3 replies to this topic

[penisbreath]

I always avoided cholinergics, including Lecithin, because I was under the impression that they were bad news for OCD and depression.

Anyway, I hadn't been having much luck taking Uridine alone, or in combination with DHA -- both alternatives just tended to overstimulate me ..

So I decided to pick up a bag of Lecithin from the supermarket a couple of day ago. I'd been feeling especially wound up and overstimulated a few nights ago, and was worried about another impending night of insomnia. Anyway, I ate 2 tablespoons of the stuff, settled down, and then woke up the next day with any sense of physical anxiety, stress and overstimulation having vanished. I felt slightly 'down', but also less manic and more in touch with reality. This is after weeks, bordering on months, of feeling stressed out and hypervigilant.

The downside is that it either induces brain fog or makes my thoughts annoyingly 'circular', whereas they feel more direct and purposeful on stimulants. It also, while calming, exacerbates my bruxism .. and also akathisia to a degree.

Since I have been battling the latter, I don't want to overdo the cholinergics. But when I tried a couple of tablespoons in conjunction with DHA (250mg) and Uridine (~125mg), the combination felt more manageable and I started to notice some psychostimulant-like effects which I presume the ultimate endpoint should be.

I'm not very familiar with how Lecithin should be dosed -- I see people taking it by the tablespoon-full in conjunction with 'racetams, but can't find anyone using it with Uridine, nor any rough dosing equivalent to other forms of choline. I was wondering what a suitable sort of ratio to Uridine might be, so that I don't overdose on choline .. ? Also is it possible to dose just once a day and reap benefits? I notice mood stability as well as bruxism setting in very shortly after ingesting 2 tablespoons, whereas 1 had less apparent effect.. but the bruxism does worry me. I guess I could play around with increasing the Uridine, or splitting the Lecithin dose up?

[truboy]

Lecithin feels great for 2-3 days, but than makes me depressed. Would advice to use 2 -3 times a week.

[mrd1]

I believe the hypothesis that cholingerics cause depression stems from a paper "A CHOLINERGIC-ADRENERGIC HYPOTHESIS OF MANIA AND DEPRESSION". by (Janowsky Et Al., 1972)

More specifically, Dr. Picciotto discusses the role of acetylcholine in depression briefly in her lecture on nicotine. Where I believe, the story is that Janowsky Et Al. observed that when you'd give people cholinesterase inhibitors you could induce states of depression in people both with and without past histories of depression.

On a unrelated semantic tidbit, muscarinic acetylcholine receptor antagonists have sometimes been noted to cause euphoria (although, most people say they wouldn't repeat the experience). Also, in the nucleus accumbens a small amount of muscarinic receptors are present.

The role of acetylcholine in depressive episodes may stem from their actions on Nicotinic gated ion channels in the amydala. Because, by binding to the ion channel it can cause it to become activated and open. And, a dysregulation where a hyperactivity of the amydalas has been noted to be implicated in major depressive disorders. Interestingly, while IV nicotine worsens depressive symptoms and smoking makes it worse in the short term. Both gum and transdermal use of nicotine and after the short period of time where the cig is smoked, nicotine can bind to acetylcholines binding site and can't be broken down as efficently. The result is the nicotine ion channels in the amydala become desensitized and less likely to open. The result is a possible decreased activity in the amydala and mediating a antidepressant effect counter intuitive to what would be expected from the research where nicotine is IV.

All that nicotine stuff is a little off topic but, I feel helped me understand how acetylcholine could cause depression. Basically, if acetylcholine binds to a nicotinic gated ion channel in the amydala it can cause the amydalas to be hyperactive and therefore, cause a dysregulation that is implicated in the abnormality of a brain with Major depression.

[Mr Serendipity]

The role of acetylcholine in depressive episodes may stem from their actions on Nicotinic gated ion channels in the amydala. Because, by binding to the ion channel it can cause it to become activated and open. And, a dysregulation where a hyperactivity of the amydalas has been noted to be implicated in major depressive disorders. Interestingly, while IV nicotine worsens depressive symptoms and smoking makes it worse in the short term. Both gum and transdermal use of nicotine and after the short period of time where the cig is smoked, nicotine can bind to acetylcholines binding site and can't be broken down as efficently. The result is the nicotine ion channels in the amydala become desensitized and less likely to open. The result is a possible decreased activity in the amydala and mediating a antidepressant effect counter intuitive to what would be expected from the research where nicotine is IV. 

 

I've been looking into ways to help my chronic hypomania which can be exacerbated by a amygdala visualization exercise I sometimes practice. Recently I've become aware that lecithin may help alleviate mania in some people, so finding this information on how it might interact with the amygdala is very interesting to me.