The most common form of heart failure occurs with normal systolic function and often involves cardiac hypertrophy in the elderly. To clarify the biological mechanisms that drive cardiac hypertrophy in aging, we tested the influence of circulating factors using heterochronic parabiosis, a surgical technique in which joining of animals of different ages leads to a shared circulation. After 4 weeks of exposure to the circulation of young mice, cardiac hypertrophy in old mice dramatically regressed, accompanied by reduced cardiomyocyte size and molecular remodeling. Reversal of age-related hypertrophy was not attributable to hemodynamic or behavioral effects of parabiosis, implicating a blood-borne factor. Using modified aptamer-based proteomics, we identified the TGF-β superfamily member GDF11 as a circulating factor in young mice that declines with age. Treatment of old mice to restore GDF11 to youthful levels recapitulated the effects of parabiosis and reversed age-related hypertrophy, revealing a therapeutic opportunity for cardiac aging.
Maybe that's why my father lived much longer than it seemed he should have: at one point he was getting at least 1 unit of blood transfused per week, for a year. The younger blood must have improved his heart function.
So this begs the question: is there a way to increase GDF11 in one's blood, or should we be buying it as a supplement and injecting it (or perhaps is it bioavailble through the oral route)?
Hm.. not by oral route I'd think. It's a 407 amino acid protein:
And having too much of it or in the wrong place seems bad:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17912435 Clinical significance of growth differentiation factor 11 in colorectal cancer.
Growth differentiation factor 11 (GDF11), a member of the transforming growth factor-beta superfamily and bone morphogenetic protein (BMP) subfamily, plays a role in regulation of development and differentiation. Although some members of BMP subfamily have been reported to correlate with cancer, the significance of GDF11 has not been studied in a clinical oncology setting. The current study explored the clinicopathological significance of GDF11 expression in colorectal cancer. Quantitative real-time reverse transcription-PCR in colorectal cancer specimens obtained from 130 patients showed that GDF11 mRNA expression in cancer tissue was significantly higher than in normal tissue (p=0.001). Tumors were classified as high GDF11 expression (n=65) or low GDF11 expression (n=65). Patients whose tumors had high GDF11 expression showed a high frequency of lymph node metastasis (p=0.049) and had more cancer-related deaths (p=0.040). Furthermore, the patients with high GDF11 expression had significantly poorer overall survival than those with low expression (p=0.0334). Although multivariate analysis showed that GDF11 was not an independent prognostic factor, these findings suggest that GDF11 may be a novel diagnostic and prognostic biomarker in patients with colorectal cancer.
Still, it would be good to know more about when it is useful and if there's a way to keep youthful levels of it circulating.
So this begs the question: is there a way to increase GDF11 in one's blood, or should we be buying it as a supplement and injecting it (or perhaps is it bioavailble through the oral route)?
Hm.. not by oral route I'd think. It's a 407 amino acid protein:
You could supplement it (yes, injection only, I'm afraid) but I think it would only make sense if you were suffering from cardiac hypertrophy. It can be bought in purified form on the open market, but I don't think you'll like the price, assuming it would require milligram quantities. If all you need are nanograms (which I kinda doubt, but you never know) then people with hypertrophic heart failure can go to town. I posted on it in the thread Mind linked.
It's quite possible that cancer is the cause in this relationship, and not the result. GDF11 increases through supplementation/injection may not promote cancer formation, but cancers may spin the normal expression of this out of control. Hard to say off hand.
And having too much of it or in the wrong place seems bad:
Growth differentiation factor 11 (GDF11), a member of the transforming growth factor-beta superfamily and bone morphogenetic protein (BMP) subfamily, plays a role in regulation of development and differentiation. Although some members of BMP subfamily have been reported to correlate with cancer, the significance of GDF11 has not been studied in a clinical oncology setting. The current study explored the clinicopathological significance of GDF11 expression in colorectal cancer. Quantitative real-time reverse transcription-PCR in colorectal cancer specimens obtained from 130 patients showed that GDF11 mRNA expression in cancer tissue was significantly higher than in normal tissue (p=0.001). Tumors were classified as high GDF11 expression (n=65) or low GDF11 expression (n=65). Patients whose tumors had high GDF11 expression showed a high frequency of lymph node metastasis (p=0.049) and had more cancer-related deaths (p=0.040). Furthermore, the patients with high GDF11 expression had significantly poorer overall survival than those with low expression (p=0.0334). Although multivariate analysis showed that GDF11 was not an independent prognostic factor, these findings suggest that GDF11 may be a novel diagnostic and prognostic biomarker in patients with colorectal cancer.
