68 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

cannabis can be very theraputic, but there are negatives that people simply don't account for. I made a post earlier in this thread about contaminants in cannabis and it didn't go over well, so I'm making the point again because it is incredibly important to account for. Don't take my word for it, educate yourself:

http://www.baycitize...cides-your-pot/

http://www.examiner....-and-pesticides

http://www.cannabism...t/contaminants/

http://www.hempfood....A/iha01205.html

http://adai.washingt...ntamination.htm

Cannabis usually has other compounds present in it, and that is a fact. The same thing happens with multi-vitamins, many are contaminated with lead and cadmium, and other toxic compounds. This is real people, and it cannot be ignored.

Nobody has ever died from smoking pot... I had a friend in high school who smoked a joint cut with pcp. She had a grand maul seizure and died. As far as she knew, she was smoking pot. Or, how about this:

"Recently in the United Kingdom there have been reports of glass beads being added from a spray to increase the weight of the plant and mimic the appearance of greater potency. Separate reports from Germany of lead particles being added to increase weight have also more recently appeared. These occurrences, although rare, are of great concern and have resulted in hospitalisations." (http://adai.washingt...ntamination.htm)

Based on this information, which all popped up after about 3 minutes of google searches, cannabis can be contaminated with fungus, mold, herbicides, pesticides, compounds to increase weight (LEAD and GLASS BEADS), and microbials. I can tell you from my personal experience that growers will practically water their plants with pesticides to keep the little black bugs off their crop. Pot is big $ for everyone involved, including dispensaries. This is real people, know whats going on here.

I wouldn't advise you vaporize pot of a sketchy origin. I would also never advise anyone to smoke pot, even good pot. Medical patients are advised to know their caregivers intimately, and to understand which lights and nutrients they use in their grows. There are some growers (particularly in medical states) who wouldn't touch chemicals besides organic nutrients and distilled water. Even then, some of the better growers water their plants with pure, distilled water for 2 weeks prior to harvest, thereby draining over 95% of the three macronutrients from the plants (nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium) down the ionic gradient, and into the water...since most people shouldn't be ingesting high doses of combusted macronutrients.

[hippocampus]

In my experience, it didn't increase memory the same day I smoked cannabis, but the brain fog I would generally experience the few days after using cannabis would completely disappear while I took the kappa blocker (in my case naloxone, not naltrexone, but they work on the same receptor systems). I have a theory that over time, THC affects the kappa-opioid receptor system in some fashion, which leads to depersonalization disorder (which causes memory impairment and anxiety on top of other negative effects). Kappa blockers will negate these negative effects and bring clarity back to mind.

You might be right that cannabis is involved with κ-opioid receptors: (http://www.cannabis....oids/index.html [not the most reliable source, needs to be confirmed]).


About the relation to depersonalization:

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....zation_disorder):

Naloxone (strong μ-opioid receptor antagonist, weak κ- and δ-opioid receptor antagonist) and naltrexone (strong "competitive antagonists at μ- and κ-opioid receptors, and to a lesser extent at δ-opioid receptors")have both been studied for the treatment of depersonalization disorder. In a 2001 study with naloxone, three of fourteen patients lost their depersonalization symptoms entirely, and seven showed marked improvement ^[1] . The findings of a 2005 naltrexone study were slightly less promising, with an average of a 30% reduction of symptoms, as measured by 3 validated dissociation scales ^[2]. The more dramatic result of naloxone versus naltrexone is suspected to be due to different endogenous opioid receptor selectivity in naloxone, which is better suited to individuals suffering from depersonalization disorder.

According to your theory, norbinaltorphimine (a highly selective κ-opioid receptor antagonist) would do best for depersonalization. There's not too much about that topic, but here is a good review that's fairly recent: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2740476/.

this is consistent with people smoking salvia divinorum after smoking a joint. salvia trip usually lasts about 5-10 minuts (and up to 1 hour come down), but with weed it lasts up to 1 hour (with longer come down). salvia divinorum is potent κ-opioid agonist, but it also acts on D2 as agonist.

