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Regarding the RACETAMS, SLEEP QUALITY, and CONSISTENCY

sleep racetams racetam aniracetam oxiracetam piracetam pramiracetam alpha gpc choline rem

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#1 civilizedsavage

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:15 PM


Hi everyone,

So I've been taking a stack of Aniracetam, Piracetam, and Selegiline for quite some time now. The most difficult aspect of stacking Aniracetam and Piracetam was getting the choline ratios right, especially for something as potent as Alpha-GPC. After months of playing with the choline and racetam dosages, I've finally settled on the perfect regimen for myself. Well.... almost perfect.


My current regimen consists of:

Deprenyl Sublingual 5 mg
Piracetam 2.5 g (single dose with milk, 4 am)
Aniracetam 2.0 g (single dose with milk, 4 am)
Alpha-GPC at 25% of my total racetam dose (I'm using 50% purity)
Dexedrine 15 mg
Caffeine 200 mg (single dose, 5 am)
Multivitamin
Fish Oil
1.4 g glutamic acid in the morning, and 700 mg in the late afternoon
Melatonin 5mg Timed Release for sleep


For the first 2-3 days, it was truly beautiful. I was able to maintain my productivity levels all day, and my social skills also drastically improved. I did experience some memory recall problems for both short-term and long-term memories, but with enough thought, I was able to retrieve old memories.

So some of the problems I've experienced with my current stack is that my sleep seems to become compromised almost every night. I seem to be getting to bed maybe one hour later than usual, but I have no trouble waking up at my normal time in the morning. As a result, I've been sleeping 6 hours every night for a week now. I wake up feeling fine, and I am able to begin working through my agenda immediately. However, as the day went on, I found my mood to be flattened, and eventually to a point where I became irritable, emotionless and anhedonic. Also, the cognitive benefits also seemed to wane... possibly due to lack of sleep.

I suspect I am a bit deficient in choline, and severely REM deprived. The choline deficiency may be what is causing me to go to sleep a little later, and experiencing REM suppression. The melatonin further compounds on the REM suppression effect, thereby resulting in me getting lots of NREM, and subsequently feeling physically fine but mentally unstable. Also, I do not get headaches at my current Alpha GPC dose, but I have noted in my journal that I experienced bouts of confusion, mental fog, and some memory recall issues.

So last night, I tested my theory out that I could possibly take an Alpha GPC a few hours before bed in order to boost REM sleep. It worked like a charm, and I was able to dream all night, but sadly I overslept and ended up waking up a little late today. I was thinking perhaps I could take the second Alpha GPC dose every other day, just so I can maintain that balance of REM to NREM sleep. However, I was wondering if that would mess up my circadian rhythms due to my exogenous intervention. I would think it wouldn't, just because I am able to sleep at the same time every day and wake up at the same time every day.


Anyways, please let me know what you guys think, I need your help!

#2 mrd1

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:08 PM

A single oral dosage of 2000 mg for aniracetam is quite high. Have you tried splitting this into 2 or perhaps 3 dosages. I highly doubt you'd benefit much from over 1250 per dosage since even the high dosages ive seen studied in rats extrapolates roughly to 5-10 mg/kg (50-100mg/kg in rats).

As for the deprenyl and Dexedrine even at your low doses of each you may have reason to be concerned.

"Using selegiline together with amphetamine is not recommended. Combining these medications can cause dangerously high blood pressure and even death. You may use amphetamine only after you have been off selegiline for at least 14 days. You should seek immediate medical attention if you experience sudden and severe headache, blurred vision, confusion, seizures, chest pain, nausea or vomiting, sudden numbness or weakness (especially on one side of the body), speech difficulties, fever, sweating, lightheadedness, and/or fainting during treatment with selegiline, as these may be signs and symptoms of excessively high blood pressure. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor."

the glutamic acid is interesting do you have any research regarding that? I have never heard of its use for cognitive enhancement before.

If I had to take a guess that combo of selegiline and dexedrine seems like more than enough to cause all of the issues you describe.
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#3 civilizedsavage

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:16 PM

@Mrd1

Thank you for your advice. I have noticed some blood pressure problems and may anger issues escalating. I will either eliminate one of them, or lower dosage to bare minimum and only take it on my study days.

As for the glutamic acid:

http://www.longecity..._60#entry646792


#4 Babychris

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:37 PM

I don't need to do more than pointing that you are taking 5mg of melatonin to understand that your stack is stupid sorry man. Maybe I'm just jealous because I really can't understand how with of all that stuff you still feel human.. First of all go to 5mcg of melatonin, drop the awful selegiline (especially when you combine it with amphétamines lol)
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#5 Nobility

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:00 PM

WARNING:
  • **** Please seek PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ADVICE NOW.
  • ***** DEX + DEP = FATAL. MUST BE AVOIDED IN 14 DAYS. AND YOU ARE TAKING THEM TOGETHER, THAT IS INSANE. STOP ALL DRUGS NOW, SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVICE STRAIGHT AWAY! !!!

