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Oxiracetam, Piracetam, and Centrophenoxine - questions and comments


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#1 LBGSHI

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:45 PM


I've been taking piracetam for some time. I originally took it without a choline source, which caused mild headaches and brain fog (and I noticed no positive effects from piracetam), after which I added choline bitartrate, which seemed to resolve those issues most of the time (and suddenly, the mild but noticeable effects of piracetam made their appearance), but the headaches and brain fog would recur periodically and I couldn't seem to identify the correct dosage and timing (with meals, sleep, etc) to eradicate the negative symptoms and promote the positive ones. Hence, I moved on to CDP choline, which didn't seem to offer any improvement from choline bitartrate, except that I could take less tablets and achieve the same level of (sporadic) effect. Finally, I arrived at alpha-GPC, which seemed to consistently smooth out any negative effects of piracetam, and allow the positive effects to show through. At this point, I stayed with alpha-GPC + piracetam for some time, and was quite satisfied with the results (improved creativity, markedly improved multi-tasking capability, ease in solving problems that I'd been unable to solve for months or even years prior - "Wait, why don't I just do this instead of that? Problem solved.").

Later, I decided to try aniracetam, as the literature and some anecdotal reports looked promising. I first tried it with piracetam, and noticed that I needed to up my alpha-GPC, or I'd burn through choline and get mild headaches and brain fog again. Once I nailed down a proper dosage, I noticed that aniracetam seemed to negate piracetam's effects, but presented its own interesting effects anyway, so I dropped piracetam for the time being, and lowered my alpha-GPC dose correspondingly. This was great for a boost to single-minded focus, and had the added effect of completely removing any anxiety or concern I might normally run into during the day (later, I discovered that aniracetam is considered an anxiolytic, meaning it reduces anxiety). However, this was not without its side-effects, and it turned out in my case that my anxiety was reduced along with every other emotional response. While using aniracetam, I was quickly bored or even annoyed by the emotional plights of others (apparently frustration was still somewhat intact), and according to friends and family I became somewhat 'dry', though I certainly didn't observe this myself. I think a good comparison would be Spock from Star Trek - all logic, no emotion. This certainly wasn't good for social interaction, which is a huge part of human life, and since I'd also lost the improved creativity and multi-tasking capabilities of piracetam, the single gain of more single-minded concentration wasn't worth the side-effects, so I ended up going back to piracetam, for its subtle yet effective results.

A little later, I tried centrophenoxine, and eventually ended up replacing alpha-GPC with this new supplement. It seemed to provide the same effect as alpha-GPC, with an added mild stimulant effect. It did cause slight nausea for the first few minutes after taking it, but the positive effects were well worth this minor annoyance. After a while, the stimulant effect seemed to build up and affect sleep, and reducing the centrophenoxine enough to minimize the stimulant effect resulted in the normal headache/brain fog effect of reduced choline, so I ended up returning to alpha-GPC after all.

After about six months of taking piracetam and alpha-GPC, I decided to try tapering off and eventually halting all nootropic supplementation. I'd read that piracetam had not only temporary effects, but some permanent effects on neural pathways across the corpus callosum, and I wanted to see how much of the effect was permanent and how much was being caused by continuous supplementation. Once I'd tapered completely off of all supplements, I abstained from taking any of them for six months, to allow for a definite return to normal chemical balance in my brain. I was able to identify a significant decrease in mental capability, however, I've always been quite intelligent, and I was by no means debilitated by this decrease. I did not feel that I was mentally less capable than when I began taking piracetam, and felt in fact that I was considerably more able to focus than I had been in the past. Much of this could have been psychosomatic, or a result of over-analysis - I'm not ignorant of the potential for bias in this way. Overall, I felt a decrease in multi-tasking capability was the most evident effect of halting piracetam supplementation. I resumed my normal regimen (piracetam + alpha-GPC), and noticed an immediate boost back to the level of faculty I'd enjoyed earlier on piracetam, and this effect was retained as long as I kept the doses of both supplements steady.

About three weeks ago, I decided to try oxiracetam, which I'd considered for some time. I would have liked to have taken it by itself, but to observe and isolate proper effects I'd need to abstain from nootropics again for a prolonged period of time, and I was loath to do so. I could also have opted to simply introduce it into my normal regimen of piracetam and alpha-GPC, but I decided to give it a jump-start by replacing alpha-GPC with centrophenoxine for a time (I'd kept some from earlier), and including piracetam.

The first time I took it, within a couple of hours I felt amazing. There was no sense of 'euphoria', like one might get with some of the classic, illegal drugs, and no 'buzz' like one might experience after taking a stimulant, but I felt as if I were operating at perfect efficiency, my mood was great, and I had plenty of energy, a bounce in my step, and a million ideas and thoughts about everything I encountered. Oxiracetam was unlike any of the other nootropic supplements I've tried, in that I could definitively 'feel' the effects, and within hours of the first dose. I stuck with just one capsule (800mg) per day in the mornings for the first few days, coupled with one capsule (800mg) of piracetam and one capsule (500mg) of centrophenoxine (all on an empty stomach immediately after waking up), and this seemed to work fine. I then added a second dose of all three supplements before lunch, on an empty stomach. This produced an even more pronounced effect, with no noticeable side-effects.

