100 replies to this topic

[niner]

Unless you have a paper that I'm not aware of, there is NO EVIDENCE that LO is any better than carbonate in raising and maintaining lithium levels. The only evidence that's been presented can be explained by kidney dysfunction caused by orotate toxicity. It sounds like you and rejwan are presenting the hypothesis (guess) that there's a "sweet spot" in orotate dosage in which there is no toxicity, yet there is an improvement in Li pharmacokinetics. I'll believe that if you can present any solid evidence for it, but for now I have to consider it wishful thinking. BTW, I said the amount of elemental lithium in 1200 mg Li2CO3 would require 5.3 grams of LO. That's not incorrect. You're apparently claiming that with orotate, you don't need to reach the same plasma level of lithium in order to have an equivalent therapeutic effect, for which there is no evidence.

What's the difference between Magnesium Oxide and Magnesium L-Threonate as far as uptake? What's so hard to understand about this claim? The problem is that there aren't sufficient studies around this topic (probably because big pharma doesn't fund studies for products that won't make them money, but either way), but that takes nothing away from what's been observed. I'm all for scientific research and for the inclusion of clinical studies, but to do so while completely ignoring anecdotal evidence seems unwise and leaves you behind the curve when it comes to things of a progressive nature (well, maybe you are conservative). Either way, there shouldn't be a problem, because there aren't any real problems with taking 1 or 2 Lithium Orotate pills, and definitely there wouldn't be kidney damage. That quoted study has been thrown out multiple times for using too much Lithium Orotate.

The difference between different forms of magnesium? Not all that much, as it turns out, although threonate may be a special case for brain mag. I don't even see any anecdotal evidence that low dose LO can serve as therapy for bipolar in people who otherwise would need a normal dose of lithium carbonate. Maybe if someone is just a little bipolar, low dose LO will make them feel better, but that's not what you guys are arguing. I'm just interested in getting to the truth. If you have multiple people who have thrown out their lithium carbonate in favor of low dose LO, then I'm all ears. Otherwise, your arguments don't really stand up to logic and available evidence.

Sometimes you folks can be so blind: clinical studies, clinical studies, clinical studies. As though clinical studies are the holy grail of anything.

Are you really going to argue that we'd be better off with a combination of magical thinking and stuff that we find on some guy's MySpace page? If you want to self-experiment and report your experiences, that's cool, but when a thread like this has the potential to mislead half the planet, I'll throw in my two cents.

[Heh]

Unless you have a paper that I'm not aware of, there is NO EVIDENCE that LO is any better than carbonate in raising and maintaining lithium levels. The only evidence that's been presented can be explained by kidney dysfunction caused by orotate toxicity. It sounds like you and rejwan are presenting the hypothesis (guess) that there's a "sweet spot" in orotate dosage in which there is no toxicity, yet there is an improvement in Li pharmacokinetics. I'll believe that if you can present any solid evidence for it, but for now I have to consider it wishful thinking. BTW, I said the amount of elemental lithium in 1200 mg Li2CO3 would require 5.3 grams of LO. That's not incorrect. You're apparently claiming that with orotate, you don't need to reach the same plasma level of lithium in order to have an equivalent therapeutic effect, for which there is no evidence.

What's the difference between Magnesium Oxide and Magnesium L-Threonate as far as uptake? What's so hard to understand about this claim? The problem is that there aren't sufficient studies around this topic (probably because big pharma doesn't fund studies for products that won't make them money, but either way), but that takes nothing away from what's been observed. I'm all for scientific research and for the inclusion of clinical studies, but to do so while completely ignoring anecdotal evidence seems unwise and leaves you behind the curve when it comes to things of a progressive nature (well, maybe you are conservative). Either way, there shouldn't be a problem, because there aren't any real problems with taking 1 or 2 Lithium Orotate pills, and definitely there wouldn't be kidney damage. That quoted study has been thrown out multiple times for using too much Lithium Orotate.

The difference between different forms of magnesium? Not all that much, as it turns out, although threonate may be a special case for brain mag. I don't even see any anecdotal evidence that low dose LO can serve as therapy for bipolar in people who otherwise would need a normal dose of lithium carbonate. Maybe if someone is just a little bipolar, low dose LO will make them feel better, but that's not what you guys are arguing. I'm just interested in getting to the truth. If you have multiple people who have thrown out their lithium carbonate in favor of low dose LO, then I'm all ears. Otherwise, your arguments don't really stand up to logic and available evidence.