Dexedrine + MAO (Deprenyl) = MUST BE AVOIDED.

STOP ALL DRUGS AT ONCE.

WHEN USING DEXEDRINE, YOU MAY NOT TAKE A MAO WITHIN THE LAST 14 DAYS. OR THE NEXT 14 DAYS.
SO STOP ALL DRUGS AT ONCE.

Edited by Nobility, 02 March 2014 - 08:21 PM.


#6 Nobility

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:17 PM

WARNING: Dexedrine + Selegiline (MAO) = EXTREME DANGER !!!.

Stop all drugs at once, and contact a doctor or a pharmacist.

using any MAO within 14 days of most drugs (AND IT IS STATED WITH Dexedrine, DO NOT USE Dexedrine IF YOU HAVE TAKEN A MAO IN THE LAST 14 DAYS. LET ALONE TAKING TOGETHER. STOP THEM ALL AT ONCE AND CONTACT PROFESSIONAL ADVICE.

MAO + DEX = A variety of neurological toxic effects and malignant hyperpyrexia can occur, sometimes with fatal results.

IT IS EXTREMELY STATED, THAT YOU DO NOT TAKE ANY MAO WITHIN 14 DAYS OF TAKING Dexedrine

Edited by Nobility, 02 March 2014 - 08:14 PM.


#7 mrd1

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:59 PM

Based on the link you have provided, I would caution the use of glutamic acid as it doesn't appear to have enough evidence to support its usage given the information on http://www.longecity..._60#entry646792 as the main body of evidence that I see.

A. The original poster seems to claim that Glutamic acid in the dosage of 4,000 mg was responsible for
1. reducing his brain fog is < an hour
+
2. causing a serene but not loopy effect

A. My concerns over using this to justify the intake of glutamic acid is 1. A sample size (n) that is consisting of only one person is not big enough to draw meaningful conclusions. 2. "brain fog" is a subjective rather than objective measure making it even harder to determine exactly what change if any the glutamic acid had.

As for the other post on the very same link it appears these arguments where made.
B. Due to "glutamate-gaba" imbalances adding glutamate, glutamine, aspartame, ... increases the risk of excitotoxicity, cell death.."
C. "noots working with glutamate w/o gaba acting substances leads to excitotoxity
d. substances acting on or acting as precursors of glutamate towards to end of the day increases histamine which this then can compromises memory consolidation.

Issue with B. While it is perhaps possible that dietary glutamate in abnormally high doses might cause damage in newborn rats. Neuropathology resulting from consumption of glutamate or aspartate has not been described in man. (Amino acids as dietary excitotoxins: A contribution to understanding neurodegenerative disorders)

C. "It is suggested that the role of piracetam in this process might depend on the protective effect that this compound has upon glutamatergic receptors." Piracetam promotes mossy fiber synaptic reorganization in rats withdrawn from alcohol
Piracetam has extensive use both clinical and in the lab demonstrating its neuroprotective effects against excitotoxicity. Therefore, I do not see any evidence supporting the claim that just because a noot interacts with glutamate therefore, it causes excitotoxicity if not "counterbalanced"

D. "iracetam is an AMPAkine drug that may have a range of different mechanisms at the cellular level, and which has been shown to facilitate memory, amongst its other effects. This series of experiments demonstrated that a 10 mg/kg dose of piracetam facilitated memory consolidation in the day-old chick when injected from immediately until 120 min after weak training (i.e. using a 20% v/v concentration of methyl anthranilate) with the passive avoidance learning task. " (Piracetam, an AMPAkine drug, facilitates memory consolidation in the day-old chick)

I can not find a single study suggesting that piracetam like compounds can impair memory consolation. If anything it increases it.

#8 civilizedsavage

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:06 AM

Hey guys,

So thank you all for replying.. Over the past few days, I've begun to realize just how much damage I was doing, mainly due to the Dex+Dep+GlutamicAcid combo. Out of the past 7 days, 4 days were considered "ruined", in which I was initially productive but slowly descended into a catatonic mess. I've discontinued everything but the Piracetam and the Aniracetam, and have added a good multivitamin + fish oil (LEF 2 per day + Nutrigold 1 per day). Honestly speaking, I do not feel as if I've experienced significant brain damage, but I do feel that my cardiovascular health has been negatively affected to some extent. My resting pulse is currently 120. I realize that is bad, and I should be taking care of myself. Therefore, I will start exercising on a daily basis for a few weeks. I will report back when I make a full recovery. Again, thank you all for the feed back!

