56 replies to this topic

[SarahVaughter]

Revgenetics' C60-in-oil has been rumored to use ultrasonic techiques to super-quickly dissolve the C60 into the oil (2000 x faster than stirring, according to Anthony Loera himself) and I think that is a really bad thing to do, since it is possible that the resulting product is of lesser quality than the product used in the Baathi study.

Has anyone purchased Revgenetics' C60 product already and tried it? Is there a noticeable difference in color, taste or smell with C60 from other vendors?

I am interested, because if the experts here think that Revgenetics C60-in-EVOO "quick production" method is sound (pun intended), we are also considering using it. Although it's now too late anyway, since we've invested in the stirrers already. But perhaps it would make contamination with microorganisms during production less likely. So it is in principle an interesting production method, albeit pretty unethical not to mention it to the customers, since the product may well be of inferior quality.

[Anthony_Loera]

Sarah, our proprietary process is not unethical. It's called a trade secret, and whatever or however it is done... we will maintain the secret simply because we don't want people like yourself copying our methods.

Now, what really is unethical is that your manufacturing practices seemed to have produce fungus in your products.
I have yet to see anyone else with manufacturing issues such as yours, it is recorded by Trance here on this board:

 Sarah-Vaughter-C60-Fungus.Png   1013.37K   2 downloads


This is likely the reason your company can't register as an FDA facility for safety, or has an ISO certs in place. While you work with rumor and defamation, I actually provide facts that your own company has produced a product without the quality control mechanisms provided by cGMP, the FDA, and ISO standards in place to make it safe. This is a fact. Please provide your FDA registration so that I can be corrected.

What is a little fungus, you may ask? See my opinion piece below.

A


Some people may not like my clickwrap argument to protect my copyrighted material. They simply believe it goes too far. But they do like that I test my products thoroughly and comply with industry and FDA standards here in the USA. If I sold a bad "Batch" I would be held up to those standards.... but If you sold someone a bad "batch" and they got fungal meningitis and had a stroke, how would they sue you all the way in Switzerland? Didn't you say it was impossible to sue you and get money because your funds are stashed in a protected "offshore account"? I am surprised that does not send red flags to everyone here.

See my opinion piece below.
==============================================================================================================
The CDC and FDA Responds To Fungal Meningitis Outbreak Linked To Pharmaceutical Manufacturing:
(By Anthony Loera)

By October 10th of 2012, 12 people were dead and nearly 120 sickened by a fungal meningitis outbreak throughout several states of the United States. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) had found that the rare outbreak was not caused by natural causes, but that the outbreak was linked to the New England Compounding Center (NECC) manufacture and contamination of medication. The FDA moved in to pull vials from the manufacturing pharma that showed signs of fungus for the CDC to test the rare form of fungal meningitis that had already claimed lives and sickened so many. As the FDA helped the CDC, the NECC recalled three batches and surrendered their license to manufacture the drugs.

In October 21, a member at a popular internet forum reported that C60 Olive Oil purchased from a small company in Switzerland showed fungal contamination in the product, and produced a picture of the contaminated product. No reported deaths or sickness has been reported. The owner of the small company apologized. The small company in Switzerand does not use FDA cGMP standards of manufacturing, is not ISO certified, is not registered as a drug or nutraceutical company in the US with the FDA or Switzerland.

In Our Early October 8th Interview with Professor Fathi Moussa in Paris France, we asked him if he would be interested to be associated with any C60 Olive Oil product made by a company. In our conversation with him, he stated that he did not want to be associated directly with any product as he could assure that any company could manufacture C60 Olive Oil without cutting corners. Most C60 that is produced is purified using chemicals that could be harmful, so proper cleaning of the chemicals is required and cleanliness needs to be maintained. His words appeared a bit prophetic, as it was only close to 13 days later, that the story of the contaminated C60 Olive Oil from Switzerland surfaced in a forum dedicated to C60.

The FDA and the CDC: There is a continuing debate as to whether the FDA has prevented new drugs from being provided that could save lives, because they are overly cautious or have too many manufacturing rules. The October Fungal Meningitis outbreak linked to pharmaceutical manufacturing shows us that even companies who are registered properly with the FDA, can have major manufacturing issues and could cause deaths around the country. Many in the United States may scoff at the rules and regulations that the FDA makes local United States manufacturers adhere to, but without these safety standards for local manufacturers, many United States citizens run the risk of using vitamins, supplements, drugs, or cosmetics that could make them sick or cause death. While our FDA system and rules may not the easiest or the best... they still provide Good Procedures that must be followed to avoid contamination in products, like the fungus reported.

What recourse would the victims have had, should the strokes caused by the fungal meningitis had been caused by a small shop in another country that doesn't follow good manufacturing practices? We ask you to consider that question, before purchasing a new supplement from a company outside of the United States.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 December 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

There is no evidence whatsoever for your public claim that we sold a product with fungus inside, and we have email confirmation from that customer that he only noticed it after he had the bottle opened for quite some time. But we of course assumed responsibility, refunded him and sent several replacement bottles. Olive oil is a natural product and of thousands of bottles sold, the only customer who ever complained of fungus was that customer you referred to.

