73 replies to this topic

[okok]

First it gives you a nasty headache and fatigue, darkens the urine, and then proceeds into rapid heartbeat and finally, worst of all, inability to sleep. The enema (or colonic) provides a prompt cure to all this. But! an adsorbent prevents toxins from getting into the bloodstream in the first place

Ah, tell me that yesterday!
I noticed a craving for (apple cider) vinegar - is it bad to take any calories whatsoever?
Disregarding social/work constraints, do you have a preference of a long fast over multiple shorter equal total length ones in terms of benefit/cost?

[Mind]

According to some people I have talked to, and interviewed, like Paul Wakfer, it only takes 16 hours of fasting to upregulate autophagy. Wakfer's routine was to fast for 20 hours each day, then eat all of his necessary calories over the course of a 4 hour period.

If you are going for ketosis and autophagy, then it would take a little longer. However, I wonder about doing exercise to deplete glycogen as an option to bring on ketosis quicker.

Edited by Mind, 09 March 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[xEva]

Sorry for disappearing I was going to post the report on Fri night, but got distracted and did not realize that it was already late. I fell asleep before I got to it and then there was a busy weekend.

DAY 7 Mar 8 Fri

9:00 wt 129 (+1, -9), BG 56 = 3.1, ketones ~120

18:00 BG 68 = 3.8, ketones = 80

The increase in weight has 2 reasons. First, in the second part of Day 6 I must have lived through the fabled, dreaded and anticipated, first crise -- just before the brain switches to getting 1/3 of its energy from ketones, which lowers the protein demand for gluconeogenesis and is reflected in the drop in daily weight loss. Even though it came right on schedule, I did not recognize it. I expected it later on, mainly because I got into ketosis kind of late. Also, mentally I was fogged out which affected my judgement. I felt pretty miserable and even regretted having put myself out as a 'model faster'. But now I'm glad that my obligation helped me to persevere; otherwise I'd be in the position of a poor chap who, having waited for a bus for a long time, left just before it came.

The main reason for the increase in weight is that the night before I tested a popular procedure on the Russian fasting forum which is reported to help with liver congestion and improve how one feels. That night I felt an unpleasant pressure building up in the right side and thought I'd try it out. So I drank a L+ of warmed up Essentuki-4, which is spring water with high mineral content from Caucasus, and held a heating pad on on the liver. The label lists 6-9 g of minerals per L (HCO3-, Cl-, SO4--, Ca++, Mg++, Na+, K+). It tasted absolutely divine. This procedure is supposed to cause the gallbladder to contract and have the purgative effect. The only thing I experienced was that the warmth from the heating pad felt very good and promptly relieved the unpleasant sensation of pressure in the right side. I think the lack of purgative effect was due to me being dehydrated -- the body simply absorbed it all => increase in weight on the following day.


The next morning (Day 7) I felt very good and had a had a strong desire to move. I just could not sit still. The weather was not too inviting, so I spent the day doing the chores I could not bring myself to do for quite a while. My willingness and diligence in tackling them surprised me and I chuckled that autophagy within must have been spilling out -- in line with my old belief that our immediate environment, the one we're either in control or are drawn to, reflects our inner state.

I noted that physically I was strong and my quads were not longer burning on the last steps nor was I out of breath having run up a flight of stairs, which was the case on Days 3 through 5. I forget now what exactly happens in muscles, only that the return of strength reflects their adaptation to ketosis.

I ended up working until 8 pm and then, still concerned by the lack of output since the previous night, decided to do a salt purge. I did not drink enough of water and probably was was still too dehydrated for it to work, whatever. It did not work.

Tired after a long and productive day, I went to bed and fell asleep reading the forum.

Edited by xEva, 11 March 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[xEva]

DAY 8 mar 9 sat

11:00 wt 129 (0, -9), BG 64 = 3.6, ketones ~110

Woke up in a fantastic mood and full of energy and the only negative was that I did not look too hot. The face was puffed, especially around the eyes, and the complexion turned sickly dark. The edema was due to excess sodium of the failed purge attempt on the previous night. Other than esthetics it did not bother me much. The sickly, dark hue combined with the lack of skin tone was very worrisome. I began to have doubts in adsorbent efficiency of activated carbon. While it definitely helped --no headaches and such-- it seemed hardly a substitute for the proper method. Trying to get rid of puffiness around the eyes I committed another cardinal sin against the Nikolayev method by drinking black coffee.