[kevinseven11]

The floppy dick is probably caused by an increase in estrogen. Weed is known to help cause gynecomastia. Hops which is very similar to cannabis also raises estrogen. If you counter the estrogen then you should be in the clear. Ive read a study indicating that combusted organic particles can affect your cardiovascular system in a manner that will lead to reversible ED. These are two mechanisms that can be countered with estrogen blockers and vaporizers.

The depersonalization aspect of cannabis is in my opinion the greatest feature of it. This feeling allows a different viewpoint on things.

[Spectre]

In my experience, it didn't increase memory the same day I smoked cannabis, but the brain fog I would generally experience the few days after using cannabis would completely disappear while I took the kappa blocker (in my case naloxone, not naltrexone, but they work on the same receptor systems). I have a theory that over time, THC affects the kappa-opioid receptor system in some fashion, which leads to depersonalization disorder (which causes memory impairment and anxiety on top of other negative effects). Kappa blockers will negate these negative effects and bring clarity back to mind.

You might be right that cannabis is involved with κ-opioid receptors: (http://www.cannabis....oids/index.html [not the most reliable source, needs to be confirmed]).


About the relation to depersonalization:

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....zation_disorder):

Naloxone (strong μ-opioid receptor antagonist, weak κ- and δ-opioid receptor antagonist) and naltrexone (strong "competitive antagonists at μ- and κ-opioid receptors, and to a lesser extent at δ-opioid receptors")have both been studied for the treatment of depersonalization disorder. In a 2001 study with naloxone, three of fourteen patients lost their depersonalization symptoms entirely, and seven showed marked improvement ^[1] . The findings of a 2005 naltrexone study were slightly less promising, with an average of a 30% reduction of symptoms, as measured by 3 validated dissociation scales ^[2]. The more dramatic result of naloxone versus naltrexone is suspected to be due to different endogenous opioid receptor selectivity in naloxone, which is better suited to individuals suffering from depersonalization disorder.

According to your theory, norbinaltorphimine (a highly selective κ-opioid receptor antagonist) would do best for depersonalization. There's not too much about that topic, but here is a good review that's fairly recent: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2740476/.

I am very interested in trying out norbinaltorphimine, specifically because it's direct effects on the k-opioid receptor system, but since it's not available to the public at the moment I have to settle for naltrexone. I definitely believe motivation and memory is directly linked with the kappa receptors, and that people with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety, and ADHD have an altered k-opioid receptor system compared to "regular" people. My motivation is incredibly increased while I take naloxone, and my short-term and working memory is better than ever before..I seemingly freak people out around me when I can memorize 16 digit numbers in just a few seconds (such as my credit card, for the first time I didn't have to pull it out to enter my information online). It's amazing to say the least :D

Edited by Spectre, 18 March 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[hippocampus]

Then κ-opioid receptors really are implicated in short term memory - salvia divinorum makes me forget everything in few seconds (even more than just weed).

[Mace_Windu]

Then κ-opioid receptors really are implicated in short term memory - salvia divinorum makes me forget everything in few seconds (even more than just weed).

First off: be very careful with salvia. Several years ago, I saw a guy with some severe mental illness (schizophrenia in some form I think) get press-ganged into trying a "hit" of salvia. No idea what dose, I was never interested in hallucinogenics and definitely not in trying it. He was off his gourd for well over an hour - loss of motor control, disoriented. While the high may last only 10 mins on a healthy mind, it seems like it can wreak havoc on some individuals.

I started "stacking" a week ago. I had some Alpha GPC (Puritan's Pride) and have been taking 2 X 100mg daily (morning and night). Results were very encouraging, by last weekend I was experiencing no more fogginess, better mood and my motor function has increased (one of my Pilates instructors made that comment last Wednesday). Yesterday morning, I made my coffee weaker than normal but it seemed much more potent - I felt "speedy" but it was not too bad. No heart palpitations, more like the feeling I would get before a 100m dash when I got to the line. I added ashwagandha to the stack yesterday. I felt more of a mood boost, my anxiety has been next to 'nil and I've been more sociable.

