I've tried melatonin. I work nights and sleep day time, which screws me up during night time because melatonin is naturally produced at dawn therefore I get that weird feeling during night time. So I stopped it. I was using only the 3 mg version. I've tried Valerian as well. Not sure about it yet, it was just a 6 pill sample I tried. Someone told me just take benadryl. I'm not into those type of products you get at CVS. I have tried l-theanine but I think it's for relaxing, just as much as phenibut is, which may lead to sleep. Correct my facts if I'm wrong. I'm looking into aromatherapy as well, perhaps the smell of something can induce sleep without popping more pills?
#1
Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:45 PM
I've tried melatonin. I work nights and sleep day time, which screws me up during night time because melatonin is naturally produced at dawn therefore I get that weird feeling during night time. So I stopped it. I was using only the 3 mg version. I've tried Valerian as well. Not sure about it yet, it was just a 6 pill sample I tried. Someone told me just take benadryl. I'm not into those type of products you get at CVS. I have tried l-theanine but I think it's for relaxing, just as much as phenibut is, which may lead to sleep. Correct my facts if I'm wrong. I'm looking into aromatherapy as well, perhaps the smell of something can induce sleep without popping more pills?
#2
Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:28 PM
#3
Posted 06 December 2013 - 09:07 AM
#4
Posted 06 December 2013 - 09:32 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16298774Aromatherapy is an anecdotal method for modifying sleep and mood. However, whether olfactory exposure to essential oils affects night-time objective sleep remains untested. Previous studies also demonstrate superior olfactory abilities in women. Therefore, this study investigated the effects of an olfactory stimulus on subsequent sleep and assessed gender differences in such effects. Thirty-one young healthy sleepers (16 men and 15 women, aged 18 to 30 yr, mean+/-SD, 20.5+/-2.4 yr) completed 3 consecutive overnight sessions in a sleep laboratory: one adaptation, one stimulus, and one control night (the latter 2 nights in counterbalanced order). Subjects received an intermittent presentation (first 2 min of each 10 min interval) of an olfactory (lavender oil) or a control (distilled water) stimulus between 23:10 and 23:40 h. Standard polysomnographic sleep and self-rated sleepiness and mood data were collected. Lavender increased the percentage of deep or slow-wave sleep (SWS) in men and women. All subjects reported higher vigor the morning after lavender exposure, corroborating the restorative SWS increase. Lavender also increased stage 2 (light) sleep, and decreased rapid-eye movement (REM) sleep and the amount of time to reach wake after first falling asleep (wake after sleep onset latency) in women, with opposite effects in men. Thus, lavender serves as a mild sedative and has practical applications as a novel, nonphotic method for promoting deep sleep in young men and women and for producing gender-dependent sleep effects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3203283/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16131287
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16520572
http://www.hindawi.c...am/2012/740813/
Also Melatonin at 5 mg before bed (hope i don't have to post studies on that), as well as 3 grams of glycine:
http://onlinelibrary...0262.x/abstractIn human volunteers who have been continuously experiencing unsatisfactory sleep, effects of glycine ingestion (3 g) before bedtime on subjective sleep quality were investigated, and changes in polysomnography (PSG) during sleep were analyzed. Effects on daytime sleepiness and daytime cognitive function were also evaluated. Glycine improved subjective sleep quality and sleep efficacy (sleep time/in-bed time), and shortened PSG latency both to sleep onset and to slow wave sleep without changes in the sleep architecture. Glycine lessened daytime sleepiness and improved performance of memory recognition tasks. Thus, a bolus ingestion of glycine before bedtime seems to produce subjective and objective improvement of the sleep quality in a different way than traditional hypnotic drugs such as benzodiazepines
http://onlinelibrary...0193.x/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3328957/
Also magnesium has been shown to help. GABAergic supplements (e.g. Kava, Lemon Balm) are usually suggested but there's a pretty heavy bias against them here on longecity so Im not sure whether you'll be interested in going down that path. Personally i find some of them very enjoyable as they give me great sleep with super vivid dreams, long term reductions in anxiety, and zero withdrawals. Saddens me to see such helpful things so heavily panned in such a generally accepting community (injecting pig brain proteins is o.k. but don't touch that addictive Ashwagandha! <sarcasm>). Certain ones like Kava and Picamilon have very undeserved bias and have shown zero addictive potential with lots of therapeutic potential:
http://www.longecity...r-upregulation/
http://www.longecity...lp/#entry626235
But that's just my opinion....
Edited by Dizzon, 06 December 2013 - 10:11 AM.
#5
Posted 06 December 2013 - 01:06 PM
#6
Posted 06 December 2013 - 01:09 PM
#7
Posted 06 December 2013 - 01:19 PM
My regimen when I need a heavy night's sleep is 1g of taurine, 500mg tyrosine, 1g melatonin, 1 ashwaghanda (himalayan herbs), 200 mg kava kava, 200 mg magnesium.
#8
Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:21 PM
You were taking way too much melatonin. Try taking 750mg-1g at most.