An interesting, generally positive (from my point of view) side effect was observed one night when I decided to have a few beers. I don't drink much, and have intentionally abstained from virtually all alcohol for the past year or so, since the general realization that everything I enjoy doing (reading, writing, watching documentaries, studying for work-related exams for career progression, etc) involves using my mind significantly, and thus once I've impaired it even a little, I'm less capable of doing anything I enjoy, and thus get bored and either go to sleep, or sit around doing things I can barely appreciate. This night, I came to the realization that, after four beers, which would usually have an appreciable effect on me (not 'drunk', but certainly comfortably 'buzzed'), I felt zero effect whatsoever. I confirmed this again with wine the next day. After reading around, I believe this can be attributed to oxiracetam's effect of protecting the brain from toxins. Other people have anecdotally mentioned the same effect, although strangely, some people seem to feel MORE intoxicated by alcohol while taking oxiracetam. Perhaps the latter can be attributed to drinking while oxiracetam is still operating but almost effectively diminished, followed by oxiracetam's efficacy decreasing after several hours, during which more alcohol is consumed, which remains in the bloodstream and has the perceived effect of 'hitting all at once'...but this is just my conjecture.

About 1.5 weeks in (1.5 weeks ago), circumstances of work, home, family, and so forth coincided to deprive me of sleep to a fairly severe degree (something like 4 hours of sleep per night for several nights in a row), and I noticed, only twice, a strange side effect, presumably from the oxiracetam (I'd been deprived of sleep before when using piracetam and centrophenoxine, and never noticed any ill effects). I can only describe this side effect as an extremely brief period (three seconds at most) of 'lost time'. I was out with my wife, as a female friend of hers had come to town to visit, and she was alternately chatting with me at the bar and dancing with her friend. I was not drinking any alcohol this night, as I was the designated driver (and as noted, I don't drink very often anyway). One of the times she dropped by to chat with me for a few minutes, she gave me a quick kiss and headed back out to the dance floor - only, she didn't head out to the dance floor, so far as I perceived...she simply gave me a kiss, then suddenly WAS on the dance floor. Judging by the fact that she had just started to dance with her friend, and that the dance floor was just next to the bar, I determined that the approximate time I'd 'lost' was about two seconds at most. At first I suspected I might have just imagined the effect due to lack of sleep, but it occured again when we were walking out of the bar. One instant, we were heading toward the door to leave the building, and the next instant we were outside about ten feet from the door - again, about two, perhaps three seconds at most. This did not recur again, and has not recurred since, but it is certainly not the kind of thing one wants happening regularly. My only (weak) hypothesis at this point is that when the brain is affected by oxiracetam, it is handling more data at a more detailed level of operation than usual, and if this is compounded by a severe lack of sleep, there are moments in which the brain simply cannot process all of the data it's already taken in along with all the data that is constantly coming in, so it makes a decision to ignore all incoming data for a brief moment while it catches up with the data it's already accepted. Any thoughts would be appreciated. In the meantime, I'll make sure not to take oxiracetam if I'm going to be severely deprived of sleep :)

Finally, I've started to feel sleepy (not foggy, nor physically tired, but sleepy - as in, a pleasant, but unwanted, desire to lie down and go to sleep) toward the end of the day, despite the fact that I have been getting adequate sleep for several days since the incident mentioned above, and despite the fact that my mornings and early afternoons are still wonderfully enhanced via the same effects I experienced when I began taking oxiracetam. I believe this is probably just a side-effect of long-term use of centrophenoxine (a similar effect occurred last time I used it, as I mentioned above), but strangely I don't have a mentally burned-out feeling...just a sleepy feeling. I've read here and there that oxiracetam causes drowsiness in some people, which is why I mentioned this effect (and also, because if I swap centrophenoxine with alpha-GPC again and the effect disappears, I'd like to log that for the benefit of others).

Today, I decided to see what would happen if I took a third dose of centrophenoxine at about 3PM, and this did seem to increase my alertness again, but I assume this will result in me being even more tired later, as that is the general pattern of stimulants...and I doubt this is a case of more choline being required. I'll report back tomorrow or the next day, as time permits, with updates. Questions and comments would be appreciated.
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#2 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

Also, I forgot to mention (and I'm still 'stimulated' and not at all tired more than 6 hours after that third dose of centrophenoxine, though that could also be attributed to the large Coke I drank alongside it), another interesting side effect I've noticed since the first day I began taking oxiracetam: an increased appreciation and enjoyment of music, and the desire to hum, whistle, or tap it out on my steering wheel. I read about this before I began taking oxiracetam, but this is not a placebo effect - it's very obvious, and it occurs when I'm not thinking about it. It's quite nice, actually. It might be related to the general increase in well-being and energy that comes along with oxiracetam, but it seems to be a symptom in its own right. Interesting stuff.