The day was beautiful and I went for a run (under 4 miles). The body felt incredibly light, and on a little incline I felt as if I was flying. Had to slow down going up a steep hill though.

Came home. I did not know how long this euphoric state would last. It was that good on Day 6 too, until it suddenly went south. In the meantime, similar to a CR'd mouse that increases its activity by 50% compared to ad lib, I could not sit still. So I decided to postpone all computer work until I would get tired and vacuumed the house instead.

By ~16:00 I was pleasantly fatigued and turned to less physically demanding chores. By then puffiness came off my face and the complexion improved a bit, but still was dark. I realized that this darkness was from the bile collecting in the lower GI tract that was reabsorbed into the bloodstream with water I drank and redeposited throughout. That's not what I was fasting for. So I relented, repented and returned to the bosom of the true method.

I may as well list its basics now:
1. The fast begins with a purge: 30-40 g of magnesium sulfate (= Epsom salt) in a large glass of water, washed down with 3+ L of plain water. It goes easier on an empty stomach. The new arrivals to the fasting ward drank it at night just before bed.

2. Two enemas a day, AM and PM, for the duration of the fasting phase. Enemas are stopped once the refeeding phase begins.

3. A faster is instructed to drink 1.5 - 2 liters of water per day.

4. Bed rest during the day is not allowed in the fasting phase but only in the first few days of the refeeding phase. A faster is required to be physically active, without excesses, and, if weather permits, walk at least 10 km per day.

5. A faster should sleep under warm covers but with an opened window, at least a crack.

That's about it. Out of the 5 points above this fast I followed only the last 2.

Everybody tries to skip the enemas, and two a day seems excessive even for the most dedicated. But one needs to realize that the protocol was worked out for chronic patients who could not be helped by conventional methods. The rule of thumb is, the sicker one is, the more they should follow the protocol. Having read numerous fasting reports throughout the years, I found this rule of thumb very true. Healthy people can get away with 1 enema a day or even every other day. The pros earn novices' respect and admiration for their reported demigod-like ability to skip enemas entirely and poop on their own every 3 days or so.

People will always adjust the method according to their preferences but, as with anything else, the beginners are better off mastering the right method before they start experimenting with modifications. Modern fasting clinics offer colonics (not everyday), sauna or steam rooms, gyms, massage. In addition to water, some fasters drink green tea or make other brews. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, Americans gave their fasters B vitamins, salt and potassium.

..continued..

Edited by xEva, 12 March 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[xEva]

I noticed a craving for (apple cider) vinegar - is it bad to take any calories whatsoever?
Disregarding social/work constraints, do you have a preference of a long fast over multiple shorter equal total length ones in terms of benefit/cost?

The danger of vinegar or calories in any form is that a taste will reawaken the appetite and this will sabotage the fast. But I remember once using successfully liquid ALCAR, which tasted pretty sweet, even though it had not glucose but other sugars. I took a swig of it when I was getting a headache in the evening of the second day, and it helped me to get over the hurdle within minutes.

Vinegar has acetic acid, which goes well with ketosis. But I think that craving sour tastes like vinegar or sauerkraut juice may be symptoms of ammonia buildup due to bacteria in the intestine. Vinegar/sauerkraut juice neutralizes ammonia and keeps a lid on that type of bacteria. Washing them buggers out works even better; it curbs the cravings and improves how you feel.

According to some people I have talked to, and interviewed, like Paul Wakfer, it only takes 16 hours of fasting to upregulate autophagy. Wakfer's routine was to fast for 20 hours each day, then eat all of his necessary calories over the course of a 4 hour period.

I'd like to know based on what studies he came to this conclusion (I suspect rodents and if so, I don't buy it). And autophagy in what tissues/organs? Even within the same body, it's not the same throughout the board.

If you are going for ketosis and autophagy, then it would take a little longer. However, I wonder about doing exercise to deplete glycogen as an option to bring on ketosis quicker.

I also wondered about that so I experimented with various methods trying to expedite the transition to ketosis. It did not work for me.

Once I went wildly active on the first 2 days of the fast. I ran and jumped and danced and rollerbladed and whatnot. But ketosis still did not start until the morning of the 3rd day. Maybe I should have ran a marathon, but I have always been a sprinter. I did ran out of muscle glycogen though. So that morning I woke up clearheaded, but almost unable to move. I barely dragged myself into the living room, sliding my feet on the floor, as if skiing, because I could not lift my legs. I moved slowly, just like a sloth, and could barely talk. Never again!

