12 replies to this topic

[mrd1]

Moderator's Note:

The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of administration method causes Smoker's Melanosis, and it is likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number of moles which smokers and their families get. 

The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa.

 

Despite never being a smoker, I was intrigued by nicotine and the research surrounding its use in mild cognitive impairment, ADHD, and Depression. One of the things that really brought it to my attention was that ketamine had a metabolite that acting on the nicotinic receptor and that aniracetam also had interactions with the nicotinic receptors. However, I didn't feel aniracetam had a powerful enough action on the nicotinic receptors and I was partically interested in nicotine because of its extreme availability. However, with clear and overwhelming evidence on the harms of smoking I decided to try nicotine gum. And, after going through a 20 pack at Walgreens I quickly bought a 398 pack of 4 mg peices for $59.99 at Costco.

I decided to rapidly taper up to 7 4 mg pieces since the patient for cognitive decline was for 14 mg and since the gum has 50-60% biovailability, from what I could gather, I doubled it. Therefore, consuming a daily 28 mg in nicotine gum per day.

However, due to the efficacy and cost effectiveness of the nicotine, I increased it further to 40 mg (10 4 mg pieces / day). Which, still has been very well tolerated with the only side effects being feeling stimulated and a mild tingling in my mouth when nicotine was being absorbed with a slight decreased interest in food during the day.

When pairing caffeine 200 or 400 mg with nicotine, its to further enhance nicotine's subjective effects despite 200 mg by itself not really being distinguishable from placebo on its own in my experience.

This morning,

I consumed my typical Rx medications for my depression, narcolepsy, and ADHD

Adderall Xr 30 mg (ADHD, Narcolepsy)
Strattera 80 mg (ADHD)
Effexor 150 mg (MDD)
Tenex 1 mg (ADHD)
Nuvigil 225mg (Narcolepsy, Excessive daytime sleepiness from hereditary sleep apnea [meaning not caused by or worsened by things like excessive weight or inactivity])

However, I included the addition of the "supplements"
Nicotine Polacrilex 12 mg (4 mg within 30 min of waking, Then 8 mg after consuming my caffeine source)

*I also consumed breakfast consisting of 1 fruit 3 carbs with roughly 12-15g of fiber in those total and 750 kcal

and
160 mg of caffeine w/ 25 mg of l theanine via a sugar free NOS energy drink (16 oz)*
* I normally consume coffee, green tea, and black tea. However, I bought 2 16 oz sugar free NOS to celebrate the positive results of nmda antagonism and muscrinic antagonism w/ GSK3B inhibition and High affinity choline uptake inhibition being tolerable and plausible based on my own notes and trials.

Anyway, I believe this combination of nicotine and caffeine has improved the speed at which I wake up, increasing my alertness, decreasing my fatigue, increasing my interest in things I enjoy, as well as my organizations, and over all happiness.

But, there is many confounding variable in my case example and a sample size of one is much to small to draw some meaningful conclusions. However, I hope this might provoke some discussion into the nootropic potential of a combination of nicotine and caffeine.

Edited by YOLF, 25 March 2017 - 01:23 AM.

[Jeoshua]

NOS brand energy drinks contain one heck of a lot of compounds than just Caffeine and L-Theanine, like Taurine and Inositol, plus B Complex. If you've noticed a qualatative difference from Tea or Coffee, it's likely the Taurine, which is by far in higher amounts than in the afformentioned compounds.

[mrd1]

That's a valid point Jeoshua!

I think B vitamins partically folic acid, B6, and B12 are particularly underestimated. However, a lot more people have deficiencies than you'd think. For example my sisters vegan and has a B9 and B12 deficiency. Also, my best friends older sister, has B vitamin deficiencies.

Particularly, one factor seems to be eating vegan or vegetarian without fully understanding how to get B vitamins by doing things like adding brewers yeast to popcorn.

I actually bought bulk taurine and Inositol when making my first nootropic stacks when I was concerned about anxiety.

Taurine seems to be interesting for reducing fear to facial recognition. And, for increasing testosterone. But, I believe these doses are high but far from impossible. (1 g and 4 g respectively * I think)

And, inositol in grams also seems promising for anxiety. Especially, for people who would rather a natural treatment for there anxiety.

I actually just stopped inositol because I was too lazy to pack all those grams used in the research but had no side effects. Same with high dosed taurine.

[medicineman]

nicotine is my most effective nootropic. focus, energy, all areas of cognition enhanced. I read less and retain more, I don't get tired, etc

I am rotating in icu, and nicotine as gum or patch, keeps me sharp and awake during the exhaustive shift. Days I don't take nicotine, I crash less than 6 hours after waking up.

Sorry, nicotine + caffeine... The perfect couple.

[Saffron]

You can order european snus from northerner, its shipped from Pennsylvania.

