• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

After using Theanine, Extreme anxiety with GABA, doesn't go away HELP.

anxiety theanine gaba picamilon

  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 Anx12

  • Guest
  • 5 posts
  • 0
  • Location:us

Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:06 PM


Used Theanine a couple of times, no more than 200mg, with usual caffeine, tyrosine and other supps that i doubt had anything to do, and felt slightly anxious (caffeine tolerance is high and don't get that from caffeine or anything i used), thought nothing of it.

Then couple of days later used picamilon with my normal caffeine etc (no theanine). and got VERY anxious, high palpitations etc. unusual since i've used everything before, lasted some hours but it went away, i thought it was the caffeine and theanine somehow lowered my sensitivity to it.

Weekend past and i used 1-2g GABA with normal caffeine (no more than 320mg, no theanine) and usual supplements, got Extremely anxious, palpitations lasted hours more, went to the doc day after and my BP was normal. I haven't used GABA or picamilon for prolonged times or regularly, i don't take any medications. It wasn't the normal GABA flush, felt like it but it lasted several hours. Had a Hangover feeling days after. Pica or GABA never had these SE for me before.

Anxiety comes and goes now, could it be it's all in my head? i don't have external anxiety signs like moving uncontrollably, i've been obsessing a little and looking up symptoms etc. still can't eat much because of it, simple things like relaxation breathing seem to help but still feel uneasy at times. I haven't feel dizzy, or low BP. What do you think? Apreciate the help.
  • Disagree x 1

#2 Olon

  • Guest
  • 109 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Germany

Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

GABA receptors are strange beasts. I used to have paradox reactions to benzodiazepines and related substances (got overexcited and aggressive). Now that I'm taking quercetin, which in theory should make it even worse by promoting choride transport into the cells resulting in outward directed chloride current through GABA receptors instead of inward-directed current, this paradox reaction is gone (tried it once, just because I was interested).
Bacopa upregulates GABA receptors.
But one never knows whether messing more with these receptors will make it better or worse.
  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.

#3 heymazing

  • Guest
  • 32 posts
  • 0
  • Location:travelling

Posted 20 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

This woman sells her councelling services at the end, but I found the article to be interesting and eye opening.. Might help in some way:

http://www.holistich...ansmitters.html



(scroll down to the part where she talks about amino acid therapy)

#4 ranza

  • Guest
  • 50 posts
  • 11
  • Location:EU

Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:41 PM

Give mega-dosing Tyrosine a try, it cancelled my anxiety completely.
Of course make your research on safety first.

#5 heymazing

  • Guest
  • 32 posts
  • 0
  • Location:travelling

Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, thought this was a response to my post. My comment is irrelevant!

Edited by heymazing, 20 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.


#6 Reformed-Redan

  • Guest
  • 2,200 posts
  • -9
  • Location:Thousand Oaks, CA

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

Probably wasnt the theanine. Stuffs really harmless (and good for anxiety). Throw away the other stuff for a while and see what happens. Just stick with theanine alone at 100mg for a little bit.

#7 Bman56

  • Guest
  • 16 posts
  • 9
  • Location:PA

Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

Probably wasnt the theanine. Stuffs really harmless (and good for anxiety). Throw away the other stuff for a while and see what happens. Just stick with theanine alone at 100mg for a little bit.

Theanine is indeed harmless. It's just an amino acid, I really don't think it can have any negative effect on your GABA system due to its mild nature. I take 100mg a night, no problems.

#8 renfr

  • Guest
  • 1,059 posts
  • 72
  • Location:France

Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

it's probably a troll like the guy who got seizures from choline and the guy whose balls shrank with nefiracetam.
If this is real then I would suggest OP to check his vitamins and minerals levels, caffeine depletes several vitamins and minerals.
  • dislike x 3

#9 ranza

  • Guest
  • 50 posts
  • 11
  • Location:EU

Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

I agree renfr as well, check yourself for deficiencies in vitamins.

#10 Anx12

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5 posts
  • 0
  • Location:us

Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

Thanks for all the responses, Not a troll (knew it was gonna sound troll-ish), theanine was coincidental so i thought it caused it.

Seems like it was something else i took with gaba that made me produce too much of it, hence i felt like i overdosed on benzos (i think, never had those).

I don't have anxiety anymore, can sleep without issues and no palpitations, think it'll be fine?

Edited by Anx12, 21 January 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#11 Olon

  • Guest
  • 109 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Germany

Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

Theanine is indeed harmless. It's just an amino acid, I really don't think it can have any negative effect on your GABA system due to its mild nature. I take 100mg a night, no problems.


I quit after lying on the floor crying, with blood running out of my nose.
  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

#12 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:43 PM

I quit after lying on the floor crying, with blood running out of my nose.

lol. That one was not serious, was it?