I also toyed with drinking MCT oil in the first 2 days. And while I could feel and taste them ketones, this is not the same as the ketotic state, which comes with significant hormonal global changes. When it starts, the image I get is of a bell tolling over a village, the weather changes, different winds blow, people stop and look up at the sky and then hurry home. Starvation ketosis is very different from the fed state and it comes when liver decides that its glycogen is running low.

I think that for novices, especially men, their liver tends to hold out until the last glycogen drop --well, almost-- because, if you don't mind me anthropomorphizing, it sort of does not believe that you actually are going to fast. Why should it? It has not happened in decades. It has always been enough for the glucose level to drop low enough -- and the host invariably grabs something to eat. My first time, especially the night of the second day, was the most difficult thing I've ever done as far as fasting is concerned. The good news is that you need to do it only once. It gets much easier quickly with practice.

I already eat a ketogenic diet and I've been measuring blood ketones. They are always .4 mmol in the morning and go up to ~2 in the evening, after my meal (whether I've worked or not).

My urine ketone results went to trace levels long ago so I stopped measuring. Urine strips measure acetoacetate while blood ketones measure Beta-hydroxybutyrate. Two things happen when you're in ketosis long term. The kidneys lessen excretion of them while the muscle cells start converting acetoacetate into beta-hydroxybutyrate.

That's very interesting dynamics of beta-hydroxybutyrate during a day. And I vaguely recall now that by day 17, which is the average for reaching a new point of homeostasis, urine ketones disappear, even though it is not always universally true (individual variations). I will dig out that study later on, cause for now I'd like to limit my sitting time.

Everything that happens on a ketogenic diet, happens quicker on a fast. The stages and general dynamics are the same, even though they are less pronounced on a diet.

I don't quite agree with the quote from the book that "there is nothing magical in having circulating ketones above 0.5 mMol/L level". For example, autophagy is greatly stimulated in the presence of ketones, the higher the better. The other thing is, according to the 1970s studies, ketones penetrate into the brain easier when their level reaches 3 mMol/L and at higher level still, one completely adapts to starvation. That's a very interesting state, when most loose ~100 g of weight per day. Then people marvel at how little energy it takes to supply what seems at times like abundant energy (in healthy people and within a reasonable timeframe, of course). I am interested in exploring those states.

Edited by xEva, 12 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[xEva]

Day 8 (cont...)

Sorry for dragging this out I had to put enough distance between me and the event in order to be able to talk about it objectively.

I broke the fast late at night on Sat Mar.9, having lasted for only 8 days instead of the planned 10. The main reason was that, having violated several rules of a well tested method, I was bouncing poisons around instead of removing them from the body. I broke the fast by eating ~200g of raw white cabbage followed by 3 celery sticks. It was still early in the fast so this rough food was not a problem.

The other thing was.. ..I was supposed to go out on Sun and I could not get out of that obligation. St.Patrick's Day parade in a small town in a company of sweet, dear friends.. I was planning to be strong and refuse all offerings. My resolve lasted ~3 hours ..and then I succumbed. What followed next was very much in line with the old Buddhist tale about a hungry monk and a sly woman. For those who may not be familiar with it, here is a short synopsis:

A monk knocked on the door and asked a woman for some food. She said that she'll gladly feed him if he complies with only one of her requests: make love to her, kill the goat or drink some of her good, home-made wine. The monk thought it over and decided that drinking the wine was the least of the offenses he could commit. So he drank the wine, ate, drank some more, and then killed the goat and slept with the woman.

I started similarly innocently, with a glass of beer. I had an excuse though, because, while the pipe bands were very good, having seen yet another fire engine followed by the local hospital ambulance, I had to do something to dispel the boredom. So, it was good that I started to eat the night before... on the other hand, if I had not already eaten, I may have resisted that offer.. Well, can't unwind the tape and rerun the experiment with a different set of vars..

But I want to go back. I long to experience again those 2 euphoric days after the first crise, when I could not sit still and when I had so much energy. I am planning to indulge a bit and go back to fasting and do it right this time.

Edited by xEva, 13 March 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[niner]

Wow, xEva, I don't think I could have pulled that off. The dark complexion at the end sounds a little scary. So how are you feeling now? Better than the goat, I hope.

All, I changed the thread title at xEva's request, to reflect the final length of the fast.

[xEva]

Thank you niner! I feel fine, complexion much improved, not just from when it turned dark but I look better than before the fast. Even when it was dark, it was just a pigment (from bilirubin?) the skin was still noticeably silkier than before the fast.

