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Cerebrolysin Nasal Spray

cerebrolysin

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#31 AuralAnomaly

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 01:35 AM

"Today a young man's head exploded after intranasally self administering Cerebrolysin with membrane permeability enhancers and vasoconstrictors using a spray atomizer whilst pushing out his breath." :-D

There could be long term consequences from repeated use of vasocontrictors. Maybe even itself going into the brain..

Given what we know so far I'd personally opt for lower dose repeated spraying. There must be a ceiling to how many new blood vessels formed or neurons saved etc at any given time, but not a lower limit. And since IV/IM users typically report minimal affect from 1 ml and adverse reactions from 10+ ml, I'd say the .5 ml max per nostril we're at least ~x6 concentrating into the brain here falls within that optimally therapeutic window!

I remember reading in one of the posted studies that EEG readings were significantly changed for ~40 minutes after an intranasal dose, if we correlate that as the time period of maximal effectiveness and presume CRB works through mechanisms that will not down regulate receptors (preliminary Googling shows this to be true) or inducing negative feedback (this one not so true*..), then spraying every 30 minutes for a few hours could be a good approach.

Honestly we don't really know so let's all report results from different approaches!

*Referring to negative feedback of IGF-1 signalling that would impede autocrine production at binded tissues... Who knows how inhibited autocrine IGF-1 production and thus signalling impairs synapse remodelling and whatever during learning as we dose.. This could also work its way to the pituitary and suppress GH pulsation until the IGF-1's cleared. Maybe we should dose after intense learning is finished and chilling out starts?

edit: The approach I'm most partial to now is 0.55ml administered 3x daily into both nostrils at every meal. This gets through 10 ml ampoules neatly and ensures if there really is any detrimental effect on learning, it would fall into a period of brain down time whilst I digest :-D

Edited by AuralAnomaly, 10 August 2013 - 02:29 AM.


#32 vlk

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:26 PM

"Today a young man's head exploded after intranasally self administering Cerebrolysin with membrane permeability enhancers and vasoconstrictors using a spray atomizer whilst pushing out his breath." :-D

There could be long term consequences from repeated use of vasocontrictors. Maybe even itself going into the brain..

Given what we know so far I'd personally opt for lower dose repeated spraying. There must be a ceiling to how many new blood vessels formed or neurons saved etc at any given time, but not a lower limit. And since IV/IM users typically report minimal affect from 1 ml and adverse reactions from 10+ ml, I'd say the .5 ml max per nostril we're at least ~x6 concentrating into the brain here falls within that optimally therapeutic window!

I remember reading in one of the posted studies that EEG readings were significantly changed for ~40 minutes after an intranasal dose, if we correlate that as the time period of maximal effectiveness and presume CRB works through mechanisms that will not down regulate receptors (preliminary Googling shows this to be true) or inducing negative feedback (this one not so true*..), then spraying every 30 minutes for a few hours could be a good approach.

Honestly we don't really know so let's all report results from different approaches!

*Referring to negative feedback of IGF-1 signalling that would impede autocrine production at binded tissues... Who knows how inhibited autocrine IGF-1 production and thus signalling impairs synapse remodelling and whatever during learning as we dose.. This could also work its way to the pituitary and suppress GH pulsation until the IGF-1's cleared. Maybe we should dose after intense learning is finished and chilling out starts?

edit: The approach I'm most partial to now is 0.55ml administered 3x daily into both nostrils at every meal. This gets through 10 ml ampoules neatly and ensures if there really is any detrimental effect on learning, it would fall into a period of brain down time whilst I digest :-D



Yes, the long term use of vasoconstrictors is a bad idea, and does have a rebound effect. I never even thought about the vasoconstrictors going straight into the brain! With vasoconstricting nasal sprays sold over the counter I would hope that this doesn't happen but just because it's used regularly doesn't mean it's safe!

I would still like to try with a vasoconstrictor for a week or so, but this will need some thorough research first :-D

The only info I've found so far reported mild signs of overdose at 50ml that did not harm the patient at all in healthy volunteers, and one that said 10ml was better than 30ml or 60ml in Alzheimers patients.
I agree results seem to drop above 10ml IV, have you seen adverse reactions from 10+ml being reported or were you referring to this drop in results?

About negative feedback of IGF-1: has this being proven? It seems logical that it might happen, perhaps this is why larger 50-60ml doses are not very effective. Do you have any more info on this?