Sometimes you folks can be so blind: clinical studies, clinical studies, clinical studies. As though clinical studies are the holy grail of anything.

Are you really going to argue that we'd be better off with a combination of magical thinking and stuff that we find on some guy's MySpace page? If you want to self-experiment and report your experiences, that's cool, but when a thread like this has the potential to mislead half the planet, I'll throw in my two cents.

Alright Mr. Big shot, my point was that it was possible for different forms of the same substance to have difference absorption and usability properties, which is the case in the brain with the forms of magnesium presented. While some people don't report success with Lithium Orotate, I stepped into this thread exactly because many do. So I'm not sure what bipolar forum sites you are reading. And at a dosage less than 2 or 3 pills it doesn't hurt to test Lithium Orotate, as there are very little in the way of side effects. So again, when you start talking about kidney damage something had to be said. BTW, it seems those that found success replaced 900 to 1200mg of Lithium Carbonate with 2-4 Lithium Orotate pills, which is what added some element of truth to the 7% notion. Not everyone was successful doing this, but there was enough that Lithium Orotate should not just be passed up like it's nothing, or worse yet like it's some dangerous trash.

And again, also worth trying is resveratrol and proper diet/exercise/vitamins/minerals.

I'm arguing that you have to learn how to properly listen to user experience and to fuse it with clinical studies, and how to give priority to one or the other, as there is benefit in listening to user experience and there won't be a clinical study for everything.

Edited by Joel, 12 November 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[rejwan]

I suggest to those who will use Lithium Orotate, make regular tests for their kidneys as it is done in Lithium Carbonate. In addition those who do not use it consciously will have it withdrawn from the market. You have to take very much lower Lithium Orotate than Lithium Carbonate - be careful. Very lower. If it works - then fine. Otherwise do not push the limit. Natural things are fine with me.

I am not against science at all, it is the very same science that allowed us to know even about herbs.

However - I wouldn't be a sheep as people were until 90's that digested everthing media presented them or speaking about only clinical studies leveraged on behalf of funders.

Yes - science is what allows where we are - most of the things we do, curing many illnesses, faciliting everyhing etc

But, my suggestion is, use your own common sense. If meds do not seem to work very well, try other supplements.

Use "very" carefully. Uncareful people might give a bad name and harm their health too. If you feel it works - then fine. Otherwise - again, not push the limits.



Do NOT be a sheep listening everything against supplements.

Or fully against meds.

You will feel very "intelligent" and educated when researching "academically". But let me give you an example. A multi-billion drug for mental illnesses including Bipolar is Zyprexa.

Every clinical trial went well. Only "a bit risk for diabetes".

But it appeared in that a lawyer exposed an internal communication inside Zyprexa that, after marketed (after many clinical trials, Phase I, II , II), Doctor feedbacks sent to Zyprexa appeared shown deaths from diabetes, and Zyprexa internal communication inside was that this should be swept under and hidden from the public.

Well - yes, if meds worked for me, I would really have taken them. If it increased the quality of life a lot - I would have taken diabetes risk.

But, - not the case of side effects, the opposite effects happened to me, what the meds supposed to cure had made on me appear. This is really should be 1 in a million or so. So I do not take a lot. But my case is very rare.

This is not my case but to sample another thing similar to mine (mine was not only some sort of mania that antipsychotics produced - but only example): there are 1 in a million people that antipsychotics make mania. Believe it or not. There are cases documented. But it is very rare. It is so rare that people should not doubt.

People should take the meds - I also take them when I have to.

I would not have replied more - replying becase another poster implied that this thread have possibility of effecting half the planet - I do not care if whole planet is aware of this thread, and how. Just giving my opinions with some advice of using it carefully.

[normalizing]

and what is the lithium form found naturally in water ?

[cuprous]

Those objections are by "some guy on the internet" at "mysite.verizon.net"... They are a lot like the "objections" that are being posted here- they are the opinion of someone who is neither a scientist nor a clinician.