Your public claim that we sold a contaminated product constitutes in our opinion aggravated libel (libel by a competitor with intent to do financial harm) and we have evidence that it has been read in the UK. We will instruct a UK attorney to advise us on the possibility to both Anthony Loera as well as Revgenetics in the UK for agravated libel, libel with intent to financially harm a competitor.

Since your libel has been read in the UK, the matter can be brought before a British court. As you know, UK libel laws are the strictest in the world and allow for the seeking of severe penalties as well as substantial damages, both for loss of revenue as well as loss of reputation.

We are constantly improving our production processes and raw material quality, as can be read in this article I wrote a few hours ago, just before you made your libelous claim:

http://c60antiaging....and-production/

(The article documents how we have sourced Cretan EVOO)

I add that your offense is punishable with a three year prison sentence in Switzerland:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Defamation
Switzerland

In Switzerland, the crime of "calumny" is punished with a maximum term of three years in prison, or with a fine of at least 30 days-fine, according to Article 174-2 of the Swiss Criminal Code. There is calumny when the offender knows the falsity of his/her allegations and intentionally looks to ruin the reputation of one's victim (see Articles 174-1 and 174-2).^[80]

We may seek both damages in a UK court and when we have received the funds, a Europol arrest warrant to get you in front of a Swiss Judge. I advise you never to travel to Europe again. That may not help you however - there is an extradition treaty between the US and Switzerland:

http://international...switzerland.pdf

Edited by SarahVaughter, 20 December 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

I ask the moderators to preserve this thread as evidence.

[Anthony_Loera]

Sarah,

Trance provided the picture, I didn't.
He stated it had fungus, I didn't.
You apologized, and assumed responsibility.

You even stated that you would change your manufacturing methods to trance.
If you didn't believe it was your company or your methods that caused this issue, why would you state you would change your manufacturing methods? Out of the goodness of your heart?

Did you change your manufacturing practices, or did you lie to Trance?

A

[SarahVaughter]

This thread contains in my opinion evidence to implicate Anthony Loera / Revgenetics in criminal libel, so I am respectfully requesting the moderators to preserve it as evidence.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 20 December 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[trance]

Well, in all fairness, as I mentioned in my initial messages about finding the fungus in the C60 olive oil, I could possibly have self-contaminated it in some manner.  On the other side of the coin, any number of things could have happened: contamination at the source, bottles left open to the air for an extended period before filling, heated transport situation, manufacturing process irregularities as Anthony alludes, etc.

I still don't think I self-contaminated it, as I was very careful not to leave the bottle open any longer than to place a dropper full of C60oo on a plastic spoon each time, but I can't rule that out 100% that I didn't cause or source the contamination -- especially to the point of making it the subject of an FDA letter -- but then again I have no monetary or economic interests in C60 products nor any competitors I'm trying to vanquish either.  

I didn't notice the growth in the olive oil until a couple of weeks after initially opening and using it.  As a history, I had a bottle from another manufacturer that I used the first month.  Sarah's product was 2-3 weeks in transit, and then it sat in a dark cool closet, unopened & sealed for another 2-3 weeks before I started using it.  I never examined the contents of the C60oo solution from a back light source prior to that time unfortunately; I didn't think I had to of course.  Only when I noticed the green-black spots of mold in the dropper tube after using it for a couple of weeks did I take a more careful look at the inside of the bottle, where there were clumps of growth.  I still have the bottle and unused portion.

Using my own produced C60oo for a few months now, in a far less careful manner dosing than I initially used the other two commercial products, I've experienced no similar fungal growths in my current 'home-grown' supplies, for whatever that's worth.   And I've had bottles of olive oil for general cooking purposes sitting around for months, if not years (probably not a good thing, but still...) in a sometimes warmer than average kitchen that have never shown any contaminated growths in them.

And to state again, and to be perfectly clear, Sarah made sure I was happily remedied with a replacement and a refund.

[Anthony_Loera]

What is wrong Sarah, can't answer the question?

Did you change your manufacturing techniques like you told trance you would, or did you lie to trance?

A

[Anthony_Loera]

I understand Trance, I am glad Sarah took responsibility for the issue.

But to all folks here, I suggest a DIY approach like trance. As he didn't have issues with fungus when he did it on his own. It appears the only issue that appeared was when a third party provided the C60 Olive Oil.

A

[SarahVaughter]

@Anthony Loera / Revgenetics:

I see that you removed the libel by editing your posting. However, we preserved various originals, as screen captures and as saved HTML pages from various IP addresses in various countries by various witnesses. The original libel was:

"Now, what really is unethical is that your manufacturing practices have produce fungus in your products.
I have yet to see anyone else with manufacturing issues such as yours, it is recorded by Trance here on this board:"

Edited by SarahVaughter, 20 December 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

You still haven't answered the question.
Did you change your manufacturing techniques like you told trance you would, or did you lie to trance?

