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Lithium Orotate -

lithium orotate supplement natural bipolar

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#1 rejwan

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:27 PM


I use Lithium Carbonate. I know that there is information that by taking Lithium Ororate instead of Lithium Carbonate, I would take much less lithium and have the same effect.

What would you all say about that?

But I have one concern - there is no well known brand produce it. I am not a fan of "large" producers actually, I always take my supplements with the brand "Swanson" and happy with that, all high quality and they deliver what they promise, fully satisfied with it.

But - I guess larger companies (Solgar, GNC and you name all) do not produce Lithium Orotate although they have hundreds of products each.

I believe this is because they do not want to get into trouble (just my opinion) - it is dangerous when not taken well informed. Imagine someone taking 10 pills of Lithium everday - and goes to hospital, with toxicity, kidney failure etc.

When not used intelligently, it is a dangerous supplement.

Here comes my point: As I said, I would have preferred larger brands on this supplement - because they should have more complex facilities, audits to prevent wrong dosages in a pill.

In example, if I assume I am taking 5mg Lithium Orotate, but the factory actually puts wrong mg (15mg), the results would be disastrous. This would happen - and I see that dangerous. As I will use it lifetime.

So - what do you think about this?

And - I am yet to find a well established (like Solgar) brand producing it. Do you know of any - and what can you all advise me about this?

#2 blood

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:00 PM

I use a lithium orotate product made by Doctor's Best.

I see Doctor's Best as a reputable brand.
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#3 niner

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 01:09 AM

Doctor's Best is a major brand. The lithium orotate product they sell is only 5mg lithium per tablet, so you'd need to take a lot to overdose. Even 5mg is more than you need for general supplementation. I split the 5mg tablets four ways, so I'm taking 1.25mg per day, not accounting for loss due to spillage and whatnot.

Edited by niner, 02 November 2013 - 01:12 AM.


#4 ssplash

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:49 PM

Hi :) Based on your experience would you say that Lithium Orotate causes less disruptions and side effects such as cognitive impairment, weight gain, confussion, etc. Is there an average dosage for Bipolar II? I am going to ask my doc, but I guess he'll say that LO is not the right choice. Just getting an overall view. Thank you!

Edited by ssplash, 04 November 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#5 cuprous

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:14 AM

I'm only posting as I took my first dose of Dr.s Best Lithium orotate today and then stumbled on this thread now. I'm 35 / male, in pretty good health mentally and physically though I have dealt with anxiety issues in the past. I found 5mg to have a positive effect that combined some nootropic effects in that I focused very readily as well as a pretty solid anxiolytic effect that is different in nature than anything I've tried before. I simply felt neutral -- not like anxiety was being supplanted by something else (beta blockers) or cottoned over (benzos, alcohol, other psychoactives). It was a manageable experience all in all but I can foresee myself dropping to 2.5mg or lower and possibly cycling as well. I do intend to take it again.

So - all in all - pretty positive. If you are bipolar though you should discard my experience for the most part and research until you're an expert.. then of course talk to your doctor.
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#6 niner

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:10 AM

Hi :) Based on your experience would you say that Lithium Orotate causes less disruptions and side effects such as cognitive impairment, weight gain, confussion, etc. Is there an average dosage for Bipolar II? I am going to ask my doc, but I guess he'll say that LO is not the right choice. Just getting an overall view. Thank you!


I don't think LO is appropriate for bipolar. The lithium dosage used for bipolar is quite high, and in order to get that much lithium ion, the amount of orotate ion you would need to consume with it would be astronomical, since orotate is quite heavy and lithium is very light. That amount of orotate would be unhealthy.
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#7 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:31 AM

Lithium is the best supplement IMHO for anxiety. Yesterday I took some and felt the best ever.

#8 ssplash

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:35 AM

Hi :) Based on your experience would you say that Lithium Orotate causes less disruptions and side effects such as cognitive impairment, weight gain, confussion, etc. Is there an average dosage for Bipolar II? I am going to ask my doc, but I guess he'll say that LO is not the right choice. Just getting an overall view. Thank you!


I don't think LO is appropriate for bipolar. The lithium dosage used for bipolar is quite high, and in order to get that much lithium ion, the amount of orotate ion you would need to consume with it would be astronomical, since orotate is quite heavy and lithium is very light. That amount of orotate would be unhealthy.


I understand, Niner. Thanks!

#9 Jackhill41

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 03:03 PM

Lithium is the best supplement IMHO for anxiety. Yesterday I took some and felt the best ever.



I agree completely. It's a shame it has side effects (e.g., terrible skin) for a lot of people.

