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dark side of probiotics ???

probiotics

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#1 evolvedhuman2012

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:21 AM


has anyone ever felt temporary minor ills from probiotics especially diary related such as yogurt,kefir,sour cream and so on?

i got curious and did some digging. i found at least one credible source on it but browsed others as well.


"
The NCMA also warns that probiotics may also prompt unhealthy metabolic activities, gene transfer or overstimulation of the immune system. Probiotics are not recommended for use if you have severe pancreatitis as they may increase your chances of mortality from this illness, according to a study published in the "Lancet" in February 2008." - http://www.livestron...s-make-me-sick/


yes another fine example of the great scientific insight that has been gained and yet so much more that is unclear. humans seriously shouldn't be messing with things they don't understand very well and endangering each other.



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#2 normalizing

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:35 AM

the whole mania for probiotics is really absurd. taking so many billions of various bacteria in your body which by evolution has only gotten used to several strains in various amounts is insanity. i dunno where people get all their crap of "probiotics, good, take more please" but sounds like propaganda from the manufacturers. there is not a single long term study on taking various dozen amonts of probiots in long periods of months to prove you get any benefit whatsoever even the most commonly proposed one as immunity.
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#3 evolvedhuman2012

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:15 AM

the whole mania for probiotics is really absurd. taking so many billions of various bacteria in your body which by evolution has only gotten used to several strains in various amounts is insanity. i dunno where people get all their crap of "probiotics, good, take more please" but sounds like propaganda from the manufacturers. there is not a single long term study on taking various dozen amonts of probiots in long periods of months to prove you get any benefit whatsoever even the most commonly proposed one as immunity.


yeah well, propaganda, greed, political corruption... a lot of these going on in US nowadays...and i thought china is out of control. ok china is a lot worse but there are a lot that are causes for concerns in america today. :mellow:

Edited by evolvedhuman2012, 11 October 2013 - 05:15 AM.

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#4 joelcairo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:31 AM

there is not a single long term study on taking various dozen amonts of probiots in long periods of months to prove you get any benefit whatsoever even the most commonly proposed one as immunity.


Why don't people do even the simplest research before making sweeping statements like this? Here's the result of literally 5 minutes' searching. I don't have a particularly strong opinion about them, but it's necessary to look at the evidence before committing to an opinion.

Probiotics reduces the frequency of atopic disease in children...
Probiotics in primary prevention of atopic disease: a randomised placebo-controlled trial
http://www.sciencedi...140673600042598

... also respiratory infections...
Effect of long term consumption of probiotic milk on infections in children attending day care centres: double blind, randomised trial
http://www.bmj.com/c...t/322/7298/1327

... also antibiotic-related diarrhoea...
Probiotics in prevention of antibiotic associated diarrhoea: meta-analysis
http://www.bmj.com/c...t/324/7350/1361

... also C. Difficile infections, which can be quite serious...
Meta-Analysis of Probiotics for the Prevention of Antibiotic Associated Diarrhea and the Treatment of Clostridium difficile Disease
http://www.nature.co...jg2006155a.html

Edited by joelcairo, 11 October 2013 - 05:32 AM.

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#5 joelcairo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

Okay, as for the original post, note that it was conducted in patients presenting with severe acute pancreatitis.

I stumbled on a follow-up study by the same authors as that of post 1. This study suggests that probiotics may not even be a problem with respect to severe acute pancreatitis unless it is accompanied by organ failure. Make of that what you will. To me, it doesn't seem like a very sinister "dark side".

"We previously demonstrated that probiotic prophylaxis, in patients with predicted severe pancreatitis, did not prevent infectious complications but unexpectedly increased the risk of bowel ischemia and mortality. The suggestion that these negative findings are only observed in the presence of organ failure at the start of probiotic treatment has not been confirmed."

"Conclusion: In this retrospective study no apparent positive or negative impact of probiotic treatment with Probioflora was demonstrated when administered to patients with predicted severe acute pancreatitis without initial organ failure."