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 December 2012 - 10:50 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

trance, on 20 December 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Well, in all fairness, as I mentioned in my initial messages about finding the fungus in the C60 olive oil, I could possibly have self-contaminated it in some manner.  On the other side of the coin, any number of things could have happened: contamination at the source, bottles left open to the air for an extended period before filling, heated transport situation, manufacturing process irregularities as Anthony alludes, etc.

I still don't think I self-contaminated it, as I was very careful not to leave the bottle open any longer than to place a dropper full of C60oo on a plastic spoon each time, but I can't rule that out 100% that I didn't cause or source the contamination -- especially to the point of making it the subject of an FDA letter -- but then again I have no monetary or economic interests in C60 products nor any competitors I'm trying to vanquish either.  

I didn't notice the growth in the olive oil until a couple of weeks after initially opening and using it.  As a history, I had a bottle from another manufacturer that I used the first month.  Sarah's product was 2-3 weeks in transit, and then it sat in a dark cool closet, unopened & sealed for another 2-3 weeks before I started using it.  I never examined the contents of the C60oo solution from a back light source prior to that time unfortunately; I didn't think I had to of course.  Only when I noticed the green-black spots of mold in the dropper tube after using it for a couple of weeks did I take a more careful look at the inside of the bottle, where there were clumps of growth.  I still have the bottle and unused portion.

Using my own produced C60oo for a few months now, in a far less careful manner dosing than I initially used the other two commercial products, I've experienced no similar fungal growths in my current 'home-grown' supplies, for whatever that's worth.   And I've had bottles of olive oil for general cooking purposes sitting around for months, if not years (probably not a good thing, but still...) in a sometimes warmer than average kitchen that have never shown any contaminated growths in them.

And to state again, and to be perfectly clear, Sarah made sure I was happily remedied with a replacement and a refund.

Trance, I am glad Sarah replaced the C60. But she did mentione she was going to change her manufacturing methods and that made you feel like she would be making a "better" product because of her statement.

I believe that is what you posted, correct me if I am wrong please.

A

[SarahVaughter]

We are constantly changing and improving our manufacturing methods. It started with a magnetic stirrer, then an overhead stirrer, then stirring in a vessel under a protective atmosphere, and soon we'll use Cretan extra virgin olive oil as explained in the link I posted. We are not going to use pasteurization or adding preservatives, and we think that fungal growth in less than 0.1% of sold bottles that used the non-protective atmosphere is actually a result to be proud of, showing that we worked near-sterile in > 99.9% of bottles.

Also, one mixing bottle used to be 3.5 litres. That means if one bottle has a fungus, 69 more must have that fungus as well. Yet, we did not get dozens more complaints. In fact we got zero further complaints, in spite of the fact that several people keep shouting "fungus" from the rooftops here.

Again, we are experiencing growth and we're constantly upgrading our production methods. Initially, a lab worker, wearing gloves and a hair net, poured the oil into the bottles. Now we use a Poulten & Graf OPTIFIX dispenser. Us upgrading our methods is not an admission of guilt of supplying a contaminated product.

We think this is a clear case of criminal defamation, and we reserve the right to seek remedy in European courts.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 20 December 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[trance]

Anthony_Loera, on 20 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Trance, I am glad Sarah replaced the C60. But she did mentione she was going to change her manufacturing methods and that made you feel like she would be making a "better" product because of her statement.

I believe that is what you posted, correct me if I am wrong please.

A

She mentioned she was going to change the manufacturing process ... sterilizing the bottles & stirring under an inert atmosphere.

I had no "feelings" on whether it was a better product or not though.

I've given all my facts.  I'm bowing out of y'all's squabble now.

[Anthony_Loera]

SarahVaughter, on 20 December 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

We are constantly changing and improving our manufacturing methods. It started with a magnetic stirrer, then an overhead stirrer, then stirring in a vessel under a protective atmosphere, and soon we'll use Cretan extra virgin olive oil as explained in the link I posted. We are not going to use pasteurization or adding preservatives, and we think that fungal growth in less than 0.1% of sold bottles that used the non-protective atmosphere is actually a result to be proud of, showing that we worked near-sterile in > 99.9% of bottles.

Also, one mixing bottle used to be 3.5 litres. That means if one bottle has a fungus, 69 more must have that fungus as well. Yet, we did not get dozens more complaints. In fact we got zero further complaints, in spite of the fact that several people keep shouting "fungus" from the rooftops here.

Ok,

so you did have to change your manufacturing process after Trance had the issue.
It sounds to me like you felt your manufacturing was responsible for the issue according to posts here on this board.

If you felt responsible to the point of changing manufacturing methods, why should I be denied to state those same feelings about your methods as well? You felt responsible, you changed manufacturing methods.

I also believe you are responsible, namely because of the change in manufacturing methods and adding what you call "A protective atmosphere" to address that very specific issue. Why else, would you take that step?