Fine, see here- written by an MD. Specifically:

Superiority of Lithium Orotate

The lithium salt of orotic acid (lithium orotate) improves the specific effects of lithium many-fold by increasing lithium bio-utilization. The orotates transport the lithium to the membranes of mitochondria, lysosomes and the glia cells. Lithium orotate stabilizes the lysosomal membranes and prevents the enzyme reactions that are responsible for the sodium depletion and dehydration effects of other lithium salts.
Because of the superior bioavailability of lithium orotate, the therapeutic dosage is much less than prescription forms of lithium. For example, in cases of severe depression, the therapeutic dosage of lithium orotate is 150 mg/day. This is compared to 900-1800 mg of the prescription forms. In this dosage range of lithium orotate, there are no adverse lithium side reactions and no need for monitoring blood serum measurements. (17)

[blood]

Those objections are by "some guy on the internet" at "mysite.verizon.net"... They are a lot like the "objections" that are being posted here- they are the opinion of someone who is neither a scientist nor a clinician.

Fine, see here- written by an MD. Specifically:

Superiority of Lithium Orotate

The lithium salt of orotic acid (lithium orotate) improves the specific effects of lithium many-fold by increasing lithium bio-utilization. The orotates transport the lithium to the membranes of mitochondria, lysosomes and the glia cells. Lithium orotate stabilizes the lysosomal membranes and prevents the enzyme reactions that are responsible for the sodium depletion and dehydration effects of other lithium salts.
Because of the superior bioavailability of lithium orotate, the therapeutic dosage is much less than prescription forms of lithium. For example, in cases of severe depression, the therapeutic dosage of lithium orotate is 150 mg/day. This is compared to 900-1800 mg of the prescription forms. In this dosage range of lithium orotate, there are no adverse lithium side reactions and no need for monitoring blood serum measurements. (17)

The writer appears to be trying to support the claims made in that paragraph by referencing Hans Neiper's 1973 article in Agressologie:

17. Nieper HA The clinical application of lithium orotate. Agressologie 14(6). 407-411, 1973

Lots of people writing about lithium orotate reference this article. I am curious to take a look at it, but so far haven't been able to retrieve it.

Edited by blood, 12 November 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[rejwan]

Yes, if you want, take a look. Do not fall into stereotypes. Use Lithium Orotate if you want, test it. Do not fall into mistake to take what people decide to make clinical studies on. Lots of options out there if you act responsibly.

[niner]

Alright Mr. Big shot,

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this is about egos or something like that. It's not. It's about having the evidence to back up the claims made in this forum.

my point was that it was possible for different forms of the same substance to have difference absorption and usability properties, which is the case in the brain with the forms of magnesium presented. While some people don't report success with Lithium Orotate, I stepped into this thread exactly because many do. So I'm not sure what bipolar forum sites you are reading. And at a dosage less than 2 or 3 pills it doesn't hurt to test Lithium Orotate, as there are very little in the way of side effects. So again, when you start talking about kidney damage something had to be said. BTW, it seems those that found success replaced 900 to 1200mg of Lithium Carbonate with 2-4 Lithium Orotate pills, which is what added some element of truth to the 7% notion. Not everyone was successful doing this, but there was enough that Lithium Orotate should not just be passed up like it's nothing, or worse yet like it's some dangerous trash.

Your point keeps changing. Initially it was proposed that LO was a replacement for lithium carbonate in people who needed the usual dose of that drug. It was claimed that LO was "20 times" more potent than carbonate. Eventually a paper was referenced that said it was a factor of three better. That turned out to be confounded by kidney toxicity. Now you seem to be saying that 10 or 20mg of elemental lithium in the orotate form can replace 900-1200mg Li2CO3 in SOME people. I would suggest that the people for whom this was successful didn't really need high dose lithium in the first place, and that those people for whom it didn't work were the ones who actually needed the high dose protocol. Maybe there's a population of bipolar people who need something, but don't really need high dose Li2CO3, and maybe a low dose of LO can be that something. I can at least believe that that could be true, although you haven't actually presented any cases. People reading this should just be aware that they should only take a small amount of LO; toxicity has been reported from as little as 83mg elemental Li in the orotate form.

When rats were given lithium in the orotate, carbonate, or chloride forms, neither the serum nor the brain concentrations of lithium differed. These observations are not consistent with your claim that orotate is amazingly good at delivering lithium.

