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Long time low T sufferer

low testosterone

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#1 dunbar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:42 AM


I have been having low T ever since. I believe I always had low T. My issue is low LH. My LH has always been borderline low in all tests I ever took. I got a piuitary MRI with dye last year and they found nothing.

As teenager I didn't grow any facial hair until 20. I also noticed how damn weak I was in sports. It was embarassing.
I could never even do 1 regular pushup and still can't!
I used to workout straight for 1,5 years and my best weight on the bench ever was 50 kilos, bar included! Most males press this weight without ever being in a gym.

At age 21 I first had my T measured and it was already borderline low. I then went to an endocrinology professor who made fun of my symptoms and acted like I only wanted to juice.
He measured and my T was again borderline and he said that this is okay and that I won't get anything even if my T was below normal I'd not get anything.
I went to second professor. Same story. He also told me it's all fine.

I also did a test where you're injected with something which makes your LH and FSH go up to see if it can be stimulated. This test was also normal which means that these hormones
could be stimulated. But this doesn't change the fact the I simply produce too little LH. My testicles are also okay they are not the issue. The issue is simply that my body obviously thinks that
I only need borderline levels of testosterone. :sad:

Then for a few years I did nothing. I was simply discouraged.
Then I went to a urologist, he had no damn clue about hormones. He told me that he would do a T gel cycle with me this would increase my own production lol!
I'm 30 now. And I look totally sick. I'm skinny fat and store fat on the outer thighs and the butt just like women.
I thought maybe my E2 is totally high but I had it checked many times during the years and it was always in the normal range between 20-30.
My hands and forearms are totally thin. If I wasn't skinny fat but only skinny I'd pretty much
look like the machinist in the movie the machinist.

I really don't know what to do anymore. The problem is that outside of the US it's much different. Here in Europe (except Hertoghe who's too expensive and too far away from me) there are no male doctors open to hormone therapy and those which are know nothing about it. Last year I gave it another try and went to another endocrinologist. He once again ran expensive labs and my T was below normal this time.
He said I should go on TRT. He put me on testosterone gel. But the gel didn't really work. I mean my testicles shrank a lot in short time. But my T levels were still too low and I was already on the max dose of the gel.
Then the doc said I need testosterone shots. But where I live there is ONLY testoviron 250mg which is injected every 2-3 weeks or Nebido which is injected every 10 weeks.
Both injections suck. Testoviron makes your T levels go through the roof at first and then after 2 weeks you're already below normal. And Nebido is a gigantic 1000mg injection which probably hurts a lot and I also
read stories online about Nebido being dangerous because it can cause a lung embolism. I asked my endo if it's not possible to inject smaller doses like 100mg every 5 days and he said no. He doesn't allow self-injections
because he fears getting in trouble if something happens. The only choice I had was basically going on Testoviron and then getting the shots from my GP every 2-3 weeks. Which means I'd have had to drive to my GP
for shots all the time.

I wasn't really sure if I should try out Testoviron. I was scared of side effects like hair loss and getting acne.
And I also don't want this rollercoaster. I don't want abnormally high T levels after the injection. I bet this is also not really healthy. I just want normal high levels.

In all the years where I had my T measured multiple times my best level which I ever had one time was 15ng/ml. Usually I had levels between 8-12ng/ml.

And what happened now is that I had to go to the endocrinologist again because of something different and he drew blood and also measured testosterone and now my level was 13ng/ml and he was like "Your T looks good, you don't need TRT".

This means that I'm not back at zero again. He was basically the only endocrinologist in my whole region who I had not already been to. I'm not once again out of a doctor who would even be willing to put me on TRT.

I don't know what to do now. I know that low T is bad. I feel bad. I look so shitty. I don't know how I'd look with more T, though. Maybe more T would change nothing?

But now I don't even have hope in trying TRT.

Back when I saw the endocrinologist and discussed TRT with him I also asked if it's not possible to take HCG instead of injecting T. He said no, way to expensive and also not paid by insurances.
I asked him about aromatase inhibitors in case E2 goes up. He also doesn't use that.