Probiotic treatment with Probioflora in patients with predicted severe acute pancreatitis without organ failure
http://www.sciencedi...424390312001895
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#6 blood

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

humans seriously shouldn't be messing with things they don't understand very well and endangering each other.



Just recently there have been findings that
- taking a certain probiotic increases serum Vitamin D levels (who would have guessed?)
- taking a certain prebiotic enhances tolerability of metformin & therefore improves blood sugar control (who would have guessed?)

This is a very exciting area of research which doesn't get much attention at Longevity.

Longevity forums should set up a "Microbiome" sub-forum!

Edited by blood, 11 October 2013 - 08:56 AM.

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#7 japish

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:31 PM

I started taking probiotics (specifically acidophilus) when suggested by my Dr. for my stomach and digestive problems. Not only after years of suffering has my problems completely dissappeared, but I feel like a newly reborn person with enhanced mood, clarity, and energy. I would attribute the "enchanced" part to the fact that I'm not dealing with pain on a daily basis and not necessarily to a cognitive boost directly from the probiotics. My daughter had also been suffering with stomach pain recently and so I began to give her probiotics -- her pain went away completely. This being said I would not entirely dismiss the use of probiotics for those with already healthy digestive systems. Since this beneficial bacteria already lives in your gut, there is no reason to believe that keeping that supply strong and refreshed is harmful. In fact, just the opposite. I have often heard as the digestive system referred to as the "second brain". There are so many nerves and hormones associated with this system that directly affect our mood and energy and thus other cognitive factors. It is this relationship that should make everyone, especially those interested in bio-enchancing supplements or activities be very interested in probiotics. I would not suggest that everyone immediately go out and buy probiotics because of my positive experience, but I did want to relay the fact that it is because of probiotics that my life has been positively transformed. I'm sure there are those out there who have healthy diets which include natural sources of these bacteria would not see any benefit from supplementing with probiotics. But in my case, and I'm sure many others, especially those who are taking various types of toxic drugs or antibiotics, can and will benefit from this supplement.
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#8 evolvedhuman2012

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:10 PM

I started taking probiotics (specifically acidophilus) when suggested by my Dr. for my stomach and digestive problems. Not only after years of suffering has my problems completely dissappeared, but I feel like a newly reborn person with enhanced mood, clarity, and energy. I would attribute the "enchanced" part to the fact that I'm not dealing with pain on a daily basis and not necessarily to a cognitive boost directly from the probiotics. My daughter had also been suffering with stomach pain recently and so I began to give her probiotics -- her pain went away completely. This being said I would not entirely dismiss the use of probiotics for those with already healthy digestive systems. Since this beneficial bacteria already lives in your gut, there is no reason to believe that keeping that supply strong and refreshed is harmful. In fact, just the opposite. I have often heard as the digestive system referred to as the "second brain". There are so many nerves and hormones associated with this system that directly affect our mood and energy and thus other cognitive factors. It is this relationship that should make everyone, especially those interested in bio-enchancing supplements or activities be very interested in probiotics. I would not suggest that everyone immediately go out and buy probiotics because of my positive experience, but I did want to relay the fact that it is because of probiotics that my life has been positively transformed. I'm sure there are those out there who have healthy diets which include natural sources of these bacteria would not see any benefit from supplementing with probiotics. But in my case, and I'm sure many others, especially those who are taking various types of toxic drugs or antibiotics, can and will benefit from this supplement.



well ok, i heard similar suggestions as well. yet i also heard they disagreed with some people from their testimonies. it may be everyone is in different metabolic state disease- free or not.

#9 jadamgo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

My experience has been that adding probiotics to the diet can cause mild and temporary stomach troubles. It's not a big deal and it only lasts 2-3 days, if it even happens at all. The same thing happens when a person who wasn't getting enough fiber starts adding fiber to their diet. Your system needs a little time to get used to it. After the first few days, a good probiotic supplement should actually make things run better down there, not worse.

Usually, the only people who have seriously bad reactions to probiotics are those with compromised immune systems, and those people should definitely not be taking strong probiotic supplements.

#10 niner

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

the whole mania for probiotics is really absurd. taking so many billions of various bacteria in your body which by evolution has only gotten used to several strains in various amounts is insanity.


