24 replies to this topic

[Tom_]

I have been using phenibut in doses of 1-4 grams. Tolerence is slowly becoming an issue and I would like to off set it (if possible make it not an issue). An indication of how effective certain interventions might be would also help a lot - thanks.

I'm also interested in potentiation of effects. DLPA, L-theanin (possibly modafinil) are obvious candigates. Booze and benzos are obviously bat shit ideas. What else might help? Dose suggestions would be really helpful as well, thanks.

[Introspecta]

Deprenyl. Tablets not liquid seem to potentiate phenibut. It may not happen immedietly but within a few days they seem to work synergistically.

[lammas2]

It is really important to understand, that a big portion of phenibut's effects are due to dopamine modulation. I think GABA-B agonism causes downstream dopamine release. This is also why deprenyl would potentiate phenibut.

As we all know, phenibut withdrawal causes extreme anhedonia - I bet it is due to downregulation of dopamine receptors.

I have taken phenibut for about 1,5 years. What works for me: small dosages (250-1000mg) 2-3 (sometimes 4) times a week. Always taken on empty stomach. The longer the break, the better the effects. Tolerance is not a big issue this way.

To reverse tolerance: upregulate dopamine and GABA-B receptors.

I don't really know anything that effectively upregulates dopamine receptors (maybe sulbutiamine for D1?), but I have experimented a little with L-theanine - it should upregulate GABA-B. I can't say for sure that it works, but I think phenibut has slightly stronger effects after using theanine. PEA antagonises GABA-B and therefore after the antagonism it upregulates GABA-B, but this is short lasting (maybe 3-6 hours).

Phenibut is a wonderful substance. It has improved my life so much. I have gotten trough some very tough situations thanks to phenibut. But phenibut does not forgive and does not forget. The dosages should be as small as possible and used as rare as possible. Try reducing the dosage a little bit every time. You probably won't feel the profound effects, but it'll still help you.

Edited by lammas2, 30 May 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[dronez]

This topic (phenibut tolerance reversal) is of major importance to me. Phenibut was my cure-all for social anxiety. It stopped working in 2010 around the same time I was using GBL (a gaba-b agonist like Phenibut). I have waited long periods of time (over a year) in between taking phenibut but it only gives me these strange muscle aches without the euphoria it used to. I have tried it with and without piracetam to no avail. Back when phenibut worked for me, I would space it out and use it about once a week (along with piracetam)- and it worked for me for over a year. I really want to know if tolerance reversal is possible for phenibut.

I have heard that theanine and thc can upregulate gaba-b receptors - but how long would one have to take them to reverse the phenibut tolerance? There is also mention, without any evidentiary support, on various forums of wellbutrin reversing phenibut tolerance. But does this mean that someone has to be on wellbutrin while taking phenibut to reverse the tolerance or that one could take wellbutrin for a while, then stop and then be able to experience phenibut again.

I'm not really sure how the long-term (permanent?) tolerance to this stuff is occurring, but I'm hoping some genius out there has some speculation (or perhaps someone that can read russian since most of the phenibut research is most likely in russian). Thanks.

Edited by dronez, 12 March 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[Sacrifice01]

Phenibut for me was wonderful. It had the perfect anxiety relieve effect without messing me up cognitively but helping instead. I ended up taking it daily for anxiety despite what reports said. Tolerance built up rapidly and had bad withdrawals after taken it daily for a while. It's such a shame that the trade off works like that.

[protoject]

I don't really know anything that effectively upregulates dopamine receptors

If your idea about enhancing dopaminergic effects is true,
and concern about upregulating dopamine receptors,
CDP Choline / Citicoline should do the trick as far as I understand.

I took it for several months and noticed a definite increase in sensitivity to dopaminergic drugs.

Though I have no scientific evidence that it was in fact occuring in me, I think I've seen some evidence floating around in medical journals about the upregulation of dopamine receptors.

[Justchill]

Bump - I was wondering if anybody has got some succes with reversing phenibut tolerance? 

[UKLAD]

fasoracetam is supposed to upregulate gabab receptors   

[Justchill]

I've read this, but has anybody had succes with that and how would one use that supplement?

[Clement Ehling]

Fasoracetam + memantine + agmatine

https://www.reddit.c...rfly_and_higly/

[Justchill]

memantine is almost impossible to source to Europe... would 3-meo-pcp be an alternative?

[UKLAD]

i get memantine from https://teamtlr.com to Uk - been buying stuff from them for 3 years, never had any problems

[Justchill]

Thanks for the link. But as they ship from the US, Belgian customs will probably intercept it.

And does it work resetting your phenibut tolerance?