#10 normalizing

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

so its acceptable safe to just take 5 mg per pill ? then what the fuck are those guys thinking having 120mg per pill on this site; http://www.vitaminsh...06#.UnqYYSdGorg

#11 cuprous

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:50 PM

so its acceptable safe to just take 5 mg per pill ? then what the fuck are those guys thinking having 120mg per pill on this site; http://www.vitaminsh...06#.UnqYYSdGorg


125 mg lilthium orotate is 5mg lithium. It's a small lithium atom dangling off a larger molecule.

#12 normalizing

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:54 PM

went to dr's best website after reading how you guys review the company high and found this url; http://www.drbvitami...pc-and-ps-10vc/

that is laughable. 5 servings of generally not expensive ingredients 100$ ?? lol lost all credibility

so its acceptable safe to just take 5 mg per pill ? then what the fuck are those guys thinking having 120mg per pill on this site; http://www.vitaminsh...06#.UnqYYSdGorg


125 mg lilthium orotate is 5mg lithium. It's a small lithium atom dangling off a larger molecule.



i figured it out after i asked. do you think the supplement in the url i posted is reliable, worth the buy ?

#13 cuprous

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

Lithium is the best supplement IMHO for anxiety. Yesterday I took some and felt the best ever.



I agree completely. It's a shame it has side effects (e.g., terrible skin) for a lot of people.


According to this metastudy at the Lancet those claims are unfounded.


We recorded no significant increased risk of congenital malformations, alopecia, or skin disorders.


Also keep in mind that most of these studies are looking at people taking prescription strength lithium whereas those of doing OTC lithium orotate are probably getting ~1% the dose if I'm understanding things right.

Additionally there is also the position that we are simply trying to supplement a deficiency vis a vis the population studies that have shown reduced incidence of suicide etc in areas with higher lithium content in drinking water.

All together - the dosage is the medicine.
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#14 niner

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:10 PM

went to dr's best website after reading how you guys review the company high and found this url; http://www.drbvitami...pc-and-ps-10vc/

that is laughable. 5 servings of generally not expensive ingredients 100$ ?? lol lost all credibility


The MSRP is a fake price that lets vendors claim they're selling it for "80% off". You can find it on the net for under 20 bucks.

#15 Jackhill41

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:36 AM

Lithium is the best supplement IMHO for anxiety. Yesterday I took some and felt the best ever.



I agree completely. It's a shame it has side effects (e.g., terrible skin) for a lot of people.


According to this metastudy at the Lancet those claims are unfounded.


We recorded no significant increased risk of congenital malformations, alopecia, or skin disorders.


Also keep in mind that most of these studies are looking at people taking prescription strength lithium whereas those of doing OTC lithium orotate are probably getting ~1% the dose if I'm understanding things right.

Additionally there is also the position that we are simply trying to supplement a deficiency vis a vis the population studies that have shown reduced incidence of suicide etc in areas with higher lithium content in drinking water.

All together - the dosage is the medicine.




That's interesting. It runs counter to a few studies I've seen on pubmed, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3157663 (there are several other articles on lithium and skin in the sidebar there) as well as anecdotal reports I've seen on the internet. I have taken lithium for roughly a week on three occasions, twice with carbonate and once with orotate. I broke out horribly each time, and I normally don't have skin problems. The acne it caused in me is very distinctive too- sorry to be gross and give TMI, but the zits that form are about the size of a dime, they look like they are forming deep under the skin, they are incredibly sore and painful, and they take forever to subside.

I plan to start taking microdoses of orotate (approx 400 mcgs) pretty soon. Doses like that have been shown to have benefits, but maybe that dosage will minimize skin problems.

#16 normalizing

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:31 AM

went to dr's best website after reading how you guys review the company high and found this url; http://www.drbvitami...pc-and-ps-10vc/

that is laughable. 5 servings of generally not expensive ingredients 100$ ?? lol lost all credibility


The MSRP is a fake price that lets vendors claim they're selling it for "80% off". You can find it on the net for under 20 bucks.



thats strange. usually companies will sell their products for much cheaper price than retail. like LEF does by claiming price is much lower on their website and retail much higher and i did check this to be true. so oposite is with dr's best...

#17 blood

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:15 AM

went to dr's best website after reading how you guys review the company high and found this url; http://www.drbvitami...pc-and-ps-10vc/

that is laughable. 5 servings of generally not expensive ingredients 100$ ?? lol lost all credibility


The MSRP is a fake price that lets vendors claim they're selling it for "80% off". You can find it on the net for under 20 bucks.



thats strange. usually companies will sell their products for much cheaper price than retail. like LEF does by claiming price is much lower on their website and retail much higher and i did check this to be true. so oposite is with dr's best...


