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Raynaud's phenomenon

raynauds vasodilation circulation endothelial function

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#1 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:58 PM


https://lh6.googleus...0208_171858.jpg

I'm at the point where anecdotes are wanted...
GPs are dismissive, and often become little more helpful than legal drug dealers. That's fine (nifedipine), but I'd rather not. Piracetam is a safer choice, the cited doses(1) are above the threshold I'm willing to consider (though I may be tempted).

Believe it or not, I'm using hand-warmers (hot hands) in my shoes and pockets. Otherwise, it's extremely difficult (personally and interpersonally) to get through a day during the cold winter here in New England.

Any success stories out there?
Thanks in advance for sharing...your feedback is appreciated.

1. Moriau M, Crasborn L, Lavenne-pardonge E, Von frenckell R, Col-debeys C. Platelet anti-aggregant and rheological properties of piracetam. A pharmacodynamic study in normal subjects. Arzneimittelforschung. 1993;43(2):110-8. PMID: 8457235

Edited by caliban, 17 April 2018 - 07:38 AM.
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#2 jadamgo

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:04 AM

What piracetam dose are you nervous about?

#3 niner

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:28 AM

Here's another thread about Raynaud's, if you haven't seen it. Piracetam is discussed, and other things. For the past couple years I've been using toe warmers in the winter. I have some kind of peripheral circulation issue, but it only seems to be in my feet.

Let me know if you want me to append this thread to the earlier one.

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#4 Sciencyst

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:49 AM

I too, suffer from Raynaud's. Or at least when I am not on an SSRI. When I am on an SSRI (zoloft or prozac) my symptoms nearly completely vanish, even in freezing weather. IIRC they may have indirect effects on calcium channels or calcium absorption which may affect symptoms going by the fact that calcium channel blockers are apparently first-line treatment for raynauds.
Taking SSRIs just for Raynauds is a bad idea. though. Too many other unknowns and nasty seemingly permanent side-effects, not to mention withdrawal.

I haven't tried piracetam but the idea has been with me for some time.

Before I was on an SSRI, though, I was frequently experimenting with things that helped or exacerbated my symptoms.
I found that the following helped circulation, but this sometimes caused my hands to become flushed
  • CoQ10,
  • sildenafil (viagra),
  • tadalafil (cialis),
  • cayenne pepper/extract
  • cannabis (signifcantly helps, and the symptom relief lasts for multiple weeks!)
  • l-arginine (increases nitric oxide and is a vasodilator)
  • beta blockers (epinephrine is heavily implemented in raynauds. Those who have it have lowered levels of epinephrine and dopamine, and proportionately high levels of norepinephrine http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3425974
  • alcohol improves circulation but makes m hands bright red
Thing to stay away from!:
  • Tobacco/nicotine
  • Caffeine
  • Stimulants (i.e. adderall)
  • the cold!
I hate Raynauds though. When I'm symptomatic, my hands are always either bright red or deathly purple with orange splotches. They are never 'white' / normal flesh color like other peoples' hands and people frequently ask what's wrong with my hands. It sucks explaining, too.

But, going off the finding that there is a high norepinephrine:dopamine/epinephrine ratio in Raynauds sufferers, maybe there is a way to level the three catecholamines out to normal ratios? This is a possible topic for researching more in depth.

Another thing that helps greatly is 'physical therapy', that is to say do lots of cardio! And, do exercises for the muscles in your arms, like those hand grips guitarists use. This will allow blood to circulate more efficiently.

A short term fix is holding your arms above your head for a few minutes. This will cause your hands to looks completely normal but it will only last for a few minutes.

Good luck man, I know how bad raynauds sucks.
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#5 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 03:01 PM

What piracetam dose are you nervous about?

4.8-9.6 g/day. Point is, as with nifedipine, I'd like to avoid (or minimize) intake of xenobiotic substances. I *do* use piracetam (800-1,600 mg/day), and I'd actually previously tried 4.8 g/day but after about two weeks, I'd noticed no improvement at all with respect to Raynaud's.

