94 replies to this topic

[medievil]

Marijuana:
Marijuana is VERY useful as a nootropic. The only problem is I wouldn't use it while trying to learn things. It does enhance creativity and problem solving when using things you already know!
Also Marijuana Inhibits Amloid beta protein production (Key component in Alzheimers). These a useless protein build ups in the brain that everyone has, but others much more.

Arachidonic Acid:
Since DHA is on the supplement list, why isnt Arachidonic acid on the supplement list? AA is in the brain more than DHA is. Guess what, THC increases AA in the brain! In Vitro this causes toxic effects (why some studies say thc is bad for brain) but vivo studies have only shown increases in brain tissues (besides from inhaled carcinogens which lower cerebral circulation and thus decreased neurogenesis).
You can take AA in supplement form, but it will increase you muscle peformance before your brain. Cannabis is the only compound I know that will only raise your brain levels of AA.
Adding AA to the URIDINE Stack should improve the outcomes, maybe thats why Uridine worked very well for me, the occasional vaping session .
Study on AA helping memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15811397
Also a study showing AA more important than other Omega 6 fatty acids (those from olive oil) http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19752581

PS:
Also who ever said Curcumin acts directly on CB1 receptors is wrong. Its an indirect effect that causes the NGF increase. http://onlinelibrary...10.00745.x/full

If weed is a nootropic then im santaclaus.

I do beleive in "mood enhancers" as additives to nootropics tough but weed never made me that smart, amp does atleast it makes me think im smart wich is good enough haha

[gizmobrain]

<p>Could you please not use DMAA as your dopamine component? See below.http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2257521Using boring old Tyrosine or even a plain old energy drink you'll probably get gpod results.You guys always want to push your luck. Geez, this stack works great with boring stuff. The too intense experiences I've had with it were not pleasant.

Thanks for pointing this out! Wasn't sure about the DMAA anyways - didn't order it yet.

[medievil]

Cilltep stack
Craze

And i want to try adding this sup:
http://www.superiorn...tegory_Code=COG

This should get quite close to the ultimate stack...

Craze definatly syncs with the cilltep stack.

[medievil]

That brain octane formula looks extremely interesting, especially as i wanted to take the edge of craze because it contains l theanine.

[Patanjali]

Does anyone here use the CILTEP stack alongside noopept?

Do they synergise, simply not interfere and do their own thing or does it feel like brain overload?

I might test CILTEP with Pramiracetam and Oxiracetam within the next few weeks. This could be a reference experience for you. Although you might find much better information in that regard by looking at the initial CILTEP thread. URL can be found in OPs initial post.

[Patanjali]

When I started Piracetam last month, I really liked the effects (which I noticed right after the first day). Lately though, the PIR just knocks me out and I'm unable to do anything, since I HAVE to sleep.

I had a similar experience with piracetam (the tiredness came on more and more). I simply take a lot less now and get good results: 800mg morning and 800mg early afternoon. I started out at 5g per day. I tapered down to where i am now over a year or so. Works as good as it ever has. Also, I haven't needed choline since after about 6 months of taking the piracetam. I do take ALCAR with it, though. I never liked the effects of the choline and seem to be fine without it.

Very interesting... do you have experience with other Racetams like Pramiracetam or Oxiracetam?

[Patanjali]

Sorry if this is an obvious question, I'm pretty new to all this, but I haven't heard much mention of Alpha GPC as a possible choline source and I'm wondering if CDP is preferable. Currently I'm taking 1g every day along with 4g piracetam, any thoughts on this dosage?

I'm new to this myself, but your dose seems higher than what most people recommend, which seems to be 3x800mg/day - 3x1200mg/day. When I tried Piracetam initially I started with 2x1200mg/day and experienced no further benefits from higher dosages. And lately the 2x1200mg/day isn't working anymore for me (makes me supertired, see this thread). So I might try to lower the dosage further. This site gives dosage-recommendations for the most common nootropics: http://www.whatareno...nootropic-list/
Might be a good starting point.