Still, it would be good to know more about when it is useful and if there's a way to keep youthful levels of it circulating.
i dont need more evidence to believe transfusion of young blood will halt or even reverse all illnesses. how big is the waiting list for young blood? it should be like donor list. who is signing the list?
So this begs the question: is there a way to increase GDF11 in one's blood, or should we be buying it as a supplement and injecting it (or perhaps is it bioavailble through the oral route)?
Hm.. not by oral route I'd think. It's a 407 amino acid protein:
You could supplement it (yes, injection only, I'm afraid) but I think it would only make sense if you were suffering from cardiac hypertrophy. It can be bought in purified form on the open market, but I don't think you'll like the price, assuming it would require milligram quantities. If all you need are nanograms (which I kinda doubt, but you never know) then people with hypertrophic heart failure can go to town. I posted on it in the thread Mind linked.
The good news it is not just for the heart, but it is also for the mind and spinal cord and who knows what else.
The first work on all this was tying and old mouse to a young one. The old one got younger, and the young one rapidly aged. I think I have seen that movie LOL
Then thinking it could be this protein, they gave just it to another mouse 6 months to a year later, and it seem to remodel it into a young heart in just week. Now, we have a study on it and "young" and "old" blood plasma, with a lot of great results. Old was of no help, but young plasma worked wonders in old mice. Young also has the highest amount of the protein.
I vote for cord blood. Chocked filled with all kinds of goodies, including very young stem cells.
Another story that didn't seemed to get the press came out May 16th, and in that one they cured...get that word cured Multiple Sclerosis in mice. That's right, and using stem cells. It repaired everything it seems and they were back up walking in days.
So it seems to me virtually everything can be cured or fixed with young blood and very young might work the best. The problem is you would have to leave the US to do it, because it is not approved for those purposes and the age of the person giving the blood is not recorded.
But different countries have different laws and it would be possible to offer some matching kids some bucks, to buy a small amount of their blood (maybe one large syringe full per kid), and then have it put into someone. Their bodies replaces their blood fast so they just made some buck without harm to them, but are richer than they were. Drain a few pints out and put a few pints of the new in.
Sounds real safe and could make some very large gains throughout a failing brain and body. Need more do it again in a few months.
My guess and this is just a guess, that once the whole system gets to a youthful age then it could be years and even decades before a "booster" might be needed, but in that timespan who knows what advancements might have happened by then making it no longer needed.
These changes in mice are happening very fast, as in weeks. Just my 2 cents.
This, if it works, is probably already being tried legally or not, and more news should be heard before the end of the year would be my guess. I know these researchers want to try it later this year on some alzheimers patients.
Mouse days roughly equate to human months. I doubt we will hear much by the end of the year. I think the real progress will be in isolating the compounds in the young blood. I suspect that GDF 11 is just one of several. Given the blood results, I would like to see huge amounts of funds redirected into this research.
Mouse days roughly equate to human months. I doubt we will hear much by the end of the year. I think the real progress will be in isolating the compounds in the young blood. I suspect that GDF 11 is just one of several. Given the blood results, I would like to see huge amounts of funds redirected into this research.
I think the genie may have popped to cork on this one, and there will be greater than normal pressure to get it done now, especially since we are dealing with a common medical procedure, of just adding some blood, or blood plasma as used in one study.
