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Supplements to unclog the arteries

atherosclerosis chd heart

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#1 smithx

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:52 PM


So what supplements/herbs are people using to reduce or reverse atherosclerosis?

The ones I'm familiar with (and using) are:

- Vitamin K2 (15mg every other day at the moment) - to remove calcium from the blood and keep it in the bones
- Nattokinase - some anecdotal evidence that this could help clear plaques


That's about it.. is there anything else which is known to or which probably works?

#2 pamojja

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:05 PM

. is there anything else which is known to or which probably works?


Many use the strategies of TrackYourPlaque by Dr. Davis, see for example:

What goes up can’t come down


Effect of a combined therapeutic approach of intensive lipid management, omega-3 fatty acid supplementation, and increased serum 25 (OH) vitamin D on coronary calcium scores in asymptomatic adults.

Davis W, Rockway S, Kwasny M.

The impact of intensive lipid management, omega-3 fatty acid, and vitamin D3 supplementation on atherosclerotic plaque was assessed through serial computed tomography coronary calcium scoring (CCS). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol reduction with statin therapy has not been shown to reduce or slow progression of serial CCS in several recent studies, casting doubt on the usefulness of this approach for tracking atherosclerotic progression. In an open-label study, 45 male and female subjects with CCS of > or = 50 without symptoms of heart disease were treated with statin therapy, niacin, and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to achieve low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides < or = 60 mg/dL; high-density lipoprotein > or = 60 mg/dL; and vitamin D3 supplementation to achieve serum levels of > or = 50 ng/mL 25(OH) vitamin D, in addition to diet advice. Lipid profiles of subjects were significantly changed as follows: total cholesterol -24%, low-density lipoprotein -41%; triglycerides -42%, high-density lipoprotein +19%, and mean serum 25(OH) vitamin D levels +83%.

After a mean of 18 months, 20 subjects experienced decrease in CCS with mean change of -14.5% (range 0% to -64%); 22 subjects experienced no change or slow annual rate of CCS increase of +12% (range 1%-29%). Only 3 subjects experienced annual CCS progression exceeding 29% (44%-71%). Despite wide variation in response, substantial reduction of CCS was achieved in 44% of subjects and slowed plaque growth in 49% of the subjects applying a broad treatment program.


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#3 1kgcoffee

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:33 PM

I don't know how much current science there is to back it, but Linus Pauling suggested a combination of Vitamin C & Lysine. I would add to that hyaluronic acid and type I & III collagen. This may help by aiding collagen synthesis and help to restore some elasticity to your arteries. You can unclog them over time, but if they've lost their elasticity they can tear more easily with no gunk to patch. Are you following any special diet?

What type of vitamin K2 are you taking? 15mg is a lot, I hope you are only taking that dose only in the form of mk-4 as too much mk-7 can cause problems.

#4 DukeNukem

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:53 AM

Definitely K2 (but not K1). Also D3 (at least 5000IU daily). Magnesium citrate (never use the oxide form). And pomegranate extract.
http://www.lef.org/m...egranate_01.htm

Diet is also super key: Stop eating grains and stop using plant oils that have more than 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids, such as canola, peanut, soy and corn oils. You want to stop eating inflammatory foods.
Good summary:
http://coolinginflam...flammatory diet
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#5 ta5

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

Diet is also super key: Stop eating grains and stop using plant oils that have more than 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids, such as canola, peanut, soy and corn oils. You want to stop eating inflammatory foods.
Good summary:
http://coolinginflam...flammatory diet


From that blog:

Saturated fats are healthy and reduce the peroxidation of omega-3 fatty acids at sites of local inflammation, e.g. fatty liver. Saturated fats should be the major source of dietary calories.


Interesting. That's a pretty strong statement. I don't think sat fat is the evil people used to think it was, but I didn't know anyone was going that far.

#6 ta5

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:38 AM

I don't know how much current science there is to back it, but Linus Pauling suggested a combination of Vitamin C & Lysine....


And proline. Though, I don't see proline discussed much at lpi.oregonstate.edu. So, maybe there's some disagreement.

#7 niner

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:10 AM

Saturated fats are healthy and reduce the peroxidation of omega-3 fatty acids at sites of local inflammation, e.g. fatty liver. Saturated fats should be the major source of dietary calories.


Interesting. That's a pretty strong statement. I don't think sat fat is the evil people used to think it was, but I didn't know anyone was going that far.