I don't see any other reason, unless you find other problems that you haven't told us about?
A good explanation could clear this up, do you mind providing one?

A

trance, on 20 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Anthony_Loera, on 20 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Trance, I am glad Sarah replaced the C60. But she did mentione she was going to change her manufacturing methods and that made you feel like she would be making a "better" product because of her statement.

I believe that is what you posted, correct me if I am wrong please.

A

She mentioned she was going to change the manufacturing process ... sterilizing the bottles & stirring under an inert atmosphere.

I had no "feelings" on whether it was a better product or not though.

I've given all my facts.  I'm bowing out of y'all's squabble now.

Yes... this is the original quote provided by Trance:

Quote

She was just as concerned about the mold as I was, and in one of her correspondences that we had, she
stated:

"We will make sure that this can't happen anymore in the future by amending our production process
(stirring under an inert atmosphere and sterilization of the bottles). We now have suufienct [sic] turnover
to warrant the extra expense."

I'm happy with her attention to this matter, and feel her product is probably better now because of it.

Thank you Trance,

Sorry to bring you into this. However, I like accuracy of the original post.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 December 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[shadowhawk]

SarahVaughter, on 08 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Revgenetics' C60-in-oil has been rumored to use ultrasonic techiques to super-quickly dissolve the C60 into the oil (2000 x faster than stirring, according to Anthony Loera himself) and I think that is a really bad thing to do, since it is possible that the resulting product is of lesser quality than the product used in the Baathi study.

Has anyone purchased Revgenetics' C60 product already and tried it? Is there a noticeable difference in color, taste or smell with C60 from other vendors?

I am interested, because if the experts here think that Revgenetics C60-in-EVOO "quick production" method is sound (pun intended), we are also considering using it. Although it's now too late anyway, since we've invested in the stirrers already. But perhaps it would make contamination with microorganisms during production less likely. So it is in principle an interesting production method, albeit pretty unethical not to mention it to the customers, since the product may well be of inferior quality.

I have bought C-60 from both you and RevGenetics.  Both were of the same color and tasted like olive oil.  The only difference I could tell was in quantity, where RevGenetics wins out.

I have followed Anthony for quite some time and buy from him.  He sells a quality product and I see no reason to question him.

We are all interested in health and extending life.  This is an interesting place for those interests.  Good for anyone who wants to make a living helping do that.  I recommend RevGenetics and enjoyed your product as well.

Peace

[Kevnzworld]

When it's all said and done, nobody's going to spend the money to fight these battles in court.  I've never seen so much postering , bluffing and bravado over what amounts to nothing in my life.  
If there's anything to be gained by this, we can all feel assured that both SV and Revgenetics are exercising great care in their C60 OO manufacturing.  Certainly better than most of the DIY people at home.

[Anthony_Loera]

Kevnzworld, on 20 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

If there's anything to be gained by this, we can all feel assured that both SV and Revgenetics are exercising great care in their C60 OO manufacturing.  Certainly better than most of the DIY people at home.

That's probably true Kevnzworld,

I do hope when C60 is made into an FDA approved product, the folks that worked hard to get things right from the beginning really benefit from this ordeal. For now, there is little to gain from a product that cannot be sold to the general population, but only to researchers.


Again, if you are a DIY kind of guy, (or gal)... then I would prefer for you to try your hand at making your own first.
=====================================================================================
1- Buy some C60 from one of the sources on this c60 source webpage or simply go to SES and buy a single gram for $115 that you can dissolve in about 1.3 liters of oil :

2- Then go buy the best olive oil you can find...

3- Try your hand at using a mortar and pestle like niner does... to grind it down a bit, before adding it to the oil, then shake it daily, until it turns deep red. Remember, you can skip the centrifuge unless you are publishing a study to a prestigious journal.

4- You can filter your home made stuff, or use a millipore filter (found at the bottom of the page). On the other hand, forget the filter... (no worries according to Prof Fathi if you do.)

5- See what others are doing, and their experience:
http://www.longecity.../415-c60health/

Yes, the money you will save will be huge of course, and you don't have to go to RevGenetics or Sarah's site. I figure, you would only go to the sites if you didn't have time to make this on your own.
=====================================================================================

Time, after all, is more precious than money in my book.
Some of us, really prefer to spend time on more important things.

 Merry-Christmas-Longecity.png   53.99K   8 downloads

Merry Christmas Everyone.


A

[SarahVaughter]

One last remark about the allegations of us selling C60-in-oil with fungus: The fungus on the photograph is on the inside of the dropper pipette. These are the facts:

- We sold thousands of product bottles, only one single one "had fungus", as the photo in this thread testifies. No other complaints. If one mixing bottle would have been fungally contaminated, a total of 70 bottles would have had fungus.