There is not a lot to see, just give the young blood to a few old people and see what happens. I am sure more that a few powerful or rich people that might be interested, along with doctors and nurses aging fast. Find out the results and then try and figure out why it is working or not. Remember too there are thousands of other places outside the US that will be working on this too and might have already started private treatments on humans with young blood.
Another point too is what about horses, and dogs, and you name it who may all respond the same, where the people could see fast results. I just don't see people sitting around and waiting on bureaucrats, but I could be wrong.
The young blood / GDF11 story is a fantastic development, and is the tip of the iceberg in terms of rejuvenating protein signaling factors. GDF11 may be the first of them, but it won't be the last. However, we shouldn't lose touch with reality on this- Young blood isn't going to cure all disease, and a few transfusions now and then aren't going to be enough to feel. A parabiosis experiment involves a joined circulatory system, not spot transfusions.
We will eventually learn how to replicate the youthful stem cell milieu through infusions of various factors, and that's what people will be lining up for. That's going to be a big business.
The young blood / GDF11 story is a fantastic development, and is the tip of the iceberg in terms of rejuvenating protein signaling factors. GDF11 may be the first of them, but it won't be the last. However, we shouldn't lose touch with reality on this- Young blood isn't going to cure all disease, and a few transfusions now and then aren't going to be enough to feel. A parabiosis experiment involves a joined circulatory system, not spot transfusions.
We will eventually learn how to replicate the youthful stem cell milieu through infusions of various factors, and that's what people will be lining up for. That's going to be a big business.
Correct, the first experiment a year or two ago joined two mice and saw the effect on the old and young (old got young and young aged fast). Next we had 6-8 months ago or so the GDF11 protein given, and a remodeling of an old heart in a mouse. Now we have 3 more experiments I believe using either the protein, or plasma transfusions of young (20 something) mice. The muscles comes back, spinal cord, brain, the heart, and probably everything else in mice in weeks. This is not a function of transferring though there young stem cells, but more the protein, that signals them to create and release new stem cells..GDF11. GDF11 is a close cousin I have heard of another protein, with great results called Myostatin.
Remember those wild results LOL
Proteins are controlling the orders the genes give out to our body, for example, we have the gene to produce large amounts of telomerase in our cells. The gene is blocked or turned off by a single protein that fits within that particular lock and stop its activation. That by itself is a huge consequence to our cells and health of our bodies.
The proteins such as GDF11 are plentiful when the mice or us are younger, but in both it drops off over time and show signs of aging. The question is does it do to us, if increased in our bodies. what it does in mice.
The researchers say it can take old mice back to 20 and do it fairly fast. When we talk about true regression and regeneration we are going outside the norms, and so expectations based on the old ways and results can not be used to predict outcome or speed. Another thing is the human mind has an automatic rejection response to new ways or ideas, and this is normal.
Remember it was considered absolute FACT that things like have been seen in mice can not happen in species, or would never happen. Aging is to complex to deal with it "they say". And on and on go the limiting "beliefs", that turned out to be dead dead wrong. Study the history of medical or technological advancements, and you see this over and over again, and it is still is going on.
These are not minor points or beliefs either. Anyone who wants to see reality an open their minds up and see how stagnate the the world of experts and Professionals are should watch two very old movies.
Dr. Louis Pasteur: Exactly. Doctor Charbonnet could see them for himself if he took the trouble to use his microscope. He could watch them multiply into murderous millions. They breed in filth. They may start from the gutters of Paris tonight and by tomorrow claim some mother from this very court.
Dr. Charbonnet: Preposterous! To think that a human being could be destroyed by an animal ten thousand times smaller than a flea. It's as though an army of ants were to overthrow your Majesty's empire.
Very good movie.
Today we may have a protein or two found in young blood that may reverse our mental and physical ages back to 20 very very quickly. The plasma injections given the mice were limited and from mice who had already aged to 20 or so in human years, and some were just given the GDF11 protein, but the results were staggering, and were still ongoing when they published.
Now, while this protein will triger our stem cells they think, it may not triger all that is needed and straight whole blood from the bery young may work a whole lot better and cure virtually everything. Remembe the mice that were recently given the foreign stem cells, and all those disappeared quickly they trigered a total healing process in the Multiple Sclerosis mice, after they were gone.The scientist thinks the immune system destroyed them, but I think they implanted and went to work.