[Heh]

Alright Mr. Big shot,

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that this is about egos or something like that. It's not. It's about having the evidence to back up the claims made in this forum.

my point was that it was possible for different forms of the same substance to have difference absorption and usability properties, which is the case in the brain with the forms of magnesium presented. While some people don't report success with Lithium Orotate, I stepped into this thread exactly because many do. So I'm not sure what bipolar forum sites you are reading. And at a dosage less than 2 or 3 pills it doesn't hurt to test Lithium Orotate, as there are very little in the way of side effects. So again, when you start talking about kidney damage something had to be said. BTW, it seems those that found success replaced 900 to 1200mg of Lithium Carbonate with 2-4 Lithium Orotate pills, which is what added some element of truth to the 7% notion. Not everyone was successful doing this, but there was enough that Lithium Orotate should not just be passed up like it's nothing, or worse yet like it's some dangerous trash.

Your point keeps changing. Initially it was proposed that LO was a replacement for lithium carbonate in people who needed the usual dose of that drug. It was claimed that LO was "20 times" more potent than carbonate. Eventually a paper was referenced that said it was a factor of three better. That turned out to be confounded by kidney toxicity. Now you seem to be saying that 10 or 20mg of elemental lithium in the orotate form can replace 900-1200mg Li2CO3 in SOME people. I would suggest that the people for whom this was successful didn't really need high dose lithium in the first place, and that those people for whom it didn't work were the ones who actually needed the high dose protocol. Maybe there's a population of bipolar people who need something, but don't really need high dose Li2CO3, and maybe a low dose of LO can be that something. I can at least believe that that could be true, although you haven't actually presented any cases. People reading this should just be aware that they should only take a small amount of LO; toxicity has been reported from as little as 83mg elemental Li in the orotate form.

When rats were given lithium in the orotate, carbonate, or chloride forms, neither the serum nor the brain concentrations of lithium differed. These observations are not consistent with your claim that orotate is amazingly good at delivering lithium.

I don't have clinical studies, I have user reviews from shopping sites, and (more importantly) feedback from other forums where people claim that making the switch to the orotate version did wonders for them.

My point didn't keep changing, I made more than one, and I readdressed the ones you supposedly confounded. I approach the point of lithium working for some from the point of view that no supplement will work for everyone, not from the point of view that it will only work for like 50% of those that try it. The success rate with Lithium Orotate is quite high. Yes, the point was made that it's about 20x as potent, meaning they only need 1 or 2 (maybe 3) orotate pills to match the effectiveness of Lithium Carbonate at 900-1200mg. And? That's the foundational argument against your point that users would actually need around 50 orotate pills (near 6g and probably toxic) to match the original carbonate dosage.

Anyway, someone keeps downvoting me, so I'm done with this.

Edited by Joel, 13 November 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[cuprous]

People reading this should just be aware that they should only take a small amount of LO; toxicity has been reported from as little as 83mg elemental Li in the orotate form.

When rats were given lithium in the orotate, carbonate, or chloride forms, neither the serum nor the brain concentrations of lithium differed. These observations are not consistent with your claim that orotate is amazingly good at delivering lithium.

Come on, man. That so-called "toxicity" report from "as little as 83mg elemental Li."

We are reporting a case of mild, acute lithium toxicity occurring after the intentional misuse ..... The patient complained of nausea and reported one episode of emesis ... after ingesting 18 tablets of Find Serenity Now... Her examination revealed normal vital signs. The only finding was a mild tremor without rigidity. ... The patient received intravenous fluids and an anti-emetic; one hour later, her repeat serum lithium level was 0.40 mEq/L. After 3 hours of observation, nausea and tremor were resolved, and she was subsequently transferred to a psychiatric hospital for further care

Mentally disturbed woman potentially tries to kill herself with LO. Vital signs never changed, she felt ill, threw up once, and all was resolved after some fluids.

This is not an alarming report.

[cuprous]

Woman develops renal dysfunction and choreoathetosis from as little as 1,200mg lithium carbonate a day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14639944

[Guardian4981]

I took 5mg lithium O by doctors best for a couple months to deal with the anxiety of a new position at work a couple years ago.

It helped get rid of my anxiety which has not returned.

The problem is I experienced some side effects that still burden me to this day. The main sides are poor circulation, dizziness upon standing, low motivation, and low pleasure in life.