[Patanjali]

Cilltep stack
Craze

And i want to try adding this sup:
http://www.superiorn...tegory_Code=COG

This should get quite close to the ultimate stack...

Craze definatly syncs with the cilltep stack.

Nice, thx for posting that link. Seems to get pretty close to the "ultimate stack" indeed. I first have to test the various substances individualy though, to see if some might be dispensible. But with that product my Uridine-Supplement problem would be solved... can you recommend a good Uridine-Supplement?

[GettingThere]

Superior nutraceuticals also carries Uridine in 25g, 100g and 250g.

http://www.superiorn...tegory_Code=COG

I was considering ordering the brain octane formulas as well, but I opted not to because I wanted to ability to adjust the dosages of individual components. Any thoughts on the benefits of the pre-mixed formula vs. taking each individual components separately?

[Cephalon]

Medievil, the Brain Octane formula sounds cool! Cutting edge supps in a well balanced formula. The Acetyl Tyrosine is a bit low (found NALT to be less potent for me then regular l-tyrosine for whatever reason, but just decided to give it another go soon). Resveratrol is really low, but I'm sure you know that and don't care too much about it anyways, right? It's cool they put Uridine in it! It has 3 choline sources - I don't see the point there, but who knows, I guess try it and report back

Patanjali, I'm sorry that I totaly missed your post addressed to me on the previous page!
Yeah Modafinil is sooo off the list now. Made the big big mistake to take it right before an exam - I was also taking it 2 days in a row again, since I wanted some rotation from the other sitms. Big mistake. Really strange that after a break Modafinil works perfectly fine and on the second or third dose it starts to retards me ...
There was a study, that actually people with low IQ benefited more from modafinil then the upper IQers. Always thought I belonged to the former group Modafinil saved me an IQ test I guess
How are you doing with the CILTEP stack? Are you still on it? I just reorderd the compounds and I hope I'll be able to give it a try soon. As long as the stupid package won't be sized by German customs again ... paid like 15 bucks for a two month supply, honestly not willing to pay the EU prices, ranging from 30-60€ a month supply ...

[Cephalon]

Marijuana:
Marijuana is VERY useful as a nootropic. The only problem is I wouldn't use it while trying to learn things. It does enhance creativity and problem solving when using things you already know!
Also Marijuana Inhibits Amloid beta protein production (Key component in Alzheimers). These a useless protein build ups in the brain that everyone has, but others much more.

Arachidonic Acid:
Since DHA is on the supplement list, why isnt Arachidonic acid on the supplement list? AA is in the brain more than DHA is. Guess what, THC increases AA in the brain! In Vitro this causes toxic effects (why some studies say thc is bad for brain) but vivo studies have only shown increases in brain tissues (besides from inhaled carcinogens which lower cerebral circulation and thus decreased neurogenesis).
You can take AA in supplement form, but it will increase you muscle peformance before your brain. Cannabis is the only compound I know that will only raise your brain levels of AA.
Adding AA to the URIDINE Stack should improve the outcomes, maybe thats why Uridine worked very well for me, the occasional vaping session .
Study on AA helping memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15811397
Also a study showing AA more important than other Omega 6 fatty acids (those from olive oil) http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19752581

PS:
Also who ever said Curcumin acts directly on CB1 receptors is wrong. Its an indirect effect that causes the NGF increase. http://onlinelibrary...10.00745.x/full

If weed is a nootropic then im santaclaus.

I do beleive in "mood enhancers" as additives to nootropics tough but weed never made me that smart, amp does atleast it makes me think im smart wich is good enough haha

LOL No I don't think Cannabis has such an immediate effect, so it could really be called a Nootropic. Maybe I have chosen a bad term. I personaly have to quit using it at least a month prior to exams as it is bad for my little motivation issue, and I feel a little stupid. But there are a lot studies published, and on the way showing Cannabis does favorable things to the brain longterm. I'm sure (as you mentioned with curcumin) there will be other CB lingans that will also lead to this favorable changes. For me personally Cannabis is not an long term option since it makes me too comfortable with my current situation that I won't make much progress when on it long term. But I enjoy it here and there and I like the idea, that I'm actually doing something for my brain when getting baked
Since using a vaporizer (did not smoke weed in a month or so - but if I do, then via a vap) I don't noticed any other issues with Cannabis use other then the demotivating effects.

