517 replies to this topic

[ekaitz]

By the way Peptan is less than 20 euro/kg 

 

http://www.1000liter...sat-pulver.html

 

The site is a bit messy, they carry 2kg packs too (maybe even bigger) at better price but I can't find them in the site.

 

Peptan is 5000Da, maybe not as good as 2000-3000Da but evidence that gets well absorbed seems to be there. 

 

I'm in Europe and looks that the site doesnt carry peptan by now? do you know another site that sells the 2kg or any other format at decent price?

[BieraK]

http://bjsm.bmj.com/...t/52/3/167.long

 

PDF

Review

Dietary supplements for treating osteoarthritis: a systematic review and meta-analysis

Free

1. Xiaoqian Liu1,2,
2. Gustavo C Machado3,
3. Jillian P Eyles1,2,4,
4. Varshini Ravi1,2,
5. David J Hunter1,2

Abstract

Objective To investigate the efficacy and safety of dietary supplements for patients with osteoarthritis.

Design An intervention systematic review with random effects meta-analysis and meta-regression.

Data sources MEDLINE, EMBASE, Cochrane Register of Controlled Trials, Allied and Complementary Medicine and Cumulative Index to Nursing and Allied Health Literature were searched from inception to April 2017.

Study eligibility criteria Randomised controlled trials comparing oral supplements with placebo for hand, hip or knee osteoarthritis.

Results Of 20 supplements investigated in 69 eligible studies, 7 (collagen hydrolysate, passion fruit peel extract, Curcuma longa extract, Boswellia serrata extract, curcumin, pycnogenol and L-carnitine) demonstrated large (effect size >0.80) and clinically important effects for pain reduction at short term. Another six (undenatured type II collagen, avocado soybean unsaponifiables, methylsulfonylmethane, diacerein, glucosamine and chondroitin) revealed statistically significant improvements on pain, but were of unclear clinical importance. Only green-lipped mussel extract and undenatured type II collagen had clinically important effects on pain at medium term. No supplements were identified with clinically important effects on pain reduction at long term. Similar results were found for physical function. Chondroitin demonstrated statistically significant, but not clinically important structural improvement (effect size −0.30, –0.42 to −0.17). There were no differences between supplements and placebo for safety outcomes, except for diacerein. The Grading of Recommendations Assessment, Development and Evaluation suggested a wide range of quality evidence from very low to high.

Conclusions The overall analysis including all trials showed that supplements provided moderate and clinically meaningful treatment effects on pain and function in patients with hand, hip or knee osteoarthritis at short term, although the quality of evidence was very low. Some supplements with a limited number of studies and participants suggested large treatment effects, while widely used supplements such as glucosamine and chondroitin were either ineffective or showed small and arguably clinically unimportant treatment effects. Supplements had no clinically important effects on pain and function at medium-term and long-term follow-ups.

 

 

I think the better approach is combined intervention: Boswellia+Collagen+Another one.

This is coherent with my daily stack of 2016-2017, Andrographis+Grape seed (similar to pycnogenol).
 

[hav]

http://bjsm.bmj.com/...t/52/3/167.long

 

 Some supplements with a limited number of studies and participants suggested large treatment effects, while widely used supplements such as glucosamine and chondroitin were either ineffective or showed small and arguably clinically unimportant treatment effects. Supplements had no clinically important effects on pain and function at medium-term and long-term follow-ups.

 

 

I think the better approach is combined intervention: Boswellia+Collagen+Another one.

This is coherent with my daily stack of 2016-2017, Andrographis+Grape seed (similar to pycnogenol).
 

 

I've tried a number of the supplements in the study and my own experience is not at odds with their conclusions. Noting of course that it's difficult for me to self-asses medium- and long-term pain relief... because once I get used to a level of relief, I either take it for granted or become more attuned to lower levels of discomfort.  Indeed, during most healing processes, it becomes more annoying when I'm almost healed, forget, and aggravate the injury as a result.

 

I tend to categorize supplements somewhat differently from the study based on my own experience. Some supplements I take on faith mainly because research shows it has effects I'm after, even though I don't feel anything.  Like D3, pycnogenol, pine bark, and gse. Other ones I only notice minimally when I start but consciously notice the absence of the effect when I stop taking them. Condroitin, glucosamine, and mse are like that for me.  Collagen I notice right away (within 1-3 days) when I start and gradually notice the lack of effect if I discontinue after a few weeks.  The biggest effect I notice is from baicalein (not in that study) within a day or two and absence of the effect after about 3 days... this one I now take every other day and that works for me.

 

Howard

[nickdino]

If the damn cartilage got no bloodflow then how the hell it got there? Hows it grow?

As I've written repeatedly ad nauseum, it depends where the cartilage tear or insult occurs. If the insult is vascular, then indie compounds might speed the body's own healing. But, like duh, if the injury don't get no blood flow then how on earth would "boron" or any other magic wave its wand?