Blood tests show my urea levels are elevated at around 28, though creatinine is fine along with all other kidney markets.

TSH is also a bit high at 3.50, but when trying Armour Thryoid I only felt worse.

Through my own research I believe lithium influenced my dopamine system in a manner that lowers my quality of life.

Lithium seemed to have traded anxiety for depression in me. Not sure what to do at this point the doctors run tests and say nothing looks wrong outside the urea which they claim is dehydration though I drink plenty of fluids.

I hope lithium has not caused me perm damage, but even after quiting all supplements, my issues did not resolve. So I would not suggest anyone use this stuff unless they really think they have to.

[niner]

Mentally disturbed woman potentially tries to kill herself with LO. Vital signs never changed, she felt ill, threw up once, and all was resolved after some fluids.

It doesn't matter why she took it. She took it and got sick. People shouldn't act like it's as safe as mothers milk, because it isn't. Not for everyone. Looks like it didn't work out so well for Guardian.

[normalizing]

and what is the lithium form found naturally in water ?

[blood]

The claim that lithium orotate is 20 times stronger or more effective than lithium carbonate appears to originate from a two works published by Hans Neiper - a paper (published in a journal called Aggressologie), and also a book:

http://www.globalhea...transporters#34

... Dr. Nieper found that lithium orotate in amounts of 138 mg 4 to 6 times per week was effective in for depression, headaches and migraine, epilepsy, and even alcoholism. [34] The amount of lithium contained was only a small fraction of the amount conventionally given as therapy for manic-depressive illness, thus avoiding the risk of kidney toxicity typically associated with larger amounts of lithium. Elsewhere Dr. Nieper reported that 5 mg of lithium in the form of orotate was roughly as effective as 100 mg of lithium in the form of carbonate, giving a 20-fold enhancement of potency thanks to efficient transport of the lithium by its orotate carrier. [35]

Nieper's results were subsequently confirmed in a group of 42 alcoholic patients who were followed for between 6 months and 10 years. [36] Administration of 138 mg of lithium orotate per day resulted not only in a marked decline in alcoholic relapses, but also in improvements in liver, cardiovascular, thyroid, and immune function. Migraines, cluster headaches, manic behavior, and seizure disorders were also reduced among this group. Eight patients reportedly developed muscle weakness, loss of appetite, and mild apathy, but symptoms disappeared after the serving was reduced to 138 mg 4 to 5 times per week. The improvements in liver function appeared to be due to a synergy between lithium orotate and calcium orotate, both of which were administered to the alcoholic patients with liver disease. For more information on addressing liver disorders with a combination of lithium and calcium orotate, see the section below on Calcium orotate.

...

34. Nieper HA. The clinical applications of lithium orotate. A two years study. Agressologie. 1973;14(6):407-11. Available as article #CM12 from the A. Keith Brewer International Science Library at (608) 647-6513 or on the Web

35. Nieper HA. Revolution in Technology, Medicine and Society. Oldenburg, Germany: MIT Verlag; 1985. Available from the A. Keith Brewer International Science Library at (608) 647-6513 or on the Web.

36. Sartori HE. Lithium orotate in the treatment of alcoholism and related conditions. Alcohol. 1986;3(2):97-100.

Here is Neiper's book:
http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/392518807X


Apart from Neiper's work, the only other paper in the scientific literature reporting a clinical trial of lithium orotate in humans is this one:

Alcohol. 1986 Mar-Apr;3(2):97-100.
Lithium orotate in the treatment of alcoholism and related conditions.

Sartori HE.

