154 replies to this topic

[Rocket]

I have suffered from sleeping issues for about 15 years, and it's such a horribly stupid thing to be afflicted with... But without going off into a tangent, supplements that help me are phenibut and bought as a research chemical, pramipexole. Both need to be cycled in my opinion and used cautiously. Taken together on the same night has yielded good results.

[Area-1255]

I have suffered from sleeping issues for about 15 years, and it's such a horribly stupid thing to be afflicted with... But without going off into a tangent, supplements that help me are phenibut and bought as a research chemical, pramipexole. Both need to be cycled in my opinion and used cautiously. Taken together on the same night has yielded good results.

Well, dopamine drugs do increase GABA release.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1977500

 

C R Acad Sci III. 1990;311(8):295-300.

[D2 dopaminergic receptor activation enhances the spontaneous release of 3H-GABA in the prefrontal cortex of rats, in vitro. The facilitating role of D1 dopaminergic receptors].

[Article in French]

Retaux S1, Besson MJ, Penit-Soria J.

Author information

 

Abstract

The effects of three D2 dopaminergic agonists on the spontaneous release of 3H-GABA have been studied on rat prefrontal cortical slices. LY171555 (10(-9) M), RU24926 (3 x 10(-8) M) and lisuride (10(-7) M) respectively enhanced the spontaneous release by 25, 20.5 and 23%. These effects were totally reversed by the D2 antagonist sulpiride (10(-5) M). Furthermore, subliminar concentration of RU24926 (10(-9) M) and of the D1 agonist SKF38393 (10(-6) M) induced a clear enhancement of the spontaneous release of 3H-GABA when they were superfused simultaneously. Our results suggest that in the prefrontal cortex, the spontaneous release of 3H-GABA is under an activatory D2 dopaminergic control. The activation of D1 receptors seems to have an enabling effect on this regulation.

PMID:   1977500   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16075286

 

 

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2005 Nov;182(4):516-26. Epub 2005 Oct 19.

Prefrontal GABA levels in cocaine-dependent subjects increase with pramipexole and venlafaxine treatment.

Streeter CC1, Hennen J, Ke Y, Jensen JE, Sarid-Segal O, Nassar LE, Knapp C, Meyer AA, Kwak T, Renshaw PF, Ciraulo DA.

Author information

 

Erratum in

• Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2006 Apr;185(3):404.

Abstract

RATIONALE:

There is evidence that prefrontal lobe GABA levels are low in cocaine-dependent (CD) individuals, and treatment with GABA agonists decreases cocaine self-administration.

OBJECTIVES:

The aim of the study is to measure changes in GABA levels in CD subjects at baseline and after 8 weeks of treatment with pramipexole, venlafaxine, or placebo.

METHODS:

CD subjects enrolled in a treatment trial for cocaine dependence were recruited for this proton (1H) magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) study. GABA levels in the prefrontal lobe were measured before and after treatment.

RESULTS:

Mean percentage changes in GABA levels were as follows: pramipexole +17.0+/-28.0%, venlafaxine +13.0+/-11.0%, and placebo -2.1+/-19.5%. Pramipexole-treated subjects had significantly increased brain GABA levels compared to placebo (p=0.031). Venlafaxine treatment was nonsignificantly associated with increased GABA levels compared to placebo (p=0.16). The overall statistical model for the effect of drug treatment vs placebo on brain GABA levels, including adjustment for baseline levels, was highly significant (p=0.002). Despite significant changes in GABA levels, there were no significant differences in the number of urine samples positive for cocaine metabolites.

CONCLUSIONS:

This study demonstrates that 1H MRS can measure changes in GABA levels following pharmacologic treatment. The increase in GABA levels, although significant, is modest compared to other MRS studies of depression or epilepsy associated with clinical improvements. The failure to see larger increases in GABA levels and an associated reduction in cocaine consumption may reflect the relatively low doses of medication used.

[limited]

I also tried melatonin its not amazing .is there anything that helpa u stay asleep?

[baptized_in_flames]

5htp, 5mg melatonin, and magnesium with calcium does the trick for me. I will occasionally toss in Valerian root as well, if I  need to sleep in. Otherwise I omit it. It makes me lazy in the am.

 

 

[limited]

Magnesium and calcium u say?...

[baptized_in_flames]

Relaxes the nervous system, improves sleep, makes your body produce more natural IGF1.

