7 replies to this topic

[OneScrewLoose]

I have heard this through hearsay but would like some verification. Could someone with high free testosterone have plenty of excess to be converting that to estrogen? Anyone got any papers on this?

[JohnD60]

I have heard this through hearsay but would like some verification. Could someone with high free testosterone have plenty of excess to be converting that to estrogen? Anyone got any papers on this?

Yes. I am assuming you are speaking of men. It is basic hormone chemistry, you are not likely to find any recent confirmation studies of it since it is so widely accepted. At the extreme end of the spectrum, athletes and body builders injecting testosterone and steroids, conversion is the rule, that is why they take aromatase inhibitors to prevent the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Much less common in typical men, but it does happen, and they are prescribed aromatase inhibitors also. Symptoms are reduced libido, puffy nipples, irritability. Untreated it often results in gyno, and a host of adverse long term health effects.

[OneScrewLoose]

I just need some literature on this to justify an estrogen blood test to my doc. Doesn't have to be too recent.

[chung_pao]

Yes, absolutely.
That is why bodybuilders use aromatase inhibitors along with their supplemented testosterone; inhibitors of the enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen.
Aromatase inhibitors are also prescribed along with testosterone replacement therapy to men, to keep them from developing feminine traits.

Every time I've (unsuccessfully) experimented with ingesting hormones to elevate testosterone it has resulted in increased feminine traits. Such as adiposity around nipples, also known as gynecomastia.

Just check http://en.wikipedia....atase_inhibitor and view the references; or do your own search for "androgen elevated estrogens men" or something similar.

Edit: To slow.

Edited by chung_pao, 07 December 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[nowayout]

Are you having any symptoms such as gynecomastia? If not, I wouldn't bother. Estrogen tests are notoriously unreliable and, no matter what they say on the bodybuilding boards, there is no single ideal estrogen level, since different men function well at different estrogen levels. Some actually need estrogen to be quite high to feel good, others much lower.

[OneScrewLoose]

Can you link me to some info on them being unreliable?

[npcomplete]

I just need some literature on this to justify an estrogen blood test to my doc. Doesn't have to be too recent.

Here is a paper that might help from "The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism", full article link + relevant paragraph:

http://jcem.endojour.../86/6/2380.long

Gynecomastia is a benign complication of androgen supplementation, perhaps more frequent in elderly obese men than in young hypogonadal men. It is the consequence of the aromatization of T into estradiol in peripheral fat and muscle tissue.

It might help to show the doc this image from wikipedia... although he may discount it because it is from wikipedia:

http://upload.wikime...genesis.svg.png


taken from this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid

It really does take some preparation to get a doctor to ask for the test, especially if you have low visceral fat. One of the things I do in general is to make it sound like it is the doctor's idea to do the test... they LOVE that. Wander in with some papers, then ask questions (that you really know the answer to), like "I was trying to understand this paper, and it sounds like I should be concerned blah blah blah ".

I routinely get advanced tests using this technique. The one thing a doctor hates more than fighting with insurance is dealing with malpractice litigation (I am not remotely litigious). It is hard for a doctor to say no to a patient that is concerned, provides evidence that a test is reasonable and inline with current medical practices, and suggests the test consistent with the patient history. The doctor knows that is a litigation risk if things go wrong. Connect the dots for them using your medical history, then talk about your concerns, then suggest a test. Also, get to know both the insurance diagnostic/symptom codes, and the lab test order numbers.

I have never had a doctor say no to a suggested "unusual" test, although it sometimes takes effort and persistence... although I had a GP once ask what homocysteine was - and then ordered the test. They are more open once you have built a relationship.

[nowayout]

I don't think that will help him because he is not on androgen therapy.