39 replies to this topic

[dunbar]

I feel totally bad today. I have been lying in bed all day trying to distract me with TV but it doesn't work.
I feel so absolutely low. I wish I could just knock myself out somehow.
I don't know if stablon has anything to do with this. What if stablon actually makes my depression worse?
But it could as well have nothing to do with it.
However, a few hours ago I decided to take 30mg Ritalin LA, which I got for adhd, to see if it lifts my mood somehow. It did nothing at all!
This depresses me even more. I mean isn't dopamine supposed to make you feel better? Why doesn't it work for me?
I almost feel like there's nothing left to try now. I mean if ritalin doesn't give me a lift then which antidepressant could?
Wellbutrin also did nothing. And I doubt that a MAOI has a stronger dopaminergic effect than ritalin.
I read that in the past ritalin was first used as antidepressant. But then why doesn't it work for me? 30mg is a pretty high dose,
it's almost the max dose. I feel really bad now.

[Galaxyshock]

Give st. john's wort a try

[dunbar]

You mean this is strong enough against MDD? My doc said it's weak and only for mild depression.

But what sucks about SJW is the drug interactions, it has a lot.
I dont even know if I could still use a benzo or z-drug when on it.

[dunbar]

This is concerning. SJW damages the eyes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23453985

[Galaxyshock]

Not SJW but perhaps pure hypericin in excess: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9342768

This is a good overview on SJW:
http://journals.camb...368980000000562

In my opinion it's definitely worth a trial.

[dunbar]

Thanks for the link. It sounds promising but most drugs sound promising on paper. Stablon also sounded good.

I will ask my doc about SJW. But usually psychiatrists seem to think it's weaker than ssri.

Man, it's SO hard for me to even decide which drug I could try next. I am always scared of making the wrong choice or ending up worse and I also
don't have very much time to try many other drugs. I needed to find something which works asap.

[Galaxyshock]

Alright, side-effects are minimal compared to SSRIs and you definitely shouldn't end up worse. Pharmaceuticals may of course have some advantages.

SJW has a broad spectrum of therapeutic effects,
including opioid modulation: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2265593/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12595953

took care of my severe anhedonia with comorbid depression/anxiety issues

It tends to require couple of weeks to really kick in though..

[dunbar]

How much SJW extract did you take per dayß Do you take this once a day or multiple times?
And did you use a SJW supplement or a pharma SJW drug?

What worries me is drug interactions. I mean is it even known what kind of other psychiatric drugs you can still use when on SJW?
For example it would be very important for me to be able to use benzos in case I need them.

I also have ocd and anxiety. I heard that SJW can make people more agitated.

Edited by dunbar, 26 December 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[nowayout]

For some reason Stablon also tends to amplify my low mood making me very miserable. I know this is probably not how it works but it's as if it completely exhausts my store of serotonin leaving me feeling like a warmed over corpse.

I haven't tried ritalin but adderall likewise doesn't help me and neither does any other dopaminergic I have tried. I don't react well to dopaminergics or to Wellbutrin. They only give me more OCD and anxiety on top of my dysphoria. Dopaminergics are bad news for people with OCD or anxiety. We probably already have overactive dopaminergic pathways. Stablon also supposedly "increases dopamine", whatever that means, which may explain why we don't react well to that either.

[BioFreak]

Maybe it's the ritalin, being not strong enough for depression, or maybe it's that your depressions cause is not low dopamine. Have you tried increasing dopamine by other means, and did it have a positive effect for you?

Seems like OCD can be caused by low serotonin. By increasing dopamine, you should be decreasing serotonin. That could be the problem.

Edited by BioFreak, 27 December 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[dunbar]

Are you still on stablon? What are you taking now?