Let me know if you want me to append this thread to the earlier one.

Yeah, I'd seen that article...if it's helpful to append it (for a focused, concatenated thread on the topic), by all means.

I too, suffer from Raynaud's. Or at least when I am not on an SSRI. When I am on an SSRI (zoloft or prozac) my symptoms nearly completely vanish, even in freezing weather.

Hmmm...FWIW, signs of Ranaud's didn't manifest for me until my late 20's, shortly after I'd gone through ~two years of zoloft. Ironically, much of the rest of my life had been spent with the opposite problem; constantly hot, sweaty palms. When the current problem started, my hands were so scathingly dry and cold (corpse-like) that my hands and fingertips were badly ulcerated...this is still the case to a small extant (you can notice a minor ulceration on my thumb in the photo above). Of course, this adds another problem when I'm touching public door handles, light switches, bathroom faucets, during the day.

Are you on an SSRI right now? I'd been prescribed zoloft to treat severe, life-long depression, suicidal ideation etc. (again, little more than legal drug dealers) Without going into personal detail, my experience on zoloft was pretty....bad. These are no longer an option for me anyway.

Too many other unknowns and nasty seemingly permanent side-effects, not to mention withdrawal.

I've been there, brother.

I haven't tried piracetam but the idea has been with me for some time.

I'm a full-time student, and I can certainly attest to its nootropic effects. Sure, some may see it as a "boring, basic" option, but I think its safety and efficacy vindicates its use, even if its not as potent as other nootropics.

cannabis (signifcantly helps, and the symptom relief lasts for multiple weeks!)
l-arginine (increases nitric oxide and is a vasodilator)


Interesting...I wonder about L-Lysine...

beta blockers (epinephrine is heavily implemented in raynauds. Those who have it have lowered levels of epinephrine and dopamine, and proportionately high levels of norepinephrine http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3425974

Thanks, I'll bring this up with my GP.

alcohol improves circulation but makes m hands bright red


Same here! I'd consumed red wine nightly for a few years, and the relief was remarkable. Indeed, I'd looked forward to it more for that reason than any other. Unfortunately, my liver enzymes have been through the roof for years (I initially incorrectly attributed this to supplement use), and I recently found out via http://snpedia.com/i...php/Promethease that my liver does not process alcohol efficiently and is more susceptible to its toxicity (the same for even healthy fats, unfortunately). Since abstaining from red wine and olive oil, I've found that my plaque psoriasis has markedly improved... But that means that I can no longer seek relief from Raynaud's the way I used to...

Caffeine


This is a tough one. I've tried to cut it out of my routine, but the brain fog hurts my academic performance, not to mention that cutting out caffeine sure as hell doesn't help the depression. It's a Catch-22...

But, going off the finding that there is a high norepinephrine:dopamine/epinephrine ratio in Raynauds sufferers, maybe there is a way to level the three catecholamines out to normal ratios? This is a possible topic for researching more in depth.


Thanks for the lead, I'm going to look into this.

Another thing that helps greatly is 'physical therapy', that is to say do lots of cardio! And, do exercises for the muscles in your arms, like those hand grips guitarists use. This will allow blood to circulate more efficiently.

I'm a 5K runner and habitual exerciser...but it doesn't make a difference for me (ironically, I didn't have Raynaud's when I was 30 pounds heavier and subsisting on junk food).

Thanks for sharing, it's such a strange, idiosyncratic phenomenon (like psoriasis), it seems there must be some common thread uniting the sufferers...

Edited by Taurus Londoño, 15 February 2014 - 03:08 PM.


#6 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:26 PM

BTW, regarding L-Arginine, L-Lysine, Nitric Oxide, and endothelial function...

