74 replies to this topic

[Hebbeh]

My sex drive hasn't declined much at all since I was a teenager (high), and seemed to go up a bit after going vegan.

If anything sex-drive should go up on a vegan diet do to an increase in testosterone, a decrease in estrogen and better blood-flow to the penis. People feasting on animal-fat and cholesterol are likely to get erectile-dysfunction as they age. Not to mention the main source of dioxins (a proven testosterone-antagonist) are primarily found in animal-fat.

Now you are just making crap up. And have no idea what you are talking about. Unless once again you are attempting to compare to Joe couch potato’s pizza and chicken wing diet which isn't what you will find here.

[Hebbeh]

Just to add a contrasting personal anecdote: Vegetarian for 20 years(20-40 years old), and then Vegan for nearly 5. My sex drive hasn't declined much at all since I was a teenager (high), and seemed to go up a bit after going vegan. To address an other theory in the thread, body weight was about the same since high school until going (moderately low fat) vegan, when I lost about 5 pounds.

Was that 5 pound loss fat mass or muscle mass? If already lean, where did the 5 pounds come from?

I didn't measure it scientifically, but from clothing and appearance, I lost thin layer of fat around middle, dropping about a half pants size. Noticed no change in muscle except improved definition.

To clarify, are you saying that you were fat with a spare tire when you graduated from high school and all the time while you were a vegetarian since you were the same weight since high school until losing the 5 pounds when switching from vegetarian to vegan?

[Application]

Just to add a contrasting personal anecdote: Vegetarian for 20 years(20-40 years old), and then Vegan for nearly 5. My sex drive hasn't declined much at all since I was a teenager (high), and seemed to go up a bit after going vegan. To address an other theory in the thread, body weight was about the same since high school until going (moderately low fat) vegan, when I lost about 5 pounds.

Was that 5 pound loss fat mass or muscle mass? If already lean, where did the 5 pounds come from?

I didn't measure it scientifically, but from clothing and appearance, I lost thin layer of fat around middle, dropping about a half pants size. Noticed no change in muscle except improved definition.

To clarify, are you saying that you were fat with a spare tire when you graduated from high school and all the time while you were a vegetarian since you were the same weight since high school until losing the 5 pounds when switching from vegetarian to vegan?

I don't think anyone would have called me fat. I went from 5' 8" about 143 lbs to ~138 lbs.

[TheFountain]

With all due respect niner, did you ask the question "are you trained in the life sciences" to hebbeh?

I think MisterE is making some fantastic points and citing some good studies. Why are people blasting him and insulting his intelligence? I thought we were getting better in the bias department? But hebbeh made some unqualified statements that people just agree with by default because they concur with their view? Look i'm not going to argue or start a flame war, but I am sensing HEAVY bias here. please calm down with that everyone!

No, I didn't ask Hebbeh that. I asked MisterE that, because he was slagging off people who didn't hold his point of view as "laymen", implying that he was a professional. At the same time, he was making fundamental errors that a person trained in the sciences wouldn't make, so it was really he that was the layman. I think it was a fair response to what I perceived as arrogance, frankly. Is that an insult to his intelligence? Read the whole thread- I held off for a long time. I'm not trying to insult people, but if someone misinterprets the science in an attempt to validate their personal dietary choices, they are going to hear about it from a lot of people here. There is a bias here. Our bias is that we want to get to the truth. In order to do that, we have to understand the science and the methodology involved. I don't think anyone is "blasting" MisterE or insulting his intelligence, but just about everyone is disagreeing with him and trying to point out what we see as his errors. And I don't see where Hebbeh is making unqualified statements that we're all letting slide. Viveutvivas disagreed with something he said, for example, but most everything he's saying is right, as far as I can see. What do you think he said that was wrong?