I cannot really say that wellbutrin made me worse. While I was taking it I wasn't doing that bad but my depression also depends on circumstances.
I may be doing so-so for a while and then all of a sudden it gets much worse again and this might have nothing to do with whatever I am currently taking
this makes it almost impossible to even tell if an AD works or not.
Also ritalin at least in moderate doses doesn't seem to make me more anxious. I dont know if it would make anxiety during an anxiety attack worse though.
I already tried celexa and remeron and both didn't work either. I'm running out of options.

@ biofreak

I only tried wellbutrin but I think this affects NE more than DA.
I think 30mg ritalin LA is already a pretty high dose. 40mg is the max dose which one can take at once.
50% of it is instantly released the other half a few hours later which means that 30mg ritalin LA = 15mg instant ritalin.
I was expecting to at least feel a bit more optimistic but I didn't.

Maybe stablon and ritalin also don't mix well. My doc said I can take both but who knows how they affect each other when they
both influence dopamine. This is pretty scary cause taking an antidepressant and not getting better already sucks but if at the
same time you must even be afraid that the antidepressant could make you even worse then this sucks even more.

Yes, this is something I also worried about cause I read that ritalin can lead to depression by lowering serotonin. This would
mean that someone who is already depressed should not even be put on ritalin-mono therapy.

I really dont know if the whole SSRE stuff is even right for me. Somehow the thought of being depleted of serotonin is scary.
I was also offered zoloft in the past but after reading the leaflet I was too afraid to take it cause it had a long list of side effects.

Edited by dunbar, 27 December 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[nowayout]

@dunbar, you seem similar to me, both in the nature of your sudden worsened depressions on top of your usual depression as well as the drugs you have failed.

As a data point, I have a similar reaction to Stablon, and I also failed remeron and wellbutrin. Agomelatine is like a sugar pill to me. Zoloft did nothing for me. IMO the side effects of SSRIs are just too serious for anyone who doesn't have completely unbearable depression to take them.

I haven't found anything that works. So if you do, please let us know.

[dunbar]

I also tried agomelatine and it did nothing except maybe help me sleep better but I need something which really works
against depression. Celexa didnt really have any side effects for me but also didn't work. But I also only took it 4 weeks then my doc
put me off it. Maybe 4 weeks was too short? But I remember that it also made me more tired which wasn't good.

I am also scared of snri (effexor,cymbalta) cause of the withdrawal issues which some people have. They seem more risky to me than
ssri. Since everybody reacts so different to ADs it seems unpredictable to me how someone might react to a drug. For one it might work
but not for others. I mean when I read what some people write about stablon then it sounds as if it's a magical instant antidepressant.
It's really strange how different these drugs affect people.

Since I dont want to take TCAs and MAOI because of the much bigger side effects there isn't that much left. I also don't want to get into antipsychotics
like abilify. This seems to dangerous to me.
I also can't imagine that an antidepressant can really change how I am. I have always been depressed and anxious. I cannot imagine anything else.

[BioFreak]

I really dont know if the whole SSRE stuff is even right for me. Somehow the thought of being depleted of serotonin is scary.
I was also offered zoloft in the past but after reading the leaflet I was too afraid to take it cause it had a long list of side effects.

It's all about balance. If you push serotonin high and dopamine low in the process, then you'll have all sorts of nasty side effects. For example, an ssri is a bad idea for me, because I am naturally low in dopamine. But if you are high in dopamine, and low in serotonin, getting the balance right would be of great benefit for you.

It's kind of a try and see if it makes you better or worse, and proceed from there. If ritalin makes you worse, maybe you should look in the opposite direction.

[dunbar]

I cant really say ritalin makes me worse but also not better. That's what dragged me down.
I was tested for adhd and my attention wasn't normal and I also thought that I have some symptoms of adhd but not all.
So my doc said I should try ritalin and see if it helps. I can't really say if it makes a huge difference in concentration.
But at least I thought that ritalin would also work as an antidepressant. My doc also told me that it can push you up and so on.
So far I only took it in small amounts between 5-15mg. But when I felt depressed I thought let's see if it makes me feel better at 30mg
and it didn't.
But I dont think that I am naturally high in dopamine I mean otherwise I'd not have adhd symptoms, would I?

