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Oxiracetam, Piracetam, and Centrophenoxine - questions and comments


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#31 LBGSHI

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

Hey man, interesting thread!

You mentioned anxiety: I'm not sure how severe your anxiety has been but I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the effect oxiracetam had on your anxiety. I started on Aniracetam but I'm looking into alternatives as I can't seem to find a working dosage. I have oxiracetam laying around but I've been a bit skeptical to taking it as certain people seem to report a raised anxiety level on it ?

Have you had any sort of depression symptoms on Alpha GPC ? Like you I took 2x300mg for a few days and started to feel quite depressed for no obvious reason. I've not noticed this on CDP Choline & Choline bitartrate.. so I'm wondering if I should try i.e. 150mg Alpha GPC instead or if I should stick to CDP Choline.


I've never really had a problem with anxiety; I was referring to standard, small amounts of anxiety one may experience in everyday life, and think nothing of. For example, "Hmm, this car is starting to veer a little too closely toward my lane...I hope it doesn't change lanes into my car", or "I wonder why my boss asked me to come speak to him in his office". While taking aniracetam, I basically didn't worry about anything, and I'm not even sure it was a good thing (in other words, I was prone to make decisions I would not normally make, because I had very few inhibitions aside from logical ones, and wasn't concerned in the least by such things as losing a job, angering other people, etc).

Oxiracetam has not presented any noticeable effect on anxiety, although it seems to have made me a little more motivated to accomplish tasks, and put me in a better mood in general, which may indirectly reduce anxiety. I suppose the increased motivation could manifest itself in the form of anxiety, but I don't think it would be problematic. In all, I would say that oxiracetam probably has a smaller chance of causing anxiety than a cup of coffee or a caffeinated soda.

I've never had any depression symptoms when taking alpha-GPC, though I've read that some people have. Whenever I've taken too much alpha-GPC, I've noticed a clenched-jaw feeling and mild, periodic muscular cramps. I've then scaled back my alpha-GPC intake, and the symptoms were gone within the same day.

While I've found alpha-GPC to be the best choline source for me (aside from, occasionally, centrophenoxine), I can't say for certain if it will be the best for you. I would definitely recommend that you try it at a lower dose, to observe effects...and also, that you try taking your 'racetams with no choline source at all, which seems to be fine for people with high natural choline intake (from food).

#32 Bwints

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

This entire thread is brilliant.

The way you are documenting and monitoring your dosage and experience is exactly what I had in mind for my introduction to these supplements.


In doing this, I don't intend to half ass it. Which means for me, buy-in on many levels is required. Diet, Exercise and balance are how Im approaching this. Which leads me to many questions, both diet and supplement oriented. I'm wanting to achieve as much synergistic benefit possible through natural sources.
From my pre-purchase research I've come to the conclusion that most of it is common sense diet wise - Spinach, Broccoli, Legumes, Asparagus, chicken, mushrooms, green leaf veggies, rice, eggs, beef.

( 1 ) Do you have any experience here you could share?

As for my approach to Nootropics themselves, I plan on introducing them one at a time in hopes of finding a suitable stack for my biochemistry.
Although I want to dive in headfirst and frolic, Im starting with Piracetam.


( 2 ) How long should I make my trial periods before I branch out and experiment with other supplements?
( 3 ) You get granular with the effects of each 'racetam' - ie Piracetam good for multi-tasking and maintaining multiple trains of thought. Based on your experience can you highlight what these are for; Piracetam, Aniracetam, Pramiracetam and Oxiracetam?
( 4 ) With an emphasis on the above, would 24 hours be enough to shift racetams to maximize on each strength? Ie. I want Piracetam 90% of the time due to requirement to manage multiple projects but one day I want to read through an entire book. Could I shift to Aniracetam that morning? The day before? to achieve the single-task focus its renowned for? Thoughts?
( 5 ) Do you think it would be doable to increase natural choline intake to avoid having to supplement? IE. Spinach, Eggs, Rice, Kale, Broc, Beef etc?