 

[limited]

Thankyou ive tried this and it worked

[baptized_in_flames]

 

Thankyou ive tried this and it worked

 

You're welcome.

[Dan1976]

AMPK activators such as Alpha Lipoic Acid could help you sleep

 

AMPK is a signal which indicates low energy status inside the cells. Activating AMPK has a lot of metabolic and longevity benefits. The effect of activating AMPK depends on tissue type - for example in muscle cells it causes glucose uptake and in adipocytes it causes lipolysis. Activating AMPK in brain cells can make you either hungry or very, very sleepy.

 

So, an AMPK activator taken in the evening could help you sleep. A few substances which activate AMPK are:

 

- Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA or R-ALA)

- AiCAR (used in cycling for doping - https://en.wikipedia...iki/Acadesine )which is different from ALCAR (acetyl-l-carnitine, an unrelated substance)

- GW-501516 (which is also a PPAR-delta agonist and could induce cancer if taken in high doses https://en.wikipedia...wiki/GW501516 )

 

I have tried both ALA and GW and both make me extremely sleepy.

 

100 mg of ALA makes me extremely tired and sleepy. It helps me sleep. Lots of other people on the internet complain that ALA is making them sleepy. We can use this effect to our advantage.

 

20 mg of GW made me extremely sleepy.. for 3 days in a row!

 

I also have some AiCAR powder, I will try it and report back.

 

LEF has just released a herbal AMPK Activator consisting of some herbs I know nothing about. I have no idea if it works or if it can be used for inducing sleep. https://www.lef.org/.../AMPK-Activator

 

 

 

Another supplement I would like to try for sleep is D-Limonene - it is an adenosine A(2A) agonist which also helps your liver and works against heartburn (esophagitis pain caused by stomach acid reflux) and also has some anti-cancer properties. Some people on the Internet commented that limonene makes them feel tired.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21134357

 

 

 

My current sleep stack:

- ALA 100 mg

- Taurine 1 g

- Inositol 1 g

- Vitamin B6 50 mg (it seems to help me relax)

 

 

Edited by Dan1976, 13 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[jafuga]

melatonin = KO

Edited by jafuga, 13 January 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[HoldingTheFaith]

Taurine did nothing for me, took an average of 8 grams per night for like a month. ALA I haven´t tried, but overall research shows it is a great supp. inositol could be helpful.

 

More supplements to waste money in I guess. lol 

 

For the record, Aswagandha and Bacopa both are worthless for my sleep problems so far. I have tons of Ashw though, so will give it a chronic shot and see what it does (is neurogenic = awesome). These things might take time.

 

That LEF supp has basically Gynostemma which is an herb you better get in bulk and take as a tea. Rose hips ditto except the tea part. Some people report better sleep on Gynostemma aka Jiaogulan, I tried an extract, it was useless, stupid... infuriating XD Try herbs in bulk IMO and better in infusion. if I lived in America I would be an enthusiatic consumer of Mountain Rose herbs and others, they have all of these at very good prices.

 

I will update if any of the sleep drugs I will be trying in my desperation brings back some of that precious refreshing sleep from our golden youth. I know drugs are basically the devil but this is just a temporary experiment of sorts, I plan to heal my insomnia naturally/holistically.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 13 January 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[HoldingTheFaith]

Clonidine. It's an alpha 2 agonist which is a negative feedback receptor that reduces the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline. I tried dozens of pills and supplements to beat my insomnia before that finally worked.

 

http://link.springer...1007/BF00562444

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7117387

 

Supress REM to some extent, increase SWS to some extent, you have healed depression pharmacologically.

 

I will be trying Clonidine soon.

[Area-1255]

melatonin = KO

Especially in conjunction with an anti-histamine.

[limited]

Ko?

[Area-1255]

Ko?

Knockout. -_-

[limited]

Ok

[HoldingTheFaith]

lol

 

Anyway, I will be popping some Gabapentin first time in a few minutes, and will keep trying drugs until I find one that enhances sleep, particularly antidepressants since I obviously have depression. The drug avenue opens for me after a phenomenal failure with everything natural or "energetic". If I don´t improve my sleep in a few months I constantly think and say I would end my life. I havent´t slept well in 4 years aproximately and every day is slightly worse in areas like libido and vitality. So lets get drugged up!

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 20 January 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

 

Clonidine. It's an alpha 2 agonist which is a negative feedback receptor that reduces the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline. I tried dozens of pills and supplements to beat my insomnia before that finally worked.