Whether or not he is trained in the sciences he seems very intelligent to me. I am not saying every point he is making is valid, but there are a couple. I just don't think his incursions were enough to insult his intelligence. He seems well read on said topics. Just because he didn't conduct any peer reviews doesn't mean he's not intelligent. My point is that Hebbeh even admitted he didn't have a science background and said his knowledge came from being an experienced body builder. You know, I do believe that you are in the minority with being an actual trained scientist on this site (correct my assumption if it is wrong). But let's try to be even handed when it comes to criticism that is credible. I think there is enough of it to go around.

[nowayout]

Plus, if estradiol increased SHBG and testosterone decreased SHBG… why do the hormonal-profiles of men with diabetes and heart-disease show low testosterone and SHBG and high estradiol?

Because they have a disease. These people have many thing wrong with them, including very low SHBG, much lower than in young men. This is not what happens in otherwise healthy aging men, where both SHBG and estradiol rise above youthful levels. You keep comparing apples and oranges. You cannot take statements about SHBG and hormones in a disease state and use that to make up conclusions about SHBG and hormones in an otherwise healthy state. Is this so difficult to understand?

The body doesn't make mistakes, the decline of IGF-1 and the rise of SHBG as you age is normal. In fact... it might even be your bodies’ way of trying to maintain longevity and prevent cancer.

Sure the body makes mistakes, otherwise we wouldn't get old and frail and die. And as someone else mentioned, you are now making things up.

Edited by viveutvivas, 16 July 2012 - 02:04 AM.

[niner]

No, I didn't ask Hebbeh that. I asked MisterE that, because he was slagging off people who didn't hold his point of view as "laymen", implying that he was a professional. At the same time, he was making fundamental errors that a person trained in the sciences wouldn't make, so it was really he that was the layman. I think it was a fair response to what I perceived as arrogance, frankly. Is that an insult to his intelligence? Read the whole thread- I held off for a long time. I'm not trying to insult people, but if someone misinterprets the science in an attempt to validate their personal dietary choices, they are going to hear about it from a lot of people here. There is a bias here. Our bias is that we want to get to the truth. In order to do that, we have to understand the science and the methodology involved. I don't think anyone is "blasting" MisterE or insulting his intelligence, but just about everyone is disagreeing with him and trying to point out what we see as his errors. And I don't see where Hebbeh is making unqualified statements that we're all letting slide. Viveutvivas disagreed with something he said, for example, but most everything he's saying is right, as far as I can see. What do you think he said that was wrong?

Whether or not he is trained in the sciences he seems very intelligent to me. I am not saying every point he is making is valid, but there are a couple. I just don't think his incursions were enough to insult his intelligence. He seems well read on said topics. Just because he didn't conduct any peer reviews doesn't mean he's not intelligent. My point is that Hebbeh even admitted he didn't have a science background and said his knowledge came from being an experienced body builder. You know, I do believe that you are in the minority with being an actual trained scientist on this site (correct my assumption if it is wrong). But let's try to be even handed when it comes to criticism that is credible. I think there is enough of it to go around.

I'm not questioning his intelligence. I'm questioning his knowledge and experience. Those things are different. I fail to see this lack of even-handedness that you're seeing. If I understand your argument, you think I should be criticizing Hebbeh... So what has he said that's wrong? Just because people have citations in their post doesn't make it correct, and a lack of citations doesn't make it wrong. I wouldn't give someone a hard time just for being wrong; I've been wrong too many times to count. I start getting grouchy when people are not only wrong but are arrogant, argumentative, and will not accept that they are making mistakes. More grouchiness to come...

[niner]

but if someone misinterprets the science

With all do respect, any outsider reading this would see that you (and others) are misinterpreting the data. A perfect example of this is when you claimed the correlation-plot between total-testosterone and SHBG wasn't significant, even thou the average line was perfectly diagonal.

MisterE, I'm sure you are a fine and intelligent person, but with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Statistical significance isn't determined by whether or not the line is diagonal, it's determined by how close to the line the points are. This is a very basic methodological point, and the fact that you don't seem to understand it shows that you're out of your depth. You approached this topic from square one attempting to prove the superiority of your personal dietary choice; that is a very poor formula for arriving at the truth, as one tends to ignore work that disproves their point.