#13 visorconfederation

  • Guest
  • 25 posts
  • 8
  • Location:Australia

Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:42 AM


I quit after lying on the floor crying, with blood running out of my nose.

lol. That one was not serious, was it?


I think it was.

#14 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:52 AM

Well I can contribute something to theanine side effects too. I use tyrosine amongst cofactors to increase catecholamines, which works well. However, once I added theanine, tyrosine became increasingly too much for me, so I had to reduce tyrosine to a fraction of what I used to take.
Side effects: extreme over stimulation, headache, dizziness. Actually, I was worried that could even get a seizure!

I was not sure if it indeed was theanine, because it could been something else too. So I quit taking theanine, and increased tyrosine to levels that would have made me suffer massively while on theanine. No side effects appeared.

So my hypothesis is that theanine does increase dopamine in a few areas in the brain, compared to the dopamine "baseline" of the brain. So the higher the baseline, the more dopamine will be in those key areas, compared to an individuals baseline. I raised my baseline a lot with tyrosine, so it was simply too much for those regions. Unfortunately I am not interested to increase dopamine in my striatum, hypothalamus and hippocampus exclusively, so theanine is on my no-list now...

If your neurotransmitter levels and/or receptor densities are messed up, there is a good chance that your brain will re-adapt if you stay away from theanine.

Edited by BioFreak, 04 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

  • like x 1

#15 Absent

  • Guest
  • 492 posts
  • 58
  • Location:Earth

Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:10 PM

As a general rule of thumb you never take Theanine and Tyrosine at the same time. They work essentially work against each other.

#16 Anx12

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5 posts
  • 0
  • Location:us

Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

Well I can contribute something to theanine side effects too.


so how much tyrosine were you taking? daily? i guess those would be a factor, now that i recall i've taken both in a supp. (unknown amounts), had no issues.

Again my problem was elevated GABA from something else i took, theanine was quite a few days before this.

#17 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:35 PM

As a general rule of thumb you never take Theanine and Tyrosine at the same time. They work essentially work against each other.


care to elaborate? All I know is that tyrosine boosts dopamine even more in areas where theanine boosts dopamine. Dosen't exactly fit the "work against each other"?

so how much tyrosine were you taking? daily? i guess those would be a factor, now that i recall i've taken both in a supp. (unknown amounts), had no issues.
Again my problem was elevated GABA from something else i took, theanine was quite a few days before this.


I was using a 0,5ml scoop, if I calculate it right it must have been a bit below 260mg, 3 times a day. Together with 200mg theanine, 3 times a day - that was the maximum dose I could tolerate as long as I was taking theanine. Previously I was taking 1,3g tyrosine 3x/day.
after I quit theanine, I could increase tyrosine again to that dosage. But I am debating right now what the right tyrosine dosage is, if any, since I stopped 5-htp.

Man so wierd. I have been a tealover for a long time now but as soon as I start drinking tea, especially green tea! BOOM! My OCD goes full throttle. I have had this issue for 2 months now, wtf!? I need the teaboost but I just become F´d in the head with it. I HATE OCD, FUCK OCD and all anxiety disorders. I am so tired of it.


Sounds to me like you may be affected from theanine in tea (although its really low dose in tea) and/or egcg? From what I know OCD can be triggered by high dopamine levels. You could try to blow off steam in the gym and train to muscle failure, and any form of torture that goes beyond your muscles capabilities (superslow, let someone help you with reps once you cant do by yourself etc) - that lowers catecholamine levels in the long term. Actually, exactly that behavior lowered dopamine enough that I started to have restless leg syndrome.
Or, if you are taking dopamine increasing drugs like ritalin, lower the dose?

#18 Absent

  • Guest
  • 492 posts
  • 58
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

As a general rule of thumb you never take Theanine and Tyrosine at the same time. They work essentially work against each other.


care to elaborate? All I know is that tyrosine boosts dopamine even more in areas where theanine boosts dopamine. Dosen't exactly fit the "work against each other"?



Theanine has no direct effect on Dopamine. It is the GABA & Glutamate which theanine is converted into that alters Dopamine, and this can infact mean that Dopamine levels are reduced in some areas of the brain. Glutamate and GABA regulate the other neurotransmitter systems.

You throw tyrosine in there and it's basically going to raise Dopamine levels in the brain, all around, while the effects of Theanine may be causing them to be reduced in some areas, and you have the clashing effect.

Plus every report I've read of people combining the 2, including my own experiences, have shown that it produces very unpleasant effects. Often times the feeling that you want to do things but a high anxiety about doing anything. It's a very clashing feeling, it's the only word I can think of to describe it, not fun at all. Sometimes it can be akin to a bad psychedelics trip(the anxious/energized feelings you get) that just wont stop and you just have to ride it out.