This sounds like a hyperlipid dietary regime, or a ketogenic diet. Or maybe they meant the major source of fat derived calories? If not, well, that diet wouldn't be for everyone, or even very many people, IMHO.

#8 NDM

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:49 AM

Rutin. If you search the web, you will find a recent Harvard study that showed rutin to inhibit both the platelet aggregation factor (same mechanism through which aspirin helps prevent strokes/heart attacks) and fibrin (the other factor important in clogging; not affected by aspirin). Rutin acts upstream on some protein that inhibits both of these pro-clogging factors. It also seems to be very potent. Anyway, I'm not a biochemist, so don't hate me if my summary of that research isn't as precise as you would like it to be. Funny thing, within weeks of that study getting in the news, all 500 mg rutin products from iHerb went "out of stock".

#9 Logic

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:28 AM

Garlic:
http://www.life-enha...cle.aspx?id=368

AGE blockers and breakers (ALT-711)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22415880
http://eurjhf.oxford...t/12/3/294.full
http://www.fightagin...-alagebrium.php

Chelation <=> AGE:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22354928

I remember reading that the chelation of lead, mercury etc helps?

#10 shaggy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:02 PM

In my opinion is I were to take one supplement for this it would aged garlic extract, evidence is mounting for its benefits regarding cardiovascular health. It also has proven additive effects when added to statin therapy.

Edited by shaggy, 01 August 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#11 Logic

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:36 PM

Chelation therapy will help and should be a big part of any longevity strategy IMO.

http://www.longecity...pper-chelators/

#12 smithx

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:58 AM

Thanks for everyone's comments.

What type of vitamin K2 are you taking? 15mg is a lot, I hope you are only taking that dose only in the form of mk-4 as too much mk-7 can cause problems.


I am taking 15mg of K2 M4 every other day lately.

I am also taking 5000IU of D3, and I did have a somewhat low level of only 31ng/ml in my most recent test. Maybe I should go up to 10,000 IU for a while?

I don't know how much current science there is to back it, but Linus Pauling suggested a combination of Vitamin C & Lysine....


And proline. Though, I don't see proline discussed much at lpi.oregonstate.edu. So, maybe there's some disagreement.


Pauling was a very big vitamin C proponent.

Is there any research data backing up vitamin C, lysine and proline for these purposes?


Definitely K2 (but not K1). Also D3 (at least 5000IU daily). Magnesium citrate (never use the oxide form). And pomegranate extract.
http://www.lef.org/m...egranate_01.htm

Diet is also super key: Stop eating grains and stop using plant oils that have more than 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids, such as canola, peanut, soy and corn oils. You want to stop eating inflammatory foods.
Good summary:
http://coolinginflam...flammatory diet


I have also been taking magnesium citrate nightly, but I ran out of pomegranate extract. Lately I've been concerned that I should also take some calcium.

I was on a low-carb diet until recently. Then I found out that I'm 1/2 APOe4, and that people with my genotype supposedly do badly on high-fat diets. It seems that most people who write about diets don't take APO genotypes into account.

Any comments on that?

In my opinion is I were to take one supplement for this it would aged garlic extract, evidence is mounting for its benefits regarding cardiovascular health. It also has proven additive effects when added to statin therapy.


I take garlic, but not aged garlic.

Are there any studies showing that aged garlic is superior?

Edited by smithx, 05 August 2012 - 01:00 AM.


#13 TheSpawn

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:48 AM

Diet ;-)

see :

http://www.heartatta...f.com/qanda.htm

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0


http://rawfoodsos.fi...tyn_table_1.gif

http://socalrpm.file...efore_after.jpg

Edited by TheSpawn, 05 August 2012 - 06:59 AM.


#14 pamojja

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

Pauling was a very big vitamin C proponent.

Is there any research data backing up vitamin C, lysine and proline for these purposes?


There are many of low dose vitamin C studies, but none at the high doses Paulings recommends. Though many anecdotal experiences including my self: Only once I increased ascorbic acid and lysine above the minimum recommended therapeutical dose did my clautatio intermittens of my PAD improve greatly.

I have also been taking magnesium citrate nightly, but I ran out of pomegranate extract. Lately I've been concerned that I should also take some calcium.


Wouldn't advise any calcium supplementation. Even consistent low serum calcium levels improve with raising one's serum 25(OH)D3 levels.

