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Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]

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#61 lostfalco

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:08 AM

Yes, my friends...some day soon. Let's hear it for exponential growth! http://www.technolog...emory-implants/


IMHO The future will probably turn out more like this: :laugh:
http://en.wikipedia....2Schismatrix.22

  • Shapers: Group that alters the body through genetic modification and specialized mental training. They originate from the colonies orbiting Jupiter and Saturn.
  • Mechanists: Group that modifies bodies through computer software and external alterations. The Mechanists have been at war with the Shapers for decades, fighting over whose technology is more powerful and efficient. They originate from the asteroid belt's colonies.
...
  • Zen Serotonin: A cult that uses biofeedback (principally neurochemical-deploying biomonitors and sleep-monitoring beds) to maintain zen-like calm and detachment. The "Nonmovement" (as it is sometimes called) looks to slow the process of societal change, and has a strong focus on social order.


My guess is that we will ultimately be completely non-biological...bodies, genes, etc. are so fragile. I'm much more certain, however, that my guesses about the future are usually wrong. ha

#62 peakplasma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

Deleted.

Forget this entire post. I should read the thread next time... THIS is it. Already posted by YadaYada.

Edited by peakplasma, 02 May 2013 - 08:10 PM.


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#63 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

Deleted.

Forget this entire post. I should read the thread next time... THIS is it. Already posted by YadaYada.

With protective glasses it comes out around $100. Also, I've seen studies that show the IR should be pulsed at 10Hz for optimal effects.

#64 peakplasma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:17 PM

10Hz? Give it to me in English, doc.

Have you all seen that Dave Asprey video where he recommends 880nm at 170mw?

#65 lostfalco

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

Deleted.

Forget this entire post. I should read the thread next time... THIS is it. Already posted by YadaYada.

With protective glasses it comes out around $100. Also, I've seen studies that show the IR should be pulsed at 10Hz for optimal effects.


You read Hamblin. Very nice. A small word of caution...he seems to be affiliated with certain devices so just keep that in mind. He also seems like a good guy...not accusing him of anything. I just think we all know that affiliations are good to be aware of when critically thinking about things.

I have never tried pulsing. If anyone does please let us know what you find.

#66 dreth7

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

I'm super interested in how this works out for you two. Keep us clued in as the studies already look beyond promising.

This is something I would be seriously considering when I begin studying for boards in a year. Every advantage will help!

#67 peakplasma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

Is anyone actually trying this? YadaYada, are you buying one?

Health Canada has strict control over high powered lasers because some idiots tried to crash a plane so I'm probably not going to manage it.

Edited by peakplasma, 02 May 2013 - 09:32 PM.


#68 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:48 PM

Is anyone actually trying this? YadaYada, are you buying one?

Health Canada has strict control over high powered lasers because some idiots tried to crash a plane so I'm probably not going to manage it.

Not at the moment. I need to see more info on it. I also have a shitload of other things that I am hopping on getting. (IDRA-21, BPAP, tDCS, Ciproxifan.) Gotta stretch this out.

#69 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

Prolly will make my own simple tDCS and then see about effects.

#70 mait

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:00 PM

The absorption peak for cytochrome c oxidase should be around 670nm and 830nm (I have also seen references to 660nm and 840nm).

Here is one reference that should be interesting to you:

Abstract: Currently, light therapies are widely used in both human and veterinarian medicine. The application of light to clinical therapeutics includes: photodynamic therapy, used to kill cancer cells; UVA therapies, used to treat a variety of skin diseases; and photobiomodulation, used to promote cell growth and recovery from injury. Photobiomodulation uses light emitting diodes (LEDs) or low energy lasers, which emit light in the visible red to near infrared range. Light in this range penetrates tissue reasonably well, lacks the carcinogenic/mutagenic properties of UV light, and acts on an endogenous photoreceptor which likely acts to initiate light-altered signaling pathways. Although early studies identified mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase as an endogenous photoreceptor for photobiomodulation, the cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying photobiomodulation have not been clear. Three recent findings provide important new insight. First, nitric oxide has been implicated. Second, cytochrome c oxidase, an enzyme known to reduce oxygen to water at the end of the mitochondrial respiratory chain, has been shown to have a new enzymatic activity -- the reduction of nitrite to nitric oxide. This nitrite reductase activity is elevated under hypoxic conditions but also occurs under normoxia. And third, low intensity light enhances nitric oxide synthesis by cytochrome c oxidase without altering its ability to reduce oxygen. From these findings, we propose that cytochrome c oxidase functions in photobiomodulation by producing nitric oxide, a signaling molecule which can then function in both intra- and extracellular signaling pathways. We also propose that the effectiveness of photobiomodulation is under the control of tissue oxygen and nitrite levels.