This was also one reason why I didn't want to try the injections cause I worried that in case there are complications and my E2 goes up then I couldn't have done anything about it.
I mean would it even have made sense to go on TRT when you know that your doctor does not use AIs?
I think that the use of AIs in men is not very common at all among orthodox doctors. And also low T isn't really taken very seriously.

Edited by dunbar, 01 December 2013 - 04:51 AM.


#2 Ark

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 05:22 AM

some fast tips,

lift weights to boost t levels*(SQUATS)
eliminate estrogen from your diet aka bounce out the SOY products
before HRT try changing your diet/add test boosting foods to your diet.
Natural test boosers etc.
Clomid*short cycle*
DHEA
Deer Antler
Vitamin D3
DAA
Humanofort type products(igf based growth) -colostrum etc...
Velvet Bean
Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione

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#3 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 01 December 2013 - 05:28 AM

If you'd like to try aromatase inhibitors (AIs), here's what I do:

Snap open a capsule of indole-3-carbinol AKA I3C (link below), and add it to a fiber drink. The aromatase inhibitors that are available over the counter usually take effect all at once and are then gone and can cause stomach upsets when taken this way. Adding it to a fiber drink and using a shaker cup to mix it up with some vitamin C powder for flavor, will raise your T levels if your problem is the result of producing too much estrogen. It takes me all day to consume the fiber drink and sometimes I only drink half of it a day and not on weekends.

The prescription AIs are much stronger cancer drugs aimed at starving your system of AI and estrogen and may cause cancer in an otherwise healthy individual or may prevent cancer in smaller hormone correcting doses. There are tests for aromatase IIRC, so if you have single payer and they'll do the testing I'd go for it before and after to ensure that you're taking it safely and in the correct doses. As you're using powder and drinking a volume of it, you should be able to get some pretty optimal levels as opposed to a one size fits all pill. Do you have anything like gynecomastia?


I3C
http://www.vitacost....dole-3-carbinol

Fiber suggestions:
http://www.vitacost....ium-husk-powder
http://www.lef.org/V...usk-Powder.html

Gynecomastia:
http://www.google.co....57155469,d.cGU

The life extension foundation (LEF) also has a subscription service for $75/yr that lets you talk to their docs and health advisors who give some pretty good advice IMO. They can't give you a perscription, but they can tell you how to get the results your looking for from nutritional supplements or give you the info you need to be taken seriously by your doc.
http://www.lef.org/m...hip/pricing.htm

#4 dunbar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:10 AM

Hi, thanks for your replies.

I dont eat soy at all.
Years ago I tried Tribulus a few times and I don't think it worked. I didn't feel anything.
I am already taking vitamin D3.
I never took DHEA cause I dont know how safe it is. DHEA can be converted into estrogen, too. So how do I know if it even works? I'd be worried of boosting my estrogen with DHEA.
I don't have clomid. I'm also not sure how safe it is. I read that clomid can cause depression and other side effects. I'd rather inject HCG but I dont have that either.

I am really sceptical that T boosters can really do much for me. I mean even if they raise my T a bit, how shall I know?
That's another issue. I mean even if I decided to "self-medicate" then I still need a doctor to check my levels to see if it's working but usually doctors don't measure hormones unless there is a reason to.
I cant go to my GP and then ask him to measure my hormones regularly to see if my experiments are working or not.
What I also worry about is side effects. What if I mess up my hormones and then need to go to the endocrinologist and confess everything to him?

Working out didn't do anything for me. If working out would solve my T issues then it would have done that while I still worked out. Now I cannot work out anymore. I got way too many bodily issues. My shoulders are both impinged. It's depressing.
I also have pain in the knees. I really can't workout anymore.

No I don't have gyno. I have fat on the tits, but it's not a gyno.

How do you know that I3C is really working for you? Do you measure your T levels before and after?
I'm not sure if this would work for me cause my E2 isn't really the issue. If a person has low T but normal E2 then would it make sense to take something like this?

At LEF, can you really call in all the time or do you have limited calls?
And it says "health advisors", how do I know if they know what they are talking about?

Another issue is limited access to supplements. Many supps which are available in the US are not available in Europe. Ordering from the US is too risky because of customs.
This sucks cause there are many interesting supps out there.