I think it's actually just a pricing error on the web site. The recommended retail price showing for that product is much lower on herb. Doctors Best pricing is quite reasonable for the most part.

#18 normalizing

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:46 PM

and what is the lithium form found naturally in water ?
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#19 rejwan

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:37 AM

Hi :) Based on your experience would you say that Lithium Orotate causes less disruptions and side effects such as cognitive impairment, weight gain, confussion, etc. Is there an average dosage for Bipolar II? I am going to ask my doc, but I guess he'll say that LO is not the right choice. Just getting an overall view. Thank you!


I don't think LO is appropriate for bipolar. The lithium dosage used for bipolar is quite high, and in order to get that much lithium ion, the amount of orotate ion you would need to consume with it would be astronomical, since orotate is quite heavy and lithium is very light. That amount of orotate would be unhealthy.



You are wrong about this.

In a point, yes, 100mg Lithium Carbonate contains 19-20 mg of Lithium, and 125mg Lithium Orotate Contains 4.8 mg of Lithium.

However, Orotate (Orotic Acid) makes the Lithium 20 times more effective (Absorbtion, and much more can enter the cells directly).

Orotate is used also for other mineal productions to make them more effective and stronger.

#20 rejwan

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

Also keep in mind that most of these studies are looking at people taking prescription strength lithium whereas those of doing OTC lithium orotate are probably getting ~1% the dose if I'm understanding things right.




See my post above: No - Lithium Orotate is very strong compared to Lithium Orotate and can be consumed in lower amounts.

In addition - In prescription med Lithium Carbonate they print the total Lithium Carbonate mg (not only Lithium mg) but in most Lithium Orotate products they print only Lithium mg. That shows it as if your are takin very very very low amount of Lithium mg. But this is not the case - and in addition, as I write above, Lithium Orotate's Lithium is up to 20 much stronger. So can be tried for Bipolar.

#21 niner

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:08 PM

Hi :) Based on your experience would you say that Lithium Orotate causes less disruptions and side effects such as cognitive impairment, weight gain, confussion, etc. Is there an average dosage for Bipolar II? I am going to ask my doc, but I guess he'll say that LO is not the right choice. Just getting an overall view. Thank you!


I don't think LO is appropriate for bipolar. The lithium dosage used for bipolar is quite high, and in order to get that much lithium ion, the amount of orotate ion you would need to consume with it would be astronomical, since orotate is quite heavy and lithium is very light. That amount of orotate would be unhealthy.


You are wrong about this.

In a point, yes, 100mg Lithium Carbonate contains 19-20 mg of Lithium, and 125mg Lithium Orotate Contains 4.8 mg of Lithium.

However, Orotate (Orotic Acid) makes the Lithium 20 times more effective (Absorbtion, and much more can enter the cells directly).

Orotate is used also for other mineal productions to make them more effective and stronger.


I don't think so. Lithium carbonate dosage is typically 900-1200mg/day. The amount of elemental lithium in 1200mg Li2CO3 equates to 5,277mg of lithium orotate. Where do you get the information that orotate is 20 times more effective? I don't think that is at all correct, at least not in the case of lithium, and probably not in the case of any metal.
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#22 cuprous

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 02:09 AM


Also keep in mind that most of these studies are looking at people taking prescription strength lithium whereas those of doing OTC lithium orotate are probably getting ~1% the dose if I'm understanding things right.




See my post above: No - Lithium Orotate is very strong compared to Lithium Orotate and can be consumed in lower amounts.

In addition - In prescription med Lithium Carbonate they print the total Lithium Carbonate mg (not only Lithium mg) but in most Lithium Orotate products they print only Lithium mg. That shows it as if your are takin very very very low amount of Lithium mg. But this is not the case - and in addition, as I write above, Lithium Orotate's Lithium is up to 20 much stronger. So can be tried for Bipolar.


I think you meant to write that lithium orotate is strong compared to lithium carbonate. But - as niner pointed out - I would like to see some references for your claims.

This is a pretty vital issue to clarify.

#23 rejwan

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:39 AM

I don't think so. Lithium carbonate dosage is typically 900-1200mg/day. The amount of elemental lithium in 1200mg Li2CO3 equates to 5,277mg of lithium orotate. Where do you get the information that orotate is 20 times more effective? I don't think that is at all correct, at least not in the case of lithium, and probably not in the case of any metal.