 

http://link.springer...1007/BF00562444

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7117387

 

Supress REM to some extent, increase SWS to some extent, you have healed depression pharmacologically.

 

I will be trying Clonidine soon.

 

 

Can you elaborate on your statement? Why is changing sleep architecture in this way sufficient for curing depression?

[HoldingTheFaith]

Not sufficient, but crucial. If a drug is able to do that, I would be satisfied with the pharmaceutical approach. I am not expecting a drug to do what succesful social interaction and correct life choices do: give you happiness and a sense of calm. Nor I am expecting a drug to stop negative thoughts and rumination, that probably only goes away with the above and hard work, but it maybe can temporally counteract the deleterious effects of being sad and loopy, which in broad terms means dreaming too much, and not very pleasant dreams as they deal with feelings of frustration and defeat. This model proposed by some psychs is solid and confirmed by my experience: I get dreams too early, too frequent, and they tend to loop about unresolved conflicts of the past (since I don´t precisely have such a dynamic life right now). A large part of this IMO is what causes unrefreshing sleep.

 

So what is the mechanism? Simple, you torture yourself in the waking hours with a collection of memories and the negative "hypothesis" and "morals of the story" that can be drawn from these; plus the negative thoughts that are produced with "in the now" as more negative experiences reinforce a crooked perception. This is called rumination. Now, what is fascinating (and horrifying) is that such a caged-by-his-own-mind individual, doesn´t get spared the torment during sleep, but it goes on, maybe in a more potent setting, when the ghosts of the subconscious take what look like real shapes and fool us to suffer. This accounts for the decreased REM latency, more frequent REM episodes and enhanced REM phasic activity/density.

 

http://www.sciencedi...087079212001207

Excerpt:

REM sleep seems to be specifically involved in emotional memory and appears to facilitate the consolidation of

memories with negative valence.204,205 To date numerous investigations have begun to test a selective REM-dependent hypothesis

of affective human memory consolidation based on the consideration that both sleep and emotion modulate processes of memory

consolidation.204,206 The actual model of sleep-dependent emotional memory processing is the “sleep to forget and sleep to

remember” hypothesis.207 When formed, a newly encoded “emotionalememory” is created in a milieu of high adrenergic

tone, it results in an associated affective “blanket.” With multiple iterations of sleep, particularly REM sleep, memory, contained

within that affective experience strengthens overnight(s), resulting in improved memory for that event, the autonomic tone “enveloped”

around the memory becomes gradually ameliorated, leading to emotional forgetting. The neuroanatomical, neurophysiological

and neurochemical conditions of REM sleep might offer a unique biological state in which to achieve both a balanced neural potentiation

of the informational core of emotional experiences, the memory, and also depotentiate and ultimately ameliorate the

autonomic arousing load originally acquired at the time of learning, the emotion.207,208 Neurochemically, levels of limbic and forebrain

acetylcholine (ACh) are markedly elevated during REM sleep.209 Considering the known importance of ACh in the long-term

consolidation of emotional learning,201 the pro-cholinergic REM sleep state may result in a selective facilitation of affective

memories, similar to that reported using experimental manipulations of ACh.210 Thus, one of the most intriguing hypotheses of

emotional brain processing is the “REM sleep hypothesis of emotional memory processing” that ascribes to REM sleep the

crucial role in the affective modulation of human brain function. This model predicts that a pathological increase in REM, as seen in

depression,13,14 may disproportionately amplify the strength of negative memories, so much that it would create a perceived

autobiographical history dominated by an excess of negative memories.

 

 

 

Additionally, I suppose some drugs can help you achieve satisfying social interaction, less impulsiveness, and help with "negative loops". There is plenty of time to experiment.

 

Besides drugs, and probably more important, one needs to drastically change his life and thus his perspective, but personally I´d need better sleep for that. If your waking life reinforce your depressed state (a "depressing life"), during sleep this will consolidate further as your brain-computer tries to deal with all the emotional debris.

 

PD: I wonder what "Enjoying the show" means o_O

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 21 January 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Harmen]

Hi, if one says depression I always think hypothyroid. If someone says adrenal fatigue I think hypothyroid.

 

Hypothyroidism produces very bad sleep and adrenal exhaustion (as in abnormal cortisol production).

 

Hypothyroidism is often missed by regular medicine, there is still a lot of discussion about the usefulness value of the TSH marker. See http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/for more info on the subject. This is the most comprehensive site and most others are wrong.