For the record, here's what I said:

The first, between total T and SHBG isn't much of a correlation, and what correlation there is could be attributed to the fact that the more SHBG you have, the more T it can soak up. The second graph, which is more or less a graph of free T vs SHBG, looks like a 'correlation' of almost exactly zero.

I still stand by this.

Do I sound mean and grouchy? Hell yes I'm grouchy. Biological science is incredibly complex, and you know so little about it that you aren't even aware of how little you know. You've convinced yourself that you have it all figured out, and now you are telling people with multiple decades of real scientific experience that we are "misinterpreting the data". You claimed that you came here wanting to be challenged intellectually, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. It looks like you just want keep making your point, and don't really want to listen to anyone here.

[Hebbeh]

Just to add a contrasting personal anecdote: Vegetarian for 20 years(20-40 years old), and then Vegan for nearly 5. My sex drive hasn't declined much at all since I was a teenager (high), and seemed to go up a bit after going vegan. To address an other theory in the thread, body weight was about the same since high school until going (moderately low fat) vegan, when I lost about 5 pounds.

Was that 5 pound loss fat mass or muscle mass? If already lean, where did the 5 pounds come from?

I didn't measure it scientifically, but from clothing and appearance, I lost thin layer of fat around middle, dropping about a half pants size. Noticed no change in muscle except improved definition.

To clarify, are you saying that you were fat with a spare tire when you graduated from high school and all the time while you were a vegetarian since you were the same weight since high school until losing the 5 pounds when switching from vegetarian to vegan?

I don't think anyone would have called me fat. I went from 5' 8" about 143 lbs to ~138 lbs.

Yeah 138 pounds would be really skinny for adult male....doesn't sound like you would have any muscle mass to sacrifice.

[Luminosity]

The vegetarians/vegans I knew who seemed to have a lot of testosterone got a lot of sunlight, and did not restrict healthy fats/oils and spent a lot of time in the ocean. For every one of those there were more vegans/vegetarians who did not seem to have a lot of testosterone. I would not recommend spending a lot of time in the sunlight just because of the health effects/aging, although it is good for your hormones. Maybe taking vitamin D, maybe K with fat or oil would help your body make the right hormones. B6 and magnesium would help too.

Men who want to build muscle or just be as masculine as possible should eat as much high quality protein as they need. What that means differs from person to person. It depends on what you can digest and what your body needs. But a lot of men would say that they need to eat meat.

Each person has a different ideal diet. Some people do better on meat or at least animal foods.

Edited by Luminosity, 16 July 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[Thorsten3]

Where did I say that cholestrol was a nutrient? I am fully aware that it is manufacured in the body thank you. You shouldn't jump to conclusions but you're a new user who probably thinks he's got things to prove so I forgive you

I was writing under the assumption (naturally, my own assumption) that cholestrol is an essential part of our diet. I personally think it is essential. Your brain craves cholestrol and cholestrol is not the reason we are getting fatter and unhealthier (I blame increased carb intake, cakes, processed sugar and all other types of man made crap, bad lifestyle - inc lack of exercise).

I assume all of your vegetables and fruits are of organic quality? Because if they're not your consuming more man made chemicals than me my friend!

My own experience here but I have experimented with absolutely everything diet wise and nothing feels as good as eating sufficient protein and not being scared of fats. Mixing with fruits and vegetables doesn't seem to be a bad thing either for me. I am wary of not going over board on saturated fat but it isn't something I loose sleep about. I am concerned about PUFAs though and I have since given up fish oil and restarted ALA for my omega 3 (I don't eat fish at all).

i tried being a vegetarian once and I have never felt so terrible in my life. You're welcome to that!

Oh and my arteries are fine thanks. I've been consuming cayenne pepper for best part of a year now and I can assure you I have absolutely no problems with erectile function.

Thanks for that cool post though it was a good read.

If you are vegan where else can you get cholestrol people?