Today, I added AOR's Alpha-GPC and Nutra Sea fish oil to the stack along with AOR's ortho core multivitamin. This morning I felt like my hearing had improved and I think I was experiencing the enhanced vision - colours seemed much richer/vivid and everything had more detail to it but not in a cartoonish way.

Unfortunately, my research skills are a bit rusty and I only just read dasheenster's post re: reduced male sexual performance and ashwagandha a few minutes ago. Lion's Mane looks an intriguing alternative so I will probably order some. Especially since I've been meeting some very nice women lately!

My inclination is to keep this stack for a month and monitor my performance on dual n-back memory tests but one part of me does not want to in case I show little/no improvement :-P, residual anxiety I suppose...

I am curious about the racetams: piracetam, pramiracetam and aniracetam. Will continue to research before deciding which way to go. I am prejudiced to starting with nootropyl - call me daft but I am an ex-molecular biologist and would opt for the pharma-pure variety before buying bulk.

Surprisingly, I have not had any major anxiety since going off the leaf. No desire to start up again either so, Alles Gut!

[Cephalon]

For me the classic nootropics do a prety good job taking off the fogginess (from occasional use), such as CDP-choline, the racetams, magnesium chelate etc.
Chronic use does not work with studying imo. Though it's ok during springbreak

[mia22]

Chronic use does not work with studying imo. Though it's ok during springbreak

Yep.
I'm learning that the hard way with higher level mathematics but I arguably ingest way too much way too often...
I also vaporize oils, so I'm not combusting anything, but basically ingesting concentrated cannabinoids, meaning it's really strong(easily well over 50% thc)!
It has it's pros and it's cons, but I'm definietely not as sharp as I am when I'm on sober bouts, I can feel it affecting my memory. It does seem to clear up after sobering up for a little while. If I could mitigate those effects I'd be happy, and some of the suggestions here sound interesting and I'm going to look into, in the meantime my plan is to do so by limiting future usage at this point.
On the other hand, it stimulates creativity, etc, and seems to have a lot fo positve attributes(neurogenesis,anticancer,etc.)
Not much has changed in 2000 years i guess, "everything in moderation"

[hippocampus]

including moderation.

[Cephalon]

^ very true
To be safe one should avoid the herb several days (weeks?) before taking an exam. At least this is what I do. It is hard to question the negative short term impact cannabis use has on mental performance, in regards of logic reasoning ... and I become sooo lazy ...

[kevinseven11]

Pure CBD antagonizes both CB1 and CB2. If only not illegal.. Falcarinol does the same effect. In oral doses with the bioavailability reduced (not dissolved in fatty substance) the amount consumed would have to be ~318mg for a typical cannabis dose. Now transdermal is a completely different option. This is the last post on topic that I will post about countering the effects of weed. For more information or an update on my research, go to my blog. Neurobrainstorm.com
I will update more on that site. Thanks

[golden1]

a few of you could minimize your perceived negative effects of cannabis by simply not making them up/reading out of some D.A.R.E. handbook and actually reading some studies on the pharmacological actions, and long and short term health effects(I've read so much over the years, but I have no collection to show you). I'm mainly talking about the people who bringing up the word "addict" as if it's some automatic thing if you use drugs and those inflating the dangers to the point of propaganda. What do you think nootropics are? they're all some side-effect free drugs from heaven? There's more evidence and prior use supporting the safety of cannabis than so many of these nootropics. :P

sorry if I'm being insulting, but personally it felt insulting to read a few of those posts(of course now I might be labeled addict in denial, lmao).
..I've seen people addicted to ketamine/amphetamine/benzos/alcohol/cigarettes/caffeine and been addicted to cigarettes myself before... and trust me it's quite different than cannabis where you want to do it simply because it's a fun and enjoyable activity. Well actually, I'm not saying you can't be addicted to it as I've been there.. needing to be high to do things, etc(still not like most of the other drugs I listed), however it's quite easy to learn that you've clearly overdone it and then continue to use in moderation with out that being a problem in the slightest.

