine rebound effect, but it might also be due to the taurine content."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J Biomed Sci. 2011 Feb 5;18:11.

Role of taurine on acid secretion in the rat stomach.

Huang KH, Chang CC, Ho JD, Lu RH, Tsai LH.

Source
Department of Ophthalmology, Taipei Medical University Hospital, Taipei Taiwan.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Taurine has chemical structure similar to an inhibitory neurotransmitter, γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Previous studies on GABA in the stomach suggest GABAergic neuron is involved in acid secretion, but the effects of taurine are poor understood.

METHODS:
The effects of taurine on acid secretion, signal transduction, and localization of taurinergic neurons were determined in the rat stomach using everted whole stomach, RIA kit and immunohistochemical methods.

RESULTS:
We used antibodies against taurine-synthesizing enzyme, cysteine sulfuric acid decarboxylase (CSAD), and taurine. CSAD- and taurine-positive cells were found in the muscle and mucosal layers. Distributions of CSAD- and taurine-positive cells in both mucosal and muscle layers were heterogeneous in the stomach. Taurine at 10-9~10-4 M induced [stomach] acid secretion, and the maximum secretion was at 10-5 M, 1.6-fold higher than the spontaneous secretion. Taurine-induced acid secretion was completely inhibited by bicuculline and atropine but not by cimetidine, proglumide, or strychnine. Atropine and tetrodotoxin (TTX) completely inhibited the acid secretion induced by low concentrations of taurine and partially inhibited induced by high concentrations. Verapamil, a calcium blocker agent, inhibited acid output elicited by taurine. We assumed all Ca2+ channels involved in the response to these secretagogues were equally affected by verapamil. Intracellular cAMP (adenosine 3', 5'-monophosphate) in the stomach significantly increased with taurine treatment in a dose-dependent manner. High correlation (r=0.859, p < 0.001) of taurine concentrations with cAMP was observed.

CONCLUSIONS:

Our results demonstrated for the first time in taurine-induced acid secretion due to increase intracellular calcium may act through the A type of GABA receptors, which are mainly located on cholinergic neurons though cAMP pathway and partially on nonneuronal cells in the rat stomach.

PMID: 21294907

Edited by ScienceGuy, 13 August 2012 - 12:20 PM.

  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

#73 ScienceGuy

  • Life Member
  • 851 posts
  • 1,131
  • Location:UK

Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

I would very much appreciate some advice on the bacopa dose as I have had to drop my dose back after 2 instances of major nausea.


Just a suggestion, do you have access to a doctor who would be willing to prescribe you PROMETHAZINE for the NAUSEA? In my experience it can be highly useful and itself is ANXIOLYTIC with a mechanism of action that is not that of GABA RECEPTOR AGONISM and hence might be a highly useful addition to your current stack. :)

Also, you might like to try taking the BACOPA once daily at bedtime, as opposed to splitting the dosage, as see whether this helps prevent the manifestation of NAUSEA during the day. ;)

I am now 2 days completely off the valium, having replaced it with... inosine...


Don't you mean INOSITOL as opposed to INOSINE? FYI - You don't really want to be taking INOSINE for prolonged periods due to it raising risk of developing GOUT and/or KIDNEY STONES through elevating URIC ACID levels. ;)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 13 August 2012 - 12:36 PM.

  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

#74 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

Isn't promethazine OTC? In Ireland you can get promethazine syrup called Phenargen. Its my favourite antihistamine. Chlorphenamine seems to help with benzo w/d symptoms too.

#75 ScienceGuy

  • Life Member
  • 851 posts
  • 1,131
  • Location:UK

Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:12 AM

Isn't promethazine OTC? In Ireland you can get promethazine syrup called Phenargen.