1. Carter BW, Chicoine LG, Nelin LD. L-lysine decreases nitric oxide production and increases vascular resistance in lungs isolated from lipopolysaccharide-treated neonatal pigs. Pediatr Res. 2004;55(6):979-87.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15155866

2. Rembold CM, Ayers CR. Oral L-arginine can reverse digital necrosis in Raynaud's phenomenon. Mol Cell Biochem. 2003;244(1-2):139-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12701823

3. Freedman RR, Girgis R, Mayes MD. Acute effect of nitric oxide on Raynaud's phenomenon in scleroderma. Lancet. 1999;354(9180):739.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10475187

4. Cooke JP, Marshall JM. Mechanisms of Raynaud's disease. Vasc Med. 2005;10(4):293-307.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16444858

Alas, it's more complicated than all that...

5. Matucci cerinic M, Kahaleh MB. Beauty and the beast. The nitric oxide paradox in systemic sclerosis. Rheumatology (Oxford). 2002;41(8):843-7.
http://rheumatology....t/41/8/843.full

6. Luiking YC, Deutz NE. Biomarkers of arginine and lysine excess. J Nutr. 2007;137(6 Suppl 2):1662S-1668S.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17513444

And, there's this to worry about...
http://www.longecity...en/#entry500729

Edited by caliban, 17 April 2018 - 07:38 AM.
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#7 Sciencyst

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

Good reads, thanks!

Regarding the last one... I think we can very well forget about l-arginine. It does help acutely but apparently not fit for long term use! :|o

Also, I just found out another thing to avoid: Alpha-GPC! It has alpha-1 adrenergic effects, and I accidentally double dosed it this morning and I'm all purple

And yeah, I am currently on Zoloft.. I improperly withdrew (cold-turkey) from it a few months ago, and my withdrawal symptoms were not going away, so I'm now on it again in the hopes that properly tapering off of it will reduce discontinuation effects. It's odd that you never had Raynaud's until after being put on Zoloft? Did the symptoms manifest after you stopped taking it? I know Zoloft has a seriously screwed up list of side effects, so it's entirely possible that the condition was a result of Zoloft. If it is, that is messed up. Here comes Zoloft lawsuit #142,543,125

Edited by katuskoti, 15 February 2014 - 08:55 PM.


#8 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:54 PM

Also, I just found out another thing to avoid: Alpha-GPC! It has alpha-1 adrenergic effects, and I accidentally double dosed it this morning and I'm all purple

Hmmmm...I've been using Alpha-GPC (500 mg 2-3x per day) for (nootropic) synergism with piracetam, as a choline source, and for power/energy gains during exercise. I actually love the stuff; anecdotally, I think it's even more effective than piracetam... However, I haven't taken the stuff in ~3 weeks after my last supply ran out...and the Raynaud's is the same as ever...

RE: alpha-1 adrenoceptor agonism/antagonism

(1) is a pretty interesting article on male/female differences in the modulation of alpha-adrenergic signalling (vasconstriction) via estrogen...which may go some way in explaining why apparently more women than men suffer from primary Raynaud's. However, findings back in '97 seemed to establish that alpha-adrenergic signalling is only part of the story.(2) There's a ton more on this in PubMed, but I'm still trying to figure out just how much of it is immediately actionable...

1. Srinivasa A, Marshall JM. Effects of cyclooxygenase inhibition on vascular responses evoked in fingers of men and women by iontophoresis of 1- and 2-adrenoceptor agonists. J Physiol (Lond). 2011;589(Pt 18):4555-64.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21807614

2. Cooke JP, Creager SJ, Scales KM, et al. Role of digital artery adrenoceptors in Raynaud's disease. Vasc Med. 1997;2(1):1-7.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9546943


And yeah, I am currently on Zoloft.. I improperly withdrew (cold-turkey) from it a few months ago, and my withdrawal symptoms were not going away,

I went cold-turkey....took some time, but I think I was ultimately better off. Obviously this is a sensitive issue, and I can't make any personal recommendations, but I can only say that going cold-turkey (and waiting for the withdrawal to wear off) worked for me. Eventually.


