22 replies to this topic

[Brafarality]

Yes, I have largely moved past tirades on the matter, but I cannot get over that once in a while, when I decide to show 2 pics side by side, around 9 of 10 people under 25 choose the unrecognized screamo band as more 'creative' than a pinnacle creative genius of western civilization.

Fashion marketing and branding have a huge effect on perception these days. Case in point, I showed the 2 pics below side by side and asked a few of my GF's son's friends which group they thought was the more creative of the two. They were, I guess, between 15-17. I didn't do it in a taunting or mocking way. Was just curious. Here are the pics. One is of Willem de Koonig and lover, and the other is of a run of the mill screamo band. From the previous paragraph and post title, it is obvious which picture they selected. How shallow and pathetic are we becoming?

It seems like a harmless cultural anomaly and that I am repetitive and carping, but this sort of flawed perception can actually hurt society, particularly when a more 'creative looking' person is chosen for a task that would have been better suited to someone who was actually more genuinely original as opposed to someone who bought their templated uniform at Hot Topic. Is this a valid topic of discussion?

Edited by Brafarality, 06 March 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Brafarality]

One more comparison with same results. On the right is Vincent Van Gogh. To the left is just someone with an emo haircut, clothing and snakebite piercings.

Edited by Brafarality, 06 March 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[churchill]

What is your evidence that this is a new phenomenom?

[Brafarality]

What is your evidence that this is a new phenomenom?

Good point. This has probably been going on for a long time. Just thought of it: go back a century, and the stereotype of the painter in the beret with palette in hand indicated a good artist. Also, the absent-minded professor might have somehow seemed more intelligent and likely to make a breakthrough than the perfectly adjusted scientist who partied every weekend. Ciao!

[Droplet]

This may be a bit of a dumb thing to say but I guess some of these creative people look unique because it draws more attention to them and becomes their gimmick. Geniuses/creative people from many years ago may have been unable to express themselves like today so kept to more "ordinary" appearance to appease a more repressed society.

Must admit that if we're going on stereotyping, I would pick the more wild person out as the creative person...not that I am any good at stuff like this cos I have facial recognition issues and possibly wouldn't recognise the more "normal" looking person. My brain would tell me they are generic and forget the look but retain any pointless trivia on said person I may have (if any). Odd looking people CAN stick in my memory better unless they change something about their appearance.

[churchill]

What is your evidence that this is a new phenomenom?

Good point. This has probably been going on for a long time. Just thought of it: go back a century, and the stereotype of the painter in the beret with palette in hand indicated a good artist. Also, the absent-minded professor might have somehow seemed more intelligent and likely to make a breakthrough than the perfectly adjusted scientist who partied every weekend. Ciao!

Yes I think it is more that someone identifies more with the people are thought to be more creative. Similar to how attractive people are given many positive personality traits vs unattractive people purely by a picture and nothing else.

[churchill]

This may be a bit of a dumb thing to say but I guess some of these creative people look unique because it draws more attention to them and becomes their gimmick. Geniuses/creative people from many years ago may have been unable to express themselves like today so kept to more "ordinary" appearance to appease a more repressed society.

Must admit that if we're going on stereotyping, I would pick the more wild person out as the creative person...not that I am any good at stuff like this cos I have facial recognition issues and possibly wouldn't recognise the more "normal" looking person. My brain would tell me they are generic and forget the look but retain any pointless trivia on said person I may have (if any). Odd looking people CAN stick in my memory better unless they change something about their appearance.

I think that makes a lot of sense. To me alo a creative person is one who looks unconventional, who knows maybe in 20 years everyone will have outlandish haircuts, tattoos and piercings and the cool a creative ones will be seen as the ones who have none of these (probably wishful thinking on my part:))

[Droplet]

I think that makes a lot of sense. To me alo a creative person is one who looks unconventional, who knows maybe in 20 years everyone will have outlandish haircuts, tattoos and piercings and the cool a creative ones will be seen as the ones who have none of these (probably wishful thinking on my part:))

Tattoos and piercings themselves are more mainstream. Heck a few decades ago you could apply for disability benefits here in UK for having a tattoo, as it was seen as such a barrier to work. As for really banal (forgive my term) looking people being stereotyped as the creative ones, I don't know about that in the future but it would be interesting.

[churchill]

I think that makes a lot of sense. To me alo a creative person is one who looks unconventional, who knows maybe in 20 years everyone will have outlandish haircuts, tattoos and piercings and the cool a creative ones will be seen as the ones who have none of these (probably wishful thinking on my part:))

Tattoos and piercings themselves are more mainstream. Heck a few decades ago you could apply for disability benefits here in UK for having a tattoo, as it was seen as such a barrier to work. As for really banal (forgive my term) looking people being stereotyped as the creative ones, I don't know about that in the future but it would be interesting.

How exactly does having a tattoo make you disabled??

[Brafarality]

I think that makes a lot of sense. To me alo a creative person is one who looks unconventional

That is the crux of my vexation. The most creative minds of all time, the pinnacle creative geniuses, most often dont look creative at all in the way they dress or their overall appearance. In fact, Matisse was one of the most original painters of the 20th century but supposedly dressed like a government official according to acquaintances.