Yes, in some countries PROMETHAZINE is OTC, such as Australia; but in others it is prescription only, such as USA ;)
  • like x 2

#76 jCole

  • Guest
  • 211 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Citizen of Earth

Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:36 AM

Just wanted to log in and say a big THANK YOU to ScienceGuy for the info... extremely helpful.
  • like x 2

#77 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:10 AM

I've been reading a bit about the pharmacology of the main 1st generation antihistamines that are OTC here (diphenhydramine, chlorphenamine and promethazine) and I see that theres a significant difference between them. Diphenhydramine has significant anticholinergic properties whereas promethazine doesn't. Promethazine won't cause the delirium that the OP described for diphenhydramine. Promethazine is very similar in structure to chlorpromazine (seroquel) and it has antipsychotic properties about 10x weaker than that of seroquel. Another OTC one is meclozine but it has significant anticholinergic properties.
  • dislike x 1

#78 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:43 AM

What I said in my previous reply was wrong. Promethazine does have moderate anticholinergic properties. I've never experienced any deliriant effects from it but I've never taken it in very high doses because this motion sickness syrup is a rip off (€6 for a bottle containing 4 doses). Also seroquel is quetiapine, not chlorpromazine.
  • dislike x 1

#79 quamquam91

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 28 posts
  • 6
  • Location:USA

Posted 25 August 2012 - 03:58 PM

Hello everyone,

WITHDRAWAL PROGRESS
My cold-turkey withdrawal has mostly abated. Looking back, I can share some information about how the supplements I tried affected the process.

Gotu kola gave me profound relief, but afterward my symptoms worsened. I believe that my sporadic use of gotu kola, holy basil, and other GABA-A agonists prolonged the overall process of withdrawing. They would clear up obsessive/fearful/repetitive thinking for a couple days, only to plunge me into a worsened schizoid state of mind after wearing off.

I made my most grievous error two months ago. My symptoms had completely dispelled for a period of a few weeks, so I took the risk of drinking about three units of alcohol. Old withdrawal symptoms flared up, and I continue to suffer migraines, digestive problems, and brain fog that had previously cleared up.

SUPPLEMENT RETROSPECTIVE
In the thick of the withdrawal:
  • Inositol helped a great deal with anxiety without apparent ill effects when I stopped taking it. However, it seemed to worsen the tongue-tied feeling I had throughout withdrawal.
  • Bacopa flattened my mood and my thinking--I don't know how else to describe it. As with inositol, I had a harder time speaking fluently.
  • Piracetam seemed to help a bit, though combining it with choline was disturbing and dysphoric.
  • L-theanine was helpful. In large doses, profoundly flattening and asocial, and not good for sleep. (Made me feel like lying down, but did not assist me in falling asleep.) Pleasantly, combining l-theanine with caffeine helped me to do better socially, speak more clearly, and to think more sharply, while preventing the tweaked-out feeling that caffeine would usually cause while I was withdrawing.
  • Magnesium (either citrate or malate, which I tried on separate occasions) alleviated anxiety without having the flattening effect, but large doses caused my lymph nodes to swell up and turned my saliva into a sort of sour gel.
  • Fish oil affected me like speed while I was withdrawing. I think I took too much at once.
  • Decaffeinated coffee had a subtle soothing effect. It calmed my thinking and reduced unpleasant physical sensations (e.g. the feeling I would get that my skull was boiling from the inside--I am hyperbolizing, but you get the idea) with no discernible effect on my ability to fall asleep. I recommend decaf coffee above any other supplement I tried.
CURRENT STATUS
I do not take any supplements except, sometimes, caffeine in the form of chocolate, tea, or coffee. Caffeine affects me the same way now that it did pre-benzos; I tolerate it well.

Brain fog is a persistent problem. For me, eating less is the most effective nootropic and helps to dispel the fog!

Edited by quamquam91, 25 August 2012 - 04:18 PM.


#80 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for the update. So its been over 6 months since you started this thread, meaning it took around 18 months for you to get where you are now. Thats an extremely long time but I'm glad you finally recovered.

#81 Kompota

  • Guest
  • 81 posts
  • 5
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:08 AM

quamquam91

You say brain fog had been gone completely before you decided to take some alcohol ?