Did the symptoms manifest after you stopped taking it?


I'm not 100% sure I can say just how soon it was after I stopped taking zoloft. The first time it struck me that I had something wrong with my fingers and toes was during the winter, and I'm not sure if it was the same year I quit zoloft or two years after... But I will say it wasn't a gradual thing. It was one year during the winter, and all of a sudden my hands were cracked, ulcerated, and corpse-cold. Ever since, I've felt a little like this guy;
http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Coldhands

Edited by caliban, 17 April 2018 - 07:39 AM.
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#9 Gerrans

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:26 PM

I do not have Raynaud's, but I have suffered from chilblains. (I know that is nothing to a Raynaud's sufferer, but I once had them solid for four months and I can say my life became a misery throughout.) Since then I have discovered niacinamide. Niacin, rather than niacinamide, is usually identified for its dramatic ability to increase skin blood flow; but niacinamide has a beneficial effect too, and I like it better (effect lasts longer and is not painful). The way it works, I think it might help with Raynaud's, because it transfers blood from the core to the peripheral capillaries, triggers useful prostaglandins, and helps get toxins out of the body. Because it dilates blood vessels, it should counter constriction. A while after taking it, you experience a palpable sense of warmth, which creeps into the fingers and sometimes even the toes. I find that frankly magical. Best of luck.

Edited by Gerrans, 17 February 2014 - 11:27 PM.


#10 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:22 PM

Thanks.
I was actually of giving this a try-
http://en.wikipedia....itol_nicotinate

Also...considering my status as a pseudo-practitioner of CR, I got a chuckle out of this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24445877

#11 Gerrans

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:18 PM

Thanks.
I was actually of giving this a try-
http://en.wikipedia....itol_nicotinate


I have not tried inositol hexanicotinate, but I have read quite a lot about it. I am a bit dubious, because I sense the main thinking behind it is to provide a niacin effect without the flush--in other words, the thinking is commercial.

Over November and December, I did a series of experiments on my finger warmth, using various doses and combinations of niacin, niacinamide, and B-complexes. I ended up preferring niacinamide (backed with a small B-complex), because although it takes longer to warm the fingers, the effect seems to last longer and is also accompanied by a palpable sense of wellbeing, something I do not get from niacin. I count niacin with cayenne pepper as something that dilates peripheral blood vessels somewhat abruptly and relatively briefly, which ultimately is not much help to a chilblains sufferer.

Of course, there are reported downsides to niacinamide. It does not reduce cholesterol, for example. And on this site there is much talk of niacinamide accelerating aging. (I am not totally convinced on that but am prepared to risk it given I eat so many things supposedly correlated with reduced mortality, which I hope counterbalance the effect if it exists.)

Edited by Gerrans, 19 February 2014 - 04:23 PM.


#12 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:17 PM

I ended up preferring niacinamide (backed with a small B-complex), because although it takes longer to warm the fingers, the effect seems to last longer and is also accompanied by a palpable sense of wellbeing, something I do not get from niacin.


What dose do you take now?
The "palpable sense of wellbeing" resonates with me, because the most severe Raynaud's attacks (I had one earlier today) leave me feeling *exactly* the opposite.

#13 Gerrans

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:51 PM

I ended up preferring niacinamide (backed with a small B-complex), because although it takes longer to warm the fingers, the effect seems to last longer and is also accompanied by a palpable sense of wellbeing, something I do not get from niacin.


What dose do you take now?
The "palpable sense of wellbeing" resonates with me, because the most severe Raynaud's attacks (I had one earlier today) leave me feeling *exactly* the opposite.


I do not know why, but it took me a very long time to realise that the wellbeing feeling I get is actually a factor of the warmth. In other words, being warm (I mean internally, so that my hands and feet feel warm owing to dilation) is a sign that I am feeling healthy. Two other things that give me a feeling of warmth/wellbeing are oats, and also coffee with cream--but in those cases only probably for an hour. Once again, it took me an absurd amount of time (all my life) to realise that the warming effect I get from coffee with cream is not because the liquid is warm but because of a dilatory chemical effect on my blood vessels.

