26 replies to this topic

[chung_pao]

For Cognitive function and Well-being, I'm trying to accomplish the following:
Maximal Steroidogenesis (Testosterone and Neurosteroids, among others) - Without resistance exercise.

What forms of hormesis can I use to elevate my steroidogenesis, without having to stimulate hypertrophy?
How do you "stress" the body without stimulating muscle hypertrophy?


Some of the effects resistance exercise has on me are impractical and a distraction. I'm referring to:
*Increased hunger and nutrient/protein requirement. It makes me want/need to eat much more than is practical.
The increased hunger makes eating more a necessity. Eating more leads to more insulin, and more insulin leads to less cAMP...
*It causes inflammation and increases prostaglandins and PDE-enzymes. These effects inhibit cognitive function, which is always noticeable for me.
*It produces increased mTOR signalling to synthesize muscle proteins I don't want, it leads to an undesired form of supercompensation.
*Since one of my goals is longevity, the wasteful mitosis/protein synthesis of muscle tissue is even working against this goal.

My desired outcomes are increased hormonal, nerve growth factors and protein synthesis (involved in LTP), without the side-effect of stimulating a muscle-growth response. The side-effect of muscular supercompensation is just impractical and counterproductive for me.

But, I know I still need to apply some form of hormesis to my body in order to keep hormonal/growth factor production high.
So, what forms of hormesis would you recommend when the goal is not to build muscle?


So far, my options are: Caloric restriction, Intermittent fasting, Cold therapy (cold showers, baths).
What else is there? Any suggestions? What has worked in rats to improve cognitive function and hormone levels?
I also think CILTEP and a high dopaminergic activity in general has positive effects on GnRH and downstream steroidogenesis.


I think this discussion can be of interest for anyone with the same intentions: Improved Cognitive function & Well-being, without the inconvenience of muscular hypertrophy/supercompensation.

(Couldn't post this in Bioscience. The Topic Tags function wouldn't work. Please relocate it if you think it's more appropriate.)

Edited by chung_pao, 23 June 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Nattzor]

*Increased hunger and nutrient/protein requirement. It makes me want/need to eat much more than is practical.

Well, so eating 1 serving more at a meal is impractical?

The increased hunger makes eating more a necessity. Eating more leads to more insulin, and more insulin leads to less cAMP...

How much less cAMP? And just drop the carbs a bit, you wont release as much insulin. Or easier, start doing some form of IF, your insulin sensitivty will go up and you wont have as many insulin releases during a day.

*It causes inflammation and increases prostaglandins and PDE-enzymes. These effects inhibit cognitive function, which is always noticeable for me.

Not all form of inflammation is bad, inflammation plays a huge role in the body. And then we have the fact that exercise releases BDNF and NGF (atleast 1 of them), which improves cognition and all the studies showing improved concentration.

*It produces increased mTOR signalling to synthesize muscle proteins I don't want, it leads to an undesired form of supercompensation.

Silly you, strength is good when you age (and all through life).

*Since one of my goals is longevity, the wasteful mitosis/protein synthesis of muscle tissue is even working against this goal.

Except that your mortaility is statistically raised if you do not work out.

[kevinseven11]

Ive heard of a vibration plate. If you were to use one for a while you could theoretically improve your hormones.
Start at 45 minutes a day.

[chung_pao]

I found out what I was looking for, through research.

My biggest concerns were:
*Not stimulating excessive hypertrophy. I don't intend to waste my hayflick limit/energy on bodybuilding.
*Maximizing steroidogenesis, for well-being, cognitive function and performance.

In applying a new method, I've found what works for me.
*Intermittent fasting, supplementing with CILTEP, ALCAR and caffeine. ALCAR and caffeine makes fasting absolutely effortless, and synergizes well with CILTEP.
*Strength training, using very low repetitions (2-3) on bench press and deadlifts. This will provide the performance-enhancing benefits without the unwanted hypertrophy.
I figured the excessive need for protein was caused by high-repetition strength training. Just lowering the rep-count and time under tension will change the supercompensatory response. This way, I'll still real the benefits of strengthening my bones and elevated steroidogenesis.