I was on a low-carb diet until recently. Then I found out that I'm 1/2 APOe4, and that people with my genotype supposedly do badly on high-fat diets. It seems that most people who write about diets don't take APO genotypes into account.

Any comments on that?


Dr. Davis (see link to blog in the first reply to this thread) does take APOe4 into account.

#15 Kevnzworld

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:05 PM

All of the above. I would add red rice yeast extract. It has contributed to my cholesterol numbers going from 210 to 180. I am a believer in the low grade scurvy theory.( vitamin C foundation ), so I take 2000 mg of a buffered ascorbate. For those like me with low free testosterone and DHEA..hormone replacement helps.
Lastly, the vitamin K2 complex, EPA Omega 3, magnesium and tocotrienoll E's

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/21774782. Tocotrienols and Cardiovascular Health

#16 Turnbuckle

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:11 PM

Fullerenes. At least one company has filed a patent application.

#17 smithx

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:18 AM

Pauling was a very big vitamin C proponent.

Is there any research data backing up vitamin C, lysine and proline for these purposes?


There are many of low dose vitamin C studies, but none at the high doses Paulings recommends. Though many anecdotal experiences including my self: Only once I increased ascorbic acid and lysine above the minimum recommended therapeutical dose did my clautatio intermittens of my PAD improve greatly.


At what vitamin C dosage did you see improvement?

I was on a low-carb diet until recently. Then I found out that I'm 1/2 APOe4, and that people with my genotype supposedly do badly on high-fat diets. It seems that most people who write about diets don't take APO genotypes into account.

Any comments on that?


Dr. Davis (see link to blog in the first reply to this thread) does take APOe4 into account.


But he charges for access to his stuff, it seems. Or is there a write-up of his recommendations for APOe4 heterozygous people somewhere?

All of the above. I would add red rice yeast extract. It has contributed to my cholesterol numbers going from 210 to 180. I am a believer in the low grade scurvy theory.( vitamin C foundation ), so I take 2000 mg of a buffered ascorbate. For those like me with low free testosterone and DHEA..hormone replacement helps.
Lastly, the vitamin K2 complex, EPA Omega 3, magnesium and tocotrienoll E's

http://www.ncbi.nlm....med/21774782. Tocotrienols and Cardiovascular Health


I don't want to take lovastatin so I don't want to take red yeast rice. A cousin had a horrible reaction to statins, and I don't want to risk it.

I have actually been taking 25mg of DHEA along with one capsule of LEF SuperMiraForte every morning, and it seems to have a noticeable effect on testosterone.

Fullerenes. At least one company has filed a patent application.


I'm not sure what to make of that patent.

First of all, it's all tissue culture work, nothing in animals.

Secondly, the fact that cells didn't uptake as much lipid after fullerene treatment isn't necessarily a good thing is it? The treatment could have simply damaged the cells.

Also, if there's less lipid uptake wouldn't there be more lipids just floating in the blood? That doesn't sound good either.

#18 smithx

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 03:00 AM

Diet ;-)
see :
http://www.heartatta...f.com/qanda.htm


Hmm.. so go vegan.

Have his studies been published? I didn't locate them.

I don't want to go vegan, but if that's what it takes...

#19 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:29 AM

Diet ;-)
see :
http://www.heartatta...f.com/qanda.htm


Hmm.. so go vegan.

Have his studies been published? I didn't locate them.

I don't want to go vegan, but if that's what it takes...



yes, published

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2100124/


...another published giant in the field - Dr. Dean Ornish :


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17674638

#20 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:42 AM

... just imho the following links show second best way (beneath Diet or better called Nutrition ;-))
a one relying on supplements ...

... most people miss the original meaning of diet, which is a good healthful way of eating, instead
of the understanding most people find diet similiar to missing something, a good diet delivers
all kind of nutrition/nutrients in abundance, but leave the "bad-stuff" from the plate ;-)


Reverse Atherosclerosis and Unclog Arteries With Liquid Arginine


Nobel Prize in Medicine for Role of Nitric Oxide in Cardiovascular Health



... for people who are interested in the why and how of a "useful nutrition/diet" :


The Primitive Nutrition Series Playlist
http://www.youtube.c...B5&feature=plcp

#21 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:51 AM

Thanks for everyone's comments.



Pauling was a very big vitamin C proponent.