I take one regular 250mg niacinamide per day, plus a B vitamin. But this is because I am keeping warm externally anyway, to avoid chilblains that way. (At the moment I am wearing two pairs of arctic booties and three pairs of thermal socks, five hats, and the heating is on--plus I have a double glove ready to put on my left hand if needed--my right is much more resilient). So the niacinamide is left until I feel I am getting cold, which I bend over backwards to avoid. I also know how long the thermal effect of a meal lasts with me, and I chain-link coffees and teas with cream and milk throughout the day because of their thermic effect (which I have underestimated far too long). If I am going out in the elements I always take niacinamide with me, and I overlap doses to cover lulls. Although it has marvellous effects, I try to take as little as I need--partly because of the doubts about it, and partly because there is such a thing as too much of it, in which case the feeling of wellbeing turns into a cocooned, muffled feeling that is no longer so pleasant.

You could try the following experiment to see if it works for you: let your hands get a bit cold, and take, say, 750mg niacinamide, which should be more than enough. After a while, and it does sometimes take a long time, you might find, if you are like me, that your fingers start to warm up one by one. It is quite a thing. I used to wonder how a pill could do this, but it is by transfer of heat from the core to the periphery, the reverse of what happens when we get cold and our peripheral capillaries constrict to preserve warmth for the core.

Edited by Gerrans, 19 February 2014 - 07:59 PM.


#14 Sciencyst

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:35 AM

Have you heard of Nicergoline? http://en.wikipedia....iki/Nicergoline

It is used for vascular disorders such as cerebral thrombosis and atherosclerosis, arterial blockages in the limbs, Raynaud's disease, vascular migraines, and retinopathy.

Edited by katuskoti, 22 February 2014 - 01:36 AM.


#15 lourdaud

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:36 AM

Have you heard of Nicergoline? http://en.wikipedia....iki/Nicergoline

It is used for vascular disorders such as cerebral thrombosis and atherosclerosis, arterial blockages in the limbs, Raynaud's disease, vascular migraines, and retinopathy.


I've just started it and it's working surprisingly well, my hands have never been this warm.

#16 Sciencyst

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 01:36 AM

^ Wow, really? Nice. I would love to get my hands on some (and some in my hands, anatomically and physiologically) if you have a good experience with it.

Im super interested in this one.. Care to detail anything about it? Sides, duration, etc..

Does it make your hands red or normal flesh colored?

#17 username

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

Hm, has no one mentioned ginkgo yet?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12710841

edit:

Evening primrose oil (320mg) and fish oil are also recommended.
http://www.raynauds....auds/treatments


Antioxidants—N-acetylcysteine acts as a vasodilator via modulation of the vasodilator adrenomedullin. A recent observational study found that it decreases the frequency and severity of attacks. The number of digital ulcers and ulcer healing also improved.29 30

Aspirin—Although there is no firm evidence to support its use in patients with Raynaud’s phenomenon, daily aspirin is commonly prescribed for patients who have no contraindications.
possibly also aspirin.
http://www.bmj.com/c...eid=bmjjournals

Ginkgo, evening primrose oil, NAC, low-dose aspirin. I would try that combo and see how it goes.

Edited by longschi, 06 March 2014 - 04:47 PM.

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#18 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 01:21 AM

 

Have you heard of Nicergoline? http://en.wikipedia....iki/Nicergoline

It is used for vascular disorders such as cerebral thrombosis and atherosclerosis, arterial blockages in the limbs, Raynaud's disease, vascular migraines, and retinopathy.


I've just started it and it's working surprisingly well, my hands have never been this warm.