I am taking 150mg of Lithium Carbonate - so testing Orotate is not dangerous for me. You are correct - most people are taking 900-1200 mg of Lithium Carbonate, I know this as I started with this level too.

I am replying not to disinform here.

A controversial Dr. Nieper's claim is what I say (20 times more effective).

However, if you feel you can control yourself, like I feel for myself, try and see if Lithium Orotate works. And most of the peoples experiences (most of them not bipolar but there are few bipolar too) are positive.

That depends on person to person. Lithium Carbonate, in very low amounts works for me well. And I feel I can control myself if anything goes wrong with orotate - so I can try (my self control still continue, mine is a mild hypomania). But those are having hard time with Bipolar that can hurt them physically, healthily of financially. Not try it. Myself - time test showed me I can try it. Will see if it works for me - and if it works - try to find the lowest dosage. Isn't it worth for the kidneys?

One research I found (rats - but gives some idea on blood level):

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/26768

3 times more - It gets into brain more.

3 times more - and if added Lithium Orotate has lesser lithium and having 3 times more Lithium in blood and also more in brain - doesn't this mean that approx. 15 times or so effective?

You can look others.

We may not know side effects - yes, not researched.

But, for myself I will use this. Science is important. We know Lithium works, with their help. But Lithium has lots and lots of types (Orotate, Aspartate, Carbonate, tens even hundreds of more). Because they concentrated on Lithium Carbonate for some reason does not mean we can not try other non-researched.

If it works for you - then it works, because what we are talking about is what can be felt and observed internally or from outside.

Only unknown is side effects - Litium Carbonate in low amount is effective for me - so I would even be using lower amounts of Orotate if it works. So - side effects not crucial for me. (This is my assumption)

BUT - If you have extreme Bipolar and not very very mild like me and you feel you will be in somewhat danger or problem, do not try it. Mania is dangerous, as well as Depression. If you can controllably understand with relatives help, or yourself, may be you can give it a go.

Edited by rejwan, 11 November 2013 - 08:42 AM.


#24 normalizing

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

and what is the lithium form found naturally in water ?


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#25 niner

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:37 PM

That factor of three improvement in serum lithium looked good until I saw this:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.
Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.
Smith DF, Schou M.

A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients.

PMID: 34690



#26 cuprous

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 01:17 PM

That factor of three improvement in serum lithium looked good until I saw this:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.
Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.
Smith DF, Schou M.

A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients.

PMID: 34690


Looks like there are objections to that study. See here.

Specifically:

During the study, the same amounts of lithium orotate and lithium carbonate were used. But people DON'T USE the same enormous amounts required for lithium carbonate when using lithium orotate.



#27 Heh

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 01:45 PM

Lithium Orotate seems to be a superior form to Lithium Carbonate, especially at the dosages required. Niner is incorrect about 6g of Lithium being needed, and the other poster is closer in saying it's about 5% of that. Lithium Carbonate brings with it quite serious side effects of which none are really present with Lithium Orotate (at the dosages being mentioned here). The worst side effect if you have to take more Lithium Orotate is terrible skin. That said, if you have to take more than 2 or 3 LiO tablets each day, then you may have to combine with Lithium Carbonate, which is less than ideal.

Edited by Joel, 11 November 2013 - 02:02 PM.

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#28 rejwan

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:19 PM

That factor of three improvement in serum lithium looked good until I saw this:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.
Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.
Smith DF, Schou M.

A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients.

PMID: 34690



This study is well known and it is decade later understood that the Lithium Orotate given was nearly 700% more than the maximum.

I even saw a Dr. trying to garbage LO, talking about this study, and he had to mention, "Yes, I accept that the Lithium Orotate given in this research was too much but, bla bla" .

So the results of this research is too much exagarated. You give 7 times more than maximum LO to rats. Then what can happen?

This is one of the 3 researches made on LO. Only 3 researches until recently. As mentioned - was not researched a lot until recent times.

First hand experiences count more.

But side effects? Not sure about that. We may not know. So accept the risks. Or if you feel there can be none, then, may be.
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#29 niner

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:48 PM

That factor of three improvement in serum lithium looked good until I saw this:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.
Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.
Smith DF, Schou M.

A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients.

PMID: 34690


Looks like there are objections to that study. See here.

Specifically:

During the study, the same amounts of lithium orotate and lithium carbonate were used. But people DON'T USE the same enormous amounts required for lithium carbonate when using lithium orotate.


Those objections are by "some guy on the internet" at "mysite.verizon.net"... They are a lot like the "objections" that are being posted here- they are the opinion of someone who is neither a scientist nor a clinician.