Edited by Siro, 12 February 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#19 airplanepeanuts

  • Guest
  • 352 posts
  • 15
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:28 AM

Sometimes it can be akin to a bad psychedelics trip(the anxious/energized feelings you get) that just wont stop and you just have to ride it out.

I kind of want to try it now...:)

For me theanine feels a little bit dopamine/ euphoric. But that goes away after a couple of days. What stays for me is an unmotivated feeling that reminds me of caffeine withdrawal. High Gaba I guess. So I don't take it.

#20 Anx12

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5 posts
  • 0
  • Location:us

Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:08 AM

Anything else on having an episode of way over the top GABA levels health wise? I don't think i had a long lasting rebound after my issue other than the few days i felt like crap but still would like to know if anything could arise from this.

I feel kinda 'off' or that something is unusual at times but i believe it's due to other factors, i don't think i have any low or high GABA symptoms.

#21 BioFreak

  • Guest
  • 541 posts
  • 53
  • Location:Germany

Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

Theanine has no direct effect on Dopamine. It is the GABA & Glutamate which theanine is converted into that alters Dopamine, and this can infact mean that Dopamine levels are reduced in some areas of the brain. Glutamate and GABA regulate the other neurotransmitter systems.



there seems to be some evidence saying that dopamine is indeed increased in some regions of the brain.

Yokogoshi H, Kobayashi M, Mochizuki
M, Terashima T. Effect of theanine, rglutamylethylamide,
on brain monoamines
and striatal dopamine release in conscious rats.
Neurochem Res 1998;23:667-673.

And that is the only logical explanation, that tyrosine and theanine lead to increased catecholamine levels way above what could be done with tyrosine alone. That also would explain anxiety when combining both. Tyrosine increases catecholamines, so if your hypothesis were correct, brain levels should return torwards baseline after being reduced by theanine. And that would mean less side effects, more normal function. Only a accumulation effect however can explain why tyrosine, that increases catecholamines, and theanine, which does the same in some areas of the brain combined produce these side effects. This would only work out if both substances would lower catecholamines, which they do not. Also, even though gaba regulates neurotransmitters it does not choose differently which neurotransmitters to reduce, just because it got increased by theanine. Actually, if gaba is increased it should have an inhibitory effect on neurotransmitters, dampening the effect tryosine and with it increased catecholamine levels have, not increasing it. To make it short, I think your hypothesis can not explain the side effects of combining tyrosine and theanine.

Actually, I would say the side effects of combining both were more like LESS inhibitory neurotransmitters in my brain. I once used beta alanine's effect on gaba receptors for anxiety, and it worked just like any other drug that I heard from that uses gaba receptors. I could go very high with beta alanine, because I did not have side effects like other people have on higher dosages. When I came off, I also had this feeling of overstimulation. But tyrosine and theanine are WAY stronger, I never felt so overstimulated, and it was the first time I was fearing to get a seizure. So if any, then inhibitory effects get less not more... And both gaba and glutamate are inhibitory, so again, combining tyrosine with theanine should inhibit the brain, compared to tyrosine alone.

when I think about it that way - maybe ops problems are simply receptor downregulation of gaba, and bacopa monnieri would fix this. Don't know if that would help with glutamate receptor downregulation though, it that would be the case too

actually, I have my own hypothesis now:
1. theanine increased gaba and glutamate, producing a relaxed feeling
2. theanine increased dopamine and serotonin in several areas of the brain. this combination could lead to the alpha wave pattern. stimulated, but "in check"
3. gaba (and glutamate?) receptors get desensitized.
4. dopamine and serotonin are not increased in the frontal lobe, where all the complex thinking stuff happens, but still in other areas of the brain -> now exhibitory forces are stronger, and in areas that may not prove beneficial to us.

upon quitting theanine, dopamine and serotonin should return to baseline, but gaba receptor sensitivity is still present AND gaba is much less then before. hence, side effects from too few inhibitory neurotransmitter action in the brain, until gaba/glutamate neurotransmitters have been upregulated again, and an explanation for op's problem.

so everytime op uses a stimulant, tyrosine, caffeine etc, he increases exhibitory effects in the brain, but the brain has below par inhibitory action, resulting in overstimulation. Gaba is not able to get through the BBB, so it would have no effect at all on the brain, while stimulants would. Picamilon gets through the BBB, but it may be a too low dose, in relation to the downregulation of gaba receptors thats still in place.

So I would stop taking ANY stimulants, NO gaba receptor activating supplements, and try to increase gaba sensitivity. That could work out.

I have yet to find a use for the theanine I have left. damn.