 

Prescription?
http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=US

 

I'd buy some from Sigma and put it into capsules, but $30 for 100 mg is more expensive than the prices offered by these shady online vendors...

http://nubrain-store...icergoline.html

http://www.worldanti...0-mg-50-tablets

 

BTW:
For what it's worth, since the original post, I've been using 6-10 g of L-citrulline.

http://examine.com/s...nts/Citrulline/

...I can't confirm any alleged nootropic benefits...nor can I confirm any enhancement of erect penis size.

Sadly, I also can't confirm whether or not it does anything for my Raynaud's. Could be placebo.

 

Unfortunately, to date, the single most reliably effective intervention (with the least side-effects) has been alcohol. :(


N-acetylcysteine acts as a vasodilator via modulation of the vasodilator adrenomedullin. A recent observational study found that it decreases the frequency and severity of attacks. The number of digital ulcers and ulcer healing also improved.29 30

 

Hmmm...interesting lead. Thanks.


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#19 StevesPetRat

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 03:04 AM

Be careful. Raynaud's may be an early marker of additional autoimmune or autonomic dysfunction (it was one of the first symptoms I got, now I have POTS, gastroparesis, hypohidrosis, dry eyes and mouth, etc, etc.).

 

Or, ya know, just a SSRI withdrawal side effect.

 

Prazosin (alpha blocker) was effective for me but it gave me bad orthostatic hypotension. I like it because it's NOT selective and it crosses the BBB. It can therefore help with sleep and anxiety.


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#20 Sciencyst

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:35 PM

What about Ibudilast? It's a PDE4 inihbitor, which is the same mechanism as sildenafil & tadalafil which are both excellent for Raynauds.



#21 Michele

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 01:02 PM

Just found this post via a Google search. I wanted to share what I've found over the years.

 

I've always looked to food rather that supplements for nutrients so I may have a different view that those here. I've used a plant-based diet to successfully eliminate symptoms from endometriosis.

 

I also used diet to successfully get rid of rosacea. The only symptom that remained was Raynaud's....until a week ago. 

 

I found out about L-arginine and found out what plant-based foods are high in them (nuts, which I never eat/ate) and started eating peanut butter daily. Voila! Raynaud's gone.

 

Then I found out that citrulline also converts to arginine and watermelon is high in it and ate more of that and no Raynaud's. The nuts have been the biggest boost however.

 

So, I have officially gotten rid of all of my symptoms and am looking forward to making sure that this sticks. The body is fascinating indeed.

 

The world's longest lived cultures follow a plant-based diet (Okinawan's, Seventh Day Adventists) and it seems to be something that indeed works for a variety of differerent ailments. 

 

Hope that helps. Removing foods that damage the endothelial is the first step (animal foods, oils, fruit juice, caffeine) and then adding in food high in arginine and citrulline is the next step and any brain fog, depression, cold hands/feet, etc. all goes away. Fun stuff.  :-D


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#22 Gerrans

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 01:47 PM

I do not go quite as far as you. I do take supplements. But I regard a lot of them as food. For example, a garlic supplement is food. Even a bark supplement is food. They are not chemicals made in a laboratory, even if they are chemically extracted in many cases.

 

I do not have Raynaud's (my sister does) but I suffer from chilblains. I eat healthily (love nuts), and I have not yet found a food that helps. On the other hand, niacinamide does. It may not be a food, but I am not going to forgo it on that account.


Edited by Gerrans, 10 July 2015 - 01:50 PM.

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#23 iseethelight

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 01:32 PM

Try high dose magnesium. Seems to be helping me a lot.



#24 Turnbuckle

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 01:52 PM

NAC has been found to help with Raynaud's, and it may well be that oral glutathione would work as well. I take Setria brand L-glutathione reduced for longevity, and that has a study showing that it does in fact make it past the digestive system.



#25 iseethelight

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:32 PM

I recently started taking iron supplements and my hands haven't been cold since. It's only been two days so it's kind of early to make conclusion but cold hands and feet can be caused by iron deficiency anemia.

 

I'm a healthy male btw. I've suffered from cold hands almost every day for the past 5 years.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: raynauds, vasodilation, circulation, endothelial function

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