This is going to get a lot of resistance for many reasons and on many levels, but slowed down or stopped will not happen worldwide. Great reversals are being seen body wide in mice and using different methods, and young blood is by far the easiest of all.
As a side note, the first possible attempt at this was in 1492, but we know a lot more about the subject (transfusing) then we did back then and we will always learn more. I do LOL
I'm sure bodybuilders will be using this in no time and we will have an idea of the side effects. Meanwhile, produce a 10 year old mouse and prove it really reverses aging. Many things sound promising but lack proof of long term efficacy even at the mouse level.
I'm sure bodybuilders will be using this in no time and we will have an idea of the side effects. Meanwhile, produce a 10 year old mouse and prove it really reverses aging. Many things sound promising but lack proof of long term efficacy even at the mouse level.
That would be nice if they could, but not real easy and practical for them to actually do, as far as I can see, and it would do nothing for the millions already suffering and dying, while waiting for this treatment or something to make them well again. We do KNOW what happens if they don't get it, without any reasonable doubt and with certainty.
Besides this, a few body builders doing this in secret would not make any difference to the whole, even if done properly by them and they turned into teenagers again within months, which you would have to admit would be a best case scenario.
On the subject of waiting, I would submit this case story supposedly from Kathcher from the link I posted..
said: At one point (I can’t really say more) we had two physicians and one billionaire who were willing to undertake this procedure (my HPE procedure) – but at the last minute the billionaire ‘chickened out’ (with the advice of his own physician). At this point (about three years later), that same individual is non compos mentis – lost in the world of Alzheimer’s disease. Personally I would rather be dead (those people who think that all of this is motivated by the fear of death are wrong – I have none). He missed his chance....
I could also point out that giving blood plasma to patients is a pretty normal and is considered a fairly safe treatment for many conditions already. The ONLY difference would be using and giving what was known to be young blood plasma to the already dying, even in small amounts over weeks and then observe the effects with the whole world watching (not in secret). The most negative outcome could be no worse then the not doing it outcome would be, and we have years of evidence showing it should work. We don't need rats, or a few body builders or reclusive Billionaires, in better general health already doing it.. me thinks.
I vote we start immediately with those dying and see what happens and if great results expand out from there. None of this is actually new, if we are talking plasma transfusion or regeneration in mice with blood. It either works or it doesn't.
Empty out social security and the nursing homes and hospitals if it works and see whats next. It could be the blood is a dead end for humans and won't do a thing, but that would save time and money wasted there if true.
In the mean time the rest of the world marches on and so does time. There are zero reasons to delay I can see. Anyone see my point??
Free10, I think the bodybuilders will use GDF11 if there is any chance to improve their performance and if they do and get results, it will be all over teh various forums. At that point GDF11 will become the hottest chemical EVER.
Free10, I think the bodybuilders will use GDF11 if there is any chance to improve their performance and if they do and get results, it will be all over teh various forums. At that point GDF11 will become the hottest chemical EVER.
GDF11 won't do much probably in young bodybuilders, since it should already be at high levels in them. Even in middle age the changes might not be that dramatic, especially using just this one factor out of young blood instead of the whole young enchilada. Even in the oldest bodybuilders it may not show a whole lot, because to be still active doing it they would still be younger in physiology me thinks than the average person who have trouble getting out of a chair.
It is not going to get the big or fast results in those guys, like say Myostatin HMP may I don't think. Now Stallone or Schwarzenegger may see some, but they are not likely to tell anyone they are doing anything besides just saying they are living right, to get those results. The same for Pro athletes. They make money off of endorsements, and then there are league and asssociation rules, as well as public image to consider plus the competitve advantage trade secrets angle.
Now I could be wrong about this. Critical care facilities and nursing homes would seem to be a better place for testing, and to fire off this rocket. Even the risks versus rewards ratio would be much better in those groups and the real results easier to see. They could get out of bed and could get out of the wheelchairs and walk, and now are running down the hallways and even finding their ways back LOL Medics have been called for the nursing staff which have all fainted.