I'll also add in other forms of hormesis, when I feel like it, such as cold therapy. But IMO, low rep strength training and IF will provide all the hormesis I need.

Ive heard of a vibration plate. If you were to use one for a while you could theoretically improve your hormones.
Start at 45 minutes a day.

Yeah, I've heard Dave asprey uses one of those. I neither like the sedentary nor stationary lifestyle though.

Edited by chung_pao, 24 June 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[Logic]

The effect of Sutherlandia frutescens on steroidogenesis: confirming indigenous wisdom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15666820

[NocicepticBoss]

My take on it: don't be lazy and exercise. You don't have to be in the gym all the time. Two heavy strength-focused full body workouts a week is plenty to promote physical wellbeing and strength without "excessive hypertrophy".

[brainslugged]

Icariin may be interesting.

It (according to wikipedia) simulates testosterone. Not quite sure if that is the effect you are looking for, or even if it would be simulating the right kind of testosterone, but it would be a good place to look.


Selegiline may be a substance to look into as well. It may just be due to the dopaminergic components, but I have read on this forum a few times that it could increase testosterone levels.



Also, Mind&Muscle forums is bound to have a lot of information on this topic, wouldn't hurt to repost this there as well.


Testosterone isn't really a topic I am that interested in and look up a lot, so I could be wrong, but I think I recall reading somewhere that lower testosterone is actually better for longevity due to the fact that it does some kind of damage to the heart or something.

[autopilot]

I found out what I was looking for, through research.

My biggest concerns were:
*Not stimulating excessive hypertrophy. I don't intend to waste my hayflick limit/energy on bodybuilding.
*Maximizing steroidogenesis, for well-being, cognitive function and performance.

In applying a new method, I've found what works for me.
*Intermittent fasting, supplementing with CILTEP, ALCAR and caffeine. ALCAR and caffeine makes fasting absolutely effortless, and synergizes well with CILTEP.
*Strength training, using very low repetitions (2-3) on bench press and deadlifts. This will provide the performance-enhancing benefits without the unwanted hypertrophy.
I figured the excessive need for protein was caused by high-repetition strength training. Just lowering the rep-count and time under tension will change the supercompensatory response. This way, I'll still real the benefits of strengthening my bones and elevated steroidogenesis.

I'll also add in other forms of hormesis, when I feel like it, such as cold therapy. But IMO, low rep strength training and IF will provide all the hormesis I need.

How does ALCAR and caffeine make your IF easier? I read somewhere in this forum that ALCAR can affect your sleep negetively durinng IF . Do you take ALCAR with with CILTEP in morning in fasting days?
thnaks

[lourdaud]

Beware of testosterone! http://www.bbc.co.uk...health-19699266

[nowayout]

Most men have a very, very hard time inducing excessive hypertrophy even with a lot of weight training - there are whole industries devoted to this "problem" - so unless you are a genetic freak I doubt you have to worry about it.

[67limitless13]

"My desired outcomes are increased hormonal, nerve growth factors and protein synthesis (involved in LTP), without the side-effect of stimulating a muscle-growth response. The side-effect of muscular supercompensation is just impractical and counterproductive for me."

How about TRT or reducing carbohydrates in your current diet and up the protein so you don't eat above maintenance which would cause hypertrophy ?

Edited by 67limitless13, 26 June 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

To what degree has weight training been shown to increase hormonal production in healthy individuals? Have you guys found any relevant studies?

[John Schlongfellow]

I am a serious lifter and genetic freak, and thank you for the kind phrasing.

your concern over excessive hypertrophy ( sounds like a supplement LOL ) is almost certainly undue.

I also happen to work in the construction industry which provides me with considerable empirical data regarding what percentage of the population will respond to rigorous exercise with hypertrophy.
IMHO, 10% or less will build unusually large muscles.
1% or less are freaks, fully half of them having African genetic influence.

even in the realm of individuals trying hard as they may, failure to gain is pandemic
take for example my last 5 workout buddies, or the current one...