 

As long as a hypothyroid patient (which often he/she doesn't know) doesn't get his thyroid right his adrenal won't repair and his sleep will be bad.

 

If you have multiple signs of hypothyroidism (you can find it on the site mentioned) I would suggest you start the iodine protocol by Dr. brownstein. It is essentially a bromide and fluoride detox (yes, I never thought that I was going to say this). Iodine is considered toxic by mainstream medicine but that is based on very thin research.

 

A perfect article with all link to research and stuff.

http://www.stoptheth...odine-protocol/

I think the morning temperature is most important for diagnosing hypothyroidism.

 

I know it is a lot more supplements to the mix but you won't need sleep supplements if your body is working right eh?! Fundamental functions before band aids.
 

My results with the protocol:

I got my friend of 187 mcg synthroid for over two years now and he has more energy and is much feeling better than on synthroid.

I got my mom at age 60 to improve her energy levels beyond the level that she was 30 (!!)

 

 

[HoldingTheFaith]

I am aware of the stopthethyroiodmadness page and the Iodine theme. However I never had the guts or desperation to try it.

 

How much Iodoral/Lugol´s have your friend and mother taken? Haven´t you tried this miracle protocol yourself? Why?

 

I have depression, I am negative, obsessive, had some very bad experiences and chronic stress and as a result I am depressed. It gives you bad dreams and less deep sleep essentially which is exactly what I experience.

 

In addition tests showed two years ago severe adrenal exhaustion (low steroid adrenals) and some thyroid problem (less severe). Which has been very tragic is how every expensive attempt to treat these things have failed miserably, leading me to depression and leaky gut again.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 21 January 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Harmen]

I took it too but I don't have these clear cut results: I took it for chronic fatigue and I still have chronic fatigue. But I do think it is the most important factor for getting out of chronic fatigue / fybromyalgia.

 

We all started really low 300 mcg of lugol's. Worked up to 50 mg a day. If you go to fast you will overload your detoxification systems with too much bromide and fluoride and you will feel ill, depressed and apathetic.

 

My friend immediately noticed hyperthyroid symptoms and with every increase of lugol's he had to lower his levothyroxine. We both went too fast sometimes, it makes you ill. Go slow and you won't have these troubles like my mom did (patience comes with age some say). Even when my friend went up from 40 mg to 50 mg he had to stop the last bit of medication. The is in line with the statements of Dr. Brownstein and other iodine researchers.

 

He is now free of medication for 2 years now.

 

For me, the first thing to experience from the iodine is restoration of my sleep and day an night rhythm.

 

I am sorry, I do not have double blinded RCT's for you but I think iodine deficiency is as widespread like vitamin d deficiency. If you want more information or experiences I suggest you join a few of the iodine groups on facebook or join the iodine group on yahoo groups.

By the way I read a lot of sex related posts in this thread, I don't know if you watch it but porn is like cocaine. It can be really nice but it is really addictive. Check http://yourbrainonporn.com/and for a forum yourbrainrebalanced.

[HoldingTheFaith]

Thank you for this information. I will probably try it along with a few more things. 

 

Vitamin D never did anything for me, even while I was severely defficient in tests. I tried a couple brands and even cod liver oil, maybe didn´t have luck choosing brands, or maybe there is something hindering my absorption or something.

 

Is your sleep refreshing again? How were your sleep problems prior Iodine?

 

Yeah strangely enough even while I failed over the years to stop watching porn (I never was addicted though as I am a sensitive person and never liked all the rough and crude stuff) over time I didn´t get impotent (which porn does) but something curious and fortunate happened: pornography stopped arousing me anymore, BUT real women kept being arousing.

 

I think I was lucky to have this insane libido that survived to some extent even severe dopamine desensitization from years of watching pornography every other day and a penis injury I got from penis enlargamente exercises (again a result of porn which is in mind a very destructive thing).

 

Sooo what happens is that I failed at stopping watching porn, but my body won the battle by making porn less and less enjoyable. It is a matter of time for me to stop watching it alltogether.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 22 January 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Dan1976]

Last night I have tried pregabalin (Lyrica) 150 mg for sleep. This is the starting dose recommended by the manufacturer. I sleep like a log and have problems waking up. After waking up I feel energetic, no brain fog, no other problems.

 

I think the dose is too high, I will try a lower dose next time.

 

 

Here is a case study of a slightly depressed woman who had treatment-resistant insomnia and who responded very well to pregabalin. The article doesn't say anything about the starting dose - only that the dose was progressively increased to 300 mg.

