74 replies to this topic

[LucidMind]

 

Anybody have any thoughts on whether drinking alkaline water to help with an ulcer would interfere with absorption of nutraceuticals, supplements or pharmaceuticals?

 

What exactly is this alkaline water?  Is it electrolyzed reduced water, sometimes (misleadingly) called "alkalized" water?  Or is it just water that has a pH higher than 7? 

 

I should have been more specific. I am talking about electrolyte water such as this 365 electrolyte water sold at Whole Foods. It contains deionized water, electrolytes (potassium bicarbonate, calcium chloride, magnesium chloride). So the potassium makes the water more "alkaline" but I do not know if the pH would be higher than 7. 

 

The point is whether "electrolyzed" water would be helpful for ulcers or would inhibit absorption of certain substances. 

Edited by LucidMind, 16 February 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[niner]

The 365 Electrolyte Water is not "electrolyzed" water, it's just water with some electrolytes in it.  I doubt that there is enough of any of the various ions to have a big effect on ulcers.  There are some drugs that are not supposed to be taken with antacids.  (It should say so somewhere on the container.)  The calcium and magnesium in this would interact with such drugs, although it's not clear how much Ca and Mg are actually in this stuff.  It's not actually the potassium that makes this water alkaline, but rather the bicarbonate.  The potassium is just along for the ride.  The magnesium and calcium chloride will make the water slightly acid, so the bicarbonate was probably chosen to counteract that and bring the pH back up into the slightly alkaline range.  As such, it should neutralize a bit of stomach acid, but probably not very much.

 

If you have an ulcer, then you should probably see a doctor and get a prescription for an antibiotic to kill the H. Pylori that is the probable cause of the ulcer.  You could take a proton pump inhibitor for a week or two, but I don't recommend them as long term therapy.  You can also use conventional antacids.  Milk of Magnesia should be pretty safe.  I don't like the idea of aluminum hydroxide products because they may increase the risk of Alzheimers and osteoporosis.  Calcium Carbonate has rebound acidosis problems.  Bicarbonates should be ok.

[shifter]

One thing I find that most western diets do not have but are critical for bone health is K2. We are the biggest consumers of dairy products but have the highest incidence of osteoporosis. Some blame animal protein, I blame this low fat fad that has essentially forbid us having vitamin K2 such as in aged cheeses and butter etc. The 1 non animal source that is rich in K2 is natto but show me a typical western household that has natto in the freezer (except mine because I like it)

 

I guess you could also blame the chronic vitamin D deficiency is the general population because we have had it drummed in since childhood to wear sunscreen, sunnies and a hat. Food is not a good source of this critical vitamin so most of us have little Vitamin D and next to no Vitamin K2. Yet we blame consumption of animal protein. I think we are overlooking another important issue here.

 

My uncle has osteoporosis. His 'specialist' told him to supplement on 'calcium' and said to him to not take anything else with it. Each tablet was just 500mg calcium carbonate. No other minerals, no Vitamin D or K2. This was his expert specialists answer to manage his condition. And as I don't have a fancy degree, my opinion or knowledge is invalid.

 

It is experts like this that have been telling us how to eat for the last few decades. Personally I go against this grain and eat more high fat (cook with olive and coconut oil) but low carb (no added sugars where I can) but not extreme like Paleo and incorporate things like oats, milk and dairy in my diet. Works for me and I was born with a subluxed hip but don't feel the need for surgery (especially after seeing the horrors of dodgy hip replacements)! Thanks again 'experts'

[aza]

There is also boron, magnesium and exercise.

[shifter]

Indeed the western nations are also the most lazy so generally our bones do not get any load bearing exercise. Of course people still blame eating animals as the reason for all our ills. I'm curious what the mineral co factors would also be in a typical western diet.

 

One thing I do notice that apart from having among the highest incidence of osteoporosis, we also claim to fame among the highest incidence of heart disease. Now we are told how healthy calcium is and if you ask anyone they will tell you that calcium is what's good for bones. No one knows the role the other minerals and vitamin D3 or K2 do. In fact, most people have not even heard of vitamin K2! And of course people don't think of exercise when they think of strong bones.

 

So it got me thinking about the heart disease. One of the side effects of calcium is arterial stiffness. That's why the other vitamins and minerals are so important (to get the calcium where we want it, such as our bones and teeth). I wonder if there is any correlation of our high incidence of heart disease and our high calcium intake. We know it's not going in our bones so perhaps it's being deposited in our arteries making them stiffer and causing problems there. Of course because I don't have a fancy degree the 'experts' will rubbish this hypothesis and point me to one of the many articles saying it's all cholesterols fault and we should all go on statins as a preventative measure (watch as they keep lowering the threshold of what a 'healthy range' of cholesterol is to capture more and more people onto the drug).

Edited by shifter, 02 June 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[aza]

i personally just hate when the media and some vegans go on about how the countries with the highest milk/protien intakes have the highest rates of osteoporosis or whatever. When most of the studies (that i've looked into at least) dont account for so many important co-founders. Shifter, you may find this interesting. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25694037

[Chupo]

This is anecdotal but should a fall from standing hight result in multiple fractures? I don't think so, even in a 68 year old. Surely Dr. McDougall should have bones of steel since he's vegan.  Rather, it look as if he has severe osteoporosis!