Abstract


The subjects were 42 alcoholic patients (33 males and 9 females) who were treated with lithium orotate during an alcohol rehabilitation program in a private clinical setting for at least six months. They derive from a total number of 105 patients who received this treatment initially, while the remainder discontinued the treatment within six months. The data were collected from a private practice record and the follow-up varied between six months and 10 years. The 42 patients studied displayed a multitude of complaints in addition to chronic alcoholism. These included liver dysfunction, seizure disorders, headaches, hyperthyroidism, affective disorders. Meniere's syndrome, liver and lung cancers. Thirty-six of the 42 patients studied had been hospitalized at least once for the management of their alcoholism. Lithium orotate was given, 150 mg daily, with a diet low in simple carbohydrates and containing moderate amounts of protein and fat. In addition, calcium orotate (for hepatic involvement), magnesium orotate, bromelaine, and essential phospholipids (for cardiac problems), and supportive measures were instituted, if required. Lithium orotate proved useful as the main pharmacologic agent for the treatment of alcoholism. Ten of the patients had no relapse for over three and up to 10 years, 13 patients remained without relapse for 1 to 3 years, and the remaining 12 had relapses between 6 to 12 months. Lithium orotate therapy was safe and the adverse side effects noted were minor, i.e., eight patients developed muscle weakness, loss of appetite or mild apathy. For these patients, the symptoms subsided when the daily dose was given 4 to 5 times weekly.

PMID: 3718672 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The research design is problematic, e.g., they don't appear to have used a control/ placebo group, and the treatment protocol consisted of a bunch of other supplements as well as low dose lithium orotate.

Edited by blood, 14 November 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[cuprous]

Mentally disturbed woman potentially tries to kill herself with LO. Vital signs never changed, she felt ill, threw up once, and all was resolved after some fluids.

It doesn't matter why she took it. She took it and got sick. People shouldn't act like it's as safe as mothers milk, because it isn't. Not for everyone. Looks like it didn't work out so well for Guardian.

I don't have a horse in this race but your bias here against LO is remarkable. This so-called "toxicity" amounted to "nausea" after a deliberate overdose. Then you toss in Guardian's anecdotal report which - while I sympathize with him - amounts to "a report on the internet." We all know every single supp discussed on here has somebody claiming it irrevocably changed them. Meanwhile you've handily ignored the journal link I posted in which true toxicity was experienced by a woman taking a therapeutic dose of Lithium carbonate.

I will continue to take 2.5mg LO on a weekly basis as a trace-mineral supplement.

[Guardian4981]

I can assure you my story was not a spam as I have been posting for a while and did not join to simply discuss lithium.

With myself there likely may have been alot of factors in play, I have a history of anxiety and dysthymia, I may have ended up where I am today regardless of the lithium. My instinct is that the lithium may have sped up a path I was already on.

[blood]

Mentally disturbed woman potentially tries to kill herself with LO. Vital signs never changed, she felt ill, threw up once, and all was resolved after some fluids.

It doesn't matter why she took it. She took it and got sick. People shouldn't act like it's as safe as mothers milk, because it isn't. Not for everyone. Looks like it didn't work out so well for Guardian.

I don't have a horse in this race but your bias here against LO is remarkable. This so-called "toxicity" amounted to "nausea" after a deliberate overdose. Then you toss in Guardian's anecdotal report which - while I sympathize with him - amounts to "a report on the internet." We all know every single supp discussed on here has somebody claiming it irrevocably changed them. Meanwhile you've handily ignored the journal link I posted in which true toxicity was experienced by a woman taking a therapeutic dose of Lithium carbonate.

I will continue to take 2.5mg LO on a weekly basis as a trace-mineral supplement.

LO appears to be to be a fairly benign supplement at low doses, but in the in the alcoholism study some patients seemed to do poorly on just 5 mg lithium/ day in the orotate form and needed a dose reduction ("Lithium orotate therapy was safe and the adverse side effects noted were minor, i.e., eight patients developed muscle weakness, loss of appetite or mild apathy. For these patients, the symptoms subsided when the daily dose was given 4 to 5 times weekly.").

I think it is important to be aware that 18 LO tablets can induce a mild lithium poisoning. Most of us on this forum would have mega-dosed with a supplement at some point. 20 tablets is not a lot to take in a day - 10 at breakfast, 10 at lunch, and you are there. I could easily imagine someone who is self-medicating for anxiety or depression escalating their dose to that level and getting a nasty surprise.

I think people are confusing a desire to nail down what is true (and what claims can be supported), with a bias against lithium orotate.

I take about 10-15 mg of lithium (as LO) per week (mainly to prevent the possibility of a deficiency) but to me the claims of 20-fold greater effectiveness do seem somewhat dubious.

(If LO really is 20 times more e.g., bioavailable or effective than lithium carbonate, wouldn't we be hearing far more reports of poisonings & hospitalisations...?)