Appreciate any and all input!

Cheers,

B

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#33 LBGSHI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

This entire thread is brilliant.


Thanks. :)


From my pre-purchase research I've come to the conclusion that most of it is common sense diet wise - Spinach, Broccoli, Legumes, Asparagus, chicken, mushrooms, green leaf veggies, rice, eggs, beef.

( 1 ) Do you have any experience here you could share?


I haven't really looked into, or tried, augmenting my choline intake via diet. I imagine it would be something similar to taking choline bitartrate, but would not be as efficient as taking alpha-GPC or centrophenoxine.


As for my approach to Nootropics themselves, I plan on introducing them one at a time in hopes of finding a suitable stack for my biochemistry.
Although I want to dive in headfirst and frolic, Im starting with Piracetam.


Yep; it's important to take your time, and not change too many things at once, or you won't be sure which change caused which effect.


( 2 ) How long should I make my trial periods before I branch out and experiment with other supplements?


This depends on what you want to achieve, and what you want to determine. Most nootropic supplements should be at least somewhat apparent in their effects within the first few days. As such, a week may be sufficient time before testing a new supplement instead of, or alongside, your current stack. However, if you're interested in long-term effects, you could wait a month, a year, or longer. Reasonably, between a week and a month should be quite sufficient.


( 3 ) You get granular with the effects of each 'racetam' - ie Piracetam good for multi-tasking and maintaining multiple trains of thought. Based on your experience can you highlight what these are for; Piracetam, Aniracetam, Pramiracetam and Oxiracetam?


In my experience:

Piracetam - Improved multitasking; ability to carry multiple, simultaneous 'trains of thought'; ability to solve problems I was previously unable to solve (seemingly, due to improved creativity and altered analytical processes)

Aniracetam - Increased focus and single-minded concentration (whether desired or not, and at the cost of decreased multitasking ability); inhibition of anxiety (and a Spock-like dulling of all emotion, for better or worse, including a lack of empathy for others); increased vividity of color perception (I would catch myself staring at the leaves on a tree blowing in the wind, and find it mesmerizing)

Pramiracetam - I've never tried it.

Oxiracetam - Increased motivation and ambition to accomplish tasks (perhaps mildly increased energy, though this might just be due to increased desire to achieve); improved mood (not euphoria, just a sense of well-being and the desire to smile and take things in stride); increased interest in and appreciation for music; generally increased interest in almost everything - this is my favorite nootropic, and has been since I began taking it. Also, it seems to greatly inhibit the effects of alcohol, as I mentioned above (which, I later discovered, makes sense, given that it's a neuro-protectant which was proven to help mice survive poisons which killed mice that weren't given oxiracetam).


( 4 ) With an emphasis on the above, would 24 hours be enough to shift racetams to maximize on each strength? Ie. I want Piracetam 90% of the time due to requirement to manage multiple projects but one day I want to read through an entire book. Could I shift to Aniracetam that morning? The day before? to achieve the single-task focus its renowned for? Thoughts?


Unfortunately, I can't avoid being a little vague in answering this, because there are so many variables. My advice: look up the half-life of each supplement you're taking, and consider that, after that duration of time, the amount of the substance in question in your system has been halved; at twice that time, the amount is only 25% of what it was; at three times that time, it is only 12.5%; and so on. Depending on the potency of effect (subjectively), modulate the time you take Supplement A so that by the time you take Supplement B, you have a fairly insignificant amount of Supplement A still floating around in your system (perhaps, 12.5%). This will be different for each substance, and different for each person that takes a given substance...and different depending on how large a dose you take. If you take twice as much as your optimal dose of a given supplement (and your optimal dose is something you must discover), you might find that you get the best effect at about the same time it's hit its half-life (as in, it's finally dropped to 50% of its original amount in your brain). Incidentally, this would imply that you should decrease, perhaps by 50%, your normal dose.