I'll report back tomorrow once I've started taking alpha-GPC instead of centrophenoxine...although, if my guess is correct, and centrophenoxine has been disrupting a good night's sleep, it may take a couple of days for my brain to fully recover and enjoy the renewed effects of the 'racetams again.

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#3 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

OK, this morning, on an empty stomach as usual, I took one capsule (300mg) of alpha-GPC (in place of centrophenoxine) with my normal dosage of one capsule (800mg) of piracetam and one capsule (800mg) of oxiracetam. I'm about halfway to lunch, and I've experienced the positive effects of piracetam and oxiracetam without the negative effects of a choline deficiency (also, there's the added bonus of no minor stomach distress for a few minutes, as with centrophenoxine). Thus, so far so good, although as noted I'll need to wait a few days to see if the removal of centrophenoxine from my stack results in better sleep and thus elimination of the fatigued end-of-day feeling. It is possible, also, that the centrophenoxine resulted in same-day 'crash', which would be avoided in this case...but time will tell.

Also, I just noticed that Cognitive Nutrition has suddenly stopped carrying centrophenoxine, and there's not even a page for it there anymore. I've sent them an email asking why this has occurred.

Edited by lbgshi, 16 November 2012 - 04:10 PM.


#4 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

Update per Cognitive Nutrition suddenly dropping centrophenoxine - apparently, they merely sold out of their supply, and are currently producing a new batch. Strange that they'd remove the entire page from existence rather than just stating that they're temporarily sold out...

#5 leftside

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:34 PM

Appreciate your thoughts on these nootropics. My current stack:
Ani: 1g twice/day
Alpha GPC: 300mg twice/day
Noopept 15mg twice/day
ALCAR: 500mg twice/day

I've been using the above stack for a couple of months now (introduced the noopept a month ago and will cycle it soon). I've ordered some oxiracetam and I'm looking forward to adding that. I have also ordered some piracetam. I'll try the piracetam without and with the aniracetam. I like my current stack, but feel it is losing some effect.

I'll also have to give the centrophenoxine a try.

#6 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:30 PM

Appreciate your thoughts on these nootropics. My current stack:
Ani: 1g twice/day
Alpha GPC: 300mg twice/day
Noopept 15mg twice/day
ALCAR: 500mg twice/day

I've been using the above stack for a couple of months now (introduced the noopept a month ago and will cycle it soon). I've ordered some oxiracetam and I'm looking forward to adding that. I have also ordered some piracetam. I'll try the piracetam without and with the aniracetam. I like my current stack, but feel it is losing some effect.

I'll also have to give the centrophenoxine a try.


If you feel like the effectiveness of your stack is decreasing, try modulating choline - first try decreasing the amount of choline you take (or eliminating it entirely), and see if you get negative or positive results over a couple of days. Next, try increasing the amount of choline beyond your normal dose, and watch that for a couple of days as well.

I suppose the above is a fairly common-sense suggestion, so apologies if it isn't helpful.

I liked aniracetam for its benefit of increased focus, but didn't like it for its blunting of my emotions in general. I've never tried either noopept or ALCAR, although I recall reading that noopept shouldn't be taken continuously.

If you decide to introduce centrophenoxine to your stack, keep in mind that you'll probably want to drop the alpha-GPC (unless you're extremely choline deficient), and that it will have a mild stimulant effect...and probably shouldn't be taken continuously.

Edited by lbgshi, 16 November 2012 - 07:31 PM.


#7 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

Well, I've nearly finished the normal work day, taking one capsule (300mg) of alpha-GPC rather than one capsule (800mg) of centrophenoxine, twice per day with piracetam and oxiracetam as above, and still no sleepiness. I also took a third capsule (300mg) of alpha-GPC about three hours after the normal pre-lunch dosage of supplements, but without any other supplements - I figured I was probably taking a pretty significant cut in cerebral acetylcholine going from 1600mg of centrophenoxine to 600mg of alpha-GPC, and could use the extra choline source. So far, no headaches or brain fog, and no cramping or clenched-jaw feeling, so I assume I'm somewhere within the 'sweet spot' as far as choline goes. Positive effects of oxiracetam and piracetam are still going strong. Presumably, I'll feel even better after a good night's sleep with no centrophenoxine disrupting REM.

#8 leftside

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

If you feel like the effectiveness of your stack is decreasing, try modulating choline - first try decreasing the amount of choline you take (or eliminating it entirely), and see if you get negative or positive results over a couple of days. Next, try increasing the amount of choline beyond your normal dose, and watch that for a couple of days as well.

I suppose the above is a fairly common-sense suggestion, so apologies if it isn't helpful.

I liked aniracetam for its benefit of increased focus, but didn't like it for its blunting of my emotions in general. I've never tried either noopept or ALCAR, although I recall reading that noopept shouldn't be taken continuously.

