223 replies to this topic

[Luminosity]

dickkopf-1* (Dkk-1) via alkaline phosphatase activity, releasing ascorbic acid into the cell; leading to neurogenesis.

*Seriously? What does the rest of that sentence even mean?

[Logic]

dickkopf-1* (Dkk-1) via alkaline phosphatase activity, releasing ascorbic acid into the cell; leading to neurogenesis.

*Seriously? What does the rest of that sentence even mean?

It means that L-Threonate is turned into intracellular Ascorbic Acid by alkaline phosphatase activity where it neutralises the DKK-1 protein; allowing normal, young level neurogenesis.

My apologies for oversimplifying the sentence in an effort to make it more readable.

[ta5]

It means that L-Threonate is turned into intracellular Ascorbic Acid by alkaline phosphatase activity where it neutralises the DKK-1 protein; allowing normal, young level neurogenesis.

My apologies for oversimplifying the sentence in an effort to make it more readable.

Maybe L-Threonate and maybe not Magnesium-L-Threonate. I don't think you can say they will share the same effects.

Edited by ta5, 15 May 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Logic]

Maybe L-Threonate and maybe not Magnesium-L-Threonate. I don't think you can say they will share the same effects.

Read the studies!
I THINK that you cant get L-Threonate on its own: You have to chelate something like Magnesium or Calcium to get it?

Edited by Logic, 15 May 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[ta5]

Maybe L-Threonate and maybe not Magnesium-L-Threonate. I don't think you can say they will share the same effects.

Read the studies!
I THINK that you cant get L-Threonate on its own: You have to chelate something like Magnesium or Calsium to get it?

I had looked at the abstracts you posted in your other thread.

Edited by ta5, 15 May 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

Maybe L-Threonate and maybe not Magnesium-L-Threonate. I don't think you can say they will share the same effects.

Read the studies!
I THINK that you cant get L-Threonate on its own: You have to chelate something like Magnesium or Calsium to get it?

I had looked at the abstracts you posted in your other thread.

Personally, my recommendation if you are specifically seeking to supplement with L-THREONIC ACID / THREONATE is to take some ESTER-C; this comprises CALCIUM ASCORBATE-THREONATE, and provides high concentrations of both L-THREONATE as well as VITAMIN C in a highly bioactive form.

IMO this offers much better value for money than MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE

Maybe L-Threonate and maybe not Magnesium-L-Threonate. I don't think you can say they will share the same effects.

You have a valid point; however, whether it does or does not would depend upon the precise mechanism of action; wherein, if the therapeutic effect is attained as a consequence of elevating systemic levels of THREONATE then pretty much any THREONATE SALT should yield said beneficial effect (as well as FREE FORM L-THREONIC ACID of course)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 15 May 2013 - 01:16 PM.

[Ukko]

Folks, forget the trivial increase in magnesium. Does not matter and can be reached in very many different ways. Instead, I believe that the magic is in the L-threonate moiety, i.e. L-threonic acid. Check this:

1. Problem: Vitamin C in the ascorbic acid form does not cross the BBB to brain. Traditionally, it was thought that it was the dehydroascorbic acid form how vitamin C got to the brain. Using glucose transports given the similarity between glucose and Vit c chemically. http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC508490/

2. Vitamin C is hugely important for brain function. We should all know that low brain vitamin C leads to low dopamine. Uncool, don't want that. What is also known is that vitamin C is needed for healthy BDNF production. Lots of studies on that...start from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15627972

3. How does Mg threonate fit into the picture? Well, its other part is threonic acid a molecule closely related to ascorbic acid. In fact, its breakdown product. Put there is increasingly data on threonic acid being able to do whatever ascorbic acid does, even preventing scurvy the classic syptom of vitamin C deficieny. Irrelevant whether threonic acid can actually be converted back to ascorbic acid or whether when we speak of scurcy and vitamin C deficiency, we are actually talking about threonic acid deficiency. Guess what? Threonic acid is up to 4 times better as vitamin C than ascorbic acid itself in that it prevents scurvy four times better than ascorbic acid. Wow. http://www.immunesup...ws/94spr002.htm It also hugely boosts cell uptake of ascorbic acid, maybe this is the mechanism. But it does not matter. Threonic acid makes the vitamin C metabolism work vastly better and it crosses over to brain through the BBB, at least when bound to a mineral like magnesium. Check this too:

"Dr. Veriangieri has shown that adding L-threonic acid to ascorbic acid or calcium ascorbate results in the same improved vitamin C activity as provided with calcium threonate. Additionally, he has shown that in a special breed of laboratory rat called the Osteogenic Disorder Shionogi (ODS) rat, calcium threonate is four to five times more effective than ascorbic acid in preventing scurvy. This is the accepted method for measuring vitamin C activity.The ODS rats do not manufacture vitamin C in their bodies. Thus, they have the same genetic handicap that humans do. For this reason ODS rats may replace guinea pigs for studying vitamin C."