That being said, I found that aniracetam seems to trump piracetam in terms of the dominant effect. When I took piracetam, whether I took aniracetam afterward or at the same time, I mostly felt the effects of aniracetam only. If this seems to occur in the same way for you, you might not need to worry about cessation of piracetam before aniracetam - but the opposite should then be meticulously planned, if necessary.


( 5 ) Do you think it would be doable to increase natural choline intake to avoid having to supplement? IE. Spinach, Eggs, Rice, Kale, Broc, Beef etc?


Although I don't have any personal experience in this regard, I think it is definitely possible, and a good idea to investigate. There are some people who don't seem to require any choline supplementation at all, and these people are likely receiving their choline from food. This will save you time and money (although both these gains could be a wash if you spend too much time and money working on the perfect choline diet).

Hopefully my responses were of some use. I've given a friend of mine a small batch of oxiracetam and alpha-GPC, and he's loving it. I did the same for another friend, and he's not sure if he's noticed a difference at all, other than a subjective feeling of increased lucidity (and as always, this could simply be placebo). This could be due to too much or not enough oxiracetam, too much or not enough alpha-GPC, or he could simply be a non-responder to oxiracetam (in which case, according to some people, he's likely to respond well to aniracetam). Nonetheless, I'd be happy to help someone improve their mental faculties.

Edited by LBGSHI, 11 December 2012 - 05:39 PM.

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#34 LBGSHI

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

Interesting. Quoting myself from another thread (after I looked into the matter a bit):

Oxiracetam has been shown to increase membrane-bound PKC (Protein-Kinase C), which is a family of protein kinases that affect a myriad of things, including neuronal excitation via 5-HT (serotonin). Serotonin levels directly effect the release of dopamine - http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2612120/ , although this effect is different across different areas of the brain (increasing serotonin may increase dopamine release in one area of the brain, decrease it in another, and not affect it at all in yet another).


It's seems that oxiracetam may be mildly increasing serotonin levels, resulting in its effects on positive mood, and possibly all of its effects, to varying degrees (although it certainly behaves differently than simple serotonin agonists).
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#35 Bwints

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

Love the response and the followup.

Im waiting, impatiently might I add, for my first round of Piracetam to come. It sounds like I'm better suited for an Oxi/Ani mix (alternating) but testing is certainly in order.

Once I start documenting I will post a link and hopefully we can have some cool talks about my intro into the world of nootropics.

Thanks again for all the details.

B

#36 LBGSHI

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Sounds good. Remember, piracetam is subtle, and it'll probably take a day or two to have a noticeable effect. Also, make sure you're actually using your mind during that period of time...sitting around on the couch and pondering things doesn't count :)

#37 pushpull

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:04 AM

my comment on oxiracetam, as someone with anxiety issues, is that I can most certainly see it can cause more anxiety. I've taken oxi 6-8 times or so by now, and on a good day with not too much stress I have had great benefits from it. On a day with meetings & stress at work I did not think it was a good combo (more anxiety than usual).

I have barely tried Pramiracetam, so I am not gonna compare those, but Oxiracetam makes you feel a lot more rushed in your mind than Piracetam does. This is pretty much what most noot people on anxiety boards report as well.

#38 LBGSHI

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

my comment on oxiracetam, as someone with anxiety issues, is that I can most certainly see it can cause more anxiety. I've taken oxi 6-8 times or so by now, and on a good day with not too much stress I have had great benefits from it. On a day with meetings & stress at work I did not think it was a good combo (more anxiety than usual).

I have barely tried Pramiracetam, so I am not gonna compare those, but Oxiracetam makes you feel a lot more rushed in your mind than Piracetam does. This is pretty much what most noot people on anxiety boards report as well.


I haven't experienced any issues with anxiety (on the contrary, I've been in a great mood since I started taking oxiracetam), however, as it does seem to increase my general energy and motivation, I could certainly see it as possible.