If you decide to introduce centrophenoxine to your stack, keep in mind that you'll probably want to drop the alpha-GPC (unless you're extremely choline deficient), and that it will have a mild stimulant effect...and probably shouldn't be taken continuously.

I've recently bumped the ani to 1g twice a day and that seems to have made an improvement. I'll play around with the choline next week. Other points noted. Thanks.

Getting the balance between a decent daytime "focus stack", and not being too stimulated, and a decent nighttime "sleep stack" is a tricky balance, but I'm getting there....

#9 LBGSHI

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

As a follow-up, I was correct in my assumption that centrophenoxine was the cause of my over-stimulation and sleep issues. After switching back to alpha-GPC, the difference was felt the same day, when I began to wind down for the night. Thus, it was not prolonged use of oxiracetam, but rather prolonged use of centrophenoxine, that caused these symptoms. I suppose that's no surprise, as most supplement companies advise customers to cycle off of centrophenoxine at least a couple of days per week (I assume to allow various receptors to resensitize?), and I took it twice per day for about three weeks before feeling negative symptoms - if anything, my brain is rather resilient :)

Having taken a break from centrophenoxine for several days, I've resumed taking it twice per day with oxiracetam and piracetam (instead of alpha-GPC), and will see how I feel when cycling off centrophenoxine over the weekend and switching to alpha-GPC during that time.

#10 Revolutionary

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:16 AM

As a follow-up, I was correct in my assumption that centrophenoxine was the cause of my over-stimulation and sleep issues. After switching back to alpha-GPC, the difference was felt the same day, when I began to wind down for the night. Thus, it was not prolonged use of oxiracetam, but rather prolonged use of centrophenoxine, that caused these symptoms. I suppose that's no surprise, as most supplement companies advise customers to cycle off of centrophenoxine at least a couple of days per week (I assume to allow various receptors to resensitize?), and I took it twice per day for about three weeks before feeling negative symptoms - if anything, my brain is rather resilient :)

Having taken a break from centrophenoxine for several days, I've resumed taking it twice per day with oxiracetam and piracetam (instead of alpha-GPC), and will see how I feel when cycling off centrophenoxine over the weekend and switching to alpha-GPC during that time.


Awesome thread.

Thank you for following up and keeping a log of your experiences.

I have been currently debating whether I should add oxiracetam to my stack...

Currently I am on piracetam/choline bitartrate with a b-complex/ginseng and fish oil. Lately I have been feeling more "Foggy" and or random sleepiness? This may be due to my recent increase in the amount of choline bitartrate I am consuming- raised from about .8g (2x per day) to 2g (2x per day). Not sure why I even raised this, just read over some things and decided to raise it. However, I am not getting the same results as I was before from piracetam; could it be the additional choline?

-Any suggestions?

And I've never heard of centrophenoxine until I read your thread... Going to research this stuff.

And why do you use alpha GPC rather than choline bitartrate? Probably a reoccuring question/theme on these forums, sorry for the redundancy.

#11 LBGSHI

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Awesome thread.

Thank you for following up and keeping a log of your experiences.

I have been currently debating whether I should add oxiracetam to my stack...

Currently I am on piracetam/choline bitartrate with a b-complex/ginseng and fish oil. Lately I have been feeling more "Foggy" and or random sleepiness? This may be due to my recent increase in the amount of choline bitartrate I am consuming- raised from about .8g (2x per day) to 2g (2x per day). Not sure why I even raised this, just read over some things and decided to raise it. However, I am not getting the same results as I was before from piracetam; could it be the additional choline?

-Any suggestions?

And I've never heard of centrophenoxine until I read your thread... Going to research this stuff.

And why do you use alpha GPC rather than choline bitartrate? Probably a reoccurring question/theme on these forums, sorry for the redundancy.


If you've recently increased your choline, I would certainly suspect that to be the cause. The 'racetam-choline ratio is non-trivial; too much or too little and you'll either end up with no effects from the 'racetam, fogginess/sleepiness, or headaches. The good news is that there's a pretty wide latitude in which you can receive a 'proper' amount of choline per 'racetam, and it's also fairly easy to determine your personal requirements - simply increase or decrease your choline intake, and within a day or so the effects will be apparent.