So, it seems clear that both calcium and magnesium threonate will help to raise L-threonic acid levels in the brain, which in turn will have positive impact on things like brain antioxidant defenses, brain metabolism, BDNF and even dopamine. I bet you anything that the great results from the MG threonate studies are mostly due to this. After all, the increases in brain magnesium levels from mg threonate are too small to really matter much. There was a great thread on this recently.

It is not the magnesium. It is the L-threonate i.e. L-threonic acid. Just as it is on the balding human scalp.

[Ukko]

And check this out. They looked at the brain hippocampus biomarkers for biggest changes when one of the most commonly used anti-depressants, namely Paroxentine, was used. Take guess, which biomarker was most elevated? L-Threonic Acid. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3309495/

[ScienceGuy]

Folks, forget the trivial increase in magnesium. Does not matter and can be reached in very many different ways... After all, the increases in brain magnesium levels from mg threonate are too small to really matter much...

I wholeheartedly agree that the increase in MAGNESIUM levels in the BRAIN appear to be pretty much the same between MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE and other MAGNESIUM forms; which was after all kind of the point of this thread

However, I disagree with your dismissing MAGNESIUM's value so readily; in that up to an 18% increase in BRAIN MAGNESIUM LEVELS (which is achieved via the various different MAGNESIUM forms) is most certainly significant, not trivial; and significant enough to have considerable medical and health applications... for example, in treating ENCEPHALITIS; wherein, MAGNESIUM application is highly effective.

But you are right that, with respect to the current conversation, it is indeed L-THREONIC ACID / THREONATE that should be the focus here, as it is indeed clearly what is responsible for the alleged NEUROGENESIS effect and not the MAGNESIUM component

1. Problem: Vitamin C in the ascorbic acid form does not cross the BBB to brain. Traditionally, it was thought that it was the dehydroascorbic acid form how vitamin C got to the brain...

To clarify, ESTER-C comprises circa 10% as CALCIUM THREONATE-DEHYDROASCORBATE (i.e. THREONATE bonded to the DEHYDROASCORBIC ACID form of VITAMIN C), and hence it does in fact readily cross the BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER (BBB); N.B. this is outlined in its PATENT INFORMATON which you can find here: US PATENT NUMBER WO2008103926 A1

Hence one of my reasons for recommending it as a highly bioactive way of supplementing with THREONATE and IMO preferred to MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE which is very expensive to boot

Edited by ScienceGuy, 16 May 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[Ukko]

To clarify, ESTER-C comprises circa 10% as CALCIUM THREONATE-DEHYDROASCORBATE (i.e. THREONATE bonded to the DEHYDROASCORBIC ACID form of VITAMIN C), and hence it does in fact readily cross the BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER (BBB); N.B. this is outlined in its PATENT INFORMATON which you can find here: US PATENT NUMBER WO2008103926 A1

Hence one of my reasons for recommending it as a highly bioactive way of supplementing with THREONATE and IMO preferred to MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE which is very expensive to boot

Rock on. Sounds like we agree. Will try some Ester-C. Vitamin C is so key for both dopamine synthesis and BDNF in the brain. As I mentioned elsewhere, next patent magnesium compounds coming from China will be "magnesium cocaine" for "chronic fatigue syndrome" and "magnesium sildenafil" for erectile dysfunction. Raising magnesium levels in your scrotum will do wonders for your sex life, they'll say

[ScienceGuy]

Rock on. Sounds like we agree.

Indeed we do

...next patent magnesium compounds coming from China will be "magnesium cocaine" for "chronic fatigue syndrome" and "magnesium sildenafil" for erectile dysfunction. Raising magnesium levels in your scrotum will do wonders for your sex life, they'll say

Nail... Head... Hit!