Now the focus of my fasting changed. While just a week ago I was after rejuvenation and such, now I really miss that state of lightness and boundless energy. I want to get there in a good shape, not like this time, and then see how much weight I loose per day being there. It was impossible to tell this time (prob. a pound), because of dehydration, sodium excess and toxicity. Once I figure out how may calories it takes to maintain that state, I will attempt to introduce food carefully. I've been there before and it is a hard balancing act.

The only down side to it is the requirement for almost constant movement, but I hope that it will subside with time. Otherwise it does not fit with my sitting in front of a comp occupation.

I wish someone else would get at least curious about that fabled state and try it out and report their insights. Come on guys



Chupo & okok, how did your 4-day fasts go?

Edited by xEva, 13 March 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[Chupo]

That's very interesting dynamics of beta-hydroxybutyrate during a day. And I vaguely recall now that by day 17, which is the average for reaching a new point of homeostasis, urine ketones disappear, even though it is not always universally true (individual variations). I will dig out that study later on, cause for now I'd like to limit my sitting time.

I don't know why it's lower in the morning as opposed to the evening especially considering the morning is longer after I've eaten than at night. I eat a lot of vegetables too but low protein. It has me perplexed. I wonder if that will change on the fast.

Everything that happens on a ketogenic diet, happens quicker on a fast. The stages and general dynamics are the same, even though they are less pronounced on a diet.

No doubt about that.

I don't quite agree with the quote from the book that "there is nothing magical in having circulating ketones above 0.5 mMol/L level". For example, autophagy is greatly stimulated in the presence of ketones, the higher the better. The other thing is, according to the 1970s studies, ketones penetrate into the brain easier when their level reaches 3 mMol/L and at higher level still, one completely adapts to starvation. That's a very interesting state, when most loose ~100 g of weight per day. Then people marvel at how little energy it takes to supply what seems at times like abundant energy (in healthy people and within a reasonable timeframe, of course). I am interested in exploring those states.

The authors of the book were saying that there was nothing magical about having a ketone level above 5mmol. They recommend a level of between .5 and 5 mmol. It will be interesting to see if anything changes when I begin my fast. I'm off on the 20th - the 22nd specifically. I was too vague about "next week."

Congrats on your fast, exEva! You did great! I've only done five days straight before. On the fith day, I felt a huge burst of adrenaline which made me feel kind of panicky like I get when having a low blood sugar attack. Then, I got really tired and wanted to sleep all day. In fact, I did sleep. Knowing next to nothing about fasting, I took it as a sign to stop fasting so I did even though I felt pretty good the next morning.

I ordered more ketone strips so I'll have more than three. I'll be able to measure several times of day.

[okok]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions, xEva.

I have very little experience fasting, so it wasn't quite the cakewalk you made it look for the most part. My biggest issue was weakness and sleeping hungry.
Hope it gets easier next time, as you supposed.

The positive things: a literal relief and astonishment of what my renals all got rid of, vivid color vision, and just setting me back on track to my old(young) self. Probably the most powerful tool we got at our hands now, i can only recommend it - miss at your own risk.

[Chupo]

Oh yes! I remember the vivid colors when I first went into ketosis. Ketones increase GABA in the brain. Benzodiazapenes had the same effect on me probably for the same reason. They enhance GABA.

[xEva]

I don't know why it's lower in the morning as opposed to the evening especially considering the morning is longer after I've eaten than at night. I eat a lot of vegetables too but low protein. It has me perplexed. I wonder if that will change on the fast.

I would guess that higher ketone level after your evening meal means that the fat you ate was converted by the liver to ketones. And the lower level of ketones in the morning could reflect the diurnal variation in gluconeogenesis. In the morning, cortisol always ups gluconeogenesis leading to a higher glucose level. And glucose/ketones tend to be in inverse relationship. But you could check this by measuring your blood glucose as well as ketones.

I've only done five days straight before. On the fith day, I felt a huge burst of adrenaline which made me feel kind of panicky like I get when having a low blood sugar attack.

That's very interesting. And you were on a ketogenic diet by then?

Then, I got really tired and wanted to sleep all day. In fact, I did sleep. Knowing next to nothing about fasting, I took it as a sign to stop fasting so I did even though I felt pretty good the next morning.

You're lucky. Sleep is a precious commodity on a fast. The faster sleeps but the fast goes on

It is common to experience ups and downs during a fast. And each fast is somewhat different. It's like the saying that you cannot enter the same river twice. But there are some predictable hurdles experienced by all, like transition to ketosis and then the first and the second crises.