//---//

These studies have demonstrated: (1) that light at 670 nm reverses the ability of tetrototoxin, a sodium channel blocker, to diminish mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase activity in neuronal cells (Wong-Riley et al., 2001); and (2) that NIR light reverses the toxic effects of methanol on mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase in rat retinas, resulting in improved vision (Eells et al., 2003). More direct evidence for the involvement of cytochrome c oxidase in photobiomodulation comes from studies on neuronal cell death (Wong-Riley et al., 2005).

//--//

These explanations are applicable under normoxic conditions in which the effective wavelengths (670 nm & 830 nm) for photobiomodulation correspond to the oxidized heme a3 of cytochrome c oxidase, and in which the nitric oxide is produced predominantly by nitric oxide synthase.


So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

Edited by mait, 02 May 2013 - 10:17 PM.


#71 peakplasma

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 10:36 PM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?

Edited by peakplasma, 02 May 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#72 lostfalco

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:10 PM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

Focused energy matters. Think kid + magnifying glass + ants + feelings of angry powerlessness.

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?



#73 lostfalco

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:40 AM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?


Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3065857/

Quote: "LLLT uses low-powered laser light in the range of 1-1000 mW, at wavelengths from 632-1064 nm, to stimulate a biological response. These lasers emit no heat, sound, or vibration. Instead of generating a thermal effect, LLLT acts by inducing a photochemical reaction in the cell, a process referred to as biostimulation or photobiomodulation. Photo-biology works on the principle that, when light hits certain molecules called chromophores, the photon energy causes electrons to be excited and jump from low-energy orbits to higher-energy orbits. In nature, this stored energy can be used by the system to perform various cellular tasks, such as photosynthesis and photomorphogenesis."

Comment--If it's hot or you feel any heat at all...stop. You're doing it wrong. I can verify from personal experience that the Vetrolaser 808nm and the Tendlite 660nm are not hot at all when placed directly on the skin for minutes at a time. I did not experiment enough with lasers or led arrays purchased off of ebay or alibaba to give any personal insight. As always, any choice you make is your own and you should never blindly trust some random dude on the internet...he could be a chick with leukemia trying to derail your senior season Heisman trophy campaign before being killed by drug dealers and miraculously raised from the dead (long-winded disclaimer over).

#74 lostfalco

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:01 AM

Here's a pilot study for depression in humans that used 810nm at 250mw/cm2...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796659/

I pretty much just used this as a pattern.

They stimulated for 4 minutes at 10-20 EEG sites F3 and F4. This study also talks about the ANSI standard of 320 mW/cm2 on the skin as an irradiance limit. Sry, I think I said 325 mW/cm2 earlier.

Here's where I bought mine...http://www.vetrolaser.com/

Sorry, I know it's frickin' expensive.
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#75 renfr

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:43 AM

Here's a pilot study for depression in humans that used 810nm at 250mw/cm2...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796659/

I pretty much just used this as a pattern.

They stimulated for 4 minutes at 10-20 EEG sites F3 and F4. This study also talks about the ANSI standard of 320 mW/cm2 on the skin as an irradiance limit. Sry, I think I said 325 mW/cm2 earlier.

Here's where I bought mine...http://www.vetrolaser.com/

Sorry, I know it's frickin' expensive.

I wouldn't touch a 808nm laser with a barge pole : http://www.pzlaser.c...3/0419/242.html
Apparently 808nm causes permanent hair removal, that is extremely scary. Another safer spectrum should be used or use very cautiously on the forehead.

#76 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

Sick results. Wonder what would happen with tDCS... :mellow:

Here's a pilot study for depression in humans that used 810nm at 250mw/cm2...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796659/

I pretty much just used this as a pattern.

They stimulated for 4 minutes at 10-20 EEG sites F3 and F4. This study also talks about the ANSI standard of 320 mW/cm2 on the skin as an irradiance limit. Sry, I think I said 325 mW/cm2 earlier.

Here's where I bought mine...http://www.vetrolaser.com/

Sorry, I know it's frickin' expensive.