There is was an interesting show once at super human radio on the topic. I think it was an italian scientist who was looking into MJ's ability to excert neurotoxins out of cells. Endocannabinoids are supposed to do the same. Can't find the episode though.
http://www.superhumanradio.com

Did anyone try this new RC "cannabinoids" which are not actually cannabinoids, but block the enzyme that breaks down endocannabinoids, leading the endocannabinoids to reach a level, where they do not cause real euphoria, but have at least antidepressant and pro wellbeing effects?

Nonetheless I have to agree with Medievil in, that Cannabis won't make the race against Amphetamine, at least in immediate effects and at least not for me.

(but Cannabis should stay a matter of debate, and shouldn't be stigmatized either, since there are studies showing it has it's uses in neuropharmacology - and be it just as parent compounds for a class of pharms helping people who do not respond well to first choice medications)

And now on topic:

Waiting for my stuff to arrive and then I will put the "Ultimate Stack" as described in previous posts in real life. Also ordered a flavoring system for powdered supplements (Berry Flavor) to make the stack more conveniant to use.
There will actually one tub with the "Ultimate Nootropic Stack" (CILTEP, Uridine, Racetams)
And one tub with an "Ultimate Health Stack". There will be some compounds occuring in both stacks, since I find them helpful as everyday health and cognition supplements as Creatine which has been mentioned before.
I also decided to add NAC to either just the "Ultimate Health Stack" or both, since (beside the concerns about lung damage) I find n acetyl cysteine to be both a good all purpose antioxidant and a nootropic. (It significantly raises my mood and this is placebo controlled - have been using this stuff since childhood and always noticed an increase in wellbeing. It was just later when I found out NAC actually has some evidence behind it as a natural antidepressant remedy. I will also throw in some resveratrol and pterostilbene in the health stack as I have so much left of this stuff. I will report back as soon as both stacks are in action!

[Cephalon]

Superior nutraceuticals also carries Uridine in 25g, 100g and 250g.

http://www.superiorn...tegory_Code=COG

I was considering ordering the brain octane formulas as well, but I opted not to because I wanted to ability to adjust the dosages of individual components. Any thoughts on the benefits of the pre-mixed formula vs. taking each individual components separately?

GettingThere, you opted right Individual dosing is always best. There is some conveniance in premixes, but downsides as well. If you are well experianced and you know how you react to each supp in the mix, and the mix actually has the ratios you desire, then go for it. But in my opinions such a mix does not exsist. I'm just planing to create my own mix at the moment, to avoid capping. But I will always keep some seperate powders, just to have something as a single active when needed. By the way, this does not only count for nootropics, but for all supplements: for those who use a multivitamin, you should check the supplement forum for suggestions, building your own stack, tailored for your nutritional needs. On the other hand, it's rather anoying having 1000 of bottles in the cabinet worth x bucks and having to swallow numberous caps a day ...

Edited by Cephalon, 21 July 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Patanjali]

Yeah Modafinil is sooo off the list now. Made the big big mistake to take it right before an exam - I was also taking it 2 days in a row again, since I wanted some rotation from the other sitms. Big mistake. Really strange that after a break Modafinil works perfectly fine and on the second or third dose it starts to retards me ...

Exactly the same here... also taken it 3-4 days in a row before an exam. Big mistake.

There was a study, that actually people with low IQ benefited more from modafinil then the upper IQers. Always thought I belonged to the former group Modafinil saved me an IQ test I guess

I don't consider myself as someone with a high IQ. I think the problem with me is that is messes with my REM sleep. So even though I wake up after 6h in my bed and feel OK, I didn't "really" sleep and my brain didn't really "regenerate".