I'll go dig out the graph in a Cahill paper that shows the level of beta-hydroxybutyrate throughout the fast, but it's easy to visualize: The line is flat for the first 2 days (while the body lives off liver glycogen), then it starts rising at 45 deg (that's the transition to ketosis). It continues to rise at 45 deg for ~7 days and then almost abruptly changes the angle from 45 to 30 deg (that's the first crise). The line continues to rise at 30 deg for another 7 days and then almost abruptly flattens (that's the second crise). After that, it continues more or less flat for the duration of the fast.

Please do report about your fast. I am very curious how it goes for people on a ketogenic diet.

Edited by xEva, 14 March 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[xEva]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions, xEva.

I have very little experience fasting, so it wasn't quite the cakewalk you made it look for the most part. My biggest issue was weakness and sleeping hungry.
Hope it gets easier next time, as you supposed.

The positive things: a literal relief and astonishment of what my renals all got rid of, vivid color vision, and just setting me back on track to my old(young) self. Probably the most powerful tool we got at our hands now, i can only recommend it - miss at your own risk.

Yes, it gets easier with time. The first time is by far the hardest. I think this is because certain epigenetic changes are actually induced and then appear to stay. That's why you need to do it only once.

Fasting is funny in this regard. The first fast is the hardest and the first days of any fast are harder than the rest. Instead, people think, OMG I have just started and it is already so hard, how much worse it must get later on! Actually, the reverse is true. It gets better. Hunger goes away, physical strength and mental clarity return.

But.. There are contraindications for fasting, especially fasting longer than a week. And there are health conditions and diseases with which people should not fast more than couple of days in a stretch. I hope I will find time to post it later on.

Edited by xEva, 14 March 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[xEva]

Refeeding DAY 1

The title above is only to remind that a model fasting log should not stop at the end of the fasting phase but continue through the refeeding, day by day. I omitted mine, because, far from exemplary, it should have 'don't do it at home' tag. Refeeding is the trickiest and the most difficult part of the fast with many unknowns, especially for me, since my interest in diets is only theoretical (when it comes to eating I mostly follow my instinct).

After a week-long fast, it becomes dangerous to go crazy with excess food, or eating heavy or spicy foods. The reason is that, starting as early as the end of the second week of a water-only fast, and usually during the 3rd week, intestines shed their epithelium and it comes out in strips which are rolled in, similar to unhemmed jersey. Seeing these white rolls of various lengths, often with mucus attached, usually freaks people out. Some take them for 'worms'. But these are not worms and nothing to be alarmed about. Instead, many chronic bowel problems are greatly improved or cured following this event (after a proper refeeding phase!).

This is similar to skin peeling off after a sunburn. It does not peel off leaving raw meat exposed, but only after a gentle, new skin has already formed beneath. So, indulging in heavy, harsh, spicy foods at this stage can irritate the newly formed and still thin intestinal epithelium. There was a case of cecal diverticulum induced by excessive gas formation following the ingestion of miso spiced with fermented soybean paste right after a 2-week fast. Which brings another point. One has to be very careful and slow in introducing probiotics or fermented foods with live cultures.

The other real danger of the refeeding done wrong is the invagination of the intestine (when the intestine sort of tuns inside out onto itself due to strong cramping), which will lead to death due to bowel hypoxia, unless operated within several hours. Again, cramping that strong can be induced by spicy, pickled or rough foods. I must say that, having read hundreds of fasting logs, I saw only one such case, and it was induced by a jar of spicy pickles in vinegar after a 4+ week-long fast. But it is generally believed that going out for a big mac with mustard, ketchup and fries after a 2-week+ fast should land one in the hospital, if not the cemetery.

There are many methods of breaking a fast. My favorite is fresh, home-made whey (the liquid left after making yogurt). It is wise to pasteurize it for the first refeeding day, so that only bacterial metabolites, without actual bacteria, are introduced and gently stimulate a right immune response.

Many Russian fasters break the fast with greatly diluted citrus juices, starting with 1:3 or even 1:4 juice to water proportions and increasing the juice portion slowly, day by day. They usually continue to loose weight on this,and usually at a quicker rate than in the last days of their fasts.

The traditional Russian method of breaking a fast, which, however, evolved during scarce Soviet times and may simply reflect their austerity, is very thin, actually liquid, oatmeal and the water left after boiling dried fruit. But! modern fasters who tried it and compared with other methods, all recommended it.