Aside from the (large) probability that you're now ingesting too much choline, there is also the possibility that you are no longer benefiting from piracetam for other reasons. One theory, mentioned by another user on these forums and anecdotally verified by several others, is that some people with adrenal or thyroid imbalances, which may not manifest themselves otherwise, will burn through sodium and other electrolytes faster when using a 'racetam, and that these people will notice a decline in the efficacy of their chosen 'racetam as their electrolytes become imbalanced. A quick test for this would seem to be, well, increasing your salt intake. Obviously you shouldn't do so if you've got high blood pressure or already intake plenty of salt, but it's something to consider. Many people don't get enough salt, despite the media hype concerning the evils of adding salt to foods, and sodium chloride, an important electrolyte compound, helps regulate water in your cells, among other things. When you sweat, you lose salt, and if you don't replenish it, your body equalizes your electrolytic balance by dumping either potassium, water, or both...meaning you could drink plenty of water and still be dehydrated at the cellular level because your body is dumping all that water into your bladder and sweat glands. You could try to replenish electrolytes with a sports drink like Gatorade or Powerade, but as these are heavy on potassium and light on sodium, you'd end up forcing your body into the 'dump things until you're balanced' mode, unless you just so happen to be extremely short of potassium at the same time as you're slightly short on sodium. In the end, you may benefit from simply tossing back a pinch of salt with some water, or adding some to your normal food. I use salt in my food quite regularly, but then again I'm physically active, healthy, and have textbook-perfect blood pressure and heart beat, according to any doc I've been seen by. As a side note, I've picked up sea salt from my local grocery store, because it tastes better to me than iodized salt, and it seems to me that with increased salt intake, one would end up with perhaps too much iodide. Still, no one wants goiter, so I add some iodized salt from time to time :)

Choline bitartrate is, in my experience, the least effective form of choline available (I started with it as well, mind you). I would highly recommend you upgrade to alpha-GPC, a much more bio-available source of choline, which crosses the blood brain barrier more readily. If you're currently taking 800mg of choline bitartrate, then a single capsule of alpha-GPC (300mg) should be sufficient for you. It may be slightly more expensive, but I doubt you will go back to choline bitartrate after trying alpha-GPC. Also, the best price for a reliable product I've found for alpha-GPC has been Vitamin Shoppe (and even if they don't have the stuff in stock at a given store, they can order it into the store at no cost). Currently, it's $29.99 for a bottle of 60 capsules of 300mg each (by Jarrow Formulas), which should be adequate supply for one month for you (one, twice a day). This seems to be cheaper per gram than any reputable bulk powder price, which is surprising.

Centrophenoxine is good stuff, but as mentioned, remember to cycle off of it periodically or you'll experience mental burnout and a tendency to feel sleepy a few hours too early in the day. At least, that was my experience, and seems to be confirmed by others.

I would highly recommend that you try oxiracetam. As always with 'racetams, your personal experience my vary, but the vast majority of people I've talked to or read logs of have agreed that oxiracetam is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, 'racetam available (some people prefer pramiracetam, which I haven't tried yet, and will probably not try due to the apparently common side-effect of daytime sleepiness). My first time trying oxiracetam (with centrophenoxine and piracetam) had me sold on it. This was not an ambiguous feeling ("I think it's working..."), but a definite one. Although piracetam is certainly no placebo, and the effects are eventually apparent, it's much more subtle than oxiracetam. Moreover, oxiracetam seems to have additional effects, such as a general increase in ambition and motivation, which are great. With oxiracetam/piracetam/centrophenoxine and an energy drink, I feel a little like I can take over the world :)

Edited by lbgshi, 20 November 2012 - 12:59 PM.

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#12 dsohei

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

Amazing posts. Do u feel benefits from just taking oxi and gpc, or oxi and centro, or oxi/centro/gpc? All combinations without the piracetam.

#13 LBGSHI

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

I haven't tried oxiracetam without piracetam yet, and may not for some time...I'm enjoying the effects too much to disturb the balance at the moment :)
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#14 dsohei

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

I'll start trying oxi/pira/gpc later today. I do gpc daily anyway, and have been doing dmae - I hear centro is a more amped version of dmae.

#15 leftside

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:36 AM

I'm adding Centrophenoxine tomorrow and dropping Noopept. I'll cycle this Centrophenoxine for 5 days. 250mg in the morning and 250mg in the afternoon.

#16 LBGSHI

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:16 PM

I'm adding Centrophenoxine tomorrow and dropping Noopept. I'll cycle this Centrophenoxine for 5 days. 250mg in the morning and 250mg in the afternoon.


Sounds like a plan.

Meanwhile, I've been taking centrophenoxine only once or twice a week, as I believe my brain is still reeling a little from the previous three-week continuous centrophenoxine use. The two times I've tried resuming normal centrophenoxine use for more than a day, the gentle sleepiness crept in during the late afternoon, a few hours earlier than I'd like to feel sleepy. However, the slight stimulant effect makes it more than worth the occasional use, and I assume I'll be able to comfortably resume four days on, three days off - or perhaps five days on, two days off - soon enough.

While still taking alpha-GPC in centrophenoxine's place, I've decided to finally try increasing my dose of oxiracetam. While my previous stack was:

Piracetam - 800mg
Oxiracetam - 800mg
Alpha-GPC - 300mg

...twice daily, my current experimental stack is:

Piracetam - 800mg
Oxiracetam - 800mg x2
Alpha-GPC - 300mg x2

...twice daily. Having already introduced the original 800mg of oxiracetam to a stack of 800mg of piracetam and 300mg of alpha-GPC without increasing the dose of alpha-GPC, I decided that an additional 800mg of oxiracetam probably dictated an increase in alpha-GPC. Today is my first day attempting this, and I took my second dose of this stack a couple of hours ago. Admittedly, I didn't get much sleep last night, and was already quite tired before I took my first dose, and thus my first day's results are probably worthless...but I'll post back after a few days with a brief report.