In the second pair of photos:
The wild, creative looking person is someone who bought their outfit at Hot Topic.
The boring, conventional looking person is Vincent Van Gogh.

Edited by Brafarality, 07 March 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[churchill]

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

[Brafarality]

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Well put. Is it possible to change this? Who knows.
It affects not just the supposed appearance of creativity, but so many other aspects, and Im thinking that it is tough to be immune to all of them: I am fully taken in by 'green' or healthy looking packaging as being indicative of the level of wholesomeness of a packaged food item. Part of me knows that there is little to this. Yes, if a company takes the time to design a 'green' looking package, then there is a possibility that they are also putting effort into making healthier foods, but this is a suspect correlation. Only a good hard reading of ingredients and certifications reveals the truth.

[Droplet]

[How exactly does having a tattoo make you disabled??

I don't know, perhaps that it's indellible? I think that perhaps they were just considered so unacceptable at the time but were also irreversible. I know certain places nowadays will make you cover them up and wear sleeves if you have them down your arms. Once worked for a supermarket like that.

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Very true but stereotypes are just that and nothing more. Sometimes they are true and sometimes they're not. We all develop preconceptions about certain groups of people and I doubt we could ever stop making judgments about people completely. I will admit myself to having crossed the road/avoided certain places because I saw a "dodgy" looking group of people there. Could have been just lovely young people chilling but my preconceptions/past experiences and the fact that I was a lone woman made me not wish to take the chance.

Edited by Droplet, 07 March 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[churchill]

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Well put. Is it possible to change this? Who knows.
It affects not just the supposed appearance of creativity, but so many other aspects, and Im thinking that it is tough to be immune to all of them: I am fully taken in by 'green' or healthy looking packaging as being indicative of the level of wholesomeness of a packaged food item. Part of me knows that there is little to this. Yes, if a company takes the time to design a 'green' looking package, then there is a possibility that they are also putting effort into making healthier foods, but this is a suspect correlation. Only a good hard reading of ingredients and certifications reveals the truth.

Not sure there is much you can do about this one it is very much part of human nature. Even people who know about critical thinking/skepticsm and actively use it, still suffer from cognitive bias. At some point in the future it may be possible to engineer the brain to be more rational, but it may have unintended consequences.

It is amazing how a simple name change from vitmamin to chemical to mineral changes our perception even though they are infact the same. Or how someone will accept that a molecule is better if comes from a fruit vs if it was created in a lab even though they may be exactly the same.

Judging a book by its cover is a useful skill to have as it does save you time, if you spent the time to study everything in detail then you would not be able to function, so these short cuts take place in the brain. The trick comes to recognising when these short cuts are actually leading you astray.

[churchill]

[How exactly does having a tattoo make you disabled??

I don't know, perhaps that it's indellible? I think that perhaps they were just considered so unacceptable at the time but were also irreversible. I know certain places nowadays will make you cover them up and wear sleeves if you have them down your arms. Once worked for a supermarket like that.

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Very true but stereotypes are just that and nothing more. Sometimes they are true and sometimes they're not. We all develop preconceptions about certain groups of people and I doubt we could ever stop making judgments about people completely. I will admit myself to having crossed the road/avoided certain places because I saw a "dodgy" looking group of people there. Could have been just lovely young people chilling but my preconceptions/past experiences and the fact that I was a lone woman made me not wish to take the chance.

Well I can see how having a tattoo may harm your job prospects, but I just can't see how it could be classed as a disability. Whether you like it or not having a tattoo portrays a certain image which is directly at odds with certain proffession, and as this discussion makes clear people will judge you on that and in turn judge the company on it.

[Brafarality]

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Well put. Is it possible to change this? Who knows.
It affects not just the supposed appearance of creativity, but so many other aspects, and Im thinking that it is tough to be immune to all of them: I am fully taken in by 'green' or healthy looking packaging as being indicative of the level of wholesomeness of a packaged food item. Part of me knows that there is little to this. Yes, if a company takes the time to design a 'green' looking package, then there is a possibility that they are also putting effort into making healthier foods, but this is a suspect correlation. Only a good hard reading of ingredients and certifications reveals the truth.

Not sure there is much you can do about this one it is very much part of human nature. Even people who know about critical thinking/skepticsm and actively use it, still suffer from cognitive bias. At some point in the future it may be possible to engineer the brain to be more rational, but it may have unintended consequences.

It is amazing how a simple name change from vitmamin to chemical to mineral changes our perception even though they are infact the same. Or how someone will accept that a molecule is better if comes from a fruit vs if it was created in a lab even though they may be exactly the same.

Judging a book by its cover is a useful skill to have as it does save you time, if you spent the time to study everything in detail then you would not be able to function, so these short cuts take place in the brain. The trick comes to recognising when these short cuts are actually leading you astray.