Whatever you do, do not allow yourself to binge after a fast, which is easier said than done. Avoiding high glycemic index foods, and sticking to the lowest of the low, is reported to help very much this regard.


There is much more to say about the reffeeding phase of the fast, but have to run now

Edited by xEva, 14 March 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Mind]

I might have missed it. Why was the fast halted at 8 days, instead of running for 10 days as originally planned.

[xEva]

I might have missed it. Why was the fast halted at 8 days, instead of running for 10 days as originally planned.

I broke the fast earlier, mainly because I had some unanticipated problems with it after having cut many corners. Now I also think that I had anxiety about having to go out on the following day for a party. Most likely, it was a subconscious decision. My motivation almost a week ago is very unclear to me now as, chemically, I am a different person now than I was then (I have different preferences, different cold and exercise tolerance, different outlook on life and different mood).

Edited by xEva, 15 March 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[lourdaud]

Thanks for a highly interesting thread, xEva! I've been following your project with great interest.

I'd like to know what you think of this.
I've been planning to get on a ketogenic diet, starting with a fast that'd last until the state of ketosis is reached. Do you think it'd be wise to start off the diet with a longer fast, say 7 - 10 days, even though I'm not a very experienced faster?
I've been on a fairly low-carb diet for the last three years and I tried a ketogenic diet for three months some two years ago. I also have some, albeit limited, experience with intermittent fasting. I've been on a high-carb, high-sugar diet for the last three months or so however..

Something probably worth mentioning is that I suffer from ADD, ASD, CFS, among other ill conditions. (Any thoughts on how fasting might affect focus/working memory and depressive symptoms?)

Edited by lourdaud, 15 March 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[xEva]

lourdaud, switching to a ketogenic diet after a fast is a good idea. 2-3 days is plenty to transition to ketosis. Fasting for 7-10 days (=until the "first crise") could be difficult for a novice, but, if successful, this can lead to a lower demand for calories (for the same lifestyle). This is due to the brain adapting to ketosis that happens around that timeframe is coupled with a greatly improved and augmented mitochondrial metobolism. A more efficient metabolism results in a smaller demand for calories for the same amount of work.

However, I have not seen studies that specifically dealt with trying to maintain this higher level of ketosis on a diet (but maybe I missed them -?). I saw studies where children were fasted for 2 and up to 4 days before the switch to a therapeutic ketogenic diet (but keep in mind that children respond to a fast and transition to ketosis much quicker than adults).

I'm not familiar with ASD -- Autism Spectrum Disorder? (not aerospace division lol?) so I can't comment on this. As for depression, you probably know that brain operates better on ketones and my brain specifically loves them. I actually tend to go into hypomania starting 2-3 days into the fast. And Nikolayev began his exploration of fasting trying to help his 'mental patients', specifically schizophrenia and severe depression (he was led to it by some historical reasons, the details of which escape me now). I remember reading though that, in Nikolayev's experience, schizophrenia responded only if the fasting therapy was initiated within 5 years of the onset of the disease. Then 3-4 weeks-long fasts, once a year, plus a healthy diet, were able to keep it in remission.

Regarding the chronic fatigue syndrome and how it will respond to fasting, this depends on what sort of bugs cause it in your case. I was planning to do a writeup on the immune sys and fasting.. ..it's hard to squeeze it into one post.. The gist of it is that most bugs succumb to upregulation of autophagy, which is required not only for recycling of proteins and keeping cells tidy, but also for the proper workings of the various aspects of adaptive immunity, starting with protein presentation by the major histocompatibility complex (I know). And of course nothing upregulates autophagy quite as well as lack of nutrients characteristic of a fast.

There is a small subset of bugs though ((both viruses and bacteria), which exploit autophagy for their own replication. This sort of bugs begin to proliferate starting with the 3rd-4rd day of fasting and the symptoms they cause get progressively worse -- up to a point, when the immune sys, which has so many tricks up its sleeve besides autophagy, finds other ways of dealing with them. But for this to work one must have enough resources going into the fast (I will illustrate this idea on the 3 concrete examples in the following post).

What this means for you: go into the fast like into the war, i.e. well prepared, after a period of good, nutritious diet and adequate physical activity, and with some extra weight to support you. If the symptoms of your chronic disease start getting worse, it is wise to gently break the fast and proceed into the diet of your choice.

If you want to get rid of your chronic conditions, you should fast 24-36h per week for a while, and then, after you fully restore yourself from the previous fast, try to do another 4-7 day fast again. This is called cascade fasting and it can cure chronic conditions caused by pathogens that exploit autophagy. The principle here is that fasting resets the immune sys (more on this later) and the bugs that are not removed by autophagy during the fast are dealt with later, during the refeeding stage and the following good diet and healthy lifestyle.