I have been attempting to identify physicians willing to help me do exactly this. Use the current blood supply to rejuvenate myself. I know now that the U.S. blood supply comes primarily from blood donation centers run by the American Red Cross. They do not pay the donors. In addition to typing the blood, they test for HIV and other diseases. They can produce plasma from the whole blood that they receive. Plasma not only has a long shelve life, it also can be dried (not heated) and be kept for a long (?) time. It has been suggested that if you are young enough (I'm guessing 35) you can donate plasma and keep it for your older self. If plasma is donated, the blood bank knows who (how young) gave it and can supply it to your physician (I called and they confirmed this).
I am also guessing that this is perfectly legal and has been going on for a long time (transfusions). Your physician can call this whatever he wants, but fatigue may be a good reason. I don't think any of this will be reimbursable by insurance providers.
I'm not aware of the how many transfusions of plasma are needed. I am guessing about three units per week for three weeks. The donors can have the red and white cells and the platelets returned to them at the time of donating. This allows them to donate as much as twice a week.
It makes sense to set up a facility near a college campus and begin paying students (for their time, not for blood) to begin donating blood plasma. A nearby facility can arrange the transfusions and monitor the results. Longecity members can fly in and pay to participate. A buy program can be instituted to fund the two facilities. Or in lieu of a buy program (which apparently is not doing well with the GDF11) we can do a public offering (first limiting it to LongeCity members) and later allow others to invest. Short of this, a couple members with deep pockets can donate the necessary amount (5 million should start it) and we will allow them to name the facility and be the first few to enjoy the outcome.
We should be providing the patients with a measurement of their telomeres both before and after the procedures are performed.
I would sincerely appreciate some input soon from those that are interested.
I would caution you to wait for some results from the human trial first.
Because if this works, there will be a better thing to throw 5 million dollars at, instead of a blood drive for rich people.
If blood plasma is enough to rejuvenate muscles and nerve tissue, revive stem cell colonies etc. then there's a pretty good chance aging is not caused by wear and tear and is in fact a programed occurrence. Aged cells should not simply "rejuvenate" by getting some signals from your blood if they were damaged, unless the damage isn't irreversible to begin with, which would beg the question, why is it even there in the first place then? The answer would be - something is commanding the cells to underperform.
If that's the case there might in fact be a one-in-all anti aging solution right around the corner, and one that will probably not require blood transfusions at all. Proteins can easily be synthesized. Even if it's a particularly complex protein, the prospect of "curing" aging will make it a very sought after molecule and we'll have it synthesized right quick.
I forgot to add, I'm thinking it's not just GDF11 at work here, I doubt a complex mechanism like aging is controlled by a single protein.
What in the world is making people think GDF11 or any protein factor is going to SUBSTANTIALLY reverse aging? IMO, we're likely to end up with wrinkled decrepit senile old farts who have some moderately improved metabolism, if that's what we start with. Let me just ask everyone this: What exactly is the evidence that any blood factor reverses aging? That a hypertrophic mouse heart got slimmer? I hope there's more to it than that. Yeah yeah, there are some other tissues where changes have been observed. Which of those constitutes significant reversion of the aging phenotype?
I have the same skepticism if I have to be honest.
Parabiosis experiments indicate that impaired regeneration in aged mice is reversible by exposure to a young circulation, suggesting that young blood contains humoral "rejuvenating" factors that can restore regenerative function. Here, we demonstrate that the circulating protein growth differentiation factor 11 (GDF11) is a rejuvenating factor for skeletal muscle. Supplementation of systemic GDF11 levels, which normally decline with age, by heterochronic parabiosis or systemic delivery of recombinant protein, reversed functional impairments and restored genomic integrity in aged muscle stem cells (satellite cells).
But this is kinda ... it shouldn't be happening in any model of aging besides the programed "aging" one. And that's the easiest one to deal with.