- The fungus in this bottle is most prominently visible in the dropper pipette, but was not noticed until after weeks after opening and use.
   That means that the fungus developed after opening. Esp. because it is exactly the pipette that comes into contact with the outside world, i.e. it touches the skin or the contents of a glass or a salad etc. sometimes. Or even just the outside air, where spores float around.

Our dispatch person nowadays shakes every bottle before dispatching and holds it against the light. She has been using some bottles from our oldest batches to give to her dog. We gave her the bottles because they were soiled by oil from a cracked bottle during transport. ZERO of those bottles have any fungus as of today, half a year after their production.  And ZERO bottles of the first production runs that we are using ourselves have fungus either. Not the slightest hint of it.

As to suing or not suing and the money, time and emotional energy involved in it:

We certainly have sufficient funds available to sue Mr. Anthony Loera and/or Revgenetics. We had his company examined, and our attorney told us his business turnover (or profit, I forgot) was half a million USD/year, last year. That is not so much. We have a much higher yearly turnover/profit, and we currently have so much money in the bank that we are at this moment, just before the new year, feverishly looking for ways to spend it, because all money left in our account on Jan 1, 2013 will be taxed. At this stage we are facing a decision, shall we invest in physical gold bars (vs. gold in an an investment acct.) or shall we sue Mr. Loera, that's basically the situation, since we do not know at this point what else to invest in. We have just launched our own home brand of dermarollers, we stocked up on all we needed, we totally innovated our C60 production process, so now it's a question what to do with the excess money.

Just as Mr, Loera announced he was going to sue us for 8 million dollars because we were sent some vidcaps that violated an alleged clickwrap "agreement" that he claims we signed, we are now harassing our attorney in these festive days to advise us what he thinks the outcome will be, suing Revgenetics for criminal slander (knowingly spreading malicious lies with intent to do financial harm to a competitor). It is a difficult decision, and we'll have to make it before the end of the period between Christmas and New Year's Eve. This is now the second time Anthony Loera defames our company - it has to stop.

Update: Our lawyer just told us that we have to get established that Mr. Loera knew of our initial response on these forums, where we explained our position on the alleged fungal contamination. If he, in the face of our response, persisted in his allegations, then that constitutes criminal slander and then he advises us to sue.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 01 January 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[trance]

SarahVaughter, on 21 December 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

- The fungus in this bottle is most prominently visible in the dropper pipette, but was not noticed until aftyer weeks after opening and use.
   That means that the fungus developed after opening. Esp. because it is exactly the pipette that comes into contact with the outside world, i.e. it touches the skin or the contents of a glass or a salad etc. sometimes. Or even just the outside air, where spores float around.

I have to correct this statement based on what I know.

Actually, the fungus is "most prominent" in the bottle itself.  I just could not get a good photo of the contents of the bottle through the dark brown glass, so I simply took a photo of the clear glass dropper assembly at the time.  The pipette most definitely pulled the contaminates in from the clouds floating in the bottle.  If you wish, I can pour some of the remaining contents of the bottle on to a white paper towel and post a photo.

I guess I'll have to leave a small bottle of my own C60oo open to the air continuously, where I store my C60oo bottles, and see if a similar contaminate appears in 2-3 weeks.

I cannot assure 100% that I did not cause the contamination (which I've repeatedly admitted here and in our personal email exchange when this occurred) -- but I do find it strange that you can now claim in bold print that it was caused after the opening. The single bottle itself could have been contaminated prior to filling it by any number of means during handling & production, so the batch mixing theory explanation is not completely viable.

[SarahVaughter]

Ah - I thought the fungus was mainly in the pipette. Sorry.

If not more people will come forward with pictures of fungus, we will never know whether it was a contaminated bottle or whether it happened later. There are 70 bottles in one 3.5 liter mixing bottle, if your bottle had fungus after a mere few weeks then it would stand to reason that there would be many more customers (dozens) asking for refunds for a spoilt expensive product. So far and fortunately, you were the only one.

Just to make things clear: We are not in the least angry with you. It's just that Anthony claimed we're shipping contaminated products. So far, one single bottle in thousands has evidence of fungal growth, and zero other bottles from that batch or even the same mixing bottle were reported to have fungus. Since you only noticed fungus some weeks after opening, Anthony's claim is unprovable. That's all. What we have to say to you is: We're sorry in case we shipped a contaminated product, and we immediately took it very seriously and made it up to you.

One more thing: In certain European jurisdictions, the truth is not a valid defense in cases of defamation. The only thing that counts is intent to do financial harm, truth or not. We can sue in any country we like, in any country where the defamatory comments have been read by at least one person. Mr. Loera is jeopardizing both his own freedom as well as the future of Revgenetics.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia...._defamation_law

Burden of proof on the defendant

"However, the common law of libel reverses the traditional positions somewhat: a defamatory statement is presumed to be false, unless the defendant can prove its truth."