#5 Ark

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:35 AM

It sounds like your worried about the cures as much as your low T levels, it will be hard for you to treat yourself without going a bit out on a limb. You could try hiring a natural-path doctor to help you out, then do some T-panels and see where your at, a personal trainer to help you stay with weight lifting would be advisable.

Attached Files


Edited by Ark, 01 December 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#6 CholinergiX

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:44 AM

CDP-Choline increases LH
Stinging Nettle tea increases Testosterone

Minerals:
Boron
IODINE
Magnesium

Possible causes of your low T: Mercury poisoning or plastic chemicals poisoning(Bisphenol-A, pthalates etc...) or low status of some of minerals listed above.

IODINE is deprecated for detoxing from plastic chemicals, I reccommend you to take at least 1mg(1000ug) of iodine.


I have also T little lower than others, I have few facial hairs in age 20, but I am muscular as I lifting weights from age 15 and its getting better as I am taking lot of minerals and detoxing from mercury poisoning.

Sorry my english

#7 YOLF

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

I have baseline tests, but I haven't done the post AI tests. I've noticed a difference in my voice and behavior and on days when I don't drink the fiber drink, I notice that my voice reverts. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... I've been fat for a long time, so I'll need to change my physiology entirely (add lots of muscle) if I'm to keep off any weight.

My last call to LEF went something like this:

I called in and talked to a health adviser, the health adviser collected my information and forwarded it to a doctor and scheduled a phone call.

The current list of LEF health advisers is: "(naturopaths, nurses, nutritionists, even personal trainers)." I spoke to a doctor IIRC, so I'm not sure if that's changed or not. Either way, I'd give them a try, they'll give you a prorated refund if you aren't satisfied, so call them, talk to their pros, do some research, and see if it's good info or not.

#8 dunbar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:44 PM

I just worry that TRT could go wrong. I mean what if you go on it and then lose all your hair? Would that be worth it?
And the available protocols which I mentioned also suck. Even the books which I have say that testoviron every 2-3 weeks isn't good because of the spikes.

I never heard about CDP Choline. Could this be taken long term?
I'm not really sure on iodine. Should I first get my serum levels measured before taking high iodine doses? I am also taking T4 for latent hypothyroidism cause my TSH used to be high.
But I don't have antibodies. But I also read you can still have AI diseases without having antibodies. Because of this I avoided iodine. I dont even use iodine salt.

Do the LEF people basically tell you to buy the supplements on their website? I mean does it only make sense to become a member if you're also able to order the supplements?
That's an issue cause I can't order from the US because of the customs. What if they say I need supplement X but I can't get it?

#9 YOLF

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:56 PM

AFAIK the "lose all your hair" thing won't happen unless you're going to lose it anyways. It might just happen faster. Even if it does, better to wear a wig or just shave it all entirely. Do you like hats? Who needs hair when you're a guy?

Iodine can be estimated from you diet. The Japanese have high levels from their seafood and live nice long lives. Iodine isn't inherently bad for you. The salt is probably worse, I'd cut back on that.

You could ask if they have a euro site and also take their advice on supplements and buy from places that you are able to. Like I said, give it a try and if it won't work out for you, they'll give you a refund. It's one of those things where you won't know until you've tried and if you don't waste time you won't have a whole lot to use. Even if it takes your a month to get it figured out, you've only lost $6.25 if you bought the yearly membership. But I think you'll be able to find something in the EU that you'll be able to buy that will work for you and if you can't and you know what might help, you could do a little travel and try it out for a while and bring it up with your government.

Can you provide a list of things you can't get or explain the supplement prohibitions?

#10 dunbar

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:07 AM

Hi,
I don't know much about iodine. I know some people take Lugol solution. And other people say that this isn't safe and not for internal use.
I could get iodine tablets though. This would be no problem they are freely available. The only thing I'd worry about is safety. I don't know if taking iodine is safe when you're already taking
synthetic thyroid hormones. Would it somehow affect the TSH? One doctor warned me not to take iodine. He said that the brain doesn't differentiate between iodine and thyroid hormones.
If this is true then this would mean that taking iodine would lower your TSH cause the brain thinks that there's plenty of thyroid hormones in the blood.