And speaking of "3D printed scaffolds" and "stem cells" they've been working on sheep forever, and there's still no straight horizon. Millions of injured people must wait and wait and wait until orthopedic advances figure out how to make more money out of suffering people than they already do with joint replacements.

[mikey]

I have to wonder if unwanted calcium deposition in the cartilage isn't part of the problem, or if calcium metabolism somehow contributes to cartilage loss. I've had some relief from muscle and hip pain after taking a dosage of vitamin K2-MK4 that's a bit higher than typically used -- 10 mg/day (still quite a bit under the 45 mg/day used in the study of Japanese post-menopausal women.

 

Calcium pyrophosphate crystals form in the synovial fluid when there is a boron deficiency. These crystals can erode joint tissues contributing to cartilage loss in the inflammatory spiral that is part of the cycle that produces arthritis. (Note that most older people have arthritic hands that show their age, gnarled knuckles, etc..., which I suspect generally occurs because of long-term boron deficiency.)
 

I have taken 500+ mcg/day of the superior form of vitamin K2 (MK-7) for a long time (several years) and noticed no improvement in my right-hand middle finger arthritis. Please note that vitamin K2 (MK-7) is effective in several hundred microgram doses and lasts in the body for three days, where MK4 requires 15 mg three times a day as it is undetectable in the body in about eight hours.

 

It was only after I had taken 12 mg/day of calcium fructoborate, a highly absorbable form of boron, that the knuckle began to shrink and eventually over a four-month period, stopped aching. It also has shrunken to be almost the same size as my unaffected left-hand middle finger, for comparative purposes.

 

Boron supplementation, generally above six mg a day, but is quite safe at much higher doses, has been shown in numerous studies to improve arthritis. I chose 12 mg/day after considerable reading.

 

I apologize for not providing references, but I am traveling and the laptop I have doesn't have my files fully loaded.

[Phoebus]

 

 

It was only after I had taken 12 mg/day of calcium fructoborate, a highly absorbable form of boron, that the knuckle began to shrink and eventually over a four-month period, stopped aching. It also has shrunken to be almost the same size as my unaffected left-hand middle finger, for comparative purposes.

 

 

very intereresting.

 

could not find calcium fructoborate on amazon stand alone, but they do have calcium boroglucate. Likely about the same thing would you say? 

[mikey]

very intereresting.

 

could not find calcium fructoborate on amazon stand alone, but they do have calcium boroglucate. Likely about the same thing would you say? 

 

It is available on Amazon  - -https://www.amazon.c...uctoborate&th=1

 

However, as you asked, any form of boron, including the use of the common cleaning product Borax in a solution diluted with water will work. They are all pure and clean enough to be utilized.

 

The Vibrant Health calcium fructoborate product is just a version of the trademarked Frutex-B. This is also available as a pure powder.

 

However, measuring it in 12 mg doses is too much work, so I don't recommend anything but the capsules. I think that there are several other companies selling Fructex-B.

 

BTW: just to note - I do take one-two tablespoons of hydrolyzed collagen a day and this, along with traction, appears to be improving the amount of disc material that I have had scanned in cervical discs. The last MRI that was conducted showed what appears to be improvements in my cervical disc heights, based on what the neurologist said.

 

I am in the middle of moving, so I must re-establish a relationship with a neurologist to be clear about what has happened to my cervical discs in comparative MRI's.

[Logic]

I have ancedotal reports of joint and back pain relief from myself and two other people to whom i have given Solgar's Astragalus.
This got me looking for clinical info/evidence on it using 'cartilage chondrocyte astragalus pubmed' as a search.
This is what I have found so far:
( Remember that all bone starts out as cartilage...)

http://www.naturalhe...ing-astragalus/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21351470

http://www.cabdirect....11-15-g9672536

http://163.180.18.21...18/40067899.pdf
Astragalus membranaceus plays the important role on angiogenesis and osteogenesis
in tissue regeneration through enhanced by growth factors (bFGF, VEGF) and
extracellular matrix proteins (OCN, OPN, Col), and possibly lead to the development
of tissue-regeneration drug and bone-formation.


2 other interesting studies on different herbs that also popped up:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21091251

http://www.searchmed...82.xml&t=pubmed

These herbs and HGH boosters seem worth further investigation IMHO.

http://www.thereales...s.com/hgh2.html
???

http://www.longecity...a-gpc-research/

It seems that  HT042, a blend of Phlomis umbrosa, Astragalus membranaceus, and Eleutherococcus senticosus, as described in the "other interesting study" is in fact an available product.
It also seems that a study in kids was done where the product was shown to make them grow faster.
https://www.ec21.com...S--4367198.html

It's been a while but IIRC bones grow in length from their cartilage ends and in fact start out as cartilage before biological changes harden them.  So there is some er... logic in this 'fantasy'. 
ie:  If we were able to grow a millimeter or 2 that growth would in fact be new cartilage..?