So, If I were you, I'd plan for no more than 4 days fast. Don't overdo it. Simple 24-36h fasts once a week, if done regularly for a stretch, can greatly improve one's health and serve as a stepping stone for a successful longer fast.

Please keep a log of your fast and refeeding phase and post it, so that we can all learn from your expetience

Edited by xEva, 16 March 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[Shepard]

According to some people I have talked to, and interviewed, like Paul Wakfer, it only takes 16 hours of fasting to upregulate autophagy. Wakfer's routine was to fast for 20 hours each day, then eat all of his necessary calories over the course of a 4 hour period.

In mice, you see blunted autophagy upon refeeding after prolonged fasting (>24 hours, if memory serves). Considering that and the fact that autophagic rates are both tissue and individual-specific, it makes the idea of prolonged fasting questionable under the "cleansing" idea.

Edited by Shepard, 19 March 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[1kgcoffee]

Update please! How are you feeling now?

[niner]

In mice, you see blunted autophagy upon refeeding after prolonged fasting (>24 hours, if memory serves). Considering that and the fact that autophagic rates are both tissue and individual-specific, it makes the idea of prolonged fasting questionable under the "cleansing" idea.

You mean blunted to below the level seen before the fast? I'd expect to see autophagy upregulated during a fast, then return to normal levels once nutrients are re-supplied. Does it not work that way?

[Shepard]

Yeah, 48 hour fasting causes an initial blunting of autophagy upon refeeding relative to the fed state. In mouse hepatocytes, anyway.

[xEva]

In mice, you see blunted autophagy upon refeeding after prolonged fasting (>24 hours, if memory serves). Considering that and the fact that autophagic rates are both tissue and individual-specific, it makes the idea of prolonged fasting questionable under the "cleansing" idea.

I do not understand bolded part. Why prolonged fasting becomes questionalbe under the "cleansing" idea? Cleansing only takes care of toxicity which often is the problem for novices. It makes fasting bearable, allowing people to maintain their more or less regular schedule, instead of lying around useless with a headache, counting the hours of their fast.




@all:

sorry for disappearing. I did another experiment just yesterday. I fasted since Sun night, and on Tue morning had to shovel snow (9-11 AM). It snowed heavily since Mon, then rained then snowed again, which resulted in heavy thick crust. So I had a very good workout, which lasted over 2 hours. The air was delish. When I was done, I was euphoric and did other chores and around 3 PM had a compulsion to run, especially enjoying a slight incline uphill.

Around 7 pm I ate though. Already in couple of hours I began feeling this awful pain in my arms and back building in. The lactic acid. Now I am stiff and in pain. But I am pretty sure that if I continued to fast, I would not have this pain now. Then all the lactic acid would be mopped up and used up to maintain the basic metabolism.

The lactic acid buildup in my arms and back brought up by shoveling heavy snow yesterday led me to question the current "wisdom" about when to eat in regard to a workout. I come to the conclusion that not eating for a stretch, proportional to the intensity of the workout, not only prevents muscle pain from developing but also promotes mitochondrial-genesis. I heard from an elite Russian trainer on youtube that mitochondria mop up the H+ and thus do not allow lactic acid to build up, thus allowing a muscle to work tirelessly, as long as the supply or glycogen or fat lasts. He says that many notions about metabolism in muscles still popular today are outdated and that the true power is not in anaerobic glycolysis but in development of mitochondria. "Then a man becomes tireless and can train many times a day without hurting himself".

http://www.youtube . com/watch?v=BYgYkLdOmAk <-- The talk is in Russian.


Also these days I was watching the difference in me between a fasted and a fed state. In a fasted state, I keep my room at a balmy 14C, while in the fed state 20+C seems chilly and I crank the thermostat all the way up. In a fed state, I become very lazy and my favorite pastime consists of reclining with the comp on my lap, reading the net while chewing something yummy. In a fasted state, I find it very hard to sit still. I jump at every opportunity to do a physically demanding work or run, and I don't ever have a post-workout pain in the muscles. In a fasted state I tend to be euphoric, while in a fed state, I often get depressed and mentally dull.

[Shepard]

I do not understand bolded part. Why prolonged fasting becomes questionalbe under the "cleansing" idea? Cleansing only takes care of toxicity which often is the problem for novices. It makes fasting bearable, allowing people to maintain their more or less regular schedule, instead of lying around useless with a headache, counting the hours of their fast.