I can't really give you a list with all forbidden things. A few years ago I ordered sesamine caps from the US and the customs didn't want to let it through. Then after a few weeks I got a message
that it's allowed but they first had to show it to a doctor. They're very problematic. There basically is no way to even know if a certain herb/substance is allowed or not. Melatonine is also forbidden
over here.

#11 YOLF

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 12:51 AM

In Japan they apparently average 1000-3000ug as a result of eating seaweed and kelp. I imagine that the fiber portion of the kelp or in the rest of their meals may slow the absorption some. It doesn't seem to negatively impact their health. I guess you could get some of this kelp and eat it or get some kelp supplements as this would be the safest way to take it. The iodine pills IIRC are for having around in the event of a nuclear war or catastrophe so the radioactive iodine won't get absorbed. Iodine is also bio-available through the skin, so you could also try painting a 2cm square on your arm and it will slowly be absorbed (just make sure it disappears, if it doesn't, it's not getting in). Most importantly, go through your diet and see how much of the stuff you're actually getting and how that stacks up to the RDA.

I'm not sure about TSH, that question would be better posed to someone else as I haven't studied much about it recently. Customs has to have a list of forbidden things somewhere. Otherwise, what you might want to do is include a list of the things you ordered and a statement declaring that you did your "due diligence" to comply with the customs law in the "comments" section of the order as this will show up on the packing slip.

#12 dunbar

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:47 AM

Hi, I am really confused about iodine. I mean some people say it's good others say it's bad. I don't know what to think.
For example just today I read that people in Japan have far more thyroid diseases than people in other countries. Not sure if this is right but if it is then this would mean
that iodine isn't harmless.

#13 YOLF

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 02:49 AM

Hmm... I'm not sure what to tell you other than look at your diet and choose the RDA of the culture you trust most. You could try small increments painted on your skin and see if anything changes or do some blood work. I wish I knew a better way to figure things out.

Are you trying everything at once, or trying it one at a time?

#14 dunbar

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:47 AM

Hi,
what do you mean with everything at once? I am currently only taking T4, nothing else.

I will try to get my iodine levels measured. I am really curious about this. If they are low then I know I probably have to take it.

My thyroid doc replied to my question if I could be low in iodine that I'd have a goiter if I was low. I don't know if it's really that simple or if you can still be low without goiter.

#15 blood

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:49 AM

Admittedly this isn't a mainstream therapy, but prescription estrogen blockers such as clomid seem like a very elegant, low risk approach to treating low testosterone:
http://www.ergo-log....onetherapy.html
http://www.ergo-log....stosterone.html

Prescription AIs would be another option:
http://www.ergo-log....letrozole2.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/letrozole.html

Edited by blood, 11 December 2013 - 07:39 AM.

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#16 YOLF

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:29 AM

Sorry Dunbar, I'm all out of advice :(

You could become a cryonicist and see if docs in the future can treat you.

You've brought up some good characterizations of apathetic docs though. I've been wondering what causes this. I hear that docs are regularly courted by the pharma industry and further imagined that pharma throws parties and such making the lives of docs very tied to pharma info, so combine that with having to wait so long for your next appointment and I think that's where the problem is. If you go to a doc and have appts that are closer together there is likely more interest in helping you or paying attention to the details. But breaking up doc visits causes the doc to lose sight of their enthusiasm for patients. If we only meet a few times a year and meetings were months apart, I wouldn't be as likely to withhold as much information on you. Sure there is paperwork, but not everything gets written down and I doubt docs can remember what you said to them 3 months ago. I think we need a revolution in the doctoring business.

#17 dunbar

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:16 AM

@ blood

Letrozole sounds really good. But again, how does this help me when I have no doc willing to prescribe it? I also asked my endocrinologist about HCG and AIs and he was totally against this
If a doctor doesn't know a drug or has no experience with it he won't use it. :sad:

@ cryonicsculture

The experience I made is that doctors only do what they are familiar with. If you suggest something to them which they don't know or which is extraordinary then they won't do it.
There is also no point in arguing with doctors. If a doc doesn't want to prescribe something then there is nothing you can do.