Edited by BioFreak, 13 February 2013 - 01:20 PM.

  • dislike x 1

#22 Absent

  • Guest
  • 492 posts
  • 58
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:32 PM

Theanine has no direct effect on Dopamine. It is the GABA & Glutamate which theanine is converted into that alters Dopamine, and this can infact mean that Dopamine levels are reduced in some areas of the brain. Glutamate and GABA regulate the other neurotransmitter systems.



there seems to be some evidence saying that dopamine is indeed increased in some regions of the brain.

Yes Dopamine IS indeed increased in some areas but not by a direct action of theanine... Every alteration in neurotransmitters is going to have an effect on every other system. None of these systems are totally independent Theanine gets converted into GABA which can be converted into Glutamate if needed. GABA & Glutamate regulate brain function, which can alter the 'balance' of other neurotransmitters, meanings causing a rise in some in some areas, and a lessening of some in other areas.

#23 deeptrance

  • Guest
  • 267 posts
  • 82
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:01 AM

...both gaba and glutamate are inhibitory, so again, combining tyrosine with theanine should inhibit the brain, compared to tyrosine alone.


Glutamate is the most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter, it is not inhibitory.

This could help explain why there are such different responses in some people to theanine: each individual might have a different propensity to create more glutamate vs. GABA after consuming theanine.

Before I learned about GABA being very inefficient at crossing the BBB, I tried it a few times for the calming effects that were advertised. But each time I tried it, I had a paradox reaction, it would induce severe anxiety. I believe what may have happened is that some of the GABA was being peripherally converted to glutamate and then crossed the BBB.

Glutamate is often implicated in seizures, which addresses what you said about feeling like you were going to have a seizure.

Edited by deeptrance, 08 June 2013 - 03:02 AM.


#24 socialpiranha

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 63
  • Location:Nova Scotia

Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:52 AM

i had a massive panic attack the first time i drank green tea, i tried suntheanine later though with no noticable effect...its hard to know whats doing what unless your working with a single substance/molecule

#25 Sunwind

  • Guest
  • 103 posts
  • 11
  • Location:England

Posted 08 June 2013 - 10:10 AM

GABA alone does not even cross the blood brain barrier. I seriously doubt that it is having any of these major negative effects you are experiencing, it's either something else, or placebo. Do you people even do your own research before posting this garbage cluttering up the forum like this? It is seriously degrading the quality of content and spreading mis-information.

Edited by Sunwind, 08 June 2013 - 10:12 AM.

  • unsure x 1
  • dislike x 1

#26 Mescalito

  • Guest
  • 12 posts
  • 13
  • Location:Internet

Posted 18 December 2014 - 11:02 PM

Unless the GABA increases peripheral GABA levels, causing an indirect elevation of GABA/Glutamate as a secondary effect.  Funny how people can be so cocky about pharmacology when there is obviously more that we do not know than we do.  :]


  • like x 1

#27 Sciencyst

  • Guest
  • 272 posts
  • 42
  • Location:The Claustrum

Posted 21 December 2014 - 07:57 AM

I also get paradoxical reactions from theanine. Sometimes it will cut back on my anxiety and other times it will make it much, much worse to the point of a panic attack.


Edited by katuskoti, 21 December 2014 - 08:05 AM.


#28 Sciencyst

  • Guest
  • 272 posts
  • 42
  • Location:The Claustrum

Posted 21 December 2014 - 08:04 AM

From http://examine.com/supplements/Theanine/#summary4-9

 

 Elsewhere, oral intake of 4% theanine in the water of rats was noted to be protective against pilocarpine but augmented seizures from pentylenetetrazol; the authors suggested usage in treating limbic seizures but not generalized seizures[41] and hypothesized that the mechanism was related to reducing GABA concentrations in the frontal cortex.[41] A potentiation of seizures induced by pentylenetetrazol, a GABAAantagonist,[42] have been noted elsewhere with both green and black tea containing theanine.[43]



#29 Mescalito

  • Guest
  • 12 posts
  • 13
  • Location:Internet

Posted 21 December 2014 - 11:53 AM

Oh GABA, why must you inhibit yourself???  The dopamine elevation is obvious too, Theanine makes me aggressive I find.  Ashwagandha balances it out nicely however.



sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.

#30 Ark

  • Guest
  • 1,729 posts
  • 383
  • Location:Beijing China

Posted 21 December 2014 - 05:41 PM

Nailed it!

GABA alone does not even cross the blood brain barrier. I seriously doubt that it is having any of these major negative effects you are experiencing, it's either something else, or placebo. Do you people even do your own research before posting this garbage cluttering up the forum like this? It is seriously degrading the quality of content and spreading mis-information.



sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: anxiety, theanine, gaba, picamilon

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users