Edited by Justchill, 07 July 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Plenty of anecdotes on the internet that Kava Kava rapidly reverses Phenibut tolerance, anybody here had success? My own experimentations are quite mixed, not sure yet if it in fact works.

 

Also, what about Homotaurine?

[protoject]

Hey friends, i am aware this original post is a bit outdated, but I thought I'd follow up with a comment that may be useful to others reading, and, if the original poster is still active and in this situation, hopefully it'd be useful to him or her. (though I'm assuming he/she figured out their own solution by now).

I'm not venturing to suggest this, but it seems pregnenolone can be used safely for many people, and, if I recall correctly, it had some gaba-b ergic antagonism, so it might be that if you used that during your off time (the time that you don't need phenibut's effects, if there is such a time) , maybe it would upregulate gaba-b receptors. This is just an idea, you might want to check if there's any research about it... even if you have to go to the extent of finding out: how significantly does pregnenolone antagonize gaba a&b receptors? The next thing you'd want to research is: information about gaba-b or gaba antagonists that have shown to upregulate receptors at the same or similar potency as pregnenoline, and, the safety of such a thing.

 

I do suggest the following, based on experience: your body will adapt to having a lower dose even if you have to suffer in between. Taper down and I am sure your body will eventually figure out how to respond appropriately . if it doesn't, consider quitting if possible and then re-starting at a later date on a lower dosage.

My anecdote: funnily enough, with some experimentation this year, it seems that, on the days where I combine etizolam and phenibut for sleep, when I take the higher dose it actually causes more tolerance problems or less therepeutic effect. For example, it seems more favorable that I am on 5 mg etizolam and 500 mg phenibut, whereas if I boost it to 7.5 mg and 750 mg/ 1 g respectively, the particular therepeutic effect I'm seeking is lost (mine is for insomnia). However the anti-anxiety effects still extend to my benefit which is great. 

I think your pregabalin dose is way too high. There was a time that I took something between 3g-15 g a day. I know, ridiculous. This was several years ago. I swear it had some permanent effect on my brain, worsening insomnia, unless maybe it was something else I was using at that time. But, that being said, the reason for you only feeling side effects could be owed to more than one thing:  

 

1) the dosage is too high. 4 grams is a ridiculous amount especially daily (me assuming the worst case scenario).  

 

2) the source or form of your phenibut. years ago I got a bunch of side effects from phenibut that I don't get at all now. Perhaps this is owed to source and form (HCL vs free amino acid; LiftMode vs Purebulk) (yeah, purebulk once had it, I actually emailed them years ago saying the stuff was harmful and now they don't sell it anymore, I always wonder if my comment contributed to that, haha, good move for them though considering this is not a nutrient or a natural health product). . 
 

Plenty of anecdotes on the internet that Kava Kava rapidly reverses Phenibut tolerance, anybody here had success? My own experimentations are quite mixed, not sure yet if it in fact works.

 

Also, what about Homotaurine?

I've never tried combining Kava and Phenibut, though i really dislike kava. If your results are mixed, who knows, maybe that could indicate that it has an inconsistent effect, either that or maybe placebo. I think the best option would likely be, as suggested above, remove tolerance by suffering for some time on a lower dose and regaining tolerance so that it is effective again. And of course, again if you are using it daily, or multiple times a day, there is the option of lowering the frequency of dose and your body will likely adapt to those changes until you feel like phenibut is doing what it is supposed to do without requiring more.


I'm guessing with these things that there is some "minimum/maximum effective dose" for people. in my personal experience it seems that substances like these have a sweet-spot with both dosage and frequency of dosing, which, if insufficiently reached and if exceeded, does not work in the expected manner and causes trouble. 

[protoject]

To add, Galaxyshock, I'm not updated on the effects you've mentioned as I've been out of the loop for a few years, but would it be a stretch that kava would reverse tolerance for phenibut? Is this purely anecdotal? You know many of us have the tendency to want to jump to some conclusion that something is working and rationalize it, but to my current knowledge it seems this might be a bit of a stretch. That being said I won't discourage you from doing so if you find that it does end up being very effective, unless you're being harmed in some other way (are you having occasional liver checks while on kava? this is a concern worth looking into even though from what I remember there was some argument about kava without any root wouldn't cause this effect; it's worth checking your blood to really know, whether you can verify that the source had the appropriate product specifications or not).

 

Keep us updated so we can see the result. I'm predicting it won't work, but of course wishing that you will succeed beyond a doubt and, hopefully someone funnels a lot of money into researching kava even more, and how it interacts with other products, in human beings when the time comes. 

 

Edit: i could imagine kava potentiating phenibut, which seems to make more sense considering both substances' modes of action. So I expect it's possible there could be additive effects. How long have you tried it for? 