 

 

On March 16, 2015, during the hours following the McDougall Advanced Study Weekend I developed a viral infection that affected my inner ears. I totally lost my hearing, my balance was disturbed, and I became very weak. At about midnight I walked to the bathroom, lost all control of my muscles, fell down to the floor onto my buttocks, and was unconsciousness for a few minutes. I woke with severe pain. With Mary's help I managed to return to bed. She wanted to call an ambulance, but I refused. I knew what could happen. I would be taken to the hospital, x-rayed, and found to have fractures of my lower vertebrae, pelvis, and a spiral fracture of my left femur (I knew this by the way I felt)...

 

https://www.drmcdoug...artsurgeons.htm

[Schnurbi]

Well, you can either be too acid, or too alkaline. Balance is key- you can measure your saliva and 2nd urine ph in the mornings, keep both at 6.5-7.0 and eat whatever keeps you there&is healthy. People dont realize both extremes are bad for the long term.

[shifter]

Can someone enlighten me on this too acid or too alkaline thing. It makes no sense to me. The body has a very tight regulation in keeping the pH range between 7.35 - 7.45. (funnily enough it is always alkaline). Anything outside this range even a little and you wouldn't be alive. So there is no such thing as people walking around in an 'acid state'. Holding your breath to build up your CO2 levels is the only way I know that we can generally affect our pH levels. Our diet has nothing to do with it and whatever pH we put in our mouth invariable gets altered when it hits the stomach and then again in the small intestines.

 

Urine pH is affected by how hydrated you are more than anything.

 

I found this which may be interesting to read

 

www.quackwatch.org/01quackery/RelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

Edited by shifter, 23 June 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[shifter]

Sorry, broken link

www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

 

 

 

[Schnurbi]

Yep, I will enlighten you.

Your blood pH is correlated with your urine and saliva pH.

Mind that I said between 6.5 and 7 is optimal, this goes for saliva and urine only. If your blood was 6.5 you'd probaby die.

 

Once you have your diet dialed in so you always get your urine and saliva pH right, you can be sure that your body does not pull out minerals or other nutrients out of bones or tissue to be able to regulate your blood pH.

Your blood pH is tightly regulated- but how is it regulated? It comes at a price.

Controlling your blood and saliva pH makes sure you can keep your nutrients b/c your body does not have to compensate a lot. makes sense?

 

PS: You can measure both urine and saliva pH with a pH meter. Cheap thing- and then you know for sure. There is also a list of foods to raise/lower pH that I got from the book "the hidden cure" by Laurens Maas.

Edited by Schnurbi, 24 June 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[joelcairo]

That's more or less what I have decided is happening too. The blood pH must remain in a tight range, but there is some real evidence that alkaline diets have an effect on the body's tissues, for example the functioning of cancer cells. However I don't really have an opinion on the value, if any, of an alkaline diet. It seems to me that this subject consists mostly of pontificating about how the body supposedly works, with little empirical research to back it up. That's not a recipe for sound dietary/medical advice.

[Schnurbi]

Well, also any extreme is a bad idea. If you eat an acid diet- you will feel suboptimal. If you eat an alkaline diet- you will feel suboptimal.

Once you balance your diet so that you are in the perfect PH range, you will feel good.

Be a biohacker. get the data, optimize yourself.

Edited by Schnurbi, 26 June 2016 - 12:03 PM.

[shifter]

My friend is heaps into body building, and eats a ridiculous amount of protein. Should for some reason he not 'use' the protein I am guessing calcium will be leeched from his bones and over the course of a few years, could develop osteoporosis. BUT if he uses all that protein? His life style has balanced with an 'acid promoting' diet therefor negating the effect.

 

I think it's more than what we eat but our lifestyle too. I think lifestyle is too often always overlooked.

 

And regarding my urine pH, wouldn't that be different every time? If I drank more water before bed I can alter its pH in the morning right? Or what if I went for a run and sweat a lot therefore less water ending up in my bladder. Acidic saliva must be hell for teeth, I'd hope mine is 7 or a tad higher.

 

I think rather than say an 'acid' or 'alkaline' diet. It should rather say 'acid promoting diet' and 'alkaline promoting diet'.

 

I mean, what is 'alkalised' water? My tap water which comes free in the tap with all its chlorine and other chemicals is quite blue on the pH scale....

[Schnurbi]

I assume the protein will have an impact on the acidity regardless of his physical activity levels..

Calcium also should not be a problem since we have it abundantly in out diets. Osteoporosis is therefore more of a Vitamin D/K2 thing- making use of available calcium from diet.

 

Of course there will always be variability, but as long as I measure 2nd morning urine - since I have my diet dialed in and eat enough veggies- I get quite consistent results. I am never too acidic- sometimes a tad alkaline. It did not use to be that way back when I started. My experience has been- with taking regular mineral supplements and eating a lot of veggies (think a whole plate of green stuff plus butter plus protein) that seems to be optimal for me. I never get many variations based on water/sweating- I assume because the body just tells me to drink more when necessary, etc.

 

And yes- it is a sliding scale- there is no acid or alkaline diet- so yeah you could call it alkalinity-promoting diet or something like that.

 

Interesting fact: when I eat a lot of spinach in the evening, I will be more acid. why? because the oxalic acid sticks to the minerals I take in the evening and I can not absorb them. I have tested it.

 

Edited by Schnurbi, 27 June 2016 - 09:06 PM.