#17 leftside

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

Keep us posted. I should have some Oxiracetam arriving at the weekend and I'll be adding that to my "core" stack.
Piracetam: 2g *2
Alpha GPC: 300mg *2
Aniracetam: 1g *2
ALCAR: 500mg *2

New this week: Sulbutiamine: 200mg *2 (5 days on, 2 days off)
New this week: Centrophenoxine: 250mg twice/day (5 days on, 2 days off)

New next week: Oxiracetam - 800mg x2

Yes, I also find that a bad nights sleep can cause any stack to have "no effect". I'm currently experimenting with different combinations of Tryptophan, 5-HTP, melatonin, glycine, l-theanine, GABA, inositol, taurine, magnesium with admittedly poor results so far. Melatonin on it's own still seems to be the best for me.

#18 LBGSHI

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

Keep us posted. I should have some Oxiracetam arriving at the weekend and I'll be adding that to my "core" stack.
Piracetam: 2g *2
Alpha GPC: 300mg *2
Aniracetam: 1g *2
ALCAR: 500mg *2


That's a lot of 'racetam for so little choline. Do you eat a large amount of egg-based or other choline-rich food? Do you notice any fogginess, or other symptoms of choline deficiency? If not, once you've added oxiracetam, you might consider increasing your choline intake to compensate. Some people seem to sustain adequate acetylcholine levels without supplementing choline at all, or very little, so it's possible you fall into that category.


Yes, I also find that a bad nights sleep can cause any stack to have "no effect". I'm currently experimenting with different combinations of Tryptophan, 5-HTP, melatonin, glycine, l-theanine, GABA, inositol, taurine, magnesium with admittedly poor results so far. Melatonin on it's own still seems to be the best for me.


Seconded; melatonin by itself seems to provide the best quality and quantity of sleep as compared to other supplements. You could in a pinch throw back a diphenhydramine HCL or two ("Benadryl"/generic anti-histamine/sleep aid, depending on how it's marketed), but I've noticed that I get a relatively poor quality of sleep with DHCL, and usually there's a slight carry-over of the effects into the next morning (besides, it's a strong anti-cholinergic, so any carry-over at all begins to defeat the purpose of things like nootropics). Melatonin induces longer periods of REM, so dreams are protracted and vivid, and one often wakes up in the middle of a dream to the alarm clock, still recalling the minute details of dreams. Generally, with a proper dose, I wake up feeling refreshed and well-rested. I make a point of not taking melatonin every night (although many people do, and there doesn't seem to be harm in doing so); as melatonin 'resets your clock' as pertains to sleep, it seems that the day after melatonin ingestion, my body begins telling me to go to sleep at about the same time without melatonin at all. This wears off in another day or two, though it's not the kind of thing you can perceive unless you relax and try to go to sleep.

#19 LBGSHI

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Also, having gotten a (slightly) better quantity and quality of sleep last night (my wife's friends kept us up somewhat late, but I got about 6.5 hours of sleep, with no melatonin, incidentally), the increased dose of oxiracetam and corresponding increased dose of alpha-GPC have been working very well. There is certainly an increase in the efficacy of oxiracetam at this increased dose. I had to train a new employee at work, and along with having an even easier time explaining quite complex systems and interactions, I was able to fluidly cross-reference topics and add humor when desired, even more so than usual (I've been told I have a good sense of humor normally, anyway).

More updates to come.

leftside: Keep in mind that aniracetam is an anxiolytic, and seems to curb emotions in general. This may affect some of oxiracetam's positive effects on mood and motivation; I've never tried them together. Aniracetam also seems to increase focus, which in my case decreased piracetam's improvement of multi-tasking and multi-cognition. Just a thought.

Edited by lbgshi, 27 November 2012 - 09:36 PM.


#20 leftside

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

Keep us posted. I should have some Oxiracetam arriving at the weekend and I'll be adding that to my "core" stack.
Piracetam: 2g *2
Alpha GPC: 300mg *2
Aniracetam: 1g *2
ALCAR: 500mg *2


That's a lot of 'racetam for so little choline. Do you eat a large amount of egg-based or other choline-rich food? Do you notice any fogginess, or other symptoms of choline deficiency? If not, once you've added oxiracetam, you might consider increasing your choline intake to compensate. Some people seem to sustain adequate acetylcholine levels without supplementing choline at all, or very little, so it's possible you fall into that category.


Actually I have been noticing a little bit of fog lately, but I thought that was due to less than great sleep the last few nights. Cheers for the tip. I'll add some citicoline that I have.

#21 leftside

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

Yes, I also find that a bad nights sleep can cause any stack to have "no effect". I'm currently experimenting with different combinations of Tryptophan, 5-HTP, melatonin, glycine, l-theanine, GABA, inositol, taurine, magnesium with admittedly poor results so far. Melatonin on it's own still seems to be the best for me.