#82 inw

  • Guest
  • 45 posts
  • 2
  • Location:US

Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:11 AM

QuamQuam - How long after the start of withdrawal were you 100% for good? I guess you know you are 100% when you feel normal all the time and you can drink alchohol without getting withdrawal the next day

#83 quamquam91

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 28 posts
  • 6
  • Location:USA

Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

quamquam91

You say brain fog had been gone completely before you decided to take some alcohol ?


Yes, the brain fog had dispelled completely before I drank alcohol.

QuamQuam - How long after the start of withdrawal were you 100% for good? I guess you know you are 100% when you feel normal all the time and you can drink alchohol without getting withdrawal the next day

-

I am not "100% for good" if that means feeling normal all the time. I certainly would not risk drinking alcohol again. My mind still fogs sometimes, making it difficult to read, and I still get stuck on obsessive thoughts and have elevated anxiety. I think that drug use and withdrawal has ingrained poisonous patterns of thinking which will take further time and effort for me to move past.

I will note that eating foods with corn or corn derivatives in them aggravates these lingering symptoms. If I eat something with cornstarch, dextrose, xanthan gum, or any number of other ingredients, I begin to have trouble breathing, my mood and thinking worsen, and my heart begins to pound. I did not suffer this reaction pre-withdrawal, so the withdrawal seems to have created a food allergy or sensitivity.

Aside from controlling my eating, being around other people is my most effective tactic for mitigating withdrawal symptoms. Spending a few hours in the company of friends gets my thoughts unstuck (for lack of a better word), soothes my feelings, and even helps me think more clearly.

And at this point I am capable of intellectual work, of comporting myself socially, and of experiencing a normal range of feelings. Even on bad days, I am profoundly relieved.

#84 inw

  • Guest
  • 45 posts
  • 2
  • Location:US

Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:31 PM

Thanks for the reply, that's good info, I am on BenzoBuddies and noticed a ton of people with "new" food allergies. I am going through xanax withdrawal and I can tell you that I took the prescribed dose up to 3mg/day and tapered over TWO YEARS down to .25mg and at that dose I got tolerance withdrawal. Total duration on xanax was ~3.5yrs and celexa with it ~3 yrs. Seemed like the celexa was masking the constant xanax withdrawal the whole time until I reached .25mg in the taper then I hit full blown withdrawal.

I'm ~4 months since my last dose, I get windows here and there, but I've had chronic fatigue,derealization, very high anxiety, intermittent stomach bloating/throat tightness among many other symptoms since January '12. Apple Cider vinegar helped tremendously with the bloating and throat issues.

I am going to try Bacopa, L-Theanine, and Magnesium as suggested here.

#85 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:39 PM

quamquam91 and inw: I recommend you look into kambo. Its venom from the phyllomedusa bicolor frog. I did it 3 times directly after quitting xanax (the next day), maybe that has something to do with why my symptoms are so mild. I was taking 1-3mg of xanax daily for 2 months in total, I took my last dose 12 days ago and I feel abnormally good every day. I stopped taking trazodone (was taking 50mg each night to sleep) 2 days ago so I'm completely off everything. I strongly suspect the kambo helped. Its relatively unexplored territory, I have never heard of anyone using kambo for benzo w/ds before but I have heard from people who claim that kambo cured their opioid PAWS. I'm going to do another kambo session soon, I will tell you how it goes.

#86 quamquam91

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 28 posts
  • 6
  • Location:USA

Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:00 AM

The symptoms I complained about in my last post have cleared up. I am once again symptom-free.

I believe my headaches, brain fog, and painful nausea of the past few weeks were the result of accidentally eating gluten (I have Celiac). This might be too much information, but I was shitting yellow the whole time--yellow stool being a symptom of Celiac-related malabsorption.

I can still say with confidence that drinking alcohol three months ago thrust me back into the thick of withdrawal, as I suffered a flare-up of quite a few symptoms prior to the past couple weeks of yellow shit.

But my point is that at least some of the recent symptoms that I attributed to withdrawal were likely the result of Celiac, a condition I had pre-benzos.