P.S. The 4 gram glutamic acid trial was just a one time thing. I did right around 800 mg - 1500 mg per day afterwards. I do not advocate this dosage. Bare bones dose of 250 mg should be used if needed. That is all.

#9 civilizedsavage

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:49 AM

Well, its only been a few hours since I stopped taking the Dex and Dep, but I must confess this SUCKS big time. The good news is, resting pulse is back at 90 and I feel well rested. I suppose the body and mind needs the rest, but I am contemplating just dropping the Selegiline and adding Dex back in. Cheers mates, its going to be another journey for me.

Edited by civilizedsavage, 06 March 2014 - 11:51 AM.

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#10 mrd1

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:20 PM

I personally benefit greatly for my on label Rx use of dexamphetamine daily long term. It hasn't done me wrong even 5 years later.

#11 civilizedsavage

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

@mrd1

I saw some of your earlier posts and variations of your stacks, and I've gotta say, damn dude you're one hardcore mf. If its benefiting you, then more power to ya, but I just wanted to ask how you can take all those things without worrying about possible interactions, and how you come across those dosages (did you adjust them so that they can synergize and work well together, or did you just take conversion amounts from studies?).

Anyways, the dex has been working for me for several months now. However, it only seems to last about 4-5 hours at most. I know tolerance may be an issue here, but I simply do not want to increase my dosage for safety reasons. Do you think additional supplementation can fill in the gaps? and if so, do you have any recommendations?
I have considered cerebrolysin and memantine as possible holiday options.

#12 mrd1

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:57 PM

Basically, I can take all those things without worrying about interactions by worrying the hell out of interactions. I mean I have had full blown EKGs and thyroid scanning when a issue of a possible interaction came to my attention. The more you know the better off you are. However, you will never know enough to be safe. I am studying this stuff for hours and hours a day without even reaching the tip of the iceberg of what you need to know. Also, I document everything. I rewrite my entire stack with dosages every single time I take it. So, if anything bad happens the doctors know I took X, Y, Z... today at this dosage and what I have been taking each other day also in pain staking detail.

As for my dosages all of my dosages come directly from studies. With the majority of them coming from rodent studies where I convert the dosage to a human dose by multiplying my weight * the mg/kg used on the rat then I divide the answer by ten to adjust for differences in metabolisms. I do not tinker with the dosage at all PERIOD, I literately just convert it over and consume that calculated dosage.

Given that you don't have a abnormality in your heart (which they can check at your doctors. They put a vest on me and I just wore it all day. Or, go directly to a cardiologist. They gave me like a ultrasound but of my heart.), caffeine seems promising at improving many of the dependant variable changes shown to be altered by dexamphetamine like alertness, working memory (*although impaired at super high dosages esp. in caffeine niave individuals), and focus. To my knowledge the strongest degree of evidence exists for either 200 mg or 400 mg of caffeine. With 200 mg having the most for improving memory and 400 mg for maintaining wakefulness. I personally consume between 900-1800 mg of caffeine a day which is likely to cause significant and possible serious complications for many individuals. If anxiety is the issue, 200 mg is much less likely than 400 mg of caffeine to cause anxiety because it lacks the ability to inhibit Gaba as if I recall correctly that is starting at 240 mg.

To consume 200 mg of caffeine that is roughly 2-2.5 cups of coffee (black) or 4 cups of tea. Given that you take a stimulant, if you are not familiar with caffeinated products, I would first ask your doctor if it is ok to drink 2.5 cups of coffee with your dexamphetamine.

On a side note, caffeine shows pretty interesting preventive effects for both Alzheimers and Parkinsons. Also, tolerance to the adenosine antagonism (which is the main long term mediator of its effects) likely doesn't occur to a significant degree. With perhaps a modest upregulation of the adenosine receptors no more than like 19% (I believe) from extreme chronic long term exposure.

#13 civilizedsavage

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 09:59 AM

But caffeine has a half-life of 4.5-5 hours depending on the individual. Wouldn't 900-1800 mg caffeine be negatively act on the restorative process of sleep? I mean unless you're taking it at a single dose first thing in the morning, then I could see how your body could adjust to the levels in your system by the time its time for bed. I have been taking 200 mg every day for months first thing in the morning with no problems. Any more than that, and it seems to be counterproductive for me... Though the ADD side of me will always love stims, I feel the most potential benefit would come from long term potentiation through NGF inducing drugs (ie. Lion's mane, Cerebro, Dihexa, NSI, etc.) but they're too expensive for my budget a the moment! :(

Edited by civilizedsavage, 08 March 2014 - 10:00 AM.