It's just weird cause I read stuff from people who use adderall against depression and when they take it they feel really good but once
they run out of it they feel miserable again. But at least it works for their depression.

[nowayout]

Yeah as I said adderall doesn't help my depression at all so you are not the only one.

Depression is not a disease entity. It is a symptom (like, say, fever) that has many different cauaes. Every fever is not cured by penicillin. Likewise with depression.

The only class of drugs that so far gave helped my depression for short periods have been opioids. They jyst completely normalise me almist instantly. Unfortunately they are not sustainable, but it does make me wonder if some if us might gave something wrong with yhe way we produce and metsbolize endorphins.

Edited by nowayout, 27 December 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

The only class of drugs that so far gave helped my depression for short periods have been opioids. They jyst completely normalise me almist instantly. Unfortunately they are not sustainable, but it does make me wonder if some if us might gave something wrong with yhe way we produce and metsbolize endorphins.

You may wanna try to modulate the opioid system by other methods than direct agonism with narcotics.
- kappa-antagonism. SJW like stated above, and there was also a thread here about a group buy for a pharmaceutical kappa-antagonist. kappa is known for dysphoria, depression and fear.
- Enkephalinase-inhibitors, prevent the breakdown of endorphins: http://en.wikipedia....inase_inhibitor , Rhodiola has some similar mechanism as it raised enkephalin plasma levels in a study
- Bacopa has anti-depressant effect and modulates opioid-function
- perhaps even cholecystokinin-B antagonism as CCK acts as an anti-opioid

[BioFreak]

Also, check your thyroid levels (tsh, ft3, ft4, rt3, antibodies) to see if your thyroid could be the cause... if you haven't done so already. hypothyroid can also manifest in adhd like symptoms and depression etc.

[dunbar]

Hello,
my thyroid is being treated. I am on T4. I used to be on T3+T4 and was already hyperthyroid cause I was taking too much.
I was put on thyroid hormones cause I was latent hypo. My TSH was high but t3 and t4 were still normal.
Now I am only using T4 and my levels are relatively in the middle of the normal range. T3 could be higher though. TSH is at 0,4.
The doc I have now is against using T3. He only wants me to use T4. I dont know if this is optimal but I have no good thyroid doc
on my hands now.
However I dont think that thyroid hormones are the reason for me being depressed.
I have always had a tendency to be depressed since childhood but I am also depressed cause everything is really bad.
It's not just endogenous. If I was healthy and my situation was different I'd be much less depressed.
This is also why I am sceptical if antidepressants can help me at all. I mean imagine you're in war and lose everything then I bet
an antidepressant also couldn't make you feel happy again.
I bet most people would be depressed if they were me.

@ galaxyshock

The problem is that none of this extraordinary stuff will help me very much.
I mean my psychiatrist simply goes by the book. He doesn't consider supplements and he also surely won't
come up with anything experimental. I dont even know if he knows Enkephalinase-inhibitors or if he has used them.
If it doesn't exist as a pharmaceutical drug then I won't get it and I also can't go out on my own and medicate myself
I'm too anxious to do that cause then nobody can help me in case of side effects.

I am sure when I go back to my doc and tell him that stablon didn't work he will suggest another antidepressant
from his list or maybe he will also suggest that I stop antidepressants cause none worked.