I wouldn't touch a 808nm laser with a barge pole : http://www.pzlaser.c...3/0419/242.html
Apparently 808nm causes permanent hair removal, that is extremely scary. Another safer spectrum should be used or use very cautiously on the forehead.

That machine delivers 100J of energy. Wayyyy more than a mere 200mw

#77 lostfalco

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:07 AM

Here's a pilot study for depression in humans that used 810nm at 250mw/cm2...http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2796659/

I pretty much just used this as a pattern.

They stimulated for 4 minutes at 10-20 EEG sites F3 and F4. This study also talks about the ANSI standard of 320 mW/cm2 on the skin as an irradiance limit. Sry, I think I said 325 mW/cm2 earlier.

Here's where I bought mine...http://www.vetrolaser.com/

Sorry, I know it's frickin' expensive.

I wouldn't touch a 808nm laser with a barge pole : http://www.pzlaser.c...3/0419/242.html
Apparently 808nm causes permanent hair removal, that is extremely scary. Another safer spectrum should be used or use very cautiously on the forehead.


Wavelength and energy density are two different things. Check the articles and authors I have mentioned for more info. =)

Vetrolaser = 200mW/cm2 = "cold" laser

Your specs:
specifications:
1. Laser Type Diode Laser (Semiconductor laser)
2. Laser wavelength 808nm
3. Sapphire size 10*12mm

!!!4. Energy Density 1~120j/cm2 !!!

5. Pulse width 10~1400ms
6. Repetition frequency 0.5~10HZ
7. Cooling System Sapphire contact cooling style

You're right though...if you aim that big ass laser at your forehead, you're gonna need a prefrontal cortex transplant immediately.

#78 peakplasma

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:17 AM

Also, infrared carries less energy than visible light. I believe the most dangerous spectrum is near blu-ray.

#79 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:37 AM

Wow the results in that study are pretty impressive, after only a single session too. Lostfalco, if you have time, would you be so kind as to write a more detailed account of your experience with LLLT? I am very, very interested in acquiring a vetrolaser, but it's a lot of money. I wonder if you could rectify hemispheric activation imbalance by firing it only at your subdominant hemisphere... I could do with a sparkier right brain :-)

#80 peakplasma

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

Wow the results in that study are pretty impressive, after only a single session too. Lostfalco, if you have time, would you be so kind as to write a more detailed account of your experience with LLLT? I am very, very interested in acquiring a vetrolaser, but it's a lot of money. I wonder if you could rectify hemispheric activation imbalance by firing it only at your subdominant hemisphere... I could do with a sparkier right brain :-)

This e-bay laser is basically the same thing.

#81 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

I don't know if I'd want to fire an untested, unmedically sanctioned laser at my brain. What if the output was off? Thanks for the link though, I'll do more research when I'm on a computer.

#82 mait

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:13 AM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?



But it is 830nm laser with 200mW output. Where do You see the 300mW output???? I am still a little bit confused about the the total output of Ventolaser? Is the claimed 200mW output total per 3 laser diodes or is it 3 x 200mW?

#83 lostfalco

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:39 PM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?



But it is 830nm laser with 200mW output. Where do You see the 300mW output???? I am still a little bit confused about the the total output of Ventolaser? Is the claimed 200mW output total per 3 laser diodes or is it 3 x 200mW?


Source: phone call with Vetrolaser seller Dr. Kamen

Specs: Vetrolaser 808 nm, 200mW TOTAL, 66ish per diode

Do not inundate him with phone calls. :) One other trusted person volunteer, call, verify, and report back...please. 800-742-8433

Disclaimer: NO affiliation with anyone; read official studies and do your own thing :)
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#84 mait

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:56 PM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?



But it is 830nm laser with 200mW output. Where do You see the 300mW output???? I am still a little bit confused about the the total output of Ventolaser? Is the claimed 200mW output total per 3 laser diodes or is it 3 x 200mW?


Source: phone call with Vetrolaser seller Dr. Kamen

Specs: Vetrolaser 808 nm, 200mW TOTAL, 66ish per diode

Do not inundate him with phone calls. :) One other trusted person volunteer, call, verify, and report back...please. 800-742-8433

Disclaimer: NO affiliation with anyone; read official studies and do your own thing :)



Thank You!!!

#85 lostfalco

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:05 PM

So coming back to Vetrolaser 808nm/200mW. From picture it seems to have 3 diodes. Now the question: is it 3 times 200mW so total output equals 600mW or is it the other way around 200mW is the total output per 3 laser diodes? If the 3 x 200mW calculation is correct I will buy 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/...item3ccfd8683a.