#14 mrd1

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 04:22 AM

I have narcolepsy my issue is staying awake. Even still caffeine is not a recommended treatment for narcolepsy. 900-1800 mg of caffeine is likely to cause significant and possibly serious side effects for the majority of the population. I am a extremely odd case in no way representative of the general population. With that said, a lot of the claims on caffeine and insomnia (esp. when it is consumed in the AM) is likely exaggerated. (WedMD)

Perhaps, if the halflife is 4.5-5 hours you could try taking a "booster" 100 mg at lunch and seeing if it interferes with your sleep (specifically, your sleep latency, meaning time it takes you to fall asleep).

While NGF and actually the entire class of neurotrophins are likely to play a important role in the new generation of neuroscience, I would caution an oversimplifistic view of the brain as it is extremely complex and likely, therefore, that you could benefit from not putting all your eggs in one basket. Although, at this time, and based on the research, NGF seems like a pretty damn good basket.

Also, on a side note, its nice to hear terms like long term potentiation and NGF outside of a neuroscience lecture and actually getting used by people to do things.

#15 civilizedsavage

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:15 PM

Mrd1, thank you for your input. I was considering increasing the caffeine, but it seems my body does not seem to agree (tried 300 mg yesterday and slept very little). I have just ordered some cerebrolysin and will be trialing 10 ml per day, 5 days a week, for once cycle of 4 weeks.

I have found yet another piece to the puzzle this week, and I realize it has been an arduous journey for me the past few months experimenting with my current stack. The experimentation process has been a tedious one, as I found myself constantly increasing and decreasing the dosages of each of the racetams and choline in small increments and judging the effects. For months on end, I've found myself shifting between states of catatonia, mania, and severe depression... I felt hopeless and often considered just dropping everything in exchange for a simple life. But I couldn't just give up yet. Through it all I've learned that even though I'm stressed to the max, my will to survive and my will to succeed will never waver, simply because I know that its all for the dream that one day, I will be a happy person again. My dream, is to help the less fortunate in this world who've struggled like me. My dream is to contribute something positive to the world through my work. My dream is to meet new people, to travel the world, to learn new things, and constantly challenge myself on a daily basis. And so, I continue to climb.

Getting back to reality, I realized the Selegiline definitely complicated things and made it so that I would have to find my "sweet spot" for myself instead of using a general ratio advised by other forum members. I suppose everyone has their own individual needs, so its something that everyone must go through. But now I believe I've found a good ratio and the proper dosages as well.

It will take a great amount of discipline, diligence, and dedication to harness hypomania. Knowing when to stop the distractions, prioritizing your agenda, eating healthy, exercising, sleeping, and closely monitoring the effects of nootropics at their respective dosages is the only way. Wish me luck ya'll, I'm in for the ride once again!

#16 civilizedsavage

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:43 AM

Took the same dose as yesterday, was effective for about 4-5 hours, then wore off. Was very dissapointed since I had a lot of work to do today. I suspected that maybe if I took more Piracetam and Aniracetam with very little Alpha GPC, I could regain some of that hypomanic magic I had yesterday. After taking a second dose consisting of 750 mg aniracetam and 2.5 grams piracetam, Indeed, I reached this hypomanic state, but with an added undesirable effect that seemed to cancel out any of the previously reaped benefits: BRAIN FOG

It's a different type of brain fog from the normal amounts I experience as a result of my condition. This type of brain fog is an apathetic one. I'm very very relaxed and free of any thoughts whatsoever, and the worst part about it is that I seem to just let it all happen with an uncharacteristic indifference.

For now, I'll chalk it up to me stressing out my adrenals. I had like 5 hours of sleep last night, and lots of caffeine today. I also had a very stressful morning, so perhaps these factors all contributed to my current issues. Taking more of the racetams was probably a mistake, though I've been adding more and more alpha GPC throughout this evening to see if it would lift me back up a little bit. Only time will tell. Any input is greatly appreciated.

To counteract the adrenal fatigue and ACH depletion, I took around 10 grams of high quality fish oil, LEF Multis, and most importantly, 2 Solaray Jiaogulan capsules. I will also try to restore my original sleep schedule by waking up at 530 am tomorrow and eating the bulk of my calories earlier in the day while purposefully inducing a caloric deficiency so that my body can reach a catabolic state, and then wake up 400 am on Friday after fasting followed by another huge breakfast upon waking.

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#17 civilizedsavage

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:36 AM

An update:

http://www.longecity...ia/#entry650065





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: sleep, racetams, racetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, piracetam, pramiracetam, alpha gpc, choline, rem

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