[BioFreak]

Hello,
my thyroid is being treated. I am on T4. I used to be on T3+T4 and was already hyperthyroid cause I was taking too much.
I was put on thyroid hormones cause I was latent hypo. My TSH was high but t3 and t4 were still normal.
Now I am only using T4 and my levels are relatively in the middle of the normal range. T3 could be higher though. TSH is at 0,4.
The doc I have now is against using T3. He only wants me to use T4. I dont know if this is optimal but I have no good thyroid doc
on my hands now.
However I dont think that thyroid hormones are the reason for me being depressed.
I have always had a tendency to be depressed since childhood but I am also depressed cause everything is really bad.
It's not just endogenous. If I was healthy and my situation was different I'd be much less depressed.
This is also why I am sceptical if antidepressants can help me at all. I mean imagine you're in war and lose everything then I bet
an antidepressant also couldn't make you feel happy again.
I bet most people would be depressed if they were me.

if t3/4 don't make you feel better, then they are no option, of course. Antidepressants can't make you see a bad life as a good life(more like a "not that bad life"), but they should make you feel good enough that you have the energy to change your life. At least that's the goal. There is no problem in realizing when something is bad, and feeling bad about is is ok. But it's important that you have the energy to change your life, so you can feel much better... That's essentially what antidepressants should be about.

I also have a shitty life situation,which has been going on for decades, for the most part. I won't bore you with details. My main focus is to have the mental power to change what I can, and I'm sure life will feel better the more I change it. That should be your goal, because as you already mentioned, no drug can make you feel great about a shitty life. But they can help you getting the strength you need to change it.

If you lost everything, the only sane way out would be to rebuild. To work hard to get good stuff into your life, good people... Thats the ultimate goal and anything you can take should primarily help with that.

[nowayout]

I sympathize with the situational aspect of your depression. Mine is also to an extent situational. To some extent you are right, it is questionable whether it is either possible or even a good idea to treat a bad environment or situation with pills, although many people try, often because they see no other choice or even don't have the wherewithal to change things. But depression is sometimes useful if it spurs someone to change their situation. Too many people are sedating away the years of their youth with pills instead of trying to change things for the better.

Is there anything that you could do to "treat" your environment or situation instead of treating yourself? I know this is sometimes hard - I am kind of trapped in a dead end life too.

[dunbar]

Hello,
I wish I could just solve my issues. I wish I could feel like I have some control but I have no control.
For me even going outside is totally depressing cause of my eye floaters! This always feels like a punch in the stomach.
I cant deal with this. And I have many other sicknesses. And besides this my situation also sucks and is very dim.
I really wish there was hope but there isn't much hope. Being told stuff like just deal with it which I was told doesnt help me
at all. I cant just deal with it.
My issues are overwhelming. I could easily start 10 different threads about 10 different health issues which I have. It's impossible to deal with all of this. And my anxiety and ocd dont make it easier. I often feel like freaking out when I think about what could be wrong with me and not having a doctor who can diagnose me makes me feel damn lost.

Edited by dunbar, 27 December 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[BioFreak]

I hope you did not miss understand me. I didn't mean you just have to deal with it, I meant that its the purpose of antidepressants to make you able to deal with it, not make life shiny when in reality it is not. Believe me, if you are depressed and anxious, no one can tell you just to deal with it... its just not that simple.

I had massive floaters with the use of 5-htp and tyrosine, until I figured out that my body needed much more sulfur while using these supps(in the form of cysteine and n-acetyl-cysteine). Maybe it helps you.

Also, it would be a good idea to list all your health problems, maybe they are having common causes that can be addressed...

[nowayout]

I had a retinal detachment with lots and lots of floaters in both eyes. It is not nice but (1) over time they tend to settle out of sight and therefore lessen (2) you get used to them and tend not to think of them so much after a while, and (3) in the worst case you always have the future option of having the optical fluid surgically replaced and floater free vision restored.

So I have to say that no, floaters are not a reason for my depression, at least not any longer. The fact that it is something that you cannot let go and obsess about to the point of not even wanting to go outside points to an organic cause for your depression, though, which may possibly be helped by drug treatment, if only you can find the right drug.

But the fact that you do obsess over things like this tends to suggest to me that dopaminergic drugs such as ritalin would be totally the wrong direction for you. Dopaminergic drugs tend to increase obsessive behaviour including obsessive worry and intrusive rumination. If the theory is true that stablon works by being pro-dopaminergic, then stablon is probably also not a good choice.