Meaning that even under the most favorable circumstances for Revgenetics, in a European court of our choosing, Loera/Revgenetics have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their allegations are 100% true, and that they were made without ill intent. That will in our opinion be impossible, esp. seen the previous threats of suing us out of business. We will see who sues whom out of business, since we doubt whether Revgenetics has the financial wherewithal to withstand two or three rounds of litigation in Europe. We would seek the total dismantling of their company and the transfer of their websites, patents, trademarks, inventory, machines and investments, just as Loera threatened to do to us, some weeks ago in an email to me. Since Anthony never notified us of his announced case against us being canceled, we may go ahead and counter-sue/preemptively-sue, regardless of what our attorney advises.

The truth is/was no defense in the UK, for example, inviting "libel tourism":

http://boingboing.ne...orm-in-the.html

I do not know whether that bill has passed.  Neither is the truth a valid defense in the US, when "actual malice" is at play (and it is clear to us, seen Mr. Loera's previous threats, that malice may be the motivation):

http://firemark.com/...ways-a-defense/

Our attorney is on the case, and we will be notified shortly. We will be seeking maximum financial penalties as well as a lengthy prison sentence in Switzerland, if our attorney thinks we stand a good chance. We are a company experiencing extreme growth. The damage done by Mr. Loera could easily run into the millions of dollars. Jail terms for aggravated criminal slander with intent to do severe financial harm to a competitor are high in Switzerland. Even if the outcome will be "don't sue", Mr. Loera would do good to keep a low profile, since everything he will say in the coming years online will be stored in a database with his name on it and gone over with a fine-toothed comb, looking for anything we can use in court. We have Google alerts on his name, the name of his company and my name and the name of my company. Everything coming from him will be carefully examined for defamatory statements. We do not take the threats he made against us in the past weeks lightly, and we do not take criminal libel lightly either. "We will supoena for the IP address in case of defamatory statements that appear to come from sockpuppets or proxy servers" says our attorney.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 21 December 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[hav]

SarahVaughter, on 08 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Revgenetics' C60-in-oil has been rumored to use ultrasonic techiques to super-quickly dissolve the C60 into the oil (2000 x faster than stirring, according to Anthony Loera himself) and I think that is a really bad thing to do, since it is possible that the resulting product is of lesser quality than the product used in the Baathi study.

Anthony_Loera, on 20 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Sarah, our proprietary process is not unethical. It's called a trade secret, and whatever or however it is done... we will maintain the secret simply because we don't want people like yourself copying our methods.

I think Sarah makes a valid point.  And I don't think "trade secret" is a very good response to issues of safety and quality.  There has not been a toxicity study using heated or sonicated C60/evoo so we don't know if its safe or as effective as shown by the Baahti study.

Howard

[hav]

Anthony_Loera, on 20 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Now, what really is unethical is that your manufacturing practices seemed to have produce fungus in your products.
I have yet to see anyone else with manufacturing issues such as yours, it is recorded by Trance here on this board:

Sarah-Vaughter-C60-Fungus.Png


This is likely the reason your company can't register as an FDA facility for safety, or has an ISO certs in place. While you work with rumor and defamation, I actually provide facts that your own company has produced a product without the quality control mechanisms provided by cGMP, the FDA, and ISO standards in place to make it safe. This is a fact. Please provide your FDA registration so that I can be corrected.

What is a little fungus, you may ask? See my opinion piece below.

...

See my opinion piece below.
==============================================================================================================
The CDC and FDA Responds To Fungal Meningitis Outbreak Linked To Pharmaceutical Manufacturing:
(By Anthony Loera)

By October 10th of 2012, 12 people were dead and nearly 120 sickened by a fungal meningitis outbreak throughout several states of the United States. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) had found that the rare outbreak was not caused by natural causes, but that the outbreak was linked to the New England Compounding Center (NECC) manufacture and contamination of medication. The FDA moved in to pull vials from the manufacturing pharma that showed signs of fungus for the CDC to test the rare form of fungal meningitis that had already claimed lives and sickened so many. As the FDA helped the CDC, the NECC recalled three batches and surrendered their license to manufacture the drugs.

In October 21, a member at a popular internet forum reported that C60 Olive Oil purchased from a small company in Switzerland showed fungal contamination in the product, and produced a picture of the contaminated product. No reported deaths or sickness has been reported. The owner of the small company apologized. The small company in Switzerand does not use FDA cGMP standards of manufacturing, is not ISO certified, is not registered as a drug or nutraceutical company in the US with the FDA or Switzerland.

I think Anthony makes a valid point, too.  Maybe too much of one.  First of all, the facility responsible for the meningitis causing fungal contamination was Ameridose, LLC.  Although no formal report has been issued, reports indicate that they were in compliance with FDA and MA State site standards but may have exceeded their state license as a compounding pharmacy as to the size and scale of their operation.  So far, a determination of the actual cause of the fungal contamination has not been reported.