Cholesterol is not a nutrient. It's a hormone produced in the body. If you are familiar with the works of Dr. Dean Ornish or Caldwell Esselstyn, you will see that subjects eating a very low-fat, cholesterol-free diet (based on whole-grains and vegetables), actually had reversal of atherosclerosis [1-4]! No other diet has yet to demonstrate these results. So why are people following the paleo-diet when there is no evidence that it reverses heart-disease? Oh yeah, it's much easier to give up beans and whole-grains than it is steak and eggs and convince yourself you are getting healthier!



[1] Lancet. 1990 Jul 21;336(8708):129-33. Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease? The Lifestyle Heart Trial. Ornish D, Brown SE, Scherwitz LW.

[2] JAMA. 1998 Dec 16;280(23):2001-7. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease. Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH.

[3] Prev Cardiol. 2001 Autumn;4(4):171-177. Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic Through Plant-Based Nutrition. Esselstyn CB Jr.

[4] J Fam Pract. 1995 Dec;41(6):560-8. A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice. Esselstyn CB Jr, Ellis SG, Medendorp SV,

Edited by Thorsten2, 16 July 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Luminosity]

misterE,

You're not a scientist but you play on on the internet.

The fact is, different diets agree with different people. It would be tempting for those who believe in veganism to claim that everyone on it will get healthier and more virile, but that just isn't true. As a woman, my perspective on male sex drives is that there isn't a general tendency for vegan or vegetarians to have stronger sex drives. In general, I'd say the opposite is true, but I'm sure there are exceptions. There are plenty of aging baby boomers around me who have been vegetarians for decades and it doesn't always work out for them, in my opinion.

[InquilineKea]

I switched to veganism last year and my testosterone is now 680. It was actually lower several years ago (when I wasn't vegan and wasn't as religious about restricting calories). I have no idea why it's higher now... Maybe it's the Vitamin D supplements (if that theory is true)... Or certain life status changes (but it was 587 on 6/23/2011, and 2011 was the year I discovered Quora). Or this: http://www.bodybuild...e-meathead.html (I've been doing HIIT more...)

 

My BMI is 16.1, too... I have so much T for such a tiny body.. I've also been trying to consume more of my calories from MUFAs.

 

http://forum.bodybui...php?t=118942791 suggests that olive oil can boost T... I don't know how credible it is, but it's possible...

 

but http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11525593 says MUFAs dont have stat. sig effect..

 

http://paleohacks.co...t-testoste.html suggests MUFAs boost it (and protein decreases it)..

Edited by InquilineKea, 23 April 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[InquilineKea]

hmm.. http://www.washingto...confidence.html has some interesting links (even if not all credible)

 

http://jap.physiolog...content/82/1/49 => this is very interesting

Edited by InquilineKea, 23 April 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Duchykins]

I love my vegan friends dearly which is why I sometimes am sad at how poorly they are feeding themselves and how so sure they are in the superiority of their lifestyle that they don't see how they frail they've become compared to their omnivorous peers. I don't say anything to them about it because I realize that it would be taken the same way as criticizing their religion, politics or parenting style and lead to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment.

These healthy, vibrant vegan celebrities? Those are the exceptions, not the rule in my experience. But celebrities are nearly always the exceptions.

Of course this is a wholly unscientific testimony. I also know the pro-vegan arguments about how the sickly vegans are doing it wrong - - exactly.

A favorite vegan philosophy is being "natural". That makes no sense from a biological perspective. Veganism is "unnatural" for homo sapiens. Long term vegans must supplement to maintian even a modicum of health; supplements are always inferior to actual food and a balanced diet, even most vegans know that, they just don't see how that also applies to themselves.

[Benko]

I've been eating a lot less animal protein and had a vegan period recently and just realized that I'm probably zinc deficient (have not been taking any multi and a test I've used indicates deficiency).  That can't be good for my test level.   

 

And Luminosity's comments are probably true.

 

Also just remembered a friend said that if he was going to run a prison, he'd feed them vegetarian food since it would make them more docile.  I guess this may explain why.