18 replies to this topic

[Bluedot]

Do you think it is safe to take one low dose of 1 mg of selegiline (jumex brand) per day with either rhodiola rosea or ashwagandha?

I would love to combine selegiline with one of the 2 adaptogens as both seems to have cortisol reducing effects while selegiline increase the dopamine level.

For the selegiline/rhodiola combo, I think not as selegiline is a very potent irreversible MOA-B inhibitor while rhodiola is weaker and reversible but still a MOA-B inhibitor. However since we are just discussing here 1 (one) mg per day with a reversible MOA-B inhibitor like rhodiola, maybe it is still OK?

As for the selegiline/ashwagandha combo, it is still not clear to me if the indian herb has any MOA-B inhibitory effect. To me this combo would be safer for someone like me who is looking to increase dopamine + decrease cortisol. Any ideas please?

Edited by Aioros, 03 September 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Tom_]

Why are you looking to decrease cortisol and increase dopamine?

[Bluedot]

I am very busy running my own business here so I suffer chronic stress and I think I should lower my cortisol level to mitigate the negative effects of chronically elevated cortisol.

Dopamine would supposedly help me sustain my drive to work hard. Well, this is what I understood (correctly or incorrectly) a supplement/drug that boosts one's dopamine level would do based on my readings here.

I would love to combine both but if I cannot I would choose an adaptogen as lowering cortisol is my first priority for now.

Edited by Aioros, 03 September 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[IggyKoopa]

I take 500mg rhodiola daily with 1.25mg of selegiline. I had tried adding ashwaganda as well recently, but haven't really noticed anything positive or negative so when the bottle runs out I'm not reordering. I haven't had any negative effects from this combo, but you may want to wait for someone with more of a medical background to chime in as sometimes the health impacts aren't obvious. I've been using this combo for about 3 months so far. From my experience I would recommend the rhodiola first, it's not very expensive and has a positive impact on my mood and energy. The selegiline is noticeable at higher doses, at 1.25mg daily it doesn't have very obvious effects, but I'm taking it more for the possible longevity improvements.

[Bluedot]

Thanks IggyKoopa for sharing your experience! Your 3-month experience with the selegiline/rhodiola combo is for me already a good sign as you did not have any adverse reactions at least quickly. Agreed, a few more feedback from people with a longer term use of this combo would definitely help.

I started using rhodiola for a few days only but I do feel better, better as in better mood and more able to focus on my work. As for a change in energy level, too early to tell here. I do not know if this is some kind of placebo effect because this is what I read some people experienced and I expect rightfully or not the same results so I will just have to continue for a week at least to know how I really respond to the russian herb. I am personally taking 200mg right after I wake up and one hour before lunch for an additional 200mg.

As for selegiline, may I ask if you cycle it as people say here for instance 4 weeks on, 1 week off, even at your low dose of 1.25 mg? I read about the tolerance issue and I appreciate that everyone responds differently.

[IggyKoopa]

I haven't been cycling it so far. I may in the future, but I don't see any reason to at this low of a dose. The only negative I've noticed is the first few weeks I was taking selegiline I became sensitive to green and black tea. I felt slightly uncomfortable when I drank them, it was a hard to describe feeling, but more annoying than really bad. After a few weeks that went away though.

[brainslugged]

I don't see any obvious interactions between selegiline and the other two as long as you aren't taking it with any strong stimulants.

I don't think that rhodiola is a terribly strong MAOI, so I wouldn't worry too much.

Also, if you are looking to decrease cortisol, don't forget about ginkgo biloba. Specifically the extract mentioned in this thread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12369732

and (not a source itself, but interesting and cites other sources) http://www.ergo-log.com/ginkgo.html

[Tom_]

Hypercortisolism or cushings syndrome (to much cortisol) is a deadly medical syndrome if the underlying disorder isn't managed or cured. Having hypercortisolism comes in two strains; clinical (typically caused by taking steroids or a tumor and is the deadly form) and sub-clinical (barely detectable chronic increase in cortisol typically associated with severe melancholic depressive disorder more often with psychotic features, schizophrenia or severe anxiety disorders).

I'm going to go ahead and assume you are worrying about the second being a problem. Unless you have a diagnosed mental disorder then cortisol isn't a worry. The increased amount in the most severe depression isn't enough to cause more than transient physical problems but is may be a significant contribution to psychotic depressive symptoms. Cortisol receptor antagonists are being developed for this. However for chronic low grade stress you could make an argument for cortisol not being produced enough.

Increasing dopamine & noradrenaline levels in the body (its impossible to do one without the other as dopamine is turned into noradrenaline) are the main aims for increasing activity levels and attention span. Noradrenaline is actually going to be a bigger part of the whole 'drive' you are looking for, as will increasing cholinergic activity.

I'm against the use of Selegiline or other MAOIs unless its for a medical disorder. Its needlessly dangerous with no long term evidence for safety and no short term evidence of efficacy in non-medical conditions.

Other nootropics have the same problems but are no where near as theoretically dangerous as an MAOI.

Three supplements I think would be of particular value to you are: Citicholine, Sulbutramine & DLPA.