"Raising magnesium levels in your scrotum..." - Mmmm, that could be a bit painful for me given I administer my MAGNESIUM via INJECTION

[xsiv1]

Gawd damn it Science Guy! Please, let me spend my money frivolously, especially if I feel a placebo effect from an expensive supplement I've been purchasing since January 1st. It grows hair for pete's sake! I need to enjoy the perception that I've stumbled upon something great before most others on the forums have discovered it's 'true' beneficial properties.

Next thing you're going to tell me is that you agree with the thread I posted entitled, "Fish Oils do Nothing". (sigh)

[ScienceGuy]

Gawd damn it Science Guy! Please, let me spend my money frivolously, especially if I feel a placebo effect from an expensive supplement I've been purchasing since January 1st. It grows hair for pete's sake! I need to enjoy the perception that I've stumbled upon something great before most others on the forums have discovered it's 'true' beneficial properties.

There is a human clinical study currently in progress on MAGNESIUM THREONATE... Who knows, it may report amazing results

In the interim I can mail you some SUGAR PILLS if you like (N.B. did you know that the PLACEBO EFFECT occurs even when you are told it is a PLACEBO?)

Next thing you're going to tell me is that you agree with the thread I posted entitled, "Fish Oils do Nothing". (sigh)

Nope

[xsiv1]

Of course, I did not suffer through Grad school to get a paper without knowing anything about research, various research methodologies and inherent biases easily detected in published studies.

I will say though, that if this Mag-T product I've been taking in the mornings doesn't actually improve cognition without any sedation, than it truly is a placebo effect. If this turns out to be the case, please send me your 'samples' - but, if you'd be so kind, give it a cool name or put it in a colorful capsule or something will ya?

[ScienceGuy]

Of course, I did not suffer through Grad school to get a paper without knowing anything about research, various research methodologies and inherent biases easily detected in published studies.

I will say though, that if this Mag-T product I've been taking in the mornings doesn't actually improve cognition without any sedation, than it truly is a placebo effect. If this turns out to be the case, please send me your 'samples' - but, if you'd be so kind, give it a cool name or put it in a colorful capsule or something will ya?

Just in case there is any misunderstanding please kindly note that I was not for an instant suggesting that MGT is no more effective than a PLACEBO... I was joking

[blood]

According to this 2011 Nutraingredients article, results of a human trial with magnesium threonate were expected by mid 2012:

http://www.nutraingr...pected-mid-2012

Human data on memory-boosting magnesium compound expected mid-2012

By Elaine Watson , 30-Nov-2011

Preliminary results of a human study into Magtein - a patent-pending magnesium compound called magnesium-L-threonate claimed to boost memory and cognitive function - will be available next year.

Given the intense interest in cognitive health ingredients, Magtein – which is self-affirmed GRAS, soluble in water, odorless, tasteless and colorless - has already attracted a lot of interest in the dietary supplements and food sector following the publication of a high-profile animal study conducted by scientists at MIT in the journal Neuron last year.

This showed that Magtein – developed by Magceutics and distributed by AIDP on an exclusive basis - could increase learning ability, working memory, and short- and long-term memory in young and aged rats.

It also showed that common magnesium compounds do not effectively improve brain magnesium levels (Enhancement of Learning and Memory by Elevating Brain Magnesium, Slutsky I, Abumaria N, Wu LJ, Huang C, Zhang L, Li B, Zhao X, Govindarajan A, Zhao MG, Zhuo M, Tonegawa S, Liu G. Neuron. 2010 Jan 28;65(2):165-77).

Food firms interested but waiting for results of human trial

A human study, which has just started at the University of Southern California, is now looking at whether these results can be replicated in people, said an AIDP spokesman.

“The human clinical study is a double-blind, placebo controlled study with 40 individuals. Preliminary results will be available by mid-2012.”

He did not disclose the age or cognitive abilities of the volunteers are being studied, what biomarkers will be monitored and what cognitive tests will be performed, adding: “As this study is in the initial phases, the design details are confidential at this point.

“But we will be happy to share more when the study is completed.”

Anyone know if these results were ever released? I haven't been able to locate them.

Edited by blood, 25 June 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[xsiv1]

I'd be very interested to see the results as well. Sometimes these things take longer than expected.

[Introspecta]

I've been using Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate Oil. Great results. I've tried different topical magnesiums but this one seems to be great. Bought from Earthshiftproducts.