You mentioned that you "did not think it was a good combo", but never specified what combo you were referring to. What did you take with your oxiracetam? Perhaps it was another substance, or a combination of oxiracetam and another substance, that caused your anxiety...

#39 Bwints

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

Sounds good. Remember, piracetam is subtle, and it'll probably take a day or two to have a noticeable effect. Also, make sure you're actually using your mind during that period of time...sitting around on the couch and pondering things doesn't count :)


10-4. I suppose I never gave you my post for context - but there are a number of things I'm undertaking right now that are pushing the seal on focus and capacity. The biggest one is a new job for a marketing company and the position I'm in - there is no ceiling on growth. It also requires intense thought all day long (working 8-12 hour shifts daily) and even with a proper diet I can feel myself start fading at about 3pm and am no longer able to efficiently do what I wanna do.

Ontop of this - I have an increasing interest in programming (python, php, mysql) but just dont have the focus or motivation to continue plugging away after a long day. I know html, css already as I wanted to take a baby step in wrapping my head around syntax. In similar context, I've always had trouble staying focused on 1 task especially if it doesn't particularily interest me - so reading and learning certain things can be an undertaking.

Thus my interest in both Piracetam and Aniracetam. I'm required to be thinking on multiple levels when building marketing plans and fitting it in to overall strategies and on the other side of the coin if I want to sit down and hammer through a book or 20 tutorials on the weekend; the differences seem to fall into what you specified as the effects between the two.

my comment on oxiracetam, as someone with anxiety issues, is that I can most certainly see it can cause more anxiety. I've taken oxi 6-8 times or so by now, and on a good day with not too much stress I have had great benefits from it. On a day with meetings & stress at work I did not think it was a good combo (more anxiety than usual).

I have barely tried Pramiracetam, so I am not gonna compare those, but Oxiracetam makes you feel a lot more rushed in your mind than Piracetam does. This is pretty much what most noot people on anxiety boards report as well.


Agree with LGB on this note - tough to point the finger at just one with so many elements involved. Supplements, diet or substances (cigarettes, alcohol, drugs) could be the culprit or a combination of any of them. If you've cylced out Oxi and found it was relieved - try stopping the other supps and introducing Oxi back in.

Hope your enjoying the results either waY!

#40 LBGSHI

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:12 PM

10-4. I suppose I never gave you my post for context - but there are a number of things I'm undertaking right now that are pushing the seal on focus and capacity. The biggest one is a new job for a marketing company and the position I'm in - there is no ceiling on growth. It also requires intense thought all day long (working 8-12 hour shifts daily) and even with a proper diet I can feel myself start fading at about 3pm and am no longer able to efficiently do what I wanna do.


I would definitely recommend oxiracetam in that case. It has immensely improved my ability to endure fairly intense, long-duration mental activity. In this regard, I have spaced out my oxiracetam throughout the day (as mentioned above), but I've also increased my dosage considerably (as mentioned above).

#41 Bwints

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

10-4. I suppose I never gave you my post for context - but there are a number of things I'm undertaking right now that are pushing the seal on focus and capacity. The biggest one is a new job for a marketing company and the position I'm in - there is no ceiling on growth. It also requires intense thought all day long (working 8-12 hour shifts daily) and even with a proper diet I can feel myself start fading at about 3pm and am no longer able to efficiently do what I wanna do.


I would definitely recommend oxiracetam in that case. It has immensely improved my ability to endure fairly intense, long-duration mental activity. In this regard, I have spaced out my oxiracetam throughout the day (as mentioned above), but I've also increased my dosage considerably (as mentioned above).


figured id follow up and point you towards my post - http://www.longecity...og/#entry557149

I enjoyed the way you put together your log and would appreciate your opinion/input on what i've got going on!