My regimen when I need a heavy night's sleep is 1g of taurine, 500mg tyrosine, 1g melatonin, 1 ashwaghanda (himalayan herbs), 200 mg kava kava, 200 mg magnesium.
Hey, do you want to kill the man with such a dose?
The range you quoted should be 750 micrograms - 1 milligram.
#9
Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:27 PM
You were taking way too much melatonin. Try taking 750mg-1g at most.
My regimen when I need a heavy night's sleep is 1g of taurine, 500mg tyrosine, 1g melatonin, 1 ashwaghanda (himalayan herbs), 200 mg kava kava, 200 mg magnesium.
Hey, do you want to kill the man with such a dose?
The range you quoted should be 750 micrograms - 1 milligram.
Yes absolutely,
Please disregard my previous dosage recommendation, I can't edit it.
Edited by theconomist, 06 December 2013 - 08:27 PM.
#10
Posted 07 December 2013 - 11:51 AM
#11
Posted 07 December 2013 - 01:31 PM
who ever said they were using such a high dose? I've only used the 3 mg version. They all come in different doses from 1 mg to 10 mg. I have not seen anything higher than that. I didn't know taurine was for "sleep" when these usually are ingredients in some "energy" drinks.
I remember reading that Taurine is used in energy drinks to balance out the jittering effects you get from caffeine. - I don't have a source at hand unfortunately but I'm sure you can find it rather easily.
Subjectively, I can attest that it works perfectly and helps me have a great sleep.
#12
Posted 07 December 2013 - 08:34 PM
who ever said they were using such a high dose? I've only used the 3 mg version. They all come in different doses from 1 mg to 10 mg. I have not seen anything higher than that. I didn't know taurine was for "sleep" when these usually are ingredients in some "energy" drinks.
I remember reading that Taurine is used in energy drinks to balance out the jittering effects you get from caffeine. - I don't have a source at hand unfortunately but I'm sure you can find it rather easily.
Subjectively, I can attest that it works perfectly and helps me have a great sleep.
What about the tyrosine? Isn't that somewhat activating? I'd have thought tryptophan or 5HTP would be more appropriate before bed?
#13
Posted 08 December 2013 - 09:33 AM
I don't like 5-htp. It's not supposed to be good for your heart if you have valve issues. I've used it for depression along with SAMe and St. John's Wort many years ago. I'm glad I stopped.
Edited by eon, 08 December 2013 - 09:34 AM.
#14
Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:12 PM
#15
Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:20 PM
I just tried some 500mg time-release Niacin (nicotinic acid). I think I noticed my face getting warm an hour later after I took it, since this was a time-release form. I drank 2 glasses of water when I took the capsule. Not bad. I kinda like the warm feeling. Once my bottle is done I'll look into the regular release version.
Hopefully, it is a safe form of time release. In my opinion, the liver needs little breaks from niacin, and time-release niacin can subject it to prolonged exposure.
I am a big fan of niacin and niacinamide. If you are taking niacin for sleep, maybe you do not need niacin at all, because niacinamide might do that job. Niacinamide is my favourite of the two, but I take both--niacin at breakfast, niacinamide later on.
Edited by Gerrans, 12 December 2013 - 12:23 PM.
#16
Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:31 AM
#17
Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:39 PM
does anyone really sell the UNSAFE version of time-release Niacin? LOL.
Niacin supplementation needs to be sporadic. I think any supplement that tries to supply the liver with a constant drip of niacin is missing the point and potentially counterproductive. I have been experimenting with niacin for a while, and I think I can now sense (through body heat), the coming and going of effects from a niacin, niacinamide, B complex vitamin, or multivitamin pill. Usually you are done in about 3.5 hours--and then you know you might take another one if you like. Timed release screws that awareness up, and you do not know what the effect is or when.
Edited by Gerrans, 13 December 2013 - 01:42 PM.
#18
Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:50 AM
Edited by eon, 14 December 2013 - 09:51 AM.
#19
Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:44 PM
Thanks for explaining. I thought time release means since it is slowly released, it stays in the body for hours, but not the liver? I didn't feel much "flush" since it's time-release niacin which probably lessens the "flush" as it is not all released at once.
Niacin research is a bit of an eye-opener, and not just about niacin but about the motivations behind research in general. There is remarkably little research about niacin or niacinamide for their own sake (hardly a thing on niacinamide and arthritis, for example)--the aim of the vast majority of research is to find a way of beating the flush, the reason being that the flush puts off the majority of potential niacin takers, and so a non-flushing niacin formula with the same effect as flushing niacin would be worth a fortune. There is no money in plain cheap old niacin and niacinamide, which anyone can manufacture. I think this is why there is such a preoccupation with slow-release formulae.