I've also supplied some of them with various supplements, with varied effects, but rarely so great as they had on me.
the current favorites are
Longjack 200:1 . 100mg dose 2 times daily
tribulus extract with highest available saponin content 200mg. 2 times daily
I mix a few other things in but they aren't important.

maybe one is
what is the current status of mucuna pruriens extract at around 99% l dopa?
is 20mg 2 times daily with 2 days off a week considered safe?
no carbidopa in there

if you research those plant extracts, please keep in mind that most users are trying very hard to gain, additionally many probably represent that small % capable of gaining so their results will be biased by way off genetics.
Protein intake is another major variable.
Stay under 1g/kg daily protein and the sort of gains you fear will be highly unlikely.

sorry I'm not as smart as the rest of you. I'm "know how" smart, tacit and all that ;-p

[John Schlongfellow]

Sorry missed a point or two.

low repetitions favor hypertrophy, usually low reps and high weight
3 reps is a joke unless it's 80%+ of max effort
instead of wasting whole seconds of your life with 3 reps try jumping as high as you can
feet shoulderish width apart, squat till your butt touches your heels, don't let those knees ahead of the toes too much, now drive straight up like there's a tall fence in front and a tiger aft
repeat until you're sure you got away from the tiger

@ opaquemind
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/9660159/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/9760352/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/9760352/

on second thought, even old Japanese women exhibit hypertrophy (rofl)
http://m.jap.physiol...t/91/2/569.full

maybe we should define "excessive" ?

Edited by John Schlongfellow, 26 June 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[chung_pao]

My issue with strength training was that it made it impossible for me to use intermittent fasting or caloric restriction.
It just made me too damn hungry.
There may have been some misunderstandings with my initial question. I was referring to the increased appetite as "stimulated hypertrophy". (assumption)
I simply wanted the benefits of weight training (nerve growth factors, longevity, hormonal boost: androgens and neurosteroids), without gaining any muscle.

However, using CILTEP, Caffeine and especially ALCAR fixed this.
ALCAR has just been incredible. During fasting, whenever I feel my blood glucose drop, I just replenish with alcar and it stabilizes immediately.
With ALCAR, I can fast for as long as I like (I'm not selling anything, just happy to have found a solution for myself)
I also stopped using high repetitions. Now, I only do benchpresses and deadlifts for 2-3 repetitions, at 90% of my 1 rep max.
I feel using higher repetitions and more time under tension just makes my muscle crave much more nutrients, which can be really distracting.

Now I feel I get the benefits of both IF and strength training, and I feel incredible. (check out the CILTEP-thread for more details on my approach)

Edited by chung_pao, 27 June 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[platypus]

Having muscle is beneficial as it's metabolically active tissue that will also control blood sugar and keep one lean. CR-practitioners are bound to get lean anyway so perhaps this is not a consideration for them.

[Nattzor]

I doubt that the supplements "fix" it, maybe give you a bit of a boost, but not as good as training itself. Don't have anything to back it up with though.

[electricmonk500]

I'd just like to weigh in and agree with those that are saying that concerns about excessive muscle growth are not something the vast majority of people have to worry about. Higher muscle mass greatly benefits longevity and recovery from serious illness. Here's just one article that came up on a quick search http://ajcn.nutritio...t/84/3/475.full
If you are concerned about the increased appetite, maybe you can just try eating more filling foods and/or increasing the amount of fiber in your diet? Oatmeal is very filling and high fiber, you could also begin supplementing a couple tablespoons of psyllium husk a day with meals, which makes the meal feel more filling. In the realm of more "comon sense" type suggestions, maybe you just need to reduce the intensity or volume of your workouts so that you do not experience such an increased appetite. Good luck!

Edited by electricmonk500, 28 June 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Adaptogen]

any updates on steroidogenesis? I would like to increase the rate i gain muscle and strength . Currently the only fairly anabolic supplements i'm taking are ashwagandha, eleuthero, and creatine. What else might be a good addition to a routine of heavy lifting, plenty of sleep, and surplus calories?