I have to admit, I haven't read the thread and don't actually know why you're fasting. I just saw Mind's mention of autophagy and chimed in regarding excessive fasting and autophagy. That said, the idea of a fast being cleansing to the body only seems to make sense in the light of macro- and microautophagy and perhaps some gut health tidbits. If autophagic rates in humans are excessively blunted upon refeeding after prolonged fasting, it does not make it an appealing prospect, particularly in cases of prior pathogenic conditions.

Regarding the tissue and individual specific issue, it's not a cut and dry thing as to how much benefit you get from fasting. Autophagy in skeletal muscle ramps up rather quickly across the board, levels in the liver are more prone to individual variation, and you don't see much increased autophagy in the brain from fasting.

Edited by Shepard, 20 March 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[xEva]

Sorry Shepard, I misunderstood you at first

... If autophagic rates in humans are excessively blunted upon refeeding after prolonged fasting, it does not make it an appealing prospect, particularly in cases of prior pathogenic conditions.

That's how I understand it. The main benefit of fasting is upregulation of autophagy and cellular cleanup that comes with it. My understanding is that it goes back to baseline upon refeeding. Otherwise, the way I understand it, autophagy is stimulated by excessive stress, such as heat or cold, hypoxia, intracellular infection, or damage to some of the cellular components or just proteins. Thus a bit of a cellular poison can induce atophagy -- not sure this is a good or as good a thing as 'nice and clean' fasting.

Also, in the past decade, there has been lotsa research showing how different intracellular pathogens, viruses and bacteria, manage to persist in a colonized cell by disrupting autophagy in its various stages (ex. maturation of lysosome or fusing of vacuole with a lysosome, etc). I believe that it is this sort of jammed autophagy that is allowed to come to a fruition during nutrient deprivation of a fast. Besides, the pathogens are also affected by the nutrient deprivation and produce less metabolites that impede the proper functioning of a cell, allowing it to overcome them.

Regarding the tissue and individual specific issue, it's not a cut and dry thing as to how much benefit you get from fasting. Autophagy in skeletal muscle ramps up rather quickly across the board, levels in the liver are more prone to individual variation, and you don't see much increased autophagy in the brain from fasting.

I wonder on what you base your opinion. There was a study, discussed recently here somewhere, with a misleading title Short-term fasting induces profound neuronal autophagy. The title is misleading, because it is mice that they fasted for 'only' 48h to demonstrate neuronal autophagy, and mice have super-fast metabolism in comparison with humans. It is believed that a 48h fast for a mouse approximately equates to a month-long fast for a man. Only because autophagy is very difficult if not impossible to assess in vivo, is not a reason to deny it happening outright in a brain during a long fast.

Edited by xEva, 21 March 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Shepard]

Thanks for linking that paper. It reminded me that I came across the title not too long ago. I'll have to look through it. This paper is the most recent work that I know of mentioning no increased markers of enhanced autophagy in the brain, and the idea has always been that this is due to the brain's relatively constant energy availability (other than ketones and CMA, perhaps).

Just out of curiosity, has anyone already perused the neuronal autophagy paper and this review and have any commentary?

Edited by Shepard, 21 March 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[Chupo]

It's been 29 hours since I last ate. I was a little hungry around the time I usually eat but it was mild and passed.

Ketones 2.3 mmol
Glucose 85 mg/dl (4.72 mmol)

I went to get some urine ketone strips but apparently Wal-mart doesn't sell them, which was the only place open. I don't think I'm spilling ketones though. When I stopped spilling them in my urine, I stopped tasting them in my saliva as well and I haven't tasted any yet.

I just got my DNA results from 23andme. I'm ApoE2/3. So, I guess my low carb diet was a good choice for me.

[xEva]

It's been 29 hours since I last ate. I was a little hungry around the time I usually eat but it was mild and passed.

Ketones 2.3 mmol

Wow ketones this high already! Starting with a ketogenic diet you're ~3 days ahead.

[Chupo]

Day two.

Ketones 4.2 mmol
Glucose 64 mg/dl 3.6 mmol/l

Wow ketones this high already! Starting with a ketogenic diet you're ~3 days ahead.

Yeah, I didn't have any glycogen to run through and I'm sure many pathways are already "turned on". They just need to be upregulated some more.

Edited by Chupo, 22 March 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[xEva]

Chupo, that's very interesting. Do you monitor your weight loss? And please post how you feel too