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#33 AuralAnomaly

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 07:45 AM

TBH I was going from memory specific as "1 - 10 ml good, 10+ ml bad".. It's worth remembering the optimal dose for Alzheimers patients is going to be different from that of healthy people. DatBtrue (whom I'd consider an authority on all things biochemical) reported his optimal dose as just 1 ml IM per day.

IGF-1 becomes more relevant with intranasal dosing. With IM it will bind to whatever muscle it's injected into, with IV it would go systemic and bind to probably everything in its path... I couldn't find anything specific for the brain (didn't try very hard) but the general rule is that it does cause negative feedback. If that's also true of brain tissues then given IGF-1's short half life we'd only need to dose during down time (not including before bed since the brain is very active consolidating memories) to avoid very short term problems and still reap long term benefits!

There's still lots to probe into of course but I think we have enough information now to get some MAD Nasal atomizers from Amazon and enough CRB to start experimenting with. I'm really busy moving all next week and probably wont have internet for a while so wont be around, hopefully others want to keep this going!

Good luck :-D

#34 Krabby

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:48 PM

I'm about to purchase a few vials of Cerebrolysin for purely intranasal administration.
I have made a makeshift nasal Atomizer out of a few old perfume bottles while my MAD Atomizer is shipped.
I have never taken Cerebrolysin before so I will not be able to compare it to IM.
I hope others will be able to share their experiences :D

#35 Krabby

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 02:00 PM

Edit:

I actually managed to get my hands on a MAD300 tip for a syringe.
Does anybody know if syringes have a universal size or any which would be compatible with the MAD300?

Edited by Krabby, 12 August 2013 - 02:01 PM.


#36 vlk

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:24 PM

Edit:

I actually managed to get my hands on a MAD300 tip for a syringe.
Does anybody know if syringes have a universal size or any which would be compatible with the MAD300?


I believe it is a standard luer lock connection, so any luer lock syringe will work.

A standard non-luer syringe may work, but the pressure required for atomization might pop it off the syringe.



I was just wondering whether to buy a single one or get a box of 25 (MAD300). If you don't mind me asking, where did you get yours from?

#37 Krabby

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:39 PM

Edit:

I actually managed to get my hands on a MAD300 tip for a syringe.
Does anybody know if syringes have a universal size or any which would be compatible with the MAD300?


I believe it is a standard luer lock connection, so any luer lock syringe will work.

A standard non-luer syringe may work, but the pressure required for atomization might pop it off the syringe.



I was just wondering whether to buy a single one or get a box of 25 (MAD300). If you don't mind me asking, where did you get yours from?


I live in the UK and did not realise there were some UK suppliers.
I got mine from boundtree (http://boundtree.co....without-syringe)
In total it cost £3.90 (Other suppliers had large shipping charges).
I'm buying a single for now; I might buy more in the future.

Just to clarify do you believe it will have a noticeable effect without vasoconstrictors by administrating 0.5ml to each nostril?

#38 vlk

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:57 PM

I live in the UK and did not realise there were some UK suppliers.
I got mine from boundtree (http://boundtree.co....without-syringe)
In total it cost £3.90 (Other suppliers had large shipping charges).
I'm buying a single for now; I might buy more in the future.

Just to clarify do you believe it will have a noticeable effect without vasoconstrictors by administrating 0.5ml to each nostril?


Well Intavent (now owned by Teleflex) are the UK distributors and they said it was £59.something for a box of 25. I forgot to ask if that included VAT and it probably didn't include delivery either, so it's not much cheaper to buy in bulk anyway.

Don't assume that I know what I'm talking about just because I have access to a lot of medical papers! :laugh:

A vasoconstrictor would increase the amount going straight into the brain rather than into the blood, then across the BBB.
However, Cerebrolysin actually seems to have less effect at higher doses, so unless someone finds out why this happens, it's probably not worth risking using a vasodilator.

As AuralAnomal pointed out the ideal dose may be close to 1ml IM for some people and 1ml IN should achieve a higher concentration than that in the brain without needing vasodilators :)
Personally, I've only ever tried 5ml at a time mostly IM, 3 times IV. Maybe I've been using too much!?
(Plus various random amounts IN-dripping over the last few days, but its too early to see any long term effects from that)

I've just ordered one now (from your link, thanks) I think I will probably start with 1ml per day, 0.25ml per nostril twice a day and see what happens...
Please keep us updated on your experiments too!

Edited by vlk, 12 August 2013 - 04:59 PM.


#39 Psionic

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:20 PM

Anyone is going to try it with chitosan? I wonder whats the total concentration of chitosan needed in solution.
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#40 vlk

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:59 PM

I may try it eventually, I will probably play with the atomizer for a bit first though.

