9 replies to this topic

[protoject]

I was wondering if anyone here knows of any kava suppliers who have been proven to be reliable in terms of QUALITY... based on assesment done by either regulatory bodies or 3rd party consumer advocates.

Looks like in the supplement market in general there are a lot of impure products. With Kava, I've heard rumors that some suppliers aren't using pure kava, or use the wrong part of the plant. I'm not actually sure on the veracity of these claims. But I ordered once from a couple of suppliers, who i will not name, but I swear that when i tried their products I got adverse effects from even the smallest dose. It was exactly like getting a hangover. Id assume my liver was messed with.

Recently I tried a storebought supplement and didn't get those toxic effects, but the supplement is a lot weaker and more expensive obviously.

Anyway I want to try different brands but I'm wondering if there's any way to verify the quality. For example, a supplier who has its products tested, and/or its facility checked by a third party to ensure proper procedures are taking place (correct parts of plant being used, clean facility, correct plant is being used, etc)

Any ideas?

Hopefully I'll get an answer, but anyone with extensive anecdotal experiences can chime in too...

Edited by protoject, 10 January 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[chemicalambrosia]

Kava is effective for helping me sleep, but I've tried several kinds and gotten very bad side effects from all of them(terrible stomach problems, and a hangover/sickness if I took a lot). There is nothing worse than finally falling into a restful sleep only to be wake up to have to run to the bathroom. My guess is that you are just similar to me in that you are having a bad reaction to kava in general. I don't think quality is the issue. FYI, I tried herb pharm extract, wakacon bulk kava, and pills of a brand I don't remember. All were reputable brands with good reviews. I think, unfortunately, that you are chasing something that will be a dead end for you.

[protoject]

Thanks for the advice. Well, I hope you're wrong anyway. I don't take very large doses at the time , i.e. I dont try to get high or drunk on it , just for the record... the pills seem to be doing okay but like you said, I still get some side effects. for example one day I had the shits--- not sure if it was from kava or not but i almost never get the shits. I didn't get the shits ever again since then (days) even though I've still been on it. At times I get these wierd stomach/ intenstinal cramps that feel like trapped gas or something. Nothing too major yet but slightly annoying. no vomitting. Gladly haven't had much of a hangover type feeling yet. . . but again could just be chalked up to such a low dosage

[Dorian Grey]

I would be very careful with kava... It's notorious for damaging livers!
http://www.scienceda...80222111446.htm

Geeze, scroll down and look at the case histories here: http://livertox.nih.gov/KavaKava.htm

Case 1. Acute liver failure treated with liver transplantation after kava use.

A 22 year old woman presented with a 3 week history of nausea and fatigue, followed by jaundice 4 months after starting kava kava (240 mg daily)

Bottom line... Transplanted/died 6 months later.

Case 2. Death from acute liver failure after kava kava use.

a 56 year old Australian woman who had been taking a kava product for three months developed nausea and jaundice

Bottom line... Transplanted/died without leaving hospital.

Case 3. Acute hepatitis attributed to kava.

A 55 year old man using kava extract (250 mg capsule, 3 times daily) for 2 weeks began to experience weakness, fatigue and right upper quadrant discomfort. He continued taking the extract for 3 months when he developed jaundice.

This guy lived to tell about his kava adventure. I don't suppose he recommends it too highly.

Edited by synesthesia, 17 January 2014 - 04:56 AM.

[jonnyD]

Afaik are these Kava liver damaging stories bullshit (made by corrupt pharma lobby guys or something like that).
I do not remember what happened exactly but i am pretty sure that kava is not toxic.

[Dorian Grey]

According to the link: http://livertox.nih.gov/KavaKava.htm

Apparently many fail to have (serious) adverse reactions...

"Based upon reported cases, the estimated frequency of clinically apparent liver injury due to kava is less than 1:1,000,000 daily doses. However, spontaneous reporting is believed to capture less than 1% of severe adverse events from the use of dietary supplements."

The "one in a million" statistic may be deceiving, as many may buy a bottle of kava, have GI problems that may actually be related to liver inflammation and throw the rest of the bottle away without ever seeing a doctor or reporting their adverse event. Many doctors fail to report adverse events too, but may advise their patients to cease and desist with supplements when they present with mystery symptoms while admitting supplement use.

I imagine it would take a pretty dedicated kava fan to continue to hammer down pills once they started feeling truly ill from them and press on to destroy their livers. Still, not a risk I'd want to take for the potential reward kava offers.