[chung_pao]

IMO, focus more on foods and sleep than lifting.
1) Make sure you progress in the gym. Train seldom, but when you do, use BIG exercises in the same session.
I only do bench presses and deadlifts atm, on the same session. It gives you a much greater hormonal response than doing them in isolation.
On days when I just can't contain myself but don't want to interrupt recovery from these exercises, I just do single sets (1-3 minute long) of kettlebell swings.
Use forskolin as a pre-workout if you wish to potentiate the response to training.
2) Foods: Red fatty meat, some fish if possible, spinach or broccoli and brazil nuts (selenium makes an incredible difference).
3) Sleep... and make sure your sleep is unaffected by most drugs... most importantly, unaffected by stimulants.

And that's it. You can't do much more than this, aside from adding intermittent fasting and getting your body-fat in the 6-10% range.

4) Oh, and focusing on retaining testosterone is also helpful; keeping it from being metabolized into estrogen. Avoid sweets, hyperglycemia and negative stress.
5) Psychological factors also play a big role. Eustress, a feeling of excitement and flow, stimulates steroidogenesis via dopamine and LH.

Well... If you're desperate:
http://ergo-log.com/...e-archives.html

Edited by chung_pao, 27 November 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[John Schlongfellow]

Easy with the forskolin.
A couple mg had me on my back on the sidewalk spraying the hose straight up to try and cool off.
I'm not the only one to find it stimulating, or over stimulating.

Here is a wacky idea..... http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24106072

People ask "why?"
I ask "why not ? "

Working your whole body on the same day makes fine sense, more like real work.

Swinging a large, 10# plus, sledge is a fantastic workout and isn't weightlifting
Logs are good to hit, but I usually drive stakes for concrete forms.

Edited by John Schlongfellow, 27 November 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[chung_pao]

There's definitely potential in PDE-5 inhibitors for hormone production. If i dose 500-1500 mg artichoke extract with a low dose of theobromine (yerba mate or cocoa), I can definitely feel a difference... Not just in terms of vasodilation, but hormonal differences. I'd love to have this hypothesis tested though.

However, all PDE-5 inhibitors I know of have too many mood-altering side-effects to be used consistently.
But if you're feeling experimental, try 1500 mg artichoke extract with some yerba mate tea, and follow that with a big meal of greasy steak and almonds. You'll turn into a real pervert, I guarantee you.

The sledgehammer sounds like a great idea!

I hear you on the forskolin... Be careful. I combined it with HIIT once and that nearly wiped me out.

Edited by chung_pao, 28 November 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[John Schlongfellow]

Maybe erections raise hormone levels ?

Is there a theory regarding pde5 inhibitors and mood ?

Most studies read indicate very only minor other effects, for example, vascodialation is supposed to be limited to arteries containing pde5, pulmonary and corp cav mainly.
Yet sildenfil causes other effects never listed.

Where is the guide to pde5 inhibitors?
What other mechanisms are there for mood changes?
Surely they must have some larger systemic effect?

What is the active ingredient in almonds ?

[Adaptogen]

another interesting HMB study:
http://www.ergo-log....g-fat-loss.html

[yborcity]

As far as enhancing hormetic response with Intermittent fasting, maybe you could add the following to your big one meal of the day:  cocoa nibs, curcuma, cayenne pepper, black cumin seeds (nigella sativa). I have pretty good results with it and i only do HIT exercices once a week (30 mins) following the Dr MacGuff protocol, described in his book "body by science".

I also sleep like a log 8 hours per night, that may help. 

[Plasticperson]

forskolin made me gain a lot of muscle but it also made me feel like shit 

[Galaxyshock]

I would take Suma Root (steroidomimetic) and Cordyceps (steroidogenesis).

Do some push-ups, bodyweight squats and chin-ups/ a row movement and it's pretty much full-body anabolia.