The best concentration in the study was 0.25% w/v so 12.5mg per 5ml ampule


As for the best type of chitosan, they found that MD>LD>HD (Low, Medium and High Density)
but the results were pretty similar for the different viscosities anyway, the concentration seems to be more important.
(Medium in their study is 200-800cP)

They also mention different degrees of deacetylation being tested, but they don't give any results comparing them...
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#41 empedocles

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:54 PM

Im giving this approach serious consideration, seems easy enough if no additives are necassary to achieve optimal effect.

#42 Krabby

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:52 AM

I thought I would mention this because I found it quite funny.
Boundtree sent the most excessive amount of promotional items ever with my order.

The total came to £3.90 (free First Class shipping!) for a single MAD300 and I got a package the size of a text book.
Inside there is a large 400 page catalogue, a bound restaurant-esque pamphlet for the receipt, a nice pen, a textured rubber key ring, a large lanyard and whatever you call these.
All individually packaged with "boundtree" spewed all over them.

I just found it so funny that the MAD300 looked like it was thrown in on a whim.

.....Nice to see there is no expense spared when it comes to the customer. It's hard to believe they can turn a profit with that business philosophy :laugh:

.

Edited by Krabby, 14 August 2013 - 12:04 PM.

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#43 empedocles

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

I thought I would mention this because I found it quite funny.
Boundtree sent the most excessive amount of promotional items ever with my order.

The total came to £3.90 (free First Class shipping!) for a single MAD300 and I got a package the size of a text book.
Inside there is a large 400 page catalogue, a bound restaurant-esque pamphlet for the receipt, a nice pen, a textured rubber key ring, a large lanyard and whatever you call these.
All individually packaged with "boundtree" spewed all over them.

I just found it so funny that the MAD300 looked like it was thrown in on a whim.

.....Nice to see there is no expense spared when it comes to the customer. It's hard to believe they can turn a profit with that business philosophy :laugh:

.


The Item is called a carabina , though looking at its construction and materials , best for hanging keys off of and not life saving rope for climbing cliff faces :D

#44 vlk

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:19 PM

I thought I would mention this because I found it quite funny.
Boundtree sent the most excessive amount of promotional items ever with my order.

The total came to £3.90 (free First Class shipping!) for a single MAD300 and I got a package the size of a text book.
Inside there is a large 400 page catalogue, a bound restaurant-esque pamphlet for the receipt, a nice pen, a textured rubber key ring, a large lanyard and whatever you call these.
All individually packaged with "boundtree" spewed all over them.

I just found it so funny that the MAD300 looked like it was thrown in on a whim.

.....Nice to see there is no expense spared when it comes to the customer. It's hard to believe they can turn a profit with that business philosophy :laugh:

.



I just got mine. I didn't get any of the promotional materials though :sad: just the massive catalogue and the very fancy receipt pamphlet thing.
Oh, and I did eventually find a MAD300 in there too :laugh:

Let the experiments begin!
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#45 Krabby

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:28 PM

Any updates on your experience? :D

Unfortunately my Cerebrolysin is taking it's sweet time to arrive.
Has anyone in the UK ever ordered it from nootropic.eu before? If so how long did it take to ship?

#46 cyberger

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:42 PM

My CB is in shipment from nootropic.eu, so nothing to report yet.

A question: since the MAD nasal atomizers are spendy, I'm planning on reusing it and will want to disinfect between usages. Iodine has been used by campers to purify unsafe drinking water, so it seems relatively non-toxic to humans if some happened to remain in the atomizer and got administered intranasally. (sidenote: here's a link to a highly rated Amazon iodine water purifier: http://www.amazon.co...er disinfectant)

So the disinfectant plan would be:
1) Mix the iodine purifier with distilled water to create the disinfectant. Shoot the disinfectant through the MAD nasal atomizer and leave the atomizer submerged in the disinfectant for at least 35 minutes for full germicidal effect.

2) Remove atomizer and shoot distilled water through it to clean out the iodine and store in a sealed zip-lock bag.

Thoughts?

Edited by cyberger, 16 August 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#47 vlk

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:05 PM

Any updates on your experience? :D

Unfortunately my Cerebrolysin is taking it's sweet time to arrive.
Has anyone in the UK ever ordered it from nootropic.eu before? If so how long did it take to ship?



Yeah, I ordered from them before, I can't remember exactly how long it took, but I think it was over a week as I remember getting impatient!
They are still the cheapest supplier I've found. Actually, I don't have much left, I need to make another order soon...