You sure you want the 300mW one? Apparently, an IR laser can light a match at 200mW. Source

And here is a Youtube video of a guy burning stuff with a 200mW red laser... Does anyone know what mW the Far IR frequencies are too hot?



But it is 830nm laser with 200mW output. Where do You see the 300mW output???? I am still a little bit confused about the the total output of Ventolaser? Is the claimed 200mW output total per 3 laser diodes or is it 3 x 200mW?


Source: phone call with Vetrolaser seller Dr. Kamen

Specs: Vetrolaser 808 nm, 200mW TOTAL, 66ish per diode

Do not inundate him with phone calls. :) One other trusted person volunteer, call, verify, and report back...please. 800-742-8433

Disclaimer: NO affiliation with anyone; read official studies and do your own thing :)



Thank You!!!


Happy to (hopefully) help!

#86 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

Disclaimer: NO affiliation with anyone; read official studies and do your own thing :)


Does this mean you won't be giving a more in-depth review of your experience with LLLT?.. I can't tell whether or not you were indirectly responding to my earlier request. Since you are one of the few healthy people who have tried it your experience will be quite informative.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 03 May 2013 - 05:09 PM.


#87 Colli

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

I've ordered a laser illuminator from here:
http://odicforce.com...mW-Infrared-(IR)-808nm-Laser-Illuminator.html?sessid=V6HbVlomRewVKw5lcBdwEX7C91cwMcXwVKqPJuW6U8nnNHxZFz6oDMSFTLJ1MLgJ&shop_param=cid%3D42%26aid%3DOFL244%26

Hopefully this should do the job.

#88 peakplasma

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:13 PM

I've ordered a laser illuminator from here:
http://odicforce.com...mW-Infrared-(IR)-808nm-Laser-Illuminator.html?sessid=V6HbVlomRewVKw5lcBdwEX7C91cwMcXwVKqPJuW6U8nnNHxZFz6oDMSFTLJ1MLgJ&shop_param=cid%3D42%26aid%3DOFL244%26

Hopefully this should do the job.

Awesome. Please start a thread with your experiences when it arrives.

This study was really interesting. Unlike the stroke study where participants heads were shaved, this one was just applied directly to forehead.

It used a 810 nm unit "delivering an irradiance of 250 mW/cm2 when applied at 4 mm from the skin". "The treatment consisted of exposure to the light for 4 minutes (total delivered fluence per site of 60 J/cm2) at each of 2 sites on the forehead that correspond to the 10-20 EEG sites, F3, and F4."

Edited by peakplasma, 03 May 2013 - 09:35 PM.


#89 8bitmore

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:40 PM

I've ordered a laser illuminator from here:
http://odicforce.com...mW-Infrared-(IR)-808nm-Laser-Illuminator.html?sessid=V6HbVlomRewVKw5lcBdwEX7C91cwMcXwVKqPJuW6U8nnNHxZFz6oDMSFTLJ1MLgJ&shop_param=cid%3D42%26aid%3DOFL244%26

Hopefully this should do the job.

Awesome. Please start a thread with your experiences when it arrives.

This study was really interesting. Unlike the stroke study where participants heads were shaved, this one was just applied directly to forehead.

It used a 810 nm unit "delivering an irradiance of 250 mW/cm2 when applied at 4 mm from the skin". "The treatment consisted of exposure to the light for 4 minutes (total delivered fluence per site of 60 J/cm2) at each of 2 sites on the forehead that correspond to the 10-20 EEG sites, F3, and F4."


It might be awesome. I find it a bit disconcerting that the odicforce laser page describes the light as non-visible: as far as I can tell all other 8XX nm LED setups used for healing/brain-energizing definitely output in the visible spectrum - see for example Dave Asprey's demonstration here:

All the same, since the device is ordered: by all means report back :)

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#90 mait

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:57 PM

I've ordered a laser illuminator from here:
http://odicforce.com...mW-Infrared-(IR)-808nm-Laser-Illuminator.html?sessid=V6HbVlomRewVKw5lcBdwEX7C91cwMcXwVKqPJuW6U8nnNHxZFz6oDMSFTLJ1MLgJ&shop_param=cid%3D42%26aid%3DOFL244%26

Hopefully this should do the job.



Why not buy 3 of those: http://odicforce.com...d=43&aid=OFL90 ???





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