Where are you getting this? People who only have several strains of bacteria in their gut are seriously unhealthy. Healthy guts have a diverse microbiome with lots of different strains.
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#11 niner

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:59 PM

The LiveStrong site that the OP linked seems to have a lot of "anti-probiotic" articles. Frankly, I think some of it is ignorant. Maybe some people are confusing PREbiotics with PRObiotics. Prebiotics are "food" for gut microbes, the most common example being fructo-oligosaccharide (FOS). This can cause gas and bloating in some people. There are probiotic mixes that also contain FOS, which may lead to confusion about the cause of the problem.

Obviously, if you are severely immunocompromised or suffering from certain forms of organ failure, then you should be under a doctor's care, but your case has little bearing on the effects of any particular therapy on healthy people.

#12 Darryl

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:58 PM

The intestinal tract is a bit like a plug flow reactor for bacterial culture. One way to shift the microbiome is by intermittently adding preferred strains at the entry, but feeding the beneficial strains with phytochemicals and resistant starches seems equally effective. For example, high polyphenol diets promote Bacteriodes over obesity-associated Fermicutes. Strains that produce cancer fighting propionate and butyrate are promoted by dietary fiber. And eating α-galactosides promotes beneficial intestinal bacteria like Bifidobacterium. In vitro, beneficial Bifidobacterium and Lactobacilus grow well on raffinose, while the pathogen E. coli does poorly, and deadly C. difficile does not grow at all. Yes, the α-galactosides also promote flatuence, but perhaps this is a small cost for the longevity benefits of beans.

Probiotics seem like a great idea for reestablishing some healthy strains after a course of antibiotics. When antibiotic use is superfluous, it probably does a lot more harm than good.

Edited by Darryl, 11 October 2013 - 10:00 PM.

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#13 blood

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:25 PM

Longevity forums


Pretty sure I wrote "Longecity". I guess it's the autocorrect. :/
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#14 neilsons

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:20 PM

the whole mania for probiotics is really absurd. taking so many billions of various bacteria in your body which by evolution has only gotten used to several strains in various amounts is insanity. i dunno where people get all their crap of "probiotics, good, take more please" but sounds like propaganda from the manufacturers. there is not a single long term study on taking various dozen amonts of probiots in long periods of months to prove you get any benefit whatsoever even the most commonly proposed one as immunity.



good point
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#15 blood

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:55 AM

And eating α-galactosides promotes beneficial intestinal bacteria like Bifidobacterium. In vitro, beneficial Bifidobacterium and Lactobacilus grow well on raffinose, while the pathogen E. coli does poorly, and deadly C. difficile does not grow at all. Yes, the α-galactosides also promote flatuence, but perhaps this is a small cost for the longevity benefits of beans.


Thanks for the info & links on raffinose - fascinating.

Look at this digestive enzyme product by Jarrow - they have included alpha galactosidase which digests raffinose:

http://www.iherb.com...00-Capsules/257

Presumably inclusion of galactosidase reduces bloating/ gas from legumes, but people using products like this might miss out on some of the health benefits associated with legumes.

Edited by blood, 13 October 2013 - 06:22 AM.


#16 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:09 AM

The issue as I see it is the enormous amount of antibiotics fed to factory farm animals typically targets gram positive bacteria, which are the beneficial strains we should be promoting in our gut. The Roundup herbicide non-organic GMO vegetable crops are drenched in now days also plays havoc with gut flora, so even vegans are not safe from this effect. Agricultural weeds are becoming "Roundup Resistant" and the EPA recently (July/2013) increased the levels of glyphosate allowed for use on food crops and animal feed crops.

Gram negative bacteria promoted by consumption of factory farmed meat and vegetables generate ENDOTOXIN (lipopolysaccharide), which provokes a substantial immune/inflammatory response when blood levels increase in portal circulation from the GI tract to the liver causing proliferation of kupffer cells and inflammatory cytokine release. Sorry I don't have any links handy for you, but this is something everyone should be researching on their own.