Re: the LMA MAD Nasal

Initially, I was quite disappointed with the atomisation of the device. I tested it with water and sprayed it a few times, and got more of a stream than a mist.

After a little bit of practice however, I realised it was mostly user error :laugh:
It requires a fairly precise, short sharp pressure on the syringe plunger to properly atomise the contents. You have to be quite careful with timing as well if you want to spray a fixed amount as it is easy to spray too much.
I also found that if you hold it at the wrong angle, it is possible to squirt it onto the side/inside of the nose where it will just drip out rather than deeper into the nasal cavity.
I would strongly recommend testing a few times with water before wasting any cerebrolysin!

I was using non-luer 5ml syringes as I already had those, it may be easier to control with a smaller syringe. My 1ml syringes arrived today, so I'll test those out later.

As for syringe type, I was unable to "pop it off" after firmly pressing it onto a standard syringe, so luer-lok syringes are not compulsory, although they are slightly more convenient.



As for mood/cognitive performance etc, I think I will need more time to be able to compare this to IM/IV but I'm feeling pretty good so far.


My CB is in shipment from nootropic.eu, so nothing to report yet.

A question: since the MAD nasal atomizers are spendy, I'm planning on reusing it and will want to disinfect between usages. Iodine has been used by campers to purify unsafe drinking water, so it seems relatively non-toxic to humans if some happened to remain in the atomizer and got administered intranasally. (sidenote: here's a link to a highly rated Amazon iodine water purifier: http://www.amazon.co...er disinfectant)

So the disinfectant plan would be:
1) Mix the iodine purifier with distilled water to create the disinfectant. Shoot the disinfectant through the MAD nasal atomizer and leave the atomizer submerged in the disinfectant for at least 35 minutes for full germicidal effect.

2) Remove atomizer and shoot distilled water through it to clean out the iodine and store in a sealed zip-lock bag.

Thoughts?


I can't think of anything wrong with that, although that link says it has 83% "other ingredients" :|o . I was planning on reusing mine too, although I haven't decided how yet.

Edited by vlk, 16 August 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#48 cyberger

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:14 PM

I can't think of anything wrong with that, although that link says it has 83% "other ingredients" :|o . I was planning on reusing mine too, although I haven't decided how yet.


Finding a purer iodine disinfectant would be great (although if a substance is safe for oral consumption, minor substance residue absorbed nasally should probably be pretty benign too).

There was a 99.5% pure iodine crystal purifier on Amazon called Polar Pure (http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B00068M3HY/)- with advantages such as indefinite shelf-life, ability to treat 2,000 quarts per bottle, and more. Unfortunately Polar pure was pulled off the market, since iodine is now semi-regulated being a possible precursor for meth (http://www.polarequi...om/purchase.htm). A little googling showed this Canadian 'home business' like website which sells iodine crystals for purification: http://www.raems.com/webad/USP0.html. Another option might be iodine supplements sold on Amazon such as this USP 4% potassium iodine/water mixture: http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B001AEFM9Y/. If anyone has thoughts on best/cheapest sources please chime in.

Vik, would be curious to hear your disinfectant method once you figure it out.

Edited by cyberger, 16 August 2013 - 04:16 PM.


#49 Krabby

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:33 PM

What sort of dangers are we looking for in terms of infection and such from the equipment considering we are not directly injecting it into the blood stream?
Is it any safer than going the IM and IV route?

#50 cyberger

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:01 PM

What sort of dangers are we looking for in terms of infection and such from the equipment considering we are not directly injecting it into the blood stream?
Is it any safer than going the IM and IV route?


Intranasal has several safety advantages over IM/IV - no risk for an embolism, no risk of damaging veins or nerves, no risk of glass particles getting embedded in tissues (although there are various viewpoints on the risk from glass particles).

Another advantage with intranasal administration is the mucosal skin layer provides some protection against pathogens, which injections bypass.

Then there's the potential advantage of superior absorption - based on the the mouse research (in post #1 of this thread) which showed intranasal delivery achieved a greater concentration of cerebrolysin in the brain where IV delivery increased cerebrolysin concentrations in the peripheral organs.

If a person used completely sterile equipment for IN, there wouldn't appear to be any risk for infection. Proper equipment sterilization would seem to keep the infection risk pretty minimal as well. Seems like the only risk would be the few bacteria or viruses that would get on the equipment from being exposure to the air or touching the nose.