Citicholine increases dopamine receptor densities, stabilizes neuronal membranes, increases choinergic, adrenergic and dopaminergic activity in the short term through an unknown but reasonably potent mechanism, acts as a choline source and finally increases adrenal gland & thyroid function. Overall a stimulant which will help you focus, improve short/working and long term memory, increase energy etc..

DLPA is a precursor to dopamine and noradrenaline - its turned into those neurotransmitters inside the body once its crossed the blood brain barrier. It will have some of the effects Citicholine and combined will increase stimulation.

Sulburtramine can be used either as a short term stimulant or a longer term supplement that will lose some of its stimulating qualities but work 'behind the scenes'. In the short term doses between 600-1400mg should be used and can have some surprisingly potent effects. If you would prefer to use it long term doses anywhere between 100-2000 could be trialed although I would suggest a gradual increase to around 300-600mg once in the morning or twice a day well before bed time. It will reduce kinate receptors in the PFC, increasing glu activity, lowers dopamine in the PFC increasing D1 receptor densities (which are vital for regulating the other dopamine receptors), has a poorly understood action on the reticular activating system - which is likely causing the wakefulness effect and increases cholinergic activity in the hippocampus.

After toying around with these three you could try racetams (I always recommend Piracetam) for longer term use, Modafinil (at lower dosages) or one of its family (ardafinil for example) and experiment with adaptogens which certainly have the least support and usually worst reviews.

If you are hell bent on lowering your cortisol the best way to do it - due to lack of other proven methods is by increasing your serotonergic activity - a mix of St Johns Wort and L-Tryptophan.

As a side note, yes it should be reasonably safe but selegiline is not a drug to play around with unless its for a diagnosed medical problem imo.

Edited by Tom_, 03 September 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[lammas2]

Increasing dopamine & noradrenaline levels in the body (its impossible to do one without the other as dopamine is turned into noradrenaline)

Can be done by using a dopamine beta hydroxylase inhibitor.

[gerass]

Listen to tom he knows his stuff

[Tom_]

Good point, lammas 2 - while I wouldn't recommend a DBHI it certainly would have that effect (I only know of two, maybe three, 2 of which I would say are safe enough to be used (backed by studies of safety)).

thanks for the faith gerass!

[Bluedot]

@ IggyKoopa :

Thanks for letting me know. I read that green tea for instance contains a lot of catechin/epicatechin and that these are also (reversible) MOA-B inhibitors. I do also drink green tea.

@ brainslugged :

Yes, I also think that rhodiola is a weak (reversible) MOA-B inhibitor so I think the danger is pretty limited for most people by itself. Now with a potent irreversible one like selegiline... I am not sure yet.

As for ginkgo, I am already taking 100mg per day for a long time, never had an issue with it as part of my daily multivitamins. I used the specific extract you mentioned as in France it goes by the name of Tanakan (brand) as the other French fellow said in the other thread. Thanks for bringing this up, I never knew that ginkgo could have an effect on cortisol.

@ Tom_ :

First, thanks a lot for your thoughtful reply to my specific question. I really appreciate it.

Yes, you are right about the second problem in your reply. I am worrying about the negative effects of chronically elevated cortisol even if it is just at a sub-clinical level. Even though not severe at all, I am still feeling a bit depressive and anxious for the last few weeks as my work became more stressful recently. I did try rhodiola for a few days and I do feel better, at least my mood is better.

Based on my readings here, for raising dopamine this time, I actually have now a bottle of CDP-choline that I plan to try separately from rhodiola (I always try a new supplement by itself just to single out its effects, or lack thereof). Your support for this supplement is welcomed, hopefully it will have a positive effect on me.

As for subultiamine, I read that it does upregulate D1 receptors so it should increase dopamine but since I found less feedback and info about it compared to selegiline I just recorded this in my list of dopaminergics for future investigation. I could always try it for a few days later on.

Now for DLPA, I also got myself the LPA version as well to try later on. I did not choose DLPA as the D form of PA is more specific to pain reduction IIRC so I went straight to the L form. I am a newbie so I am not sure and just want to try as I learned from members here that response to a drug/supplement is highly individual.

Regarding the racetams, I also got a bottle of pramiracetam. Piracetam didn't have any effects on me when I tried a few years ago (Nootropil brand) but since the pramira version is, it seems, way more potent, I thought it could be a good idea to try. I bought CDP-choline to use alone or with the pramiracetam.

Well, as you can see, I am just trying stuff and see what works for me and hope for the best even after reading tons of posts here and articles elsewhere. Selegiline, as a potent drug, is something I want to use as the last resort even if its side effects are clearly defined by now. However, tons of people here are using it so I still keep this one as an option.

Edited by Aioros, 03 September 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[Tom_]

This sounds perfectly reasonable and well thought out to me.

Before you try selegiline I would recommend a trial of Moclobemide. Its a reversible MAO-A inhibitor and has a lot more evidence backing it for use in depressive and anxiety disorders. Its safe, with no food restrictions bar massive amounts of tryamine or on a high dose (above 900mg).