Lithium Orotate seems to be a superior form to Lithium Carbonate, especially at the dosages required. Niner is incorrect about 6g of Lithium being needed, and the other poster is closer in saying it's about 5% of that. Lithium Carbonate brings with it quite serious side effects of which none are really present with Lithium Orotate (at the dosages being mentioned here). The worst side effect if you have to take more Lithium Orotate is terrible skin. That said, if you have to take more than 2 or 3 LiO tablets each day, then you may have to combine with Lithium Carbonate, which is less than ideal.


Unless you have a paper that I'm not aware of, there is NO EVIDENCE that LO is any better than carbonate in raising and maintaining lithium levels. The only evidence that's been presented can be explained by kidney dysfunction caused by orotate toxicity. It sounds like you and rejwan are presenting the hypothesis (guess) that there's a "sweet spot" in orotate dosage in which there is no toxicity, yet there is an improvement in Li pharmacokinetics. I'll believe that if you can present any solid evidence for it, but for now I have to consider it wishful thinking. BTW, I said the amount of elemental lithium in 1200 mg Li2CO3 would require 5.3 grams of LO. That's not incorrect. You're apparently claiming that with orotate, you don't need to reach the same plasma level of lithium in order to have an equivalent therapeutic effect, for which there is no evidence.
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#30 Heh

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:34 PM

That factor of three improvement in serum lithium looked good until I saw this:

J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Mar;31(3):161-3.
Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate.
Smith DF, Schou M.

A recent study by Kling et al (1978) noted the finding of higher lithium concentrations in serum and brain of rats after an intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of lithium orotate as a slurry than of lithium carbonate in solution. The authors suggested that lithium orotate might offer advantages in the treatment of patients. We repeated the experiments of Kling et al but in addition examined the kidney function of the rats. Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection. The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function. It seems inadvisable to use lithium orotate for the treatment of patients.

PMID: 34690


Looks like there are objections to that study. See here.

Specifically:

During the study, the same amounts of lithium orotate and lithium carbonate were used. But people DON'T USE the same enormous amounts required for lithium carbonate when using lithium orotate.


Those objections are by "some guy on the internet" at "mysite.verizon.net"... They are a lot like the "objections" that are being posted here- they are the opinion of someone who is neither a scientist nor a clinician.

Lithium Orotate seems to be a superior form to Lithium Carbonate, especially at the dosages required. Niner is incorrect about 6g of Lithium being needed, and the other poster is closer in saying it's about 5% of that. Lithium Carbonate brings with it quite serious side effects of which none are really present with Lithium Orotate (at the dosages being mentioned here). The worst side effect if you have to take more Lithium Orotate is terrible skin. That said, if you have to take more than 2 or 3 LiO tablets each day, then you may have to combine with Lithium Carbonate, which is less than ideal.


Unless you have a paper that I'm not aware of, there is NO EVIDENCE that LO is any better than carbonate in raising and maintaining lithium levels. The only evidence that's been presented can be explained by kidney dysfunction caused by orotate toxicity. It sounds like you and rejwan are presenting the hypothesis (guess) that there's a "sweet spot" in orotate dosage in which there is no toxicity, yet there is an improvement in Li pharmacokinetics. I'll believe that if you can present any solid evidence for it, but for now I have to consider it wishful thinking. BTW, I said the amount of elemental lithium in 1200 mg Li2CO3 would require 5.3 grams of LO. That's not incorrect. You're apparently claiming that with orotate, you don't need to reach the same plasma level of lithium in order to have an equivalent therapeutic effect, for which there is no evidence.

What's the difference between Magnesium Oxide and Magnesium L-Threonate as far as uptake? What's so hard to understand about this claim? The problem is that there aren't sufficient studies around this topic (probably because big pharma doesn't fund studies for products that won't make them money, but either way), but that takes nothing away from what's been observed. I'm all for scientific research and for the inclusion of clinical studies, but to do so while completely ignoring anecdotal evidence seems unwise and leaves you behind the curve when it comes to things of a progressive nature (well, maybe you are conservative). Either way, there shouldn't be a problem, because there aren't any real problems with taking 1 or 2 Lithium Orotate pills, and definitely there wouldn't be kidney damage. That quoted study has been thrown out multiple times for using too much Lithium Orotate.

Sometimes you folks can be so blind: clinical studies, clinical studies, clinical studies. As though clinical studies are the holy grail of anything.

BTW, there are three "unorthodox" things I've heard that help with Bipolar disorder: vitamins/minerals/diet/exercise, lithium, and resveratrol.

Edited by Joel, 11 November 2013 - 09:39 PM.

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