#18 bernax

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:03 AM

Testosterone is totally diet related, your body makes it from cholesterol. Ginger is a way of naturally boosting T levels.

#19 nowayout

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

If you have low T, as it sounds, you are not going to get anywhere with herbal supplements. The Nebido is not so bad, why not try it for a bit and see how you do? You won't get a lung embolism if the injection is done correctly, as doctors and nurses are trained to do (basically they just have to not inject in a vein, which they check by simply pulling out on the syringe a bit before injecting to see that no blood comes out).

The great majority of men on replacement doses of testosterone don't need an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase inhibitors are more useful for bodybuilders who inject very large doses of testosterone. They are not usually needed for T replacement - that is a bit of an internet myth.

If you don't like it, you can just stop.

If you prefer something that is out of your system quickly if you don't like it, why not ask for a testosterone cream or gel? No injections and no ups and downs.

Edited by nowayout, 03 January 2014 - 12:55 PM.


#20 bernax

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

If you have low T, as it sounds, you are not going to get anywhere with herbal supplements. The Nebido is not so bad, why not try it for a bit and see how you do? You won't get a lung embolism if the injection is done correctly, as doctors and nurses are trained to do (basically they just have to not inject in a vein, which they check by simply pulling out on the syringe a bit before injecting to see that no blood comes out).

The great majority of men on replacement doses of testosterone don't need an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase inhibitors are more useful for bodybuilders who inject very large doses of testosterone. They are not usually needed for T replacement - that is a bit of an internet myth.

If you don't like it, you can just stop.

If you prefer something that is out of your system quickly if you don't like it, why not ask for a testosterone cream or gel? No injections and no ups and downs.

And why exactly wouldn't herbal supplements work?

#21 nowayout

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

If you have low T, as it sounds, you are not going to get anywhere with herbal supplements. The Nebido is not so bad, why not try it for a bit and see how you do? You won't get a lung embolism if the injection is done correctly, as doctors and nurses are trained to do (basically they just have to not inject in a vein, which they check by simply pulling out on the syringe a bit before injecting to see that no blood comes out).

The great majority of men on replacement doses of testosterone don't need an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase inhibitors are more useful for bodybuilders who inject very large doses of testosterone. They are not usually needed for T replacement - that is a bit of an internet myth.

If you don't like it, you can just stop.

If you prefer something that is out of your system quickly if you don't like it, why not ask for a testosterone cream or gel? No injections and no ups and downs.

And why exactly wouldn't herbal supplements work?


Because none have been proved to work. In fact, all the ones people recommend have been proven NOT to work. And herbs are mot safer just because they are natural - in fact herbs can be dangerous too.

Edited by nowayout, 03 January 2014 - 01:41 PM.


#22 bernax

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:00 PM

If you have low T, as it sounds, you are not going to get anywhere with herbal supplements. The Nebido is not so bad, why not try it for a bit and see how you do? You won't get a lung embolism if the injection is done correctly, as doctors and nurses are trained to do (basically they just have to not inject in a vein, which they check by simply pulling out on the syringe a bit before injecting to see that no blood comes out).

The great majority of men on replacement doses of testosterone don't need an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase inhibitors are more useful for bodybuilders who inject very large doses of testosterone. They are not usually needed for T replacement - that is a bit of an internet myth.

If you don't like it, you can just stop.

If you prefer something that is out of your system quickly if you don't like it, why not ask for a testosterone cream or gel? No injections and no ups and downs.

And why exactly wouldn't herbal supplements work?


Because none have been proved to work. In fact, all the ones people recommend have been proven NOT to work. And herbs are mot safer just because they are natural - in fact herbs can be dangerous too.


Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2013 Dec;64(8):974-8. doi: 10.3109/09637486.2013.812618. Epub 2013 Jul 18.

Antioxidant and androgenic effects of dietary ginger on reproductive function of male diabetic rats.

Ghlissi Z, Atheymen R, Boujbiha MA, Sahnoun Z, Makni Ayedi F, Zeghal K, El Feki A, Hakim A.