#87 inw

  • Guest
  • 45 posts
  • 2
  • Location:US

Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:38 PM

Glad to hear the other symptoms cleared up. I started taking Bacopa,L-Theanine,Magnesium Malate, and Inositol. Will see how it does. My biggest symptoms are the agoraphobia (anxiety and panic when going too far away from home) and lethargy. I am ~4+ months off the xanax and lately I have been able to do more physical things like walk for 45+ minutes and pushups.

I know it's crazy that the GABA receptors are messed up so far out from the last dose that the alcohol you had put you back into withdrawal. I guess when we have ZERO symptoms for 4-8 weeks straight we will know we are back to normal.

#88 thegron

  • Guest
  • 53 posts
  • 5
  • Location:United States

Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:55 PM

Hi all,

I'm so glad I stumbled upon this thread. I have suffered from protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal for a long time now. I starting taking clonazepam (anywhere from 0.125mg to 0.5mg probably only three times a week) about four years ago. About a year and a half into it I noticed the mental deterioration (and that's only one of the symptoms) but never chalked it up to the benzos until about a month and a half ago. Once I realized that it was the culprit, I threw them out. Now, I never went through physical withdrawal because I never took them more than three times a week. So far, I feel a tiny bit clearer but still my GABA receptors are all f'ed up lol. It's horrible... if any of you take benzos, STOP! But taper....

Anyhow, ScienceGuy, thank you for posting so many informative studies on this thread. I also have some questions for you if you do not mind.

For ScienceGuy!

1. So what is the goal here? From what I have read above, I need to avoid GABA agonists and try to take agents that upregulate GABAR?
2. Why shouldn't I take Picamilon? It isn't a GABAR agonist per se. It provides the brain with more GABA (I do believe it crosses the BBB) but I would think that it is totally different than a GABAR agonist. Would it still cause downregulation?
3. What is your opinion of Afobazole? I am a little worried about its safety because it makes me nervous that it isn't widely used outside of Russia... Also, it is an MAOI. Does that mean I have to watch my tyramine intake when I take it?
4. I am excited by your postings on Bacopa monnieri. Only problem is that I do not react well to 5HT1a receptor agonists (I have tried Buspirone, Fluoxetine, and Sertraline). Do you think I would have a bad reaction to Bacopa?
5. I know that time will help the most with this condition (hopefully it isn't permanent) but it could take years to feel appreciably better. Are there any other compounds you can think of that might help me rebalance my GABA receptors?

#89 thegron

  • Guest
  • 53 posts
  • 5
  • Location:United States

Posted 16 September 2012 - 12:43 AM

Also, take a look at this thread. Apparently Kava Kava actually upregulates GABAR??

http://www.longecity...r-upregulation/

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#90 mycotheologist

  • Guest
  • 76 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 September 2012 - 01:03 AM

Don't take what ScienceGuy says as absolute truth. He has a lot of knowledge but we're all capable of being wrong about some things. Picamilon won't slow down your recovery too greatly. It is a GABA agonist though because GABA is the endogenous ligand for GABA receptors. The mechanism of afobazole is poorly known and its speculated to have some GABAergic activity. I think its well worth trying but something I think be more inclined to recommend is 7,8-dihydroxyflavone if you can get your hands on it. Downregulation of GABA_a receptors isn't necessarily the sole cause of protracted benzo w/d symptoms. In fact, I suspect its not even a significant part. I think Kompota is spot on. The problem is a structural change to the benzodiazepine site. That would explain why flumazenil produces long lasting relief from protracted withdrawal symptoms. Flumazenil is an inverse BZ agonist so its the polar opposite of a benzo.

Heres a few GABA_a inverse agonists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%915IA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TB-21007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-655,708
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWZ-029

They all seem to have cognitive enhancing properties. I'm sure we could figure out how to get our hands on some of these. Anyone wanna be a guinea pig? I'm up for it but my symptoms are very mild. Brain fog is one of my symptoms though so I'll test these substances on myself if I can get my hands on any of them.

Edited by mycotheologist, 16 September 2012 - 01:08 AM.

  • dislike x 2





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: benzodiazepines, withdrawal, gotu kola, piracetam, bacopa, nootropics, insomina, delusions, depression, brain fog

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users