Cheers,

B

#42 LBGSHI

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

10-4. I suppose I never gave you my post for context - but there are a number of things I'm undertaking right now that are pushing the seal on focus and capacity. The biggest one is a new job for a marketing company and the position I'm in - there is no ceiling on growth. It also requires intense thought all day long (working 8-12 hour shifts daily) and even with a proper diet I can feel myself start fading at about 3pm and am no longer able to efficiently do what I wanna do.


I would definitely recommend oxiracetam in that case. It has immensely improved my ability to endure fairly intense, long-duration mental activity. In this regard, I have spaced out my oxiracetam throughout the day (as mentioned above), but I've also increased my dosage considerably (as mentioned above).


figured id follow up and point you towards my post - http://www.longecity...og/#entry557149

I enjoyed the way you put together your log and would appreciate your opinion/input on what i've got going on!

Cheers,

B


Thanks. I've replied to your thread.

As an update, after discovering that the racetams deplete glutamate (by using an increased amount as a neurotransmitter), I began supplementing glutamic acid (which becomes glutamate in the body), at 500mg three times per day, with yet again an increase in the intensity of oxiracetam's effects. If you're concerned about safety questions related to glutamate overdose, read the thread I created: http://www.longecity...-get-technical/

I've also reduced my alpha-GPC dose from 300mg x2 (600mg) to one 300mg capsule. This brings my current stack to:

Oxiracetam (1600mg)
Centrophenoxine (800mg) or alpha-GPC (300mg) [centrophenoxine is cycled out once a week for a couple of days, as it does possess mildly stimulating properties and seems to eventually cause burnout)
Glutamic Acid (500mg)

I take the above stack three times daily: Early morning (~7:00 AM), Late Morning (~11:00 AM), Late Afternoon (~3:00 PM).

As a side-note, for the past two days I've been taking 3000mg of glycine before sleeping at night, as promoted in (among others) this thread: http://www.longecity...post__p__294150

...and as indicated by this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3328957/

...and this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22293292

...and others. Although I'm only two days in, I've noticed a considerable improvement in the quality of my sleep. Glycine is not a sedative, and did not make me want to sleep like melatonin does, but once I attempted to sleep, I was out in a few minutes and stayed asleep throughout the night, waking to feel refreshed and well rested. This effect lasted throughout the day. I'll keep posting updates on glycine's effect in this thread, as it obviously bears on how effective my nootropic stack is, especially subjectively.

Edited by LBGSHI, 09 January 2013 - 05:45 PM.


#43 LBGSHI

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:02 PM

Update:

I'm still using the same stack:

Oxiracetam (1600mg)
Centrophenoxine (800mg) or alpha-GPC (300mg) [centrophenoxine is cycled out once a week for a couple of days, as it does possess mildly stimulating properties and seems to eventually cause burnout)
Glutamic Acid (500mg)

I take the above stack three times daily: Early morning (~7:00 AM), Late Morning (~11:00 AM), Late Afternoon (~3:00 PM).


...(which is still working wonders) and still taking 3000mg of glycine an hour before bed. For the past three nights, I've reintroduced melatonin before bed, taking it alongside glycine. The results are: quicker onset of sleep (melatonin), and zero instances of waking during the night (glycine). Generally (without glycine), I wake two to three times per night, for one reason or another, then drift back to sleep, but since supplementing 3000mg of glycine, this has not occurred. I use an Android app called Sleep As Android, which monitors my movement and noise to determine sleep phase and sleep activity; according to Sleep As Android, my deep sleep has increased from an average of ~40% of my total sleep to an average of ~70% since I began taking glycine. This has resulted in feeling more refreshed and well-rested after sleeping, although this has only occurred when I actually managed to go to sleep early enough (I've always tended to be occupied with too many interesting things to want to sleep, ever) - which is where melatonin comes in, promoting a comfortable sleepiness about 45 minutes after ingestion.

Edited by LBGSHI, 16 January 2013 - 10:03 PM.