It would be a worry if people with manic depression are switching to low-dose lithium as LO, and having mania relapses as a result.

Edited by blood, 15 November 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[niner]

Mentally disturbed woman potentially tries to kill herself with LO. Vital signs never changed, she felt ill, threw up once, and all was resolved after some fluids.

It doesn't matter why she took it. She took it and got sick. People shouldn't act like it's as safe as mothers milk, because it isn't. Not for everyone. Looks like it didn't work out so well for Guardian.

I don't have a horse in this race but your bias here against LO is remarkable. This so-called "toxicity" amounted to "nausea" after a deliberate overdose. Then you toss in Guardian's anecdotal report which - while I sympathize with him - amounts to "a report on the internet." We all know every single supp discussed on here has somebody claiming it irrevocably changed them. Meanwhile you've handily ignored the journal link I posted in which true toxicity was experienced by a woman taking a therapeutic dose of Lithium carbonate.

I will continue to take 2.5mg LO on a weekly basis as a trace-mineral supplement.

Hmm. I take three and a half times as much LO as you do. Is that indicative of my "bias"? As blood pointed out, trying to get to the truth is not bias. It's science. I don't want this forum to turn into a place where people are handing out medical advice on the basis of "user reviews from shopping sites" (LOL!). Lithium is well known to have a poor therapeutic index. That means that the ratio between the therapeutic dose and the toxic dose is not very large. The fact that toxicity was observed at 900-1200mg is hardly surprising. Seeing toxicity or side effects from LO at much lower doses should tell you that it's not something you can pop like candy. I felt like the drug was being pimped here, and a little balance was needed.

[rejwan]

(If LO really is 20 times more e.g., bioavailable or effective than lithium carbonate, wouldn't we be hearing far more reports of poisonings & hospitalisations...?)

More bioavailable or more effective of something means, body utilizes it more effectively. It enters the cells more or, another type for more bioavailable example just like meyhlcobalamine for brain is more bioactive than normal B12 cyanocobalamine.

You take lower amounts for the same effect of a more bioavailable of something like LO to be more effective. So you hear no hospitalizations or poisonings - so your post also makes no sense. I do not see lots of scientific researches on this; that LO is more effective but the LC I take is very lower than Dr's advise.

And one poster said this is a serious medium and other peoples experiences are something to LOL.

Well - I am glad I did not make all my researches here on this forum until now - if it was the case I was taking lots of antipsyhotics listening to all so called researcher posters here. I would have been an educated but mad guy. I would prefer to be uneducated and relatively normal.

If there is something to LOL this sites subject is "unlimited lifespan" . I did not look at the main explanation or philosophy behind this - however if this is true, almost all of the world and aprroximately all of the scientists are LOL about this. I do not "LOL" . I leave it as is - I do not belive this as 99% of the people. This is one of the many forums I visit everyday. Everyone can do anything they can do, even hiding behind science. As long as they do not give harm to anyone. I, as many people, come here for other purposes because everything is discussed here. When I search a supplement - again, Google sends me here.

And I am making my warning on Lithium Orotate too. There are many people who would use it carelessly. But I will try to use it carefully. These kinds of things work fine for me.

Everyone gives their opinions. Scientific researches are important as well as its advocates. But if you be careful, and you can find a line in between - then its fine.

Opposing posts here also give an idea for people here making a decision. Every point of view is essential.

I will be visiting here when I look for information on other supplements as I visit other places.

Everyone should make up their mind for every point of view. But also listen to their intincts too.

[normalizing]

I took 5mg lithium O by doctors best for a couple months to deal with the anxiety of a new position at work a couple years ago.

It helped get rid of my anxiety which has not returned.

The problem is I experienced some side effects that still burden me to this day. The main sides are poor circulation, dizziness upon standing, low motivation, and low pleasure in life.

Blood tests show my urea levels are elevated at around 28, though creatinine is fine along with all other kidney markets.

TSH is also a bit high at 3.50, but when trying Armour Thryoid I only felt worse.

Through my own research I believe lithium influenced my dopamine system in a manner that lowers my quality of life.

Lithium seemed to have traded anxiety for depression in me. Not sure what to do at this point the doctors run tests and say nothing looks wrong outside the urea which they claim is dehydration though I drink plenty of fluids.