Author information



Abstract


This study evaluated the antioxidant and androgenic properties of ginger roots on the reproductive function of male diabetic rats. Animals were divided into three groups; the control (Control), diabetic (Diab) and diabetic fed with dietary ginger for 30 d (Diab + Z). Thereafter, blood samples were collected and reproductive organs (testis, epididymis, prostate and seminal vesicle) were removed for determination of sperm parameters, malondialdehyde (MDA) level, glutathione peroxidase (GPx), superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), alkaline phosphatase (ALP) and aspartate and lactate aminotransferase (AST and ALT) activities. Dietary ginger decreased blood glucose and MDA level, increased reproductive organ weights and testosterone level, improved semen quantity and motility, and ameliorated the SOD, CAT and GPx activities as well as testis AST, ALT, LDH and ALP activities. Intake of ginger roots improves the antioxidant and androgenic reproductive function of male diabetic rats in addition to its antidiabetic property.

Androgen, also called androgenic hormone or testoid, is the generic term for any natural or synthetic compound, usually a steroid hormone, that stimulates or controls the development and maintenance of male characteristics in vertebrates by binding to androgen receptors.[1] This includes the activity of the accessory male sex organs and development of male secondary sex characteristics. Androgens were first discovered in 1936. Androgens are also the original anabolic steroids and the precursor of all estrogens. The primary and most well-known androgen is testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and androstenedioneare less known generally, but are of equal importance in male development. DHT in the embryo life causes differentiation of penis, scrotum and prostate. Later in life DHT contributes to male balding, prostate growth and sebaceous gland activity.

enough proof for me

#23 bernax

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:12 PM

If you have low T, as it sounds, you are not going to get anywhere with herbal supplements. The Nebido is not so bad, why not try it for a bit and see how you do? You won't get a lung embolism if the injection is done correctly, as doctors and nurses are trained to do (basically they just have to not inject in a vein, which they check by simply pulling out on the syringe a bit before injecting to see that no blood comes out).

The great majority of men on replacement doses of testosterone don't need an aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase inhibitors are more useful for bodybuilders who inject very large doses of testosterone. They are not usually needed for T replacement - that is a bit of an internet myth.

If you don't like it, you can just stop.

If you prefer something that is out of your system quickly if you don't like it, why not ask for a testosterone cream or gel? No injections and no ups and downs.

And why exactly wouldn't herbal supplements work?


Because none have been proved to work. In fact, all the ones people recommend have been proven NOT to work. And herbs are mot safer just because they are natural - in fact herbs can be dangerous too.


Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2013 Dec;64(8):974-8. doi: 10.3109/09637486.2013.812618. Epub 2013 Jul 18.
Antioxidant and androgenic effects of dietary ginger on reproductive function of male diabetic rats.

Ghlissi Z, Atheymen R, Boujbiha MA, Sahnoun Z, Makni Ayedi F, Zeghal K, El Feki A, Hakim A.

Author information



Abstract


This study evaluated the antioxidant and androgenic properties of ginger roots on the reproductive function of male diabetic rats. Animals were divided into three groups; the control (Control), diabetic (Diab) and diabetic fed with dietary ginger for 30 d (Diab + Z). Thereafter, blood samples were collected and reproductive organs (testis, epididymis, prostate and seminal vesicle) were removed for determination of sperm parameters, malondialdehyde (MDA) level, glutathione peroxidase (GPx), superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), alkaline phosphatase (ALP) and aspartate and lactate aminotransferase (AST and ALT) activities. Dietary ginger decreased blood glucose and MDA level, increased reproductive organ weights and testosterone level, improved semen quantity and motility, and ameliorated the SOD, CAT and GPx activities as well as testis AST, ALT, LDH and ALP activities. Intake of ginger roots improves the antioxidant and androgenic reproductive function of male diabetic rats in addition to its antidiabetic property.