Again, well put!
Even though I think are some negative effects from stereotyping or bias, I would prefer the downside to having brains artificially engineered. Something about that is disturbing, although I think it is beyond certain that once we have developed enough to engineer the brain in a positive useful way, it will start happening en masse, and it will be done on willing participants.
And, it must be grudgingly admitted that there is some usefulness to judging a book by its cover, though it definitely leads one astray in extreme instances, such as judging the creativity of peak artists and writers, though the usefulness is reasserted because it is not common that one must appraise the originality of a Picasso or Monet. It is not a daily occurence. Interesting points.

[Droplet]

Well I can see how having a tattoo may harm your job prospects, but I just can't see how it could be classed as a disability.

Don't get it either.

[churchill]

Unfortunately perception is rarely reality, people are judging on appearance when really this only gives a very loose indication of what lies beneath.

Well put. Is it possible to change this? Who knows.
It affects not just the supposed appearance of creativity, but so many other aspects, and Im thinking that it is tough to be immune to all of them: I am fully taken in by 'green' or healthy looking packaging as being indicative of the level of wholesomeness of a packaged food item. Part of me knows that there is little to this. Yes, if a company takes the time to design a 'green' looking package, then there is a possibility that they are also putting effort into making healthier foods, but this is a suspect correlation. Only a good hard reading of ingredients and certifications reveals the truth.

Not sure there is much you can do about this one it is very much part of human nature. Even people who know about critical thinking/skepticsm and actively use it, still suffer from cognitive bias. At some point in the future it may be possible to engineer the brain to be more rational, but it may have unintended consequences.

It is amazing how a simple name change from vitmamin to chemical to mineral changes our perception even though they are infact the same. Or how someone will accept that a molecule is better if comes from a fruit vs if it was created in a lab even though they may be exactly the same.

Judging a book by its cover is a useful skill to have as it does save you time, if you spent the time to study everything in detail then you would not be able to function, so these short cuts take place in the brain. The trick comes to recognising when these short cuts are actually leading you astray.

Again, well put!
Even though I think are some negative effects from stereotyping or bias, I would prefer the downside to having brains artificially engineered. Something about that is disturbing, although I think it is beyond certain that once we have developed enough to engineer the brain in a positive useful way, it will start happening en masse, and it will be done on willing participants.
And, it must be grudgingly admitted that there is some usefulness to judging a book by its cover, though it definitely leads one astray in extreme instances, such as judging the creativity of peak artists and writers, though the usefulness is reasserted because it is not common that one must appraise the originality of a Picasso or Monet. It is not a daily occurence. Interesting points.

I am looking forward to having a better engineered brain also! Shame it will probably take ages to come along.

[The Immortalist]

Wouldn't it be too easy to assume that a creative person also has a creative wardrobe?

[Elus]

It seems to me your question carries a bias. Let's assume that the people you ask have no idea who the people in your photos are.

Then you ask them who is more creative. They will answer based on the only differing characteristic they can spot, and based on the available information you've given them, they will answer according to aesthetic appeal. I don't really see anything surprising or remarkable here.

Now, lets say you played music that each individual from your photos produced, and then asked your question. If you still got the same answer, I'd be shocked.

Until then, all you've proven is that people will make a judgement about creativity based on the limited amount of information they're given, which is in this case just an outfit. If people are given more information that can allow them to appreciate creativity, I'd say they'd make a different choice.

Edited by Elus, 11 March 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[Brafarality]

Wouldn't it be too easy to assume that a creative person also has a creative wardrobe?

Yes! Totally agree. That's the problem: The Hot Topic uniforms on the left are not creative at all: It's templated hair and wardrobe fashion composed of mass-produced articles of clothing from multi-billion dollar companies as well as templated hair cuts. IMHO, there is really no conclusion whatsoever that can be drawn from either set of outfits since neither set is in any way original.

Edited by Brafarality, 12 March 2012 - 04:26 AM.

[Brafarality]

It seems to me your question carries a bias. Let's assume that the people you ask have no idea who the people in your photos are.

Then you ask them who is more creative. They will answer based on the only differing characteristic they can spot, and based on the available information you've given them, they will answer according to aesthetic appeal. I don't really see anything surprising or remarkable here.

Now, lets say you played music that each individual from your photos produced, and then asked your question. If you still got the same answer, I'd be shocked.

Until then, all you've proven is that people will make a judgement about creativity based on the limited amount of information they're given, which is in this case just an outfit. If people are given more information that can allow them to appreciate creativity, I'd say they'd make a different choice.

But, that is the big problem that has resulted from the masterful corporate marketing of 'indie', 'emo', 'goth' etc as these 'alternative' styles which are then sold as mass produced articles of clothing and accessories by multi-billion dollar companies.
That is, both sets of outfits are equally unoriginal and uncreative.
The Hot Topic uniforms on the left are mass produced by the 100,000s. Nothing original about them.
So, based upon the limited information available, I would almost think that no conclusion whatsoever can be drawn about who is more creative.
Thanks for replying!

Edited by Brafarality, 12 March 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Brafarality]

Had to change my profile pic to a real one. And, a friend just took one where I had a bad ass pose, so voila. Fine weekend to all!

Edited by Brafarality, 03 June 2012 - 06:26 PM.