More importantly, it should be noted that the fungus involved only leads to meningitis if introduced into the spinal fluid.  The contaminated products were prescription drugs delivered into the spines of victims by injection.  My first reaction was that Anthony's raising this possible result as to c60/evoo was way over the top.  But upon reflection, I'm not so sure.  The power of c60/evoo seems to be that it gets everywhere, across the blood-brain barrier, and deep into virtually all of a person's cells. C60 has been cited as a possible excellent drug delivery system for exactly these reasons.  Perhaps it could deliver fungus just as efficiently directly into our spines.  And perhaps the FDA would cite this as among the reasons C60/evoo generally might be a potential health hazard unless administered by a doctor in a hospital-clean environment.  The good news is that there have not been any reports of meningitis outbreaks among c60/evoo users.  The bad news is that Anthony may be cutting off his own nose to spite his face because the FDA may agree with him as to all c60/evoo makers, even in the absence of any evidence either way.

Howard

[hav]

SarahVaughter, on 21 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

One more thing: In certain European jurisdictions, the truth is not a valid defense in cases of defamation. The only thing that counts is intent to do financial harm, truth or not. We can sue in any country we like, in any country where the defamatory comments have been read by at least one person. Mr. Loera is jeopardizing both his own freedom as well as the future of Revgenetics.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia...._defamation_law

Burden of proof on the defendant

"However, the common law of libel reverses the traditional positions somewhat: a defamatory statement is presumed to be false, unless the defendant can prove its truth."

Meaning that even under the most favorable circumstances for Revgenetics, in a European court of our choosing, Loera/Revgenetics have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their allegations are 100% true, and that they were made without ill intent. That will in our opinion be impossible, esp. seen the previous threats of suing us out of business. We will see who sues whom out of business, since we doubt whether Revgenetics has the financial wherewithal to withstand two or three rounds of litigation in Europe. We would seek the total dismantling of their company and the transfer of their websites, patents, trademarks, inventory, machines and investments, just as Loera threatened to do to us, some weeks ago in an email to me. Since Anthony never notified us of his announced case against us being canceled, we may go ahead and counter-sue/preemptively-sue, regardless of what our attorney advises.

The truth is/was no defense in the UK, for example, inviting "libel tourism":

http://boingboing.ne...orm-in-the.html

I do not know whether that bill has passed.  Neither is the truth a valid defense in the US, when "actual malice" is at play (and it is clear to us, seen Mr. Loera's previous threats, that malice may be the motivation):

http://firemark.com/...ways-a-defense/

Our attorney is on the case, and we will be notified shortly. We will be seeking maximum financial penalties as well as a lengthy prison sentence in Switzerland, if our attorney thinks we stand a good chance. We are a company experiencing extreme growth. The damage done by Mr. Loera could easily run into the millions of dollars. Jail terms for aggravated criminal slander with intent to do severe financial harm to a competitor are high in Switzerland. Even if the outcome will be "don't sue", Mr. Loera would do good to keep a low profile, since everything he will say in the coming years online will be stored in a database with his name on it and gone over with a fine-toothed comb, looking for anything we can use in court. We have Google alerts on his name, the name of his company and my name and the name of my company. Everything coming from him will be carefully examined for defamatory statements. We do not take the threats he made against us in the past weeks lightly, and we do not take criminal libel lightly either. "We will supoena for the IP address in case of defamatory statements that appear to come from sockpuppets or proxy servers" says our attorney.

Sarah,you cited a case still in progress which, as such, is not good law anywhere in the US.  All the court so far did was reverse a Motion for Summary Judgement in favor of the defendant, Staples, and send it back for trial to let a jury determine if plaintiff met the MA State "actual malice" standard.  Here in the US we had a violent revolution against the UK and its laws back in the 1700's and adopted the 1st Amendment freedom of speech. Which is the only reason that putting a defendant to the expense of placing such an obvious matter before a jury is even news.  It's interesting that the UK, over 200 years later, is finally waking up.

While you're talking to your attorney you might want to get advise on another few subjects.  Like the standard of proof in civil libel cases.  Here in the US its "a preponderance of the evidence".  Which judges usually explain to the juries as meaning a tipping of evidence in favor of a party, no matter how ever so slight.  "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is reserved for criminal cases.  You might also talk to you lawyer about the crime of attempted theft by extortion and get some advise about whether your post, threatening criminal prosecution to obtain a civil advantage, might cross the line.

Howard

[SarahVaughter]

Howard, for something to pass the blood-brain barrier, two things are required: Lipid-solubility and size < 500 Daltons. So C60 can not introduce a fungus into the CNS.

As to your unsolicited legal advice - perhaps you should also advise Mr. Loera to cease and desist from emailing me with demands for 8 million dollars, before you accuse me of the criminal offense of blackmailing. I hope that people here will finally stop accusing me or my company of malfeasances because there is a time where our patience ends. We can do without the continuous stress of such attacks. We are respectfully asking that the people stop attributing criminal activities to us. I remind you that falsely accusing someone of a crime is a crime in itself.

In Switzerland, what Mr. Loera just did is a very serious criminal offense punishable with three years prison - not a civil matter at all.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 22 December 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Hav,

I was under the impression C60 OO (oil, ie.lipid) could deliver fungus to cells, I suppose we need a study? I believe tichothecene mycotoxin is under 500 daltons and common in house hold mold.