Trying sulbutramine (if you're interested in long term use) for a few days might give a bit of a false impression. Tolerance to its fairly potent stimulant effects sets in within a few days but it has a large MAO that will continue to have effects.

If these depressive/anxiety symptoms persist I would present to a doctor rather than try and self treat. Moclobemide is rarely used as first-line antidepressant but its very potent and has no more of a side effect burden than an SSRI, arguably a lot less (all be it fairly different side effects), which makes it a perfect option.

[IggyKoopa]

No problem, I guess I should list my whole stack, since it seems you are interested in a few things I am trying. Also since Tom seems knowledgeable in these things he could point out if I'm doing anything wrong. I've been doing similar to you, researching on here and putting together a stack for memory (haven't noticed significant improvements yet), motivation, and longevity.

with or before breakfast:
800mg Oxyracetam
500mg ALCAR
400mg sulbutiamine (6 days a week, I don't take it on my day off from the gym)
500mg Rhodiola
1 serving MusclePharm Assualt (preworkout)

After workout:
5g Creatine
1 tsp Maca (just started this, seems positive so far, but tastes horrible)

Afternoon:
20mg noopept (not sure if I'll continue with this, had stopped taking it and just reintroduced it this week)
1.25mg Selegiline

Before bed:
1 serving MusclePharm Bulletproof (not sure if I'll continue this, I feel groggy waking up with it)
1tbsp coconut oil


Other things I have tried but I'm not taking anymore:
Pramaracetam: the taste was bad and I don't have a pill capper
Sunifiram: seems to work fine, but I prefer oxyracetam
Ashwaganda: didn't notice any positive effects
Picamilon: works as an anxiolytic, but makes me feel slow(mentally)
Choline Bitartate: was causing mild depression. May have been too much when combined with the ALCAR for me.


Taken as needed:
Baicalin: for muscle pain or as an anxiolytic, about once a week
Phenibut: recreationaly, about once a month
Kanna: just started using it, for me personally it feels like there is a potential for addiction with minimal benefits. I'm currently taking it about once or twice a week, may discontinue it. One pinch sublingually.


Haven't started taking yet, but ordered or thinking about it:
MCT oil, PQQ, CoQ10 and Shilajit (I'm going to try Lostfalco's lllt recommendations)

I also lift pretty heavy 6 days a week and do yoga 2 or 3 days. I originally started looking into nootropics to help improve my memory(which is pretty bad), but have seen minimal improvements for that. What I am taking has helped a lot with motivation and improving my mood though. Plus I have fun experimenting(responsibly I hope).

Edited by IggyKoopa, 04 September 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Bluedot]

@ Tom_ :

Thanks for the additional advice. For the moment, I will give a good try with the 2 adaptogens alone first before doing any combos with a drug or using drugs alone.

Of course, the best solution would be to reduce stress from work in the first place, the root cause in my case, and I am taking steps to deal with this. I also start to exercise in the morning (I run for 30-40 minutes) as I know this helps with tons of issues naturally including stress and (light) depression/anxiety. I have no issues with poor diet and poor sleep fortunately.

@ IggyKoopa :

While I was reading your stack for memory/motivation/longevity, I was surprised you didn't list fish oils or anything that ultimately provides your brain with DHA/EPA. Since I added fish oils on top of my multivitamins, my memory and mood definitely improved which is in line with what most diet articles stated fortunately.

I also have fun doing self-experiments after doing tons of research on a specific agent. Being normal does not interest me, like having a normal lifespan


PS: I forgot to add that I am also taking a (couple of) tablespoon per day of extra virgin coconut oil like you as it seems it is beneficial for a few things thanks to its lauric acid and MCTs. This has nothing to do with my initial question directly but being a bit healthier thanks to a healthier fat does help indirectly.

Edited by Aioros, 04 September 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[IggyKoopa]

I actually have some fish oil, but for some reason forget to take it regularly so didn't add it to the list.

[Healthyfreek]

I think low dose selegiline can be combined with adaptogens. I do know that ashwagandha does not have any herb-drug interactions and is very safe. I love a particular brand called KSM-66 ashwagandha from Nutrigold.

[deeptrance]

I strongly recommend that everyone interested in (or already taking) selegiline should instead consider rasagiline. There are several reasons why it is the better choice, most of which can be found in one or both of these pages:
http://www.sciencedi...210533612000731
http://www.rasagiline.com/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23196982
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18035186
http://www.parkinson...AO-B-inhibitors

And for what it's worth, my take is that it's very safe to combine ordinary dosages of rhodiola, ashwagandha, and selegiline or rasagiline. I've taken rasagiline for up to a month at a time while on the two adaptogens plus many other herbs, supplements, and meds, without any problem except for a feeling that I wasn't sleeping as well with the extra dopamine push. In my case, I'm already taking so many dopaminergic herbs and supplements that it was total overkill to add an MAO-B inhibitor.

Edited by deeptrance, 21 January 2014 - 03:09 AM.

[chemicalambrosia]

There aren't many experience reports on rasagiline vs selegiline. How many people have taken both and can recommend one over the other?