Seconded; melatonin by itself seems to provide the best quality and quantity of sleep as compared to other supplements. You could in a pinch throw back a diphenhydramine HCL or two ("Benadryl"/generic anti-histamine/sleep aid, depending on how it's marketed), but I've noticed that I get a relatively poor quality of sleep with DHCL, and usually there's a slight carry-over of the effects into the next morning (besides, it's a strong anti-cholinergic, so any carry-over at all begins to defeat the purpose of things like nootropics). Melatonin induces longer periods of REM, so dreams are protracted and vivid, and one often wakes up in the middle of a dream to the alarm clock, still recalling the minute details of dreams. Generally, with a proper dose, I wake up feeling refreshed and well-rested. I make a point of not taking melatonin every night (although many people do, and there doesn't seem to be harm in doing so); as melatonin 'resets your clock' as pertains to sleep, it seems that the day after melatonin ingestion, my body begins telling me to go to sleep at about the same time without melatonin at all. This wears off in another day or two, though it's not the kind of thing you can perceive unless you relax and try to go to sleep.

I've tried diphenhydramine before but I am very sensitive to it. I can take 1/4 of a pill (they recommend 2 pills) and it knocks me right out. I seem to sleep well, but I am very groggy the next day.

I also cycle melatonin. Maybe take on Sunday and Monday nights and then take a break midweek. I'm currently experimenting with the dosage though 3mg seems to be most effective for me, but I think that is a little high.

leftside: Keep in mind that aniracetam is an anxiolytic, and seems to curb emotions in general. This may affect some of oxiracetam's positive effects on mood and motivation; I've never tried them together. Aniracetam also seems to increase focus, which in my case decreased piracetam's improvement of multi-tasking and multi-cognition. Just a thought.

I'm a software engineer so I like the focus of aniracetam. But, for the first week I will drop the aniracetam when I try the oxiracetam. The second week I will try them together.
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#22 LBGSHI

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

Actually I have been noticing a little bit of fog lately, but I thought that was due to less than great sleep the last few nights. Cheers for the tip. I'll add some citicoline that I have.


Alpha-GPC is a potent source of choline. I would recommend just adding another 300mg capsule of alpha-GPC, rather than introducing an additional supplement to your stack.
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#23 leftside

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

Actually I have been noticing a little bit of fog lately, but I thought that was due to less than great sleep the last few nights. Cheers for the tip. I'll add some citicoline that I have.


Alpha-GPC is a potent source of choline. I would recommend just adding another 300mg capsule of alpha-GPC, rather than introducing an additional supplement to your stack.

I've run out! I'll order some more :)

#24 lifebuddy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:36 AM

Actually I have been noticing a little bit of fog lately, but I thought that was due to less than great sleep the last few nights. Cheers for the tip. I'll add some citicoline that I have.


Alpha-GPC is a potent source of choline. I would recommend just adding another 300mg capsule of alpha-GPC, rather than introducing an additional supplement to your stack.


Agreed. Also, I have found that using nootropics means I have to get more sleep than before. Maybe it is because I am more aware of how my brain feels, or perhaps it is because I am working it harder.

#25 LBGSHI

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:25 AM

Also, I have found that using nootropics means I have to get more sleep than before. Maybe it is because I am more aware of how my brain feels, or perhaps it is because I am working it harder.


A reasonable conclusion; it's likely both, to varying degrees. I don't think I need more sleep while using nootropics, so much as desiring the proper quantity and quality of sleep, which didn't necessarily used to be the case (previously, I would sometimes skip proper sleep for far too many nights in a row) - and there's also the thought that I'd hate to waste good nootropics on an exhausted brain that won't benefit much anyway :) . As an added bonus, of course, getting good sleep helps your brain work properly as well, and allows you to take full advantage of your newly-augmented abilities.

To complete today's report:

The increased dose of oxiracetam - making the stack 800mg oxiracetam x2, 800mg piracetam, 300mg alpha-GPC x2, twice daily - significantly increased the positive effects of the stack (specifically, the oxiracetam-related effects of increased mental clarity, motivation/ambition, and improved general mood). I'll continue this dose, and continue reporting.

#26 LBGSHI

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

Hmm...I forgot to mention:

I'm a software engineer so I like the focus of aniracetam. But, for the first week I will drop the aniracetam when I try the oxiracetam. The second week I will try them together.


For those reading, this is an important point. The different 'racetams have different applications: for a software engineer, concentration may be paramount, and so aniracetam may be a very useful nootropic. The other 'racetams could be used alongside it, and still be beneficial in various ways, although occasionally they may step on one another's toes (piracetam improves the ability to multi-task, and someone taking piracetam may find that it becomes natural to engage in two or more totally separate, simultaneous trains of thought - yet if that same person were to add aniracetam to the stack, it may be discovered that multi-tasking ability has diminished in favor of improved single-minded concentration). As such, it's not always a case of "the more types of nootropics, the better", because there's more to consider than simply covering all bases. Still, as mentioned earlier, when I took both piracetam and aniracetam, although I noticed some decrease in multi-tasking ability (and a gentle numbing of emotional response), I did in fact still have a noticeably increased verbal fluency (piracetam) and considerably increased concentration capability (aniracetam).