How are you doing with the CILTEP stack? Are you still on it? I just reorderd the compounds and I hope I'll be able to give it a try soon.

Right now I'm using the CILTEP stack 2-4 times a week as follows:

With Breakfast:
Forskolin 10mg
Artichoke 350mg
Ritalin 10-20mg (optional)
Theanine 100-200mg (optional)

With Lunch:
Forskolin 10mg
Artichoke 350mg
Ritalin 10-20mg (optional)
Theanine 100-200mg (optional)


The heavy Ritalin (2-4 days/week) use is due to my enormus current workload. I'll substitute it with either Tyrosine or 1/4 - 1/2 Nicotine (Patches) after August. Or maybe I'll rotate Nicotine and Tyrosine (1000mg - 2000mg). Further testing is required but not possible right now for obvious reasons.

Of course I tested the CILTEP without the Ritalin & Theanine and like I said before, I'm really impressed by it's effects, since the components are perfectly legal. Besides that, it really works well with the Ritalin. I hope it does the same with Nicotine / Tyrosine.

On the Non-CILTEP days I'm currently experimenting with my newly arrived Pramiracetam, where I'm still trying to find the right dosage for me. 300mg seems to much.

With Breakfast:
Pramiracetam 50-250mg (further testing required to find optimal dosage)
Caffeine 100mg

With Lunch:
Pramiracetam 50-250mg (further testing required to find optimal dosage)
Caffeine 100mg (optional)

After discovering the right dose of Pramiracetam, I'll start the same process with Oxiracetam and than rotate the two every week. After that, I might start looking into the Uridine stack.

Edited by Patanjali, 21 July 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[Cephalon]

Yes check out the Uridine! I tried it today, and while it is very subtile it definately works. The most amazing thing about Uridine supplementation is that I did not have any sideeffects and I didn't feel drugged at all. My mood is brightend and my vision improved. But I usually get the improved vision from new supplements and the effects sooner or later wear off. But as long as the clearity stays, I will not remove Uridine from the list.
It is really great you have success with CILTEP! I hope my order makes it to me this time, so badly Otherwise I will order it in the EU ... but that would suck a bit.
Hopefully you'll be able to kick the Mph soon, in case you are aiming on this. Try the Uridine, it must be a great addition from what CILTEP sounds like.
Maybe the Uridine can replace the Dopamine releaser as it increases Dopamine as well?
Also please let us know how you are getting along with the nicotine patch and your progress with Pramiracetam. I'm sure you'll like Oxiracetam. I was pretty impressed, but somehow I do not get the heavy response to it I used to have.

[Cephalon]

From next week on I will implement this as part of my cognition stack together with flax seed or fish oil and b9 and b12:



(It will be a powder to stir in water, flavored with a covering agent from myprotein.com)


As soon as my latest Vitacost order shows up, which will most likely be in August, I will also take this as pills:



Are those doses ok?

12.5 mg Forskohlin should be enough, right? You think 300mg Artichoke Extract (5% Cynarin) will be sufficient, too?
Then it would be a 2-4 month supply which would be sweet!

Still looking for a dopamine supp, but actually I'll try it without first, since I think adding a dopamine supp on a daily basis, just to get the stack "complete" if it works without is a bit stupid. Maybe the CDP-Choline and Uridine offer enough Dopamine spike. Maybe I will add 50mg Caffeine.

So if Caffeine works, the modified FDA label could look like this:




Shoooot, I hope the order won't be seized, since I just found out, that Artichoke extract can be bought in every health store over here for 4-5€ and forskolin comes from UK for around 15€.Getting into trubble with the dear customs authorities for a saving of like 10€ is soo stupid Damn. Before I thought it would cost me 60€ or so, since I saw those offers online ...

Edited by Cephalon, 22 July 2012 - 01:06 AM.