Androgen, also called androgenic hormone or testoid, is the generic term for any natural or synthetic compound, usually a steroid hormone, that stimulates or controls the development and maintenance of male characteristics in vertebrates by binding to androgen receptors.[1] This includes the activity of the accessory male sex organs and development of male secondary sex characteristics. Androgens were first discovered in 1936. Androgens are also the original anabolic steroids and the precursor of all estrogens. The primary and most well-known androgen is testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and androstenedioneare less known generally, but are of equal importance in male development. DHT in the embryo life causes differentiation of penis, scrotum and prostate. Later in life DHT contributes to male balding, prostate growth and sebaceous gland activity.

enough proof for me

ok i didn't read that good enough, obviously a study on diabetic rats is no proof

#24 dunbar

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:26 PM

Hi,
I really doubt that low T is that easy to fix. My cholesterol isnt really that low. And I always had low T.
My LH is low which means my balls dont get the command to make enough T. This cannot simply be fixed
with herbs. I also tried tribulus in the past and it didn't work.

Nebido would be an option but my stupid endo has now decided that I dont need TRT at all cause my last
T levels were once again borderline normal which is good enough for him. Posted Image
Now I'm without endo willing to treat me.

#25 nowayout

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:09 AM

One hormone test is not a valid basis for any treatment decision. He should take the average of several, and persistence of symptoms is much more important than one test that squeaks in over the lower limit.

Endos are seldom great at TRT. They tend to do diabetes and thyroid treatment well but male hormone replacement is not usually their forté. A urologist may be a better bet if you don't have access to any doctor who specializes in anti-aging.

Edited by nowayout, 04 January 2014 - 06:16 AM.


#26 YOLF

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:20 AM

Obesity almost guarantees low T in men though doesn't it?

#27 Jembe

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:59 AM

The harsh truth is that Europe is not the place to live if you need androgen treatments. I'm moving away from the continent ASAP myself. Drastic, yes, but necessary. I did manage to acquire an aromatase inhibitor legally, however, and it has helped to an extent. I'm looking forward to starting the full regimen abroad.

#28 dunbar

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

I dont know if all fat men have low T. But it raises risk of conversion.

Where do you wanna go Jembe? USA? I dont know if I'd want to live there either. Too much crime, natural catastrophes. Every jerk owning a gun. This sounds dangerous.

But Europe also stinks. Europe is going down the tube. I dont want to live there 50 years from now.
Already now it's bad and it will only get worse. The europeans are dying out. Soon Europe will be Eurasia. Welcome to hell.
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#29 YOLF

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:12 AM

Here's what's happening in the world, this is what you are part of:

First watch this:


So Global shift is happening and the end result will be Global Parity. It will take some time to get there, but the faster we do, the less the world sucks and the sooner the world stops sucking. The developed world is giving it all away so to speak and it needs to happen, we need to move forward because the more people we elevate, the more elevated the human species will become and every mind that works toward curing disease and aging brings us closer to success, If only the US and Europe were working on these things, there would be just over a billion people working to solve the world's problems (including yours), but now we China (+1.4 Billion), and India (+1.2 Billion), That's 3.6 Billion and there's more to go! We're working harder than ever if you look at it right and the biggest part of your depression probably results from no one telling you this. If all you hear is how bad things are, you're sleeping through the most exponential growth in History. Ignore the bad stuff. You're not in an intelligence organization, you're not a cop or a policy maker, it's not your job and you're too pessimistic to work with the world on finding a solution to it. So it shouldn't matter to you. The news makes money off of pessimism and doesn't report the good that's happening in the world, so turn them off and stop filling their coffers! They won't help you, but there is a whole world getting into gear to explode with technologies and cures and all sorts of things that have yet to be seen and you'd be better off working with it than crying about the things that are still wrong with it which other people are working to put an end to.

Go sign up for cryonics, you're going to love the future!
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#30 dunbar

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:19 AM

You may be right with the new technologies and all that. But usually the expensive treatments and all that aren't available for all and this isn't going to change.
People with bad insurances don't get the best most expensive drugs. This is a fact and I doubt this will ever be different. So if they invent new technologies which can do
great things then the normal people still won't be able to enjoy it. The good things will always be limited and this means that there will always be conflicts.
Imagine the develop an anti-cancer pill. It would cost so much that nobody would be able to afford it. And would the pharma companies even be interested in selling it or would
they suppress it?





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