Failure to promote healthy gram-positive bacteria strains, or control endotoxin from unhealthy gram-negative strains when antibiotic and glyphosate consumption is high is a recipe for ill health, primarily centered around liver function; and the epidemic of non-alcoholic liver disease occurring in America today is evidence of this problem.

Pre and pro-biotic correction of gut flora destabilized by consumption of today's factory farmed foods is a complex subject, but ignore it at your peril as the problem is very real. Keep your liver happy (by maintaining a healthy gut flora) and your liver will keep you happy and healthy. There is no other way I know of to do this than through pre and/or pro-biotic therapy.

I'm hoping some of the more "enquiring minds" at longecity will look into this and provide some more input.

Edited by synesthesia, 13 October 2013 - 08:08 AM.

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#17 evolvedhuman2012

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:28 PM

The issue as I see it is the enormous amount of antibiotics fed to factory farm animals typically targets gram positive bacteria, which are the beneficial strains we should be promoting in our gut. The Roundup herbicide non-organic GMO vegetable crops are drenched in now days also plays havoc with gut flora, so even vegans are not safe from this effect. Agricultural weeds are becoming "Roundup Resistant" and the EPA recently (July/2013) increased the levels of glyphosate allowed for use on food crops and animal feed crops.

Gram negative bacteria promoted by consumption of factory farmed meat and vegetables generate ENDOTOXIN (lipopolysaccharide), which provokes a substantial immune/inflammatory response when blood levels increase in portal circulation from the GI tract to the liver causing proliferation of kupffer cells and inflammatory cytokine release. Sorry I don't have any links handy for you, but this is something everyone should be researching on their own.

Failure to promote healthy gram-positive bacteria strains, or control endotoxin from unhealthy gram-negative strains when antibiotic and glyphosate consumption is high is a recipe for ill health, primarily centered around liver function; and the epidemic of non-alcoholic liver disease occurring in America today is evidence of this problem.

Pre and pro-biotic correction of gut flora destabilized by consumption of today's factory farmed foods is a complex subject, but ignore it at your peril as the problem is very real. Keep your liver happy (by maintaining a healthy gut flora) and your liver will keep you happy and healthy. There is no other way I know of to do this than through pre and/or pro-biotic therapy.

I'm hoping some of the more "enquiring minds" at longecity will look into this and provide some more input.



gmo influences are everywhere these days....
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#18 evolvedhuman2012

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:36 PM

offer up more detailed scientific explanation why some people who take probiotic supplements feel ill and then we'll talk...

#19 niner

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:53 AM

offer up more detailed scientific explanation why some people who take probiotic supplements feel ill and then we'll talk...


Tell us exactly what's in the probiotic product that seems to be causing problems, and THEN we'll talk. (I'm suspicious of FOS)

#20 Dorian Grey

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:54 AM

I take 750mg of FOS with every meal and I must admit... It can increase gas! Interestingly, the gas it produces is all but odorless, and any "windstorms" I get from it are episodic and pass quickly (if you'll pardon the pun). .

The evil gram negative bacteria are known to feed on sulfur compounds and thus produce sulfurous gasses, while FOS feeds bifidobacterium which apparently give off less noxious odors. This is just my own experience, but it may well be that malodorous flatus is a good indicator of gut dysbiosis or elevated gram negative bacteria colonies.

I take FOS because of what I've read about the limitations of probiotics regarding survival in dry/unrefrigerated supplement form, as well as survival of probiotic strains through the gastric acid bath they get when taking them orally. One strain that has been well studied and shown to pass the "acid test" is lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) or LGG found in the commercial brand "Culturelle", so I also take this to boost lactobacillus (as well as the bifidobacterium from FOS) in my gut.

I've been on this combo for almost a year now and really feel it is beneficial to my health. Some chronic issues I'd been having with brain fog, lifted "like a fog", and my head is clear and thought processes sharp. Digestion is great and I can eat anything I like. My stool is healthy and neutrally buoyant, and any gas I have is free of noxious lingering odors. I simply feel better!