I hope lithium has not caused me perm damage, but even after quiting all supplements, my issues did not resolve. So I would not suggest anyone use this stuff unless they really think they have to.

so lithium can be used to permanently fix addictive personalities by altering the dopamine reward system ? how come i never heard of it being used on drug addicts. but if the change is perm, is this even a good thing, becoming an apathic numb asshole...

[normalizing]

so, nobody could find any legit information on the exact form of lithium present in water and its actual biocactivity compared to the the forms discussed here ??

[blood]

so, nobody could find any legit information on the exact form of lithium present in water and its actual biocactivity compared to the the forms discussed here ??

I had a quick skim through some of the papers on lithium in drinking water & suicide incidence. The papers I looked at didn't specify the form of lithium salts in the drinking water.

Lithium chloride is apparently the most prevalent lithium salt in sea water.

According to wikipedia, some lithium salts are toxic:

http://en.wikipedia....um_(medication)

Lithium bromide and lithium chloride have been used in the past, however they fell out of use in the 1940s when it was discovered they were toxic. Many other lithium salts and compounds exist, such as lithium fluoride and lithium iodide, but they are presumed to be toxic substances and have never been evaluated for pharmacological effects.

The active principle in the lithium salt is the lithium ion. The research discussed earlier in this thread (comparing the orotate to other forms) raised the possibility their wasn't much difference in bioavailability between various forms of lithium. If you are thinking of using low dose lithium, you really only have a choice of lithium orotate or lithium aspartate. Lithium picolinate would probably have decent bioavailability, but no one is putting it to market (although, it does seem to be available on alibaba).

Edited by blood, 21 November 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[normalizing]

so lithium chloride is present in water naturally and its toxic ? so it comes out as, water with lithium is toxic regardless of the study done related to prevention of suicide by drinking lithium water ? *confusion*

Edited by normalizing, 21 November 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[blood]

so lithium chloride is present in water naturally and its toxic ? so it comes out as, water with lithium is toxic regardless of the study done related to prevention of suicide by drinking lithium water ? *confusion*

Lithium chloride was apparently used as a salt substitute in the 1940s... people were sprinkling large amounts on their food and got sick. It's probably no more toxic than lithium carbonate. All forms of lithium are toxic in excess amounts, including lithium orotate. Lithium chloride is apparently a form of lithium prevalent in *sea water* - I don't know if it is present in *drinking water*. Why do you care? Are you hell bent on taking the most "natural" & desirable form of lithium possible?

Edited by blood, 21 November 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[normalizing]

everyone likes water no ? if it can provide with minerals and other positive substances, why the fuck not ? why spend money on the pills ? and you are saying its present in sea water ? i read its present in mineral water from various sources all over the world. its a simple question really, isnt it good idea to drink your water as you do and consume lithium this way for whatever reason you are taking it in the first place than buy the pill forms and still, get a result ??

Edited by normalizing, 21 November 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[niner]

everyone likes water no ? if it can provide with minerals and other positive substances, why the fuck not ? why spend money on the pills ? and you are saying its present in sea water ? i read its present in mineral water from various sources all over the world. its a simple question really, isnt it good idea to drink your water as you do and consume lithium this way for whatever reason you are taking it in the first place than buy the pill forms and still, get a result ??

If you can find a mineral water that will tell you how much lithium it contains, then you'd know how much to drink in order to get the amount of lithium you want. Good luck with that. Dose matters.

[Heh]

I think it's 0.5-1mg/liter in mineral water.

Edited by Joel, 21 November 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[Guardian4981]

I have tried a plethora of things the past 2 years to try to combat what happened to me.

I finally think I may have found something, I have been using Raw Kidney glandular the past week and this is the best I have felt in a long time. My energy is up, circulation is better, and libido is up.

My kidney blood tests were normal outside urea, perhaps the kidney glandular is helping lower urea which then has alot of downstream beneficial influence on my overall well being.

Im not certain whether my issues were from lithium or years of chronic dieting and excercise, my guess is a combination.

Not sure whether this kidney glandular will "heal" me or whether I will have to take kidney support for a very long time.

[mikeinnaples]

I think it's 0.5-1mg/liter in mineral water.

This is strictly a guess from you isn't it? There are so many sources of mineral water that it has to widely vary. Hell, I imagine it varies some even from the same source .....