In fact I've been addicted to aniracetam and piracetam, if you want to label addiction like luminosity has to cannabis.. let me go further,

Even if you aren't currently taking this drug, this kind of thinking is a concern. There's no magic pill to counteract the negative effects of recreational drugs.
You may not be an addict, but thinking like this is characteristic of addicts. The kind help they need does not come in a pill.

First off, the term recreational drugs is rather vague, I find aniracetam recreational... modafinil...caffiene..Also you seem to be suggesting just because something is recreational at some dose it is therefore more dangerous than a drug without recreational effects, which is simply not at all how it works.
Second, what about all of the people who ask for ways to counter the brain fog of piracetam and people suggest choline, is that not a very similar thing?
You will argue that piracetam is harmless and all I have to add is that cannabis isn't the devil that some of you seem to be convinced it is.

Yes, it has negatives, however they've all gone away with time for me.. low amounts help me make more creative music, program in c++/c# + php while teaching myself, design websites, enjoy nature/beauty more, and countless other things. The only thing I'm honestly worried about is the fact it has to be smoked/vaporized unless you want to make it into food all the time, but it also has an expectorant effect on the lungs which could be expected to counteract some of this.

Edited by golden1, 02 April 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[kevinseven11]

And Im back already.. HA! Golden I completely agree with what you say. If only you came in earlier. Does vaporized cannabis still have these effects on the lungs? Ive experienced it from smoked, but not from vaped.
Also do any of yall have access to research databases? I need 2 papers. http://pubs.acs.org/....1021/jo020073w http://www.sciencedi...92422440400007X I will thank you forever if you can help me obtain these.

[Brenjin]

I'd just like to add that thc and other phytocannabinoids do not remain in your system for a week. It is the breakdown products of the phytocannabinoids that are stored in your fats. So the residual effects aren't due to it being in your system still but rather the downregulation of cannabinoid receptors.

That is all

[hippocampus]

well, THC actually stays in your body for a week, but it's 11-OH-THC and THC-COOH, not psychoactive Δ9-THC.

[kevinseven11]

I disagree with both of you. While what yall said is generally true for occasional users, Chronically fed mice accumulate psychoactive THC in the fat cells. When scientists both deprived the mice of food and administered hormones that induce fat metabolism, the rats experienced reintoxication. Perhaps smaller amounts get stored in the fat with low doses, but even a little amount needs to be countered.
Search on google scholar "marijuana reintoxication"

Any update on those two papers?

Edited by kevinseven11, 05 April 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[kevinseven11]

double post sorry.

Edited by kevinseven11, 05 April 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[hippocampus]

Then this is the possible explanation of what my friend - regular user (few joints daily) - said; that he gets intoxicated if he is hungry even if he doesn't use cannabis that day.

[gamesguru]

THC stays in your system for a long time. It's not true that all of it gets metabolized instantly when a lot of it gets trapped momentarily in fats w/o enzymes.
http://www.idmu.co.u...tcan.htm#_edn10

[WhatIsYourReality]

I wonder if Piracetam can reduce the anxiety and short term memory loss effects from THC. Just a question I have has in mind, any input?

[gamesguru]

It has been hypothesized that cannabinoids impair memory by reducing glutaminergic activity in the hippocampus via calcium channel inhibition (http://learnmem.cshl...nt/7/3/132.long). Aniracetam has been shown to metabolize in vivo to 2-pyrrolidinone, which is suspected to enhance AMPA modulation in the hippocampus via interaction with CAMKII (http://www.sciencedi...169328X0100331X). If true, cannabis users might be able to partially indemnify their memory against adverse effects through aniracetam supplementation.
Also relevant: http://jp.physoc.org...424/1/533.short.

Piracetam also interacts with calcium and the hippocampus, but the link is not as firm, and it isn't as certain to enhance LTP + healthy neurotransmission.