[GettingThere]

I've been having good results taking l-theanine with the CILTEP stack and also with Noopept, both of which have stimulating effects on me which the theanine successfully "levels out". I enjoy how the stimulation dissipates all brain fog and tiredness and gives a slight boost in motivation, but I'm still trying to pinpoint the best dose of the CILTEP stack components and theanine counteracts the excess energy that I get sometimes, without making me drowsy in any way.

[Patanjali]

I've been having good results taking l-theanine with the CILTEP stack and also with Noopept, both of which have stimulating effects on me which the theanine successfully "levels out". I enjoy how the stimulation dissipates all brain fog and tiredness and gives a slight boost in motivation, but I'm still trying to pinpoint the best dose of the CILTEP stack components and theanine counteracts the excess energy that I get sometimes, without making me drowsy in any way.

I'm a big fan of theanine too. I use it in the evening though, mainly before I medidate. How long have you been using it? And are you doing so on a daily basis? Did you experience any tolerance effects?

Namaste
Patanjali

[Cephalon]

I've been having good results taking l-theanine with the CILTEP stack and also with Noopept, both of which have stimulating effects on me which the theanine successfully "levels out". I enjoy how the stimulation dissipates all brain fog and tiredness and gives a slight boost in motivation, but I'm still trying to pinpoint the best dose of the CILTEP stack components and theanine counteracts the excess energy that I get sometimes, without making me drowsy in any way.

I'm a big fan of theanine too. I use it in the evening though, mainly before I medidate. How long have you been using it? And are you doing so on a daily basis? Did you experience any tolerance effects?

Namaste
Patanjali

I'm not a great fan, though I don't dislike l-theanine either. Don't get too much of it, but don't get the point about GABAerics anyway. Neither Diazepam (5-20mg) nor Xanax (1-3mg) had any effect on me other then amnesia after combining them with ethanol. But I'm sure there is a great synergy with meditation, since l-theanine and meditation have similar effects on brain waves. Was it alpha waves? Should try meditation, though I'm so impatient...

Edited by Cephalon, 23 July 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Patanjali]

I'm not a great fan, though I don't dislike l-theanine either. Don't get too much of it, but don't get the point about GABAerics anyway. Neither Diazepam (5-20mg) nor Xanax (1-3mg) had any effect on me other then amnesia after combining them with ethanol. But I'm sure there is a great synergy with meditation, since l-theanine and meditation have similar effects on brain waves. Was it alpha waves? Should try meditation, though I'm so impatient...

I didn't know about the alpha-waves thing and theanine, when I purchased for the first time. Originally I bought it as part of a focus-stack, that I read about on the web. After taking it a few times by itself I noticed a feeling I recognized as something I knew from short Zen retreats I have been at, so I figured

Namaste
Patanjali

[panhedonic]

I'm really interested in this thread, but it got too long.... anybody care to make a summary post, or a child-thread with the conclusions?

BTW: I tried today one capsule of forksolin, and one of artichoke. I had an espresso and went to the gym (I know it's not the basic idea, but I had to go anyways) I didn't notice any changes. I'll try again tomorrow before having to concentrate in a difficult intellectual task.

[Patanjali]

BTW: I tried today one capsule of forksolin, and one of artichoke. I had an espresso and went to the gym (I know it's not the basic idea, but I had to go anyways) I didn't notice any changes. I'll try again tomorrow before having to concentrate in a difficult intellectual task.

You won't notice anything if you're busting your ass in the gym. Take it in the morning with breakfast before you engage in some intellectually challengeing task (like reading this thread and summerize its results in a child thread) and add a dopamine enhancer like Tyrosin. Nicotine patches should work too, but I did not test that yet. My personal experience is that it synergizes well with low dosages of MPH (10mg). It also seems to work good with Sulbutiamine and Alpha-GPC, but further testing is required here...

[panhedonic]

Patanjali, are you suggesting that I take the CILTEP stack in order to understand the CILTEP stack thread? My brain is going to explode...