Is there any research data backing up vitamin C, lysine and proline for these purposes?



for studys see :
http://www.greenmedi...tance/vitamin-c




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTXSTGGRvKY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddgLzQavQzw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0GC9Fq8lfg

#22 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:03 AM

Saturated fats are healthy and reduce the peroxidation of omega-3 fatty acids at sites of local inflammation, e.g. fatty liver. Saturated fats should be the major source of dietary calories.


... imho, the following is worth a look in connection to the above :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_o4YBQPKtQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbALgjmZUek&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zheiZX0_Z2w&feature=relmfu[/url]



or see :

http://www.youtube.c...B5&feature=plcp

Edited by TheSpawn, 06 August 2012 - 07:25 AM.

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#23 Chupo

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:11 AM

Take your pick.

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194883']
BACKGROUND:

It is currently unknown whether dietary weight loss interventions can induce regression of carotid atherosclerosis.

METHODS AND RESULTS:

In a 2-year Dietary Intervention Randomized Controlled Trial-Carotid (DIRECT-Carotid) study, participants were randomized to low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate diets and were followed for changes in carotid artery intima-media thickness, measured with standard B-mode ultrasound, and carotid vessel wall volume (VWV), measured with carotid 3D ultrasound. Of 140 complete images of participants (aged 51 years; body mass index, 30 kg/m(2); 88% men), higher baseline carotid VWV was associated with increased intima-media thickness, age, male sex, baseline weight, blood pressure, and insulin levels (P<0.05 for all). After 2 years of dietary intervention, we observed a significant 5% regression in mean carotid VWV (-58.1 mm(3;) 95% confidence interval, -81.0 to -35.1 mm(3); P<0.001), with no differences in the low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate groups (-60.69 mm(3), -37.69 mm(3), -84.33 mm(3), respectively; P=0.28). Mean change in intima-media thickness was -1.1% (P=0.18). A reduction in the ratio of apolipoprotein B(100) to apolipoprotein A1 was observed in the low-carbohydrate compared with the low-fat group (P=0.001). Participants who exhibited carotid VWV regression (mean decrease, -128.0 mm(3); 95% confidence interval, -148.1 to -107.9 mm(3)) compared with participants who exhibited progression (mean increase, +89.6 mm(3); 95% confidence interval, +66.6 to +112.6 mm(3)) had achieved greater weight loss (-5.3 versus -3.2 kg; P=0.03), greater decreases in systolic blood pressure (-6.8 versus -1.1 mm Hg; P=0.009) and total homocysteine (-0.06 versus +1.44 mumol/L; P=0.04), and a higher increase of apolipoprotein A1 (+0.05 versus -0.00 g/L; P=0.06). In multivariate regression models, only the decrease in systolic blood pressure remained a significant independent modifiable predictor of subsequent greater regression in both carotid VWV (beta=0.23; P=0.01) and intima-media thickness (beta=0.28; P=0.008) levels.

CONCLUSIONS:

Two-year weight loss diets can induce a significant regression of measurable carotid VWV. The effect is similar in low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate strategies and appears to be mediated mainly by the weight loss-induced decline in blood pressure.


→ source (external link)

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#24 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:17 AM

.... here are pictures :-) :

http://www.heartatta...olving_cade.htm

or see :

http://www.heartatta...om/articles.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bSdnQ1MKGo&list=PLDBBB98ACA18EF67C&index=2&feature=plpp_video


...first of three parts :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFePVU18lQ&list=PLDBBB98ACA18EF67C&index=11&feature=plpp_video


"How Did Atkins Die?
The Truth About Atkins' Death"
http://lowcarbdiets....atkinsdeath.htm



Take your pick.

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194883']
BACKGROUND:

It is currently unknown whether dietary weight loss interventions can induce regression of carotid atherosclerosis.

METHODS AND RESULTS:

In a 2-year Dietary Intervention Randomized Controlled Trial-Carotid (DIRECT-Carotid) study, participants were randomized to low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate diets and were followed for changes in carotid artery intima-media thickness, measured with standard B-mode ultrasound, and carotid vessel wall volume (VWV), measured with carotid 3D ultrasound. Of 140 complete images of participants (aged 51 years; body mass index, 30 kg/m(2); 88% men), higher baseline carotid VWV was associated with increased intima-media thickness, age, male sex, baseline weight, blood pressure, and insulin levels (P<0.05 for all). After 2 years of dietary intervention, we observed a significant 5% regression in mean carotid VWV (-58.1 mm(3;) 95% confidence interval, -81.0 to -35.1 mm(3); P<0.001), with no differences in the low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate groups (-60.69 mm(3), -37.69 mm(3), -84.33 mm(3), respectively; P=0.28). Mean change in intima-media thickness was -1.1% (P=0.18). A reduction in the ratio of apolipoprotein B(100) to apolipoprotein A1 was observed in the low-carbohydrate compared with the low-fat group (P=0.001). Participants who exhibited carotid VWV regression (mean decrease, -128.0 mm(3); 95% confidence interval, -148.1 to -107.9 mm(3)) compared with participants who exhibited progression (mean increase, +89.6 mm(3); 95% confidence interval, +66.6 to +112.6 mm(3)) had achieved greater weight loss (-5.3 versus -3.2 kg; P=0.03), greater decreases in systolic blood pressure (-6.8 versus -1.1 mm Hg; P=0.009) and total homocysteine (-0.06 versus +1.44 mumol/L; P=0.04), and a higher increase of apolipoprotein A1 (+0.05 versus -0.00 g/L; P=0.06). In multivariate regression models, only the decrease in systolic blood pressure remained a significant independent modifiable predictor of subsequent greater regression in both carotid VWV (beta=0.23; P=0.01) and intima-media thickness (beta=0.28; P=0.008) levels.

CONCLUSIONS:

Two-year weight loss diets can induce a significant regression of measurable carotid VWV. The effect is similar in low-fat, Mediterranean, or low-carbohydrate strategies and appears to be mediated mainly by the weight loss-induced decline in blood pressure.


→ source (external link)


Edited by TheSpawn, 06 August 2012 - 07:52 AM.

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#25 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:08 AM

... for more information see :


The China Study - Chapter 5 - Broken Hearts - Start Page 111 :

http://books.google....r chest&f=false

Edited by TheSpawn, 06 August 2012 - 08:11 AM.


#26 smithx

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:15 AM

Thanks for the posts.

This study:
Dietary intervention to reverse carotid atherosclerosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20194883

Which was linked above is an example of why this question is so confusing. Every diet worked!

So maybe we're back to caloric restriction as the answer?

Edited by smithx, 06 August 2012 - 08:23 AM.


#27 TheSpawn

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:20 AM

yes, published

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2100124/
...another published giant in the field - Dr. Dean Ornish :
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17674638



That link is for letter, which links to a popularizing book and an article, but I really want to see the actual study report, including all the data.

Do you have a link for that?



like that :

http://onlinelibrary...01.00538.x/full


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10496449


http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7500065

#28 Chupo

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:30 AM

"How Did Atkins Die?


He had a brain injury. How did Pritikin die? Oh yeah, he got cancer which is associated with low cholesterol. Then he committed suicide. Again associated with low cholesterol.

You're a vegan troll.
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#29 smithx

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:35 AM

like that :

http://onlinelibrary...01.00538.x/full


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10496449


http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7500065


Hmm... the first one shows a few angiograms but doesn't actually have any data on all the study participants, the conditions, the protocol, or anything else rigorous. T

The second one has no data at all in the abstract, and the article costs $$.

The third one does have data, but the data are actually less compelling than the study Chupoman linked, which indicates that weight loss and lower blood pressure may be what's important.

So, weight loss seems to win again?

Edited by smithx, 06 August 2012 - 08:46 AM.

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#30 pamojja

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:51 AM

Pauling was a very big vitamin C proponent.

Is there any research data backing up vitamin C, lysine and proline for these purposes?


There are many of low dose vitamin C studies, but none at the high doses Paulings recommends. Though many anecdotal experiences including my self: Only once I increased ascorbic acid and lysine above the minimum recommended therapeutical dose did my clautatio intermittens of my PAD improve greatly.


At what vitamin C dosage did you see improvement?


The preventive dose is 3, the therapeutic 6 gram/day.


I was on a low-carb diet until recently. Then I found out that I'm 1/2 APOe4, and that people with my genotype supposedly do badly on high-fat diets. It seems that most people who write about diets don't take APO genotypes into account.

Any comments on that?


Dr. Davis (see link to blog in the first reply to this thread) does take APOe4 into account.


But he charges for access to his stuff, it seems. Or is there a write-up of his recommendations for APOe4 heterozygous people somewhere?


If you searched his blog a bid you would have found ;)

Also It's only a one time fee for a quarter of a year access to his forum, much more reading material and the TrackYourPlaque book (as PDF) for not much more than a hard cover book usually costs.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: atherosclerosis, chd, heart

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