Here in the United States the manufacturers are required to follow FDA cGMP, and labs outside the US usually have ISO accreditations to be trusted internationally, such as our lab that checks all our materials and batches for heavy metals and microbial for safety, before we send our supplements out into the world: AACL/ Intertek.


Cheers
A

P.S. I do like unsolicited legal advice from third parties.   ... and I also like the time stamps on posts here in the forum, specially when I mistype something... then have to correct or delete some words to accurately reflect my thoughts. Ah nuts... see, there I go again, correcting stuff for accuracy. I wonder how many people saw the original version of this post? I wonder how many people in the UK continue to see Sarah's unedited original posts, and will continue to see them in to the future?

I think I edited this post 4-6 times already. Most within a couple minutes of my first post... pretty much like I always do on many of my posts. I think most people in the forum here are like me, when they words on the post do not accuratly reflect our thoughts. We simply edit and change, until they do.

That is what the edit button is for, right?  

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 22 December 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[hav]

Hi, Sarah and Anthony.  Although I appreciate your invitation, Anthony, to offer legal advice, as a retired attorney all I am permitted to do (in fact its required) is to advise obtaining your own professional advice.  As I did with Sarah.  But I am permitted to engage in discussion of the issues.  Actually, the Longecity User Agreement says it quite well:

Quote

All Information on the ImmInst Forums, including those associated with health, sciences fora are provided as an area for the open exchange of anecdotal experience and information, not as a professional source of advice.

I didn't see any choice of law/forum provisions in the agreement.  Which might otherwise be helpful dealing with parties in countries which do not recognize freedom of speech.

It's been a long time since my chemistry and qualitative analysis courses in undergrad engineering, which didn't even cover much microbiology.  Most of what I've learned about that, I've pick up here from discussions and supplemental reading.  I take Anthony's info is that certain molds may be small enough to cross the blood-brain barrier but Sarah believes the fungus that causes meningitis is too large and/or not lipid soluble so could not do it.

In my readings about Statins and lipid-solubility, I recall seeing mention of possible damage to the blood-brain barrier and the possibility of it letting stuff through that would not pass through a healthy BBB.  Is this a possible mechanism by which people get meningitis?   Do you think the risk might be increased for a person who has taken lipid-soluble statins for years, if they ingest olive or any other kind of oil with fungus in it?  I have the impression that C60's presence may not impact things much either way, and that it's probably only an issue with the olive oil itself.  And based on my experience, very likely moisture contamination.

Howard

[SarahVaughter]

Howard, if you read Anthony's posting, you will see that nowhere he is claiming that some molds are small enough to cross the bbb. He says that a certain mold toxin is smaller than 500 Daltons.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 22 December 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[hav]

Thanks, Sarah.  I totally missed that.  I take it the mold and fungus toxins may or might not be good for you or your central nervous system but couldn't lead to meningitis. And comparing your lone incident to the meningitis outbreak here was a little over the top.  Thanks for discussing it, however.  It's relevant to all of us who make our own.

Howard

[SarahVaughter]

I regularly write articles about medical topics. It involves a lot of reading of scientific research papers and also a thorough understanding of infections of the CNS, since I also have been writing for years about that niche (Lyme neuroborreliosis, Multiple Sclerosis & ALS (postulations about their etiology), Candidiasis etc.)

If I thought there was the slightest risk of developing a CNS infection from moldy C60-in-oil, we would immediately have ceased sales to avoid liability and of course harm to the consumer. We have suspended sales of various products in the past when there was the slightest concern about quality. After going over our production methods and after having examined bottles from old batches, we found no such concern here, and it turned out to be correct, since there were zero further complaints pertaining bottles filled from that same mixing vessel (69 bottles should also have been affected), and no adverse effects were reported by the single complaining customer.

There are many things that have to happen before something can infect the CNS. The first thing is that an agent, ingested orally, has to survive the gastrointestinal processes. A mold won't get that far. Then, the mould would have to survive the immune response. Neither will it get that far. If it does, the patient would die within days unless immediate heroic intervention is performed (IV antifungals). And then we still have the blood-brain barrier to be penetrated (the space between the epithelial cells that make up the walls of the capillary veins in the brain). Molds don't have a propulsion mechanism to puncture those cells, as spirochetes do. And even the smallest mold is gigantic, compared to 500 Daltons. Orders of magnitude larger.

We came to the conclusion that most likely, the mold grew due to the condensation of moisture from the air into the bottle. If you open the bottle, moisture from the air gets in. If you then store the bottle in a cool place, some of that moisture condensates onto the bottle wall. It will then drip down into the oil. After a short while, especially if the bottle is then again stored in a warmer place for a while, mold can develop. It is also possible that, when using the dropper pipette, a drop of water somehow has been introduced into the oil.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 23 December 2012 - 10:08 AM.