 

 

Treatment-resistant insomnia treated with pregabalin

 

Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23771546

Free full text: http://www.europeanr...s/1552-1554.pdf

 

We report a case with refractory insomnia. We diagnosed her case as depression with high levels of anxiety, weakness, with diminished ability to think or concentrate and with a sensory-motor disorder. Although this last symptom was very distressing, it did not satisfy the criteria for RLS (Restless Legs Syndrome). After treatment with paroxetine (20 mg) and zolpidem (10 mg), anxiety and mood deflection were attenuated. Nevertheless, a mild depression, an intermittent awakening (fragmentation of the sleep-wake rhythm) and subsyndromal RLS persisted. Her resistant insomnia was treated with benzodiazepine sleeping drugs (triazolam 0.25 mg, lorazepam 2.5 mg, fluorazepam 30 mg) with only partial insomnia remission, antidepressants (trazodone 150 mg RP, mirtazapine 15-30 mg, agomelatine 50 mg) and antipsychotics (levomepromazine 25 mg, zuclopentixol 25 mg) without results. Her intractable insomnia was markedly responsive to pregabalin without side effects. Our hypothesis is that the therapy with pregabalin may be indicated for resistant insomnia associated with subsyndromal RLS, even when the latter does not satisfy fully all the criteria for diagnosis.

 

 

[HoldingTheFaith]

Gabapentin was a big fail. I should have asked for Pregabalinto thedoc, darn!

 

Amitryptiline seems to be being well tolerated, will increase dosage.

 

They say that although Pregabalin improves sleep, tolerance (and dependence) will build.

 

Besides I don´t like the idea of a drug that just enhances sleep without taking care of the deeper cause. I am somewhat lucky to know the or one of the deeper causes of my insomnia: depression. So thats why I need REM-supressing antidepressants, I think.

[TheFountain]

Blocking Cortisol production for about 8 hours with Holy basil (Tulsi) tea. 

[karen7]

Oatmeal and magnesium.

[Harmen]

Epsom salt footbath is a great addition to my knock out protocol. I took a daily dose of 300 mg of magnesium from malate (quite well absorbed) but the footbath is doing wonders.

 

I take 2 mg melatonin (50% time released)

50 mg Valerian + 50 mg passionflower

3 gr glycine

100 mg R-ALA (makes me sleepy - not sure if this is a good idea though, heavy metal chelation during night-time). 

 

This combo makes me sleep very well the first part of the night. But usually I get awake at 5 or 6 and toss around for an hour. I eat something (hungry...), sometimes I get some valerian as well.

Yesterday I bought an earthing unit to ground me during sleep. I am curious if it will help, it was only 18€ (bracelet).

But if something really bothers me than this combination does nothing but makes me very sleepy. I won't sleep at all.

I use EMDR as a technique to get rid of stuff. But this is a heavy tool and can alleviate conditions as bad as PTSS. But you can also use it for smaller trauma. I tend to accumulate trauma very quickly due chronic fatigue. I feel very vulnerable because of this. But ask your therapist how to apply self- EMDR.

 

 

Edited by Harmen, 12 February 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[dudmuck]

Being hungry when waking is typical sign of postprandial glycemia.  The best action is avoiding sugars and simple carbs, and improving blood sugar regulation with whey protein and perhaps more vinegar to a lesser extent.

Also the liver is heavily implicated with such a condition.  I've found milk thistle to be helpful, considering the liver is the 2nd most important organ in the body.  But it requires 3 weeks continuous use to notice anything, because it takes that long to propagate thru the liver.  If more cleansing is needed after those weeks, dandelion root has been shown to aid in that regard.

 

After all that, vitex (chaste berry) has been shown to alter the hormonal balance for sleep maintenance. One study shown it had improved melatonin production, but perhaps it may have altered other hormones for longer sleep.

 

Other things to consider is high ammonia, which is alleviated by taking ornithine at night.  Arginine/citrulline are usually considered for daytime use.

[Junk Master]

After a week of 15 mg Ibutamoren at night, I can definitively say it has improved the quality of my sleep substantially.   As a longtime sleep apnea patient (CPAP) I've become aware of the symptoms of sleep deprivation and irregular sleep architecture (thanks Ambien...); and, with Ibutamoren I've noticed an increase in REM activity, and sleep onset.  I wake up feeling like I did when I first began using a CPAP machine...brain fog lifted.