Edited by protoject, 10 May 2018 - 12:53 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

It's purely anecdotal, not sure by what mechanism it would happen. Kava has that reverse tolerance thing so that you need less of it in continuous use for the same effects. Kava shares the mechanism of calcium channel blockade with Phenibut so perhaps there's "reverse cross-tolerance"? Also, several kavalactones are MAOB-inhibitors which are speculated to possibly upregulate GABA-B. I've been using Kava a lot lately, perhaps I should try like 1000 mg Phenibut to see if it has effects - I usually need about 2000 mg. It's just that even taking Phenibut couple days in a row can send me to withdrawals. I should buy some Fasoracetam too.

[Galaxyshock]

Seemed that with 1000 mg of Phenibut the anxiolytics effects were fully there comparable to my normal dose of 2000 - 3000 mg, but no euphoriant effects. So if there is tolerance reversal it seems to be to the anxiolysis, which of course is the main therapeutic effect of Phenibut. Supposably Fasoracetam may reverse tolerance to the hedonic properties of Phenibut.

[John250]

Why would one use Phenibut v.s. Benzodiazepines? Doesn’t Phenibut cause a worse withdrawl and higher tolerance than benzodiazepines?

[Galaxyshock]

Why would one use Phenibut v.s. Benzodiazepines? Doesn’t Phenibut cause a worse withdrawl and higher tolerance than benzodiazepines?

 

For some of us Phenibut is just much better. I can barely feel Diazepam even at dose of 50 mg, yet Phenibut pretty much always delivers. The anxiolysis is stronger without cognitive impairment, and PB has pro-social effects. Yes, it can get you in trouble and it's quite sneaky drug.

[John250]

For some of us Phenibut is just much better. I can barely feel Diazepam even at dose of 50 mg, yet Phenibut pretty much always delivers. The anxiolysis is stronger without cognitive impairment, and PB has pro-social effects. Yes, it can get you in trouble and it's quite sneaky drug.

Got a tub of Primaforce PB. I think the most I used was 1.5g and didn’t feel much. Benzodiazepines are a godsend though. Too amped out with anxiety and a tiny dose of xan or Val fixes it. A little nauseous from opiates and a benzo fixes it. Dizzy spells and a benzo fixes it. High bp and high heart rate and a benzo fixes it,etc.. it’s crazy how much they actually do.

Edited by John250, 28 May 2018 - 03:50 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

Got a tub of Primaforce PB. I think the most I used was 1.5g and didn’t feel much. Benzodiazepines are a godsend though. Too amped out with anxiety and a tiny dose of xan or Val fixes it. A little nauseous from opiates and a benzo fixes it. Dizzy spells and a benzo fixes it. High bp and high heart rate and a benzo fixes it,etc.. it’s crazy how much they actually do.

 

I wish benzos worked that way for me too. I only really felt them in the beginning of treatment and then the effects faded away within a week or two, never really working again. This happened with diazepam and lorazepam, also z-drugs were quite useless for me. 

 

With Phenibut the magic starts to happen at doses 2 to 4 grams for me. It just takes several hours for the effects to come so it's not a good drug for treating acute issues.

 

I ordered a gram of Fasoracetam, hope it works for me.

[John250]

I wish benzos worked that way for me too. I only really felt them in the beginning of treatment and then the effects faded away within a week or two, never really working again. This happened with diazepam and lorazepam, also z-drugs were quite useless for me.

With Phenibut the magic starts to happen at doses 2 to 4 grams for me. It just takes several hours for the effects to come so it's not a good drug for treating acute issues.

I ordered a gram of Fasoracetam, hope it works for me.

Keep me posted on the Fasoracetam. The only 2 I haven’t tried yet are Fasoracetam and Coluracetam.

[Galaxyshock]

Keep me posted on the Fasoracetam. The only 2 I haven’t tried yet are Fasoracetam and Coluracetam.

 

I started using Fasoracetam 30mg twice a day. It produces clearheaded anxiolysis, some improvement in mood, motivation, wellbeing and focus. No side effects or feelings of withdrawal. Pretty nice compound, the most effective racetam so far for me. 

[medievil]

There is one anecdote of magnolia bark dramatically potentiating phenibut, kava kava upregulates gabab and so does fasoracetam, another option could be memantine, i am the pioneer behind the possibility of using memantine for tolerance (i posted loads of scientific papers about its therapeutic potential ages ago) it works for tolerance and withdrawal of drugs of abuse.

 

I used it succesfully when i lived in belguim, untill a ran out and then started suffering from tolerance issues, currently in the UK i am unable to get it (cant even get my ritalin script which i had in belguim, they just switch medications around here in the UK).