[Blankspace]

Thanks for the advice. Well, I hope you're wrong anyway. I don't take very large doses at the time , i.e. I dont try to get high or drunk on it , just for the record... the pills seem to be doing okay but like you said, I still get some side effects. for example one day I had the shits--- not sure if it was from kava or not but i almost never get the shits. I didn't get the shits ever again since then (days) even though I've still been on it. At times I get these wierd stomach/ intenstinal cramps that feel like trapped gas or something. Nothing too major yet but slightly annoying. no vomitting. Gladly haven't had much of a hangover type feeling yet. . . but again could just be chalked up to such a low dosage

In regards to toxicity, you might find this paper useful:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3085297/

Some quotes:

"Pipermethysticine (PM) is a toxic alkaloid present in kava leaves and stem peelings, which can contaminate kava products during high production and/or poor quality control [10]. HepG2 human hepatoma cells exposed to 100μM PM for 24 hours showed 90% loss of cell viability, with 65% loss of viability with 50μM PM due to disruption of mitochondrial function and consequent apoptosis [11]. Fischer-334 rats given 10mg/kg PM daily by oral gavage for two weeks demonstrated adaptive changes to oxidative stress such as a significant increase in hepatic glutathione and cytosolic superoxide dismutase (Cu/ZnSOD) [12]. Thus, PM is a potential cause of kava hepatotoxicity although it was not detected in any samples in a recent study using products available on the German market"

"The chemical content of kava products and hence potential for adverse effects vary according to plant age, part used, cultivar, geographical location, and growth conditions. In the Kava Act 2002 [17] the government of Vanuatu classified the different cultivars of kava as noble (traditional social beverage with long history of safe use), medicinal (used for specific therapeutic effects), two days (can cause strong side effects such as nausea due to high levels of the kavalactone dihydromethysticin and banned for export), and wichmannii (which also induce strong side effects and are banned from export)"

"Kava dermopathy has been well documented among Pacific Islanders [26] and is a reversible condition characterised by dry scaly yellow skin covering the palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and back [27]. It is speculated to have a link to cholesterol metabolism and hepatotoxicity due to the presence of jaundice [28]."

"Four human phenotypes for CYP2D6 activity (ultrarapid, efficient, intermediate, and poor) are defined according to debrisoquine metabolism. The two Europeans with kava-related hepatotoxicity were phenotyped as poor metabolisers according to CYP2D6 activity [38]. It is known that 12%–21% of Caucasians are poor metabolisers compared to less than 1% for Asians/Pacific Islanders, which may contribute to the lower incidence of kava hepatotoxicity in the Pacific [39]. Caucasians also have a higher frequency of ultrarapid metabolisers compared to Asians/Pacific Islanders (1% to 5% versus 0% to 2%). These individuals could experience adverse reactions following a burst of reactive kava metabolites."

[Nobility]

If you search on eBay for example, you can find sellers that are from the island itself, and sell it directly (What I mean is, your buying it off the folks on the island, your getting the best quality and what not.

[protoject]

"Pipermethysticine (PM) is a toxic alkaloid present in kava leaves and stem peelings.....

"Four human phenotypes for CYP2D6 activity (ultrarapid, efficient, intermediate, and poor) are defined according to debrisoquine metabolism. The two Europeans with kava-related hepatotoxicity were phenotyped as poor metabolisers according to CYP2D6 activity [38]. It is known that 12%–21% of Caucasians are poor metabolisers compared to less than 1% for Asians/Pacific Islanders, which may contribute to the lower incidence of kava hepatotoxicity in the Pacific [39]. Caucasians also have a higher frequency of ultrarapid metabolisers compared to Asians/Pacific Islanders (1% to 5% versus 0% to 2%). These individuals could experience adverse reactions following a burst of reactive kava metabolites.

I would be very careful with kava... It's notorious for damaging livers!
http://www.scienceda...80222111446.htm

Geeze, scroll down and look at the case histories here: http://livertox.nih.gov/KavaKava.htm

Wow Blankspace,, interesting info explaining some of the possible reasons why the 'natural' use of kava over centuries has shown no harm in Pacific Islanders specifically.... I'm a whitie so it might be more harmful for me.

Thanks a lot guys. Now out of curiosity has anyone seen evidence that the lateral roots would cause the same sorts of issues? It appears from my limited study that the issues arise mostly from using the Stems and Leaves. Of course there is still an issue , because how can you trust the supplier only used lateral roots?? recently I got some "waka grade" kava, on its way to my house, the supplier is in Hawaii, is FDA inspected and regulated, and claims to only use lateral roots and nothing else..

[KC_in_SD]

If you're in the U.S., nakamalathome.com  has great product. Their "stone" variety is superior. 100% lateral roots from Vanuatu.

I did not like their Chief's Jungle or Wow varieties at ALL. Very different profiles those last two have and I did not like the experience at all.

Stone, however, is wonderful.