The equipment itself would probably not be a very good growth surface for bacteria. On the other hand, cerebrolysin, since it is composed of amino acids, would provide some of the building blocks for bacterial growth. So making sure the equipment is dry, clean from cerebrolysin, and sterilized from viruses and bacteria should keep the equipment pretty safe for reuse.

Edited by cyberger, 16 August 2013 - 09:16 PM.

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#51 Krabby

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:29 PM

Hey, thanks for the long answer :D
I would be just curious to know if those bacteria/viruses would be easily absorbed through the nasal walls like the chemicals.

#52 cyberger

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:55 PM

Hey, thanks for the long answer :D
I would be just curious to know if those bacteria/viruses would be easily absorbed through the nasal walls like the chemicals.


Flu shot vaccines vs nasal spray flu vaccines might provide a clue: injected flu shots contain a dead version of the virus, while the flu mist (administered intranasally) contains a live-attenuated version of the virus, yet still does not cause the flu; while still causing an immune reaction. So the body seems better able to handle viruses delivered via the nose.

More about the flu mist:
http://www.webmd.com...ray-flu-vaccine
http://www.fda.gov/B...s/ucm080754.htm

#53 vlk

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:59 AM

Some very good points...

The main problem will probably be stuff growing in the cerebrolysin itself. If it is stored in the fridge, that might not actually be a problem anyway, but it's better to be safe than sorry!
Chitosan is looking really good as an additive now...

#54 eno

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:15 PM

For now maybe a simpler cheaper way to avoid contamination to some extent is to simply decompress the spray ejector only after pulling it out from the nasal passages and wiping the tip with an alcohol swab?

I put 10 ml Cerebrolysin in a simple nasal sprayer and applied it 3 times per day. It lasted 1 week. Starting the next 10 ml now.

I am new to Cerebrolysin and have no clear effects by now. Will continue for the next weeks.

Thanks to AuralAnomaly! Nasal administration may be much more cost effective than IM.

#55 cyberger

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:00 PM

Another data point regarding intranasal administration product safety: http://www.neilmed.c...se_isotonic.php and similar products clean nasal passages with a saline solution. Side effects from the saline wash are usually low, however, when used with unsterilized tap water there have been a couple of cases of death caused by Naegleria fowleri, popularly known as the "brain-eating amoeba". For example, "In the United States, in December 2011, a 51-year-old woman in Louisiana died after flushing her sinuses with infected tap water" http://www.wafb.com/...rare-infection.

"If you are irrigating, flushing, or rinsing your sinuses, for example, by using a neti pot, use distilled, sterile or previously boiled water to make up the irrigation solution," said Louisiana State Epidemiologist, Dr. Raoult Ratard. "Tap water is safe for drinking, but not for irrigating your nose."

This page describes the disinfection protocol that Nielsmed recommends to avoid disease risk: (http://www.neilmed.c...sa/use_npsr.php).

The takeway point seems to be use distilled water with the cleaning agent when disinfecting equipment, and storing clean equipment in a cool, dry place, with adequate ventilation.

#56 MasterHerb

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

Just waiting for my cerebrolysin, which should be here early next week and I will give this a go...

#57 Mr Matsubayashi

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:19 PM

20 pack from ebay: http://www.ebay.com....=item3cd20a9c81

Cleaning is too much effort. Will probably use one per week.

I will update thread on results after my kit arrives.

#58 kobokok

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:47 AM

MAD500 Mucosal Atomization Device, MADomizer, Box of 5, CT* Help Orphans: http://www.ebay.com....tm/190871457704

MADOMIZER DISPOSABLE TIP CATALOG NUMBER MAD510 WOLFE TROY MEDICAL BAG OF 50: http://www.ebay.com....tm/281104189515

#59 Sholrak

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 03:24 AM

Are buying Cerebrolysin vials and preparing them for intranasal? Is that safe? Could not the cere they are using in intranasal studies be another preparation designed for nasal absortion?

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#60 jdeer

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 03:27 AM

Hey, thanks for the long answer :D
I would be just curious to know if those bacteria/viruses would be easily absorbed through the nasal walls like the chemicals.


Flu shot vaccines vs nasal spray flu vaccines might provide a clue: injected flu shots contain a dead version of the virus, while the flu mist (administered intranasally) contains a live-attenuated version of the virus, yet still does not cause the flu; while still causing an immune reaction. So the body seems better able to handle viruses delivered via the nose.

More about the flu mist:
http://www.webmd.com...ray-flu-vaccine
http://www.fda.gov/B...s/ucm080754.htm



great post this thread is full of great info





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