Edited by nowayout, 28 December 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[dunbar]

My therapist back then only told me that I have to accept being sick. That was all he had to say about my sicknesses.
This is crap imo. Do people go to the university for years to throw out such glorious advice? Argh.

I have a very low opinion of therapists. I think most of them suck and also don't care they only care about their money.
How shall such a person help you who doesn't even care and who cannot put herself in your shoes at all?
I dont think I will go to a therapist again at all.

Did the NAC reduce your floaters? I take 200mg NAC every now and then.

I have a thread where i listed all my issues: http://www.longecity...is/#entry625434
But I doubt that there is common cause. Even if there is one doctors cannot find it.

@ nowayout

I dont know. I simply cant deal with things like that. I am literally afraid of going outside and seeing the floaters cause they make me feel so terrible and I am not
alone. I have been to floater forums where people are exactly the same and dont go outside anymore.

What would you suggest I should try? I mean there isn't very much left. And even the ssri have really dangerous side effects. Sertraline is an ssri I could never take
cause the side effects list is so long. I'd live in fear all day if I went on this and check my body all the time.
The stablon side effects list is like a walk in the park compared to sertraline.

[nowayout]

Stop going to floater forums. The internet is unfortunately a bad place for people with certain mental illnesses, especially obsessives. Places like that amplify behaviors that are ridiculous and self-destructive (listen to yourself!) and make them seem acceptable. They also tend to create a helpless victim mentality.

Edited by nowayout, 28 December 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Stop going to floater forums. The internet is unfortunately a bad place for people with certain mental illnesses, especially obsessives. Places like that amplify behaviors that are ridiculous and self-destructive (listen to yourself!) and make them seem acceptable. They also tend to create a helpless victim mentality.

+1

[dunbar]

I feel like a helpless victim.
I bet having low T also doesn't really help with that.

I know that the internet isn't really good for me but without it I'd feel even more alone.

[dunbar]

I feel really miserable.
I spent the whole day online reading up about diseases and vitamins and risks of vitamins with the result that I'm more worried and confused than before.
It's like no matter what you read about there are always different opinions and then I don't know who's right. Maybe everything I thought I knew is wrong.
I cant count the days where I am glued to the computer and read up on stuff which in the end never leads to anything. Now I feel totally upset and it's like
my mind is racing. I just want to sit in a dark room now. I am so sick of it. I know that this stuff isn't good and I still get caught up in it again and again.
I mean what shall I do? When you're sick and don't know what you have then you end up reading about all kinds of possible diseases but it only leads
to more worrying and no real solutions.
Usually once I'm caught in front of the computer I also cannot stop. I usually sit there until the early morning and then go to bed feeling like crap.

Edited by dunbar, 29 December 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Max Headroom Incident]

Depression has many potential causes, some physiological, some social, some related to early childhood trauma and so on. I respond well to stimulants AND Stablon but get zero benefit from SSRI's or SNRI's. Might as well be a sugar pill. TCA's make my depression infinitely worse, as do alcohol & benzos. It's certainly possible that Stablon is making your depression worse. Listen to your body. If something doesn't work--or worse--aggravates your condition, stop taking it.

That said, Ritalin isn't necessarily the most "euphoric" stimulant out there. Many people say it has too many side effects and a bad comedown compared to things like Adderall. Even amphetamines aren't a permanent solution because of tolerance. Using amphetamine for too long often has a paradoxical effect of causing dysphoria and inability to experience pleasure, so beware. I have to change my stimulants around every month or so to prevent bad things. Will be trying Ritalin for the first time tomorrow after a successful few weeks on phentermine.

TL;DR - Depression treatment is a series of trial-and-error steps and missteps. Drugs and supplements can only bring you so far; lifestyle and behavioral changes should not be neglected.