Will be testing out Magesium L-Threonate soon and will compare results now that I've actually found a magnesium that I can feel the effects. I'm guessing that the oil will be more effective. One oil I tried left a milky white residue and dried my skin out really bad. Mag oil by Life flo was the name.

[xsiv1]

I've been using Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate Oil. Great results. I've tried different topical magnesiums but this one seems to be great. Bought from Earthshiftproducts.

Will be testing out Magesium L-Threonate soon and will compare results now that I've actually found a magnesium that I can feel the effects. I'm guessing that the oil will be more effective. One oil I tried left a milky white residue and dried my skin out really bad. Mag oil by Life flo was the name.

I can't say for sure since the placebo effect could be possible here, but if I take Magtein in the morning, I don't experience any sedation but it calms me before meetings etc yet doesn't impair cognition at all. I feel clear and aware of what I'm about to speak about. Again, seemingly the best results from the magnesium products I've used in the past including taurinate and glycinate. I haven't experienced any gastrointestinal issues with any of the aforementioned to be sure.

[blood]

I'd be very interested to see the results as well. Sometimes these things take longer than expected.

Another possibility is that the results were disappointing, and it was decided not to release them.

[Ukko]

I'd be very interested to see the results as well. Sometimes these things take longer than expected.

Another possibility is that the results were disappointing, and it was decided not to release them.

The test they should do is to feed one group of folks Magnesium Threonate, another an equal amount of something like Ester-C that has plain Vit C, dehydroascorbic acid and threonic acid in it ... as well as have a third placebo group. Then see which groups improves most in terms of memory and cognitive function. I would bet my money on it being the Ester-C group, but I would also not bet my money on the folks with a patent for Magnesium Threonate not ever doing such a study

[xsiv1]

I'd be very interested to see the results as well. Sometimes these things take longer than expected.

Another possibility is that the results were disappointing, and it was decided not to release them.

The test they should do is to feed one group of folks Magnesium Threonate, another an equal amount of something like Ester-C that has plain Vit C, dehydroascorbic acid and threonic acid in it ... as well as have a third placebo group. Then see which groups improves most in terms of memory and cognitive function. I would bet my money on it being the Ester-C group, but I would also not bet my money on the folks with a patent for Magnesium Threonate not ever doing such a study

That'd be ideal but hopefully there's no vested interest in the funding of the research. That would suck. I'm not sure where their grant came from...usually a declaration is made if it makes it into a Journal but if there are numerous grants..money is easier to 'hide' so-to-speak. I'd love to see the truth.

[Luddist]

*snip* it is indeed L-THREONIC ACID / THREONATE that should be the focus here, as it is indeed clearly what is responsible for the alleged NEUROGENESIS effect and not the MAGNESIUM component


To clarify, ESTER-C comprises circa 10% as CALCIUM THREONATE-DEHYDROASCORBATE (i.e. THREONATE bonded to the DEHYDROASCORBIC ACID form of VITAMIN C), and hence it does in fact readily cross the BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER (BBB); N.B. this is outlined in its PATENT INFORMATON which you can find here: US PATENT NUMBER WO2008103926 A1

Hence one of my reasons for recommending it as a highly bioactive way of supplementing with THREONATE and IMO preferred to MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE which is very expensive to boot

Where do you get the 10% calcium threonate content estimate? Taking a look at Ester-C's facts, "threonate" comes last in a proprietary list of bioflavanoid ingredients totaling 200mg in both the 500mg and 1000mg tablet versions. I searched every reference to threonate in the linked patent but did not notice compositional information.

My curiosity lies in comparing threonic acid dosages between magnesium L-threonate and Ester-C. If a daily dose of 2g Magtein-branded MgLT contains 144mg elemental magnesium, the L-threonic acid dose is 1856mg right? Going off the facts for this calcium L-threonate supplement, 675mg of L-threonic acid binds to 100mg elemental calcium.

With the Magtein brand supplements costing as low as $20 for 30 2g MgLT doses, I wonder if Ester-C would be less cost effective or if it would be able to supply sufficient threonic acid for therapeutic effect (before administering a massive dose of vitamin C in the form of calcium ascorbate).

Edited by Luddist, 26 June 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[Luddist]

By the way ScienceGuy I am looking into this supplement (and have a bottle in the mail) to see if it will significantly help neurological symptoms related to tick-borne infections. When searching this forum for Lyme threads I remember you also had/have them, is that also why you find interest in this? If you don't want to derail this thread, see my thread. I'd be very happy to hear your experience and outcome!