As a network security engineer, I benefit more from the ability to multi-task and remain clear-headed during extreme mental duress, so piracetam and oxiracetam seem to work perfectly for me. However, should I come upon a time during which I'll require massive focus on a single task, I would certainly be up for aniracetam+oxiracetam (and probably cut out the piracetam for the moment). In fact, I should like to try that sometime just to observe the synergy.

As a side-note, while reading a book, instead of absorbing the information read, then pondering over it in more detail later (and cross-referencing it with other information already acquired), piracetam (and now, piracetam+oxiracetam to an even larger degree) has slowly provided me with the ability to do both at the same time. This is not something I've done intentionally, but something which has occurred inadvertently and unbeknownst to me, until it naturally became apparent. I suppose it's difficult to describe, and perhaps I've done a poor job of doing so, but it's quite a useful little ability.

#27 LBGSHI

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

Update:

Yesterday was day three of the double-dose of oxiracetam and alpha-GPC (800mg piracetam, 800mg oxiracetam x2, 300mg alpha-GPC x2, twice daily). This ended up being a fairly intense day at work, and my mind was taxed considerably for nearly the entire day without a break, save the ten minutes it took for me to grab lunch and bring it back to work (and eat it while working). Near the end of the work day, at about 3:30PM (I usually leave at 5:00PM), I began to feel a little brain fog creeping in, and found it difficult to concentrate on complex subjects. Three hypotheses came to mind:

1) This was a result of general fatigue due to lack of quality or quantity of sleep (I'd stayed up a little late the night before helping my kids re-arrange their bedrooms, and ended up with about 6 hours of sleep, and was still a little groggy upon waking);
2) This was a result of mental fatigue due to common burn-out (the intense work load);
3) This was a result of acetylcholine depletion, either due to prolonged use of a larger dose of oxiracetam, or prolonged, intense mental activity - or both.

As a test, I took 300 mg of alpha-GPC, making my total intake that day 900mg. About an hour later, the brain fog slightly lifted, but did not completely subside. I would conclude that the slight brain fog I experienced was due to a combination of all three of the above, and was primarily the result of intense mental exertion with little sleep the night before.

Last night I got relatively good sleep, and at least 7 hours of it (no melatonin, incidentally - I was sleepy enough to skip it). I feel quite good this morning, and my morning dose is in full swing. As before, the increased dose of oxiracetam and alpha-GPC definitely results in an increased experience of oxiracetam's effects.

#28 LBGSHI

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

Update:

After several days of my new, doubled oxiracetam dosage, I'm quite satisified with the results.

Having held off from centrophenoxine (and using alpha-GPC as a substitute) to allow my brain another week to recover from the extended centrophenoxine supplementation mentioned earlier, I tried introducing one 500mg capsule of centrophenoxine twice daily in place of two 600mg capsules of alpha-GPC twice daily, to my new stack. The effect was as expected - centrophenoxine covered acetylcholine as alpha-GPC did, and added a mild stimulant effect, which coupled with oxiracetam's motivation-augmenting effects very well. I'll begin taking centrophenoxine in place of alpha-GPC a couple of times per week, and perhaps eventually step that up to four times per week, but I've developed an appreciation for the potential for mental burn-out and premature daily sleepiness if centrophenoxine is taken continuously for more than a week or so. I have read reports of others using centrophenoxine continuously for years without perceiving any negative side-effects nor experiencing diminishment of positive side-effects, but I assume these are the exception, not the rule.

I'm considering trying sulbutiamine some time soon, but I want to spend some more time with this stack before I introduce a new supplement...and I'm still weighing pro's and con's of sulbutiamine.

#29 LBGSHI

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

Update:

Effects are still going strong with this stack (800mg piracetam, 800mg oxiracetam x2, 300mg alpha-GPC x2 OR 800mg centrophenoxine). As an experiment, I've cut out piracetam starting today. I'll post an update in a few days, or when a notable effect or lack of effect occurs.

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#30 pushpull

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

Hey man, interesting thread!

You mentioned anxiety: I'm not sure how severe your anxiety has been but I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the effect oxiracetam had on your anxiety. I started on Aniracetam but I'm looking into alternatives as I can't seem to find a working dosage. I have oxiracetam laying around but I've been a bit skeptical to taking it as certain people seem to report a raised anxiety level on it ?

Have you had any sort of depression symptoms on Alpha GPC ? Like you I took 2x300mg for a few days and started to feel quite depressed for no obvious reason. I've not noticed this on CDP Choline & Choline bitartrate.. so I'm wondering if I should try i.e. 150mg Alpha GPC instead or if I should stick to CDP Choline.




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