#44 NeuroGeneration

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 02:31 PM

@LBGSHI - are you still stacking? How has it worked out for you? Any long-term effects, beyond the acute effects that you noticed? I'm overall curious about what you've learned over the past year with nootropics. Also, when you said that you "take the above stack three times daily", you're taking 4,800mg of oxiracetam and 2400mg of centrophenoxine?



#45 LBGSHI

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 11:58 PM

@LBGSHI - are you still stacking? How has it worked out for you? Any long-term effects, beyond the acute effects that you noticed? I'm overall curious about what you've learned over the past year with nootropics. Also, when you said that you "take the above stack three times daily", you're taking 4,800mg of oxiracetam and 2400mg of centrophenoxine?

 

Starting almost three months ago, I began an experiment with L-Tyrosine(500mg)+B6(100mg) in the morning and 5-HTP(50mg) in the afternoon, to see how indirectly increasing availability of dopamine and serotonin (at sufficiently separated parts of the day) would affect my intellectual and emotional state. In order to avoid skewing the experiment, I halted all other nootropics two weeks prior. I'm nearly at the end of the three months I allotted, and I've been quite pleased with the effects (a mild increase in alertness and awareness in the first half of the day, and a general feeling of contentment in the evenings, and seemingly to some extent into the next morning and day). I haven't noticed a significant curbing of the effects of either over time, I'm not overly sleepy (though I do take 5-HTP at about 5PM and sleep about 10PM, so any excess melatonin may just be lost in the mix), and my concentration and retention are either improved, or I have a strong placebo effect going. Despite the fact that I did have some fairly exhausting work-related events during this time period which significantly threw off my sleep cycle for some time, and thus I'm tempted to run this experiment for another 30 days, I may instead reintroduce my previous (nootropic) stack alongside these supplements to see how they work in tandem. I'm a little concerned that oxiracetam's interaction with protein kinase C may have a negative effect on my new supplements, but I believe the chances are quite small that it will be a dangerous one. I've intentionally kept the dosages, particularly that of 5-HTP, low until I determine my tolerances.

 

Given the above, I've also had yet another opportunity to experience the effects of halting my previous supplement stack, and I'm yet again not disappointed. From my perspective, I see little diminution of my abilities, aside from an overall dwindling of the intense motivation bestowed upon me by oxiracetam. This also may have been affected by 5-HTP and its concomitant increase in serotonin.

 

Aside from that, I haven't studied or otherwise learned anything significant related to nootropics, nor have I tried anything new in the past year or so.

 

In answer to your question about my previous daily total dosages, yes, you noted them correctly. For a time before I ceased the stack you're referring to, I resorted to a single iteration of the stack in the morning only, and this was a tradeoff experiment: the effects diminished before the end of my work day, which was unfortunate; however, I was able to relax in the evenings and fall asleep more easily without a sleep stack. I'll probably resume this modified version of my previous regimen when I reintroduce nootropics to my stack, or perhaps take one last dose of oxiracetam and a choline source before lunch.


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#46 NeuroGeneration

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for your reply. Given your comment, "I've also had yet another opportunity to experience the effects of halting my previous supplement stack, and I'm yet again not disappointed. From my perspective, I see little diminution of my abilities, aside from an overall dwindling of the intense motivation bestowed upon me by oxiracetam.", how likely do you think it is that it was either 1) a placebo effect, 2) you've improved your neuro function for the long-term / permanently, or 3) something else altogether? Any objective tests, or even solid subjective information (for example, journal entries before and after your racetam / centro experiences, that can tell a clear story?

 

I'm on day 4 of centro, about 1,200mg /day, and I'm feeling great. I don't respond well to DMAE, ALCAR or Citicholine, and only moderately well to CDP. I'm also experimenting with oxi for the first time, and stacking it with noopept. I'll let you know what I find after enough time has passed :)

 

Thanks again!






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