[Patanjali]

Patanjali, are you suggesting that I take the CILTEP stack in order to understand the CILTEP stack thread? My brain is going to explode...

Sounds crazy, I know... but think about it. This could totally work

[panhedonic]

Bump *** Any more experiences, additions to this incredibly promising stack? I'd post mine but I take so many different supps, that it's impossible for me to pinpoint what does what. I am resigned to a general feeling of well-being and improved energy/abilities, without being sure why. (although I credit 5mg/day SL Selegiline a lot, there's about 20 others I take)

[Augmentation]

...
Apart from that ill elaborate more later on my mentioning of treshold doses of psychedelics; wich can be cognitively enhancing in non psychedelic doses.

Do you have time to elaborate on the threshold doses? very interested. Great thread.

[alecnevsky]

Cephalon, thank you for the comprehensive categorization! Any new developments? How's this working for you?

[medievil]

My view on the ultimate stack:

1. The foundation supplements witch generally fully support health; id combine 2 max.
- Resveratrol
- Quercetin
- Ginseng
- Astragalus
- Gotu kola
- Curcumin
- Milk thistle
etc.

2. One or more of the racetams; i consider those the foundation supplements for cognitive enhancement; they act on glutamate and acetylcholine wich are highly implicated in cognition.
- Piracetam
- Aniracetam
- Oxiracetam
- Pramiracetam
- nefiracetam
- noopept

3. The racetam support supplements wich aid their effectiveness
- Fish oil
- L glutamic acid / glutamine / MSG
- Alcar or alternative choline sources

4. The CILTEP stack.
- A PDE inhibitor (Something thats also found in group one is recommened like quercetin or resveratrol if that one is a strong PDE inhibitor)
- A supplement to increase cAMP; forskolin is the standard one but we can look at group 2 where nefiracetam is a compound wich also increases cAMP.
- A dopamine increaser like amphetamine.

5. neurogenesis support
- Fish oil
- A choline source
- Uridine

6. Methylene blue wich should be synergetic and adds unique benefits.

Ill expand this post later on; i suspect the addition of pregnenolone would be highly beneficial too.

Id hypothise that.

Resveratrol
Candesartan (major health benefits)
Cilltep (nefiracetam instead of forskolin)
nefiracetam+coluracetam
Craze+another stimulant (combining 2 often works out well, and craze has special property's), dont go too far makes all the difference how long it can be used for. Temp you could really get the max tough and then have a break after a day or 2.
Fish oil/choline/uridine
Methylene blue
Cerebrolysin

[blueinfinity]

for those have have tried, do you feel that the ciltep (artichoke and forskolin) causes you to be tired after repeated days of use?

what is the consensus for best sources or brands of artichoke and forskolin? I've also read on this site somewhere that extracts may have some side effects, any truth to this?

[owtsgmi]

Many have reported that they get tired around 2pm or so following a morning artichoke/forskolin dose (e.g., 5mg forskolin and 2 NOW artichoke caps). I have also felt this with quercetin/forskolin and usually drink coffee in the early afternoon to combat the tiredness. Since I moved from quercetin to artichoke I feel the tiredness is less noticable but still there. Someone reported that splitting up the forskolin/artichoke into two doses (morning/afternoon) alleviates the afternoon tiredness. I plan on trying this once I get around to capping my own CILTEPs.

[blueinfinity]

Many have reported that they get tired around 2pm or so following a morning artichoke/forskolin dose (e.g., 5mg forskolin and 2 NOW artichoke caps). I have also felt this with quercetin/forskolin and usually drink coffee in the early afternoon to combat the tiredness. Since I moved from quercetin to artichoke I feel the tiredness is less noticable but still there. Someone reported that splitting up the forskolin/artichoke into two doses (morning/afternoon) alleviates the afternoon tiredness. I plan on trying this once I get around to capping my own CILTEPs.

im interested in hearing your results