But the way I look at it is this: the flush signals the effect. The body clearly wants to react to niacin with a tangible flush, because its effect upon blood flow is the greater if the effect is sudden, as is the stimulation of prostaglandins, platelets, etc., to produce cleansing effects, anti-inflammatory effects (and inflammatory effects, of course, which go hand in hand with the latter), and the reduction of cholesterol. To put it crudely, if you want to clean out a drain, you will do better with a bucket of water than with a sprinkler.
In my opinion, though, there is not much need to take niacin, as such, if you are not interested in lowering cholesterol, which I am not. The only reason I alternate a little niacin (100mg capsules) with my niacinamide is that too much niacinamide can conceivably tax the liver. (I admit the chances of upsetting the liver with normal niacin or niacinamide capsules are fairly low, but one might as well be cautious.) Since I take niacinamide and niacin mainly for arthritis and the warming effect, experiencing the flush from a dose of niacin is not important to me; but I would not like to take slow-release capsules, because then I would lose my niacin rhythm (as it were)--my awareness of how the supplements affect me from hour to hour.
As for sleep, which is the subject of this thread, I am not sure whether niacin or niacinamide help me with that or not. I have certainly identified a cosy, restful feeling from taking niacinamide, but it does not dull my senses (nor energise them). I would not risk taking niacin in the evening, in case a delayed flush struck while I was going to bed.
Edited by Gerrans, 14 December 2013 - 05:59 PM.
#20
Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:26 AM
#21
Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:58 AM
Last night I felt the flush being intense. I took the niacin pill with not much water. The advice was to drink 1-2 glasses of water to lessen or avoid the flush. I kinda like the feeling of this flush. It feel likes being burnt by the sun around noon. I felt it mostly on my head, felt like my hair was burning. It wasn't scary, just fun actually knowing that this was what a flush is.. LOL.
I can get a flush (even from my 100g pills), but it varies enormously. Sometimes it goes all over my body and lasts for an hour. Another time, I might feel nothing, or just a momentary tingle on my face.
For me it is not necessarily true that the flush is less if taken with food, because all my biggest flushes have been after breakfast--and I have a big breakfast. I do not enjoy the flushing myself, but I feel as if it is doing me good. It is stronger after a break from niacin, as if toxins or whatever have built up and react to the dilation and heating of the cutaneous blood.
Edited by Gerrans, 15 December 2013 - 12:00 PM.
#22
Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:26 AM
Edited by eon, 19 December 2013 - 03:30 AM.
#23
Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:24 PM
I'm curious why the flush is more intense after a workout? I did my workout 2 hours before I took a niacin. I observed this the past 3 days I have been working out. When not working out the flush is not as intense. Does it have anything to do with blood flow or something else? The flush is full body on my workout days but when not working out it's just upper body flush for the most part.
I do not know the answer. But I wonder if your skin contains more excretory materials after exercise. Niacin cleanses impurities from the skin, triggering something relating to inflammatory and anti-inflammatory mechanisms, involving prostaglandins. I believe the process is not yet fully understood.
#24
Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:18 AM
When the flush is intense, does that mean it's "cleaning" me? Meaning the niacin is doing its job because there's a need for it. So if the flush is not as intense does that mean that my body does not have much impurities to clean up?
#25
Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:18 AM
There was a mention of downloading the program called f.lux for my laptop to block out the blue lights. Not sure yet how it works but I think it dims out the brightness (or blueness of the laptop screen.
#26
Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:08 PM
Well one day I took a shower, so shouldn't this "clean" my skin or maybe the soap I used was so full of chemicals that the niacin flush became more intensified?
When the flush is intense, does that mean it's "cleaning" me? Meaning the niacin is doing its job because there's a need for it. So if the flush is not as intense does that mean that my body does not have much impurities to clean up?
I have read that less flush is a good sign. I find that once I have had a big flush, the next time I take niacin I get no flush or hardly any, so perhaps there is less work for the niacin to do in the skin. But if I leave a few days before taking niacin, I get a big flush again.
I do not think the flush has much to do with whether we shower or not. Since the skin is where our body meets the outside world, it is a protective and excretory organ, through which we detox lots of the impurities we are in contact with and divest ourselves of toxins from within. Immune cells in the skin, such as the Langerhans and mast cells, are designed to perform these cleansing functions, and they do so hand in hand with various capillary, prostanoid, and platelet processes that niacin stimulates by dilating blood cells and increasing blood flow.
Edited by Gerrans, 22 December 2013 - 12:10 PM.
#27
Posted 27 December 2013 - 07:07 PM
#28
Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:13 PM
#29
Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:15 AM
I know many people, who can't work night times, i know people, who got sick from it. My long term advice is: get another job.
Never tried sulbutiamine but I read it comes in those energy drinks so no wonder. I think Red Bull has sulbutiamine? I never liked 5-htp. It's bad for the heart from what I have read.
I read somewhere that sulbutiamine helped to wake up without grogginess and 5-HTP aided in falling asleep.
#30
Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:31 PM
What works best for me is to get plenty of mental AND physical exercise each day. If you wear yourself out, you will find it much easier to naturally fall asleep.
As a last resort, try sleep medications. Some discussion here.
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