[Luddist]

Based on those articles about a human trial for Magtein, I called USC's Memory and Aging Center inquiring about any studies being done with magnesium l-threonate and the person I talked to said 1) a study begun in 2011 isn't likely to be published yet BUT 2) did not know of or recall any study being done with it. Maybe I called the wrong center but I figured they'd be the ones doing such a trial. Who knows what happened to it. I've also sent emails to both AIDP and Magceutics.

Guess we'll have to go with anecdotes, and I'll contribute mine in a few weeks to a month.

Edited by Luddist, 26 June 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Luddist]

Got a reply fast from Dr. Guosong Liu from emailing Magceutics. This is the guy primarily responsible for this compound being available. Good news everyone:

Hi,



Human clinical trial will be finished in the middle of September. The time it take to finish a human clinical trial is always longer that what people anticipate. Fortunately, we are close to finish.

If you are interested in science, we just published anther people showing that MgT can prevent Alzheimer disease in animal model.

Best,

Guosong

The recently published Alzheimer's animal study:
Elevation of Brain Magnesium Prevents and Reverses Cognitive Deficits and Synaptic Loss in Alzheimer's Disease Mouse Model

Abstract

Profound synapse loss is one of the major pathological hallmarks associated with Alzheimer's disease (AD) and might underlie memory impairment. Our previous work demonstrated that the magnesium ion is a critical factor in controlling synapse density/plasticity. Here, we investigated whether elevation of brain magnesium by the use of a recently developed compound, magnesium-l-threonate (MgT), can ameliorate the AD-like pathologies and cognitive deficits in the APPswe/PS1dE9 mice, a transgenic (Tg) mouse model of AD. MgT treatment reduced Aβ plaque and prevented synapse loss and memory decline in the Tg mice. Strikingly, MgT treatment was effective even when given to the mice at the end stage of their AD-like pathological progression. To explore how elevation of brain magnesium ameliorates the AD-like pathologies in the brains of Tg mice, we studied molecules critical for APP metabolism and signaling pathways implicated in synaptic plasticity/density. In the Tg mice, the NMDAR/CREB/BDNF signaling was downregulated, whereas calpain/calcineurin/Cdk5 neurodegenerative signaling and β-secretase (BACE1) expression were upregulated. MgT treatment prevented the impairment of these signaling pathways, stabilized BACE1 expression, and reduced soluble APPβ and β-C-terminal fragments in the Tg mice. At the molecular level, elevation of extracellular magnesium prevented the high-Aβ-induced reductions in synaptic NMDARs by preventing calcineurin overactivation in hippocampal slices. Correlation studies suggested that the protection of NMDAR signaling might underlie the stabilization of BACE1 expression. Our results suggest that elevation of brain magnesium exerts substantial synaptoprotective effects in a mouse model of AD and may have therapeutic potential for treating AD in humans.

Based on this video, Dr. Liu seems convinced that the full therapeutic action here is the magnesium and not the threonic acid. His opinion seems to be that the threonate's function is only to get the Mg to the brain.

Edited by Luddist, 26 June 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[xsiv1]

Luddist man, you're awesome! If I could give you reps I would. I guess voting up does something but that was a great idea. I'm telling you, I've felt different (in a positive way) since I've been taking Magnesium L-threonate. Now, the price point is significantly high, but that's all relative anyways. If it's the threonate or the magnesium, I don't really care at this point. Thanks a lot for this information and the links.

[Ukko]

Respect for Dr. Liu. But he's the guy with the patent. Kind of like listening to stock brokers or realtors as to whether prices will rise. Guess the answer?

[Luddist]

Respect for Dr. Liu. But he's the guy with the patent. Kind of like listening to stock brokers or realtors as to whether prices will rise. Guess the answer?

Of course. I only wanted to find out if there was still a human trial going on, which he confirmed and said it would be completed September. Who knows when it will be published. Given his financial interest in MgT, the research should be read with a scrutinizing eye.

His patents for this compound are fairly recent so he'd have a long and lucrative run if it were to be approved as a pharmaceutical. Can anyone comment on how long this might take to happen? IE when Magtein would disappear from shelves (just in case I like it), like that bullshit with the form of vitamin B6.

Edited by Luddist, 27 June 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[xsiv1]

Truth. The Dr. does have a vested interest in it. It was still interesting to read.