I did go off my FOS and LGG recently, when I was taking a road trip with my sweetheart as I wanted to minimize gas. After a few days and more than a few fine dining experiences on rather rich food, I noticed although gas production was lower, the gas I was generating had become substantially more odorous. This was the first time I had smelled anything like that coming out of ME for quite a while, and it really took me by surprise. I spent the rest of the trip running for cover every time I had a little bubble to vent and was glad to get home and start back on my bowel tonics again which quickly cleared up my odor issues.

Edited by synesthesia, 16 October 2013 - 02:07 AM.

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#21 Strelok

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:11 PM

The threat posed by not enough probiotics of various beneficial strains far outweighs any potential negative side-effects. We are meant to have a large, diverse population of microbiota to help modulate our immune system and metabolism, competitively inhibit pathogenic bacteria, create vitamins, and assist digestion. It is absurd to think they are not good for us. Many strains have millennium or century-old histories of beneficial use in humans, namely those in yogurt, kefir, cheese, some old-world beers, kombucha, sauerkraut, and others.

FOS is different than probiotics, and the judgement on one should not affect the other.

Edited by Strelok, 16 October 2013 - 09:12 PM.

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#22 JASOG888

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:05 AM

I tried Kefir several months ago and now I drink it pretty much every day. It gives me a pleasant relaxed feeling. I have had no unpleasant side effects except for feeling a little bloated once or twice. I have used it for a meal replacement many times, drinking about a quart of the stuff. I love the effect!

#23 nickdino

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

Has anyone tried qivana qore and/or metaboliq and/or pearls (elite)?


#24 Chris_T_Malta

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 01:26 PM

A lot of marketing bullshit is used in promoting "50bn bacteira in a cap" etc but we don't really know what arrives intact in the gut. A product could be genuine and really contain whatever is claimed; but still doesn't ensure the said bacteria (or some of them) will arrive intact in the gut. Unless this particular dilemma is revolved through some innovative delivery mechanism (such as a pill that can shield the bacteria in the stomach and then open in the gut), I am afraid pro-biotic supplementation business will be very tricky.


Occasionally I use the product called "Multibionta" where bacteria are shielded in a pill which in theory should dissolve in the gut.

 

http://www.seven-sea...ta/how-it-works

 

 



#25 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 04:51 PM

This is interesting. Basically says that a lot of probiotic strains will overstimulate the immune system, a huge problem for people who are Th1 dominant:

https://recoveringki.../16/probiotics/


 

Probiotics are everywhere these days. “With added probiotic cultures” has become a marketing catchphrase we can’t escape.

Their promise to boost our immune system sounds innocent enough. Who doesn’t want an extra daily surge of immune power?

The short answer is… most people!

In fact, “boosting” our immune system all of the time can cause more harm than good.

And although we rarely hear anything but accolades for probiotics, there are some skeletons in the closet that people rarely seem to discuss.

The first is that daily ingesting of most probiotics can overstimulate the immune system (offset the balance) and increase autoimmune responses.

We will share a list of which probiotics should be used with caution, but first, a brief explanation of the balance needed in our immune system may help.

The T-helper (Th) cells in our immune system operate in a balance.

When we have an acute illness, the Th1 (and Th17) cells are activated to fight invaders.

And that’s exactly what we want… when we’re sick in bed and our life affords exactly zero personal days.

But if those cells remain continually overactive (instead of shifting balance to Th2), they begin to attack things they shouldn’t ~ our own bodies, resulting in autoimmunity and chronic inflammation.

 

This balance can be affected by supplements that impact the immune system and they generally fall into one of three categories:

Th1 boosting — These signal the immune system to fight and increase inflammatory response (also boost Th17).

Th2 boosting — These stimulate the production of antibodies and decrease inflammatory response.

Th regulating — These are rare, but truly modulate balance between Th cells.

Which means, if you take supplements daily that increase Th1, you can cause or worsen autoimmune conditions.

If you aren’t familiar with pro-inflammatory autoimmune diseases, they include • Rheumatoid arthritis • Chron’s IBD • Celiac disease • Multiple sclerosis (MS) • Type 1 diabetes • Hashimoto’s • Guillain-Barré • Chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy • Psoriasis • PANS / PANDAS (Click here for more)

In my daughter’s case, her OCD & PANS symptoms are related to TH1 & 17 dominance and misdirected constant fighting causing brain inflammation.