Remember, snus is not disgusting like chewing tobacco, they are a night & day difference. snus doesnt make juice you spit. Snus is not cured its steamed so it doesnt have hardly any nitrosamides. snus has about equal non-toxicity to gum

I would recommend mrd1 not go to other things like an Electronic-Cigarette because then you get hit with a pleasure-buzz and could become addicted. In a person with low tolerance and only oral use, a cigarette or electronic-Cig would cause a strong buzz of intense pleasure and make you want to become a vaper or smoker. Cigarette smoking doesnt cause a high, it causes a pleasure-buzz that then gets weaker with repeated use all the way down to only a mild pleasure induction before the tolerance stops.

how fast a drug kicks in is related to its addiction - so like for example someone drinking coca leaf tea in south america is doing something 100 times less addictive than someone sniffing isolated cocaine or smoking crack. its important things be time released

also addiction and dependance are not the same, you will still become dependant on nicotine gum

addiction means desire to do it to get a pleasure. dependance means desire to do it to avoid withdrawal... additive and subtractive, respectively. So remember mrd1 .. although addiction might be lower with gum, dependance will still be high.

Example: Paxil has no addiction but very high dependance

Example: ice-cream is the inverse of paxil example. it has moderate addiction (desire to eat it) but no dependance (dont get withdrawal when it runs out)

Edited by Saffron, 20 March 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[Jeoshua]

I would recommend mrd1 not go to other things like an Electronic-Cigarette because then you get hit with a pleasure-buzz and could become addicted. In a person with low tolerance and only oral use, a cigarette or electronic-Cig would cause a strong buzz of intense pleasure and make you want to become a vaper or smoker. Cigarette smoking doesnt cause a high, it causes a pleasure-buzz that then gets weaker with repeated use all the way down to only a mild pleasure induction before the tolerance stops.

Your points about speed of action are valid, but your assesment of e-cigs as giving one a "pleasure-buzz" is not correct. Vaping is much more of a slow, relaxing thing than smoking a Cigarette, and has never once given me that all-too-familiar cigarette buzz.

[Saffron]

yeah theyre weaker, but not to someone who has never smoked before!

also a good ecig has LOTS of vapor, most are bad with less vapor

Edited by Saffron, 20 March 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[mrd1]

I do agree that snus is probably alot safer than smoking. And, the addictiveness of something has a lot to do with how it is injested. However, Nicotine gum is probably safer and I like that it only contains nicotine. Although, I can see from your post clearly your on the opposite side and want to use things as close to nature as possible. And, given that snuss is definitely safer than cigerettes but does still carry some significant risks. Perhaps, a more middle way approach where it be recommended a current smoker replace with snuss if he doesn't like nicotine gum and if your never a smoker using a trans-dermal patch or gum but not a e cig (as it more rapidly hits the brain).

Also, this all clearly are drugs and like all drugs if you take them for a long time you shouldn't never discontinue them without slowly taping off. Also, if you ingest nicotine in any kind you should still provide it, the dosage, and how to consume it whenever doctors ask if you take any medications or supplements.

Edited by mrd1, 20 March 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Dazzcat]

While I agree that nicotine is an effective cognitive enhancing compound, I don't think it deserves to be considered a nootropic, but rather a stimulant as it is potentially habit forming. I know this may seem odd, but nicotine gum is one factor that potentiated my addiction to tobacco, I was chewing gum for motivation and improved mood long before I found myself addicted to tobacco. While pure nicotine has less dependence than ciggies and seems relatively harmless at first, it's one of those drugs that can really sneak up on you.

I personally find the cognitive benefits from nicotine diminish after long term use or heavy use, most likely due to receptor downregulation, I find it an incredibly hard chemical to moderate, so it's rather easy to over do and spoil the positive effect. Once you start to get use to having nicotine daily, it's not fun at all without it.

All I'm saying is be careful and perhaps just stick to low dose nicotine patches if you insist on using nicotine, any fast delivering mechanism for nicotine is likely to increase it's dependence potential, including gum as it's still relatively fast absorption, especially when chewed quickly.

Edited by Dazzcat, 20 March 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[mrd1]

"Long-term potentiation (LTP) is widely considered to be the cellular substrate of learning and memory. The induction of LTP becomes more difficult with age in parallel with declining learning and memory ability. Because nicotine improves learning and memory in aged rats, we examined the effects of acute and chronic nicotine exposure on age-related declines in LTP induction. We found that acute nicotine exposure lowered the threshold for LTP induction in the aging hippocampus. The effect of nicotine was mimicked by the α7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAChR) antagonist methyllycaconitine and blocked by the non-α7 nAChR antagonist dihydro-β-erythroidine, suggesting that both nicotine-mediated desensitization of α7 nAChRs and activation of non-α7 nAChRs contribute to the nicotine effect. The non-α7 nAChR agonist A85380 that facilitates the induction of LTP in the young hippocampus had no effect, however, suggesting that at least one pathway involving non-α7 nAChRs was altered by aging. Chronic nicotine treatment of aged rats also lowered the threshold for LTP induction and acute nicotine exposure lowered the threshold further in the chronic-nicotine-treated aged hippocampus. These results not only suggest that the mechanisms mediated by acute and chronic nicotine exposure are different, but also demonstrate that age-associated declines in LTP induction can be reversed with nicotine treatment." (Fujii &Sumikawa, 2001)

Dazzcat,
Based on this I believe we are talking about two different things. There seems to be both an acute (short term) effect and a chronic (daily) effect. And, based on this, tolerance is not a factor for chronic (daily