It's easier to regulate one factor regulating your regenerative ability instead of trying to repair twenty types of damage when your body doesn't have the tools to do it.
Waiting for the scientists or the bureaucrats to place their stamp of approval on this is a function of something I will refer to as the Ramos Curve. The vertical axis represents the intensity of the desire to get the procedure performed, and the horizontal axis represents the age of the potential patient. As you might guess, the curve is actually logarithmic with the high end on the right side.
In other words, ask someone that is eighty years old if he is interested in doing it now.
Waiting for the scientists or the bureaucrats to place their stamp of approval on this is a function of something I will refer to as the Ramos Curve. The vertical axis represents the intensity of the desire to get the procedure performed, and the horizontal axis represents the age of the potential patient. As you might guess, the curve is actually logarithmic with the high end on the right side.
In other words, ask someone that is eighty years old if he is interested in doing it now.
Assuming it does one tenth of what some people seem to think it does. Where's the evidence?
Mouse studies.
We'll know about humans after the human trial which according to the bioscience forum should be starting soon(?).
But it kinda isn't a question of how much it helps, it's a question of why does it help. When it really shouldn't.
It will definitely raise some questions.
I think you should ask the billionaire that Katcher spoke of. Katcher said the billionaire had agreed to be a trial subject. Before he could do so, he experienced Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of rational thought.
I think you should ask the billionaire that Katcher spoke of. Katcher said the billionaire had agreed to be a trial subject. Before he could do so, he experienced Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of rational thought.
M'kay. That's probably as good as anything. I checked the claim upthread about GDF11 curing MS. It wasn't MS, and it wasn't GDF11. Other than that it worked great... So we've got hypertrophic mouse hearts getting thinner, what else? I think I saw something about improved healing and muscle growth. How is this different that HGH injections or testosterone replacement therapy?
Like I said, ask the billionaire. You might also ask him how much of his billion he would be willing to spend to return to awareness. Five million would be loose change for him. Unfortunately, he probably will not be able to provide these answers.
Those of you that can answer these questions, ask yourself how soon you are going to be incapacitated mentally. If you don't know, assume tomorrow.
Put up some of your stash tomorrow for this project and buy a little insurance for immortality (with consciousness). Even with Alzheimer's you might have some insurance.
What in the world is making people think GDF11 or any protein factor is going to SUBSTANTIALLY reverse aging? IMO, we're likely to end up with wrinkled decrepit senile old farts who have some moderately improved metabolism, if that's what we start with. Let me just ask everyone this: What exactly is the evidence that any blood factor reverses aging? That a hypertrophic mouse heart got slimmer? I hope there's more to it than that. Yeah yeah, there are some other tissues where changes have been observed. Which of those constitutes significant reversion of the aging phenotype?
Do you think GDF11 has less or more suggestive evidence than C60 in olive oil?
What in the world is making people think GDF11 or any protein factor is going to SUBSTANTIALLY reverse aging? IMO, we're likely to end up with wrinkled decrepit senile old farts who have some moderately improved metabolism, if that's what we start with. Let me just ask everyone this: What exactly is the evidence that any blood factor reverses aging? That a hypertrophic mouse heart got slimmer? I hope there's more to it than that. Yeah yeah, there are some other tissues where changes have been observed. Which of those constitutes significant reversion of the aging phenotype?
Do you think GDF11 has less or more suggestive evidence than C60 in olive oil?
C60oo has been in thousands of humans, and we have a large number of reports of impressive effects. There is a published paper in which rat lifespan was dramatically lengthened, and it has been shown to protect the liver against severe oxidative insult. If we extend our view out to other c60 analogs, there is a publication record stretching back some 15-20 years showing life extension in multiple species, neuroprotection, radioprotection, and a host of other important effects. Meanwhile, GDF11 reduces cardiac hypertrophy in some mouse model. So at this point in time, there is more evidence for the value of c60 than for GDF11. I suspect that in the fullness of time, GDF11 will prove to be a beneficial substance. I don't see any evidence that it will stop or reverse aging in a general sense, however.
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