PROBIOTIC REFERENCE LIST

Increase Th1:  Lactobacillus AcidophilusL PlantarumL CaseiL Rhamnosus GGL BulgaricusL ParacaseiL SporogenesL SalivariusL BrevisL FermentumBifidobacterium BreveStreptococcus ThermophilesEnterococcus FaecalisBacillus Subtilis & S Boulardii

Decrease Th1: Bifidobacterium Longum (infantis)B BifidumB Fragilis & Helveticus

Research for each is linked to their names, however, there is still so much unknown about the immune system that every strain carries some risk of acting on it in a way we haven’t yet discovered.

Additional information can be found at TH1 / TH2 ratio and Probiotics“The bottom line…most of the probiotics induce TH1 and reduce TH2.”

So, we know supplementing with probiotics can contribute to skewing the balance of our immune system and that can be harmful, but there are also additional reasons for lackluster reviews such as:

“If you interview any researcher who studies the gut microbiota for a living, there’s a very good chance that he or she doesn’t take probiotic supplements” [R]

Other Issues with Probiotics

Some people’s immune systems can’t differentiate between beneficial and harmful bacteria

“In people with weakened immunity, the so-called friendly bacteria which make up probiotics, are treated as hostile invaders.” [R]

This is especially important for children with PANS/PANDAS who may react negatively to all types of probiotics. When their condition is triggered by both “good” and bad bacteria, probiotics (and fermented foods in this case too) can cause inflammation and flare neurological symptoms.

Probiotic adjuvants can feed bad bacteria

Polysaccharides and fibers are added to most probiotics to help usher them to our gut. InulinInTactic® and FOS are some names you may see on the labels. Research has shown that these hybrid sugars can foster growth of undesirable bacteria.

Some studies have indicated they “encourage the growth of Klebsiella, a bacteria that causes intestinal permeability.. feed E. coli, many Clostridium species and some kinds of yeast.” [R]

Microbial imbalance, mislabeling, and gene transfer

Recent research shows that bacteria freely exchange genetic material and rapidly evolve. They can change form and overgrow quickly, creating microbial imbalance, a problem which is exacerbated further with manufacturer contamination issues.

Add to these concerns that several reports have found the some probiotic strains and cfu’s do not match product labels, and it’s evident that it’s nearly impossible to tell exactly which bacteria and how much of it you’re introducing into your microbiome. [R]

For anyone with a sensitive system, especially children, these concerns are quite significant and should not be overlooked.

Histamine issues

While this post has focused on inflammation caused by certain Th cells, histamines are also pro-inflammatory and are produced as part of a local immune response.

If your body can’t properly break down histamine, you can develop histamine intolerance or sensitivity. The symptoms are similar to traditional allergy symptoms.

Certain strains of probiotics are histamine producing and should be avoided by people with issues. Commonly known to raise histmine levels are: Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Lactobacillus casei, Streptococcus thermophilus, and Lactobacillus delbrueckii.

SIBO aggravation

If you have slow gut motility, probiotics you take may end up in your small intestine instead of your gut, where they belong.

The bacteria can then become opportunistic, produce hydrogen gas, and worsen small intestine bacteria overgrowth (SIBO) symptoms. In the end, you could be contributing to, rather than aiding digestive issues.


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#26 joelcairo

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:43 PM

Probiotics can make Crohn's disease worse? Maybe in theory for some people, but if I suffered from Crohn's I would sure try it and see.

 

Also, harmful for people who cannot break down histamine, have slow gut motility, etc.? I don't think anyone is saying there's no possible contraindication or that all probiotic strains are uniformly beneficial, but most of these risks are too exotic for me to worry about.


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#27 kurdishfella

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 09:20 PM

Bacteria can influence your mood in a negative way. People think hate motivates you but its actually from the anger.

Edited by kurdishfella, 16 May 2021 - 09:21 PM.






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