Edited by dasheenster, 06 April 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[WhatIsYourReality]

It has been hypothesized that cannabinoids impair memory by reducing glutaminergic activity in the hippocampus via calcium channel inhibition (http://learnmem.cshl...nt/7/3/132.long). Aniracetam has been shown to metabolize in vivo to 2-pyrrolidinone, which is suspected to enhance AMPA modulation in the hippocampus via interaction with CAMKII (http://www.sciencedi...169328X0100331X). If true, cannabis users might be able to partially indemnify their memory against adverse effects through aniracetam supplementation.
Also relevant: http://jp.physoc.org...424/1/533.short.

Piracetam also interacts with calcium and the hippocampus, but the link is not as firm, and it isn't as certain to enhance LTP + healthy neurotransmission.

Oh wow you are genius! I'm considering the use of Piracetam here soon and often have an intake of THC for medical purposes. I will also be planning a test result with aniracetam as well. Thank you very much for your input dasheenster.

[kevinseven11]

This decrease in glutaminergic activity is why cannabis is neuroprotective. Adolescents who drink and smoke maintain more brain mass than adolescents who only drink. This effect im afraid isn't going to cure everything, though it shows it may help. Ive tried cannabis and piracetam a year ago or so, and I felt clearer minded but also more euphoric at the same time. I did have a month of abstinence which should be accounted for though.

Edited by kevinseven11, 06 April 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[JChief]

I wonder if Piracetam can reduce the anxiety and short term memory loss effects from THC. Just a question I have has in mind, any input?

Piracetam absolutely reduces the negative anxiety experienced with it. It allows me to also remain fairly articulate even if very stoned. It's not the typical experience. Piracetam and cannabis combine very well for me (more euphoric too).

Edited by JChief, 06 April 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[gamesguru]

New cannabinoid receptors: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus. Also, see: http://www.guidetoph...rd?familyId=114.

Also, to correct what kevinseven11 earlier, CBD is NOT proven to antagonize CB1 or CB2. It's an indirect antagonist and we don't understand it exactly: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17712814. This study, which I think you had in mind (http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2189767/), isn't very reliable. THCV and Δ8-THC are more conclusively shown to directly antagonize CB1 receptors (http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2189766/).


Piracetam is frequently reported to enhance psychadelics, but imo that's a foolish reason to stack it with cannabis. I've seen others claim it helps with speaking, which makes sense because piracetam is well-known to enhance verbal fluency, whereas cannabis is well-known to suppress verbal fluency. I don't think piracetam will fix many of the errors in the memory process caused by cannabis, and so it won't help much with the brain fog. I've known some people who claim piracetam is anxiogenic, but I don't know of any such cases in conjunction with cannabis use.

[Raptor87]

I like cannabis because it gives me the ability to feel, I haven´t smoked for 6 years and have only on occasional times. But I don´t know if it is normal not to feel anything except for when I smoke. It´s been like this since the age of 12.

[gamesguru]

That's not normal if you're describing it accurately. It could be early Parkinsons, malnutrition, chronic fatigue, etc.

[Raptor87]

That's not normal if you're describing it accurately. It could be early Parkinsons, malnutrition, chronic fatigue, etc.

Are you sure? I eat very healty (paleo). I suffer from hypersomnia tough. But I thought that this was somewhat normal!?

[gamesguru]

Hypersomnia may or may not be rooted in a serious disease. You could have some genetic defects you're not aware of? It's not normal to lack emotion/empathy all through the day. It's implicated in severe depression. It's also symptomatic of former meth addicts, who have lost a large portion of their dopaminergic neurons. If cannabis restores your emotions, it could be a result of dopamine enhancement, or of some serotonin receptor interactions.

[Raptor87]

Well I can relate if people suffer or need help. The only feeling I do have is anxiety from a scale 1-10. Even tough people avoid me because they think I am negative, pessimistic and harsh. I feel sorry for the people around me tough, I have been tough on them!

Iv´e done SSRI´s but they didn´t help, actually they made things worse. They had a more sedative effect on me. But beneath the surface I was worse, I just didn´t act it out.

I am running on the thought that I suffer from ADD, low dopamine or something else. I am going to try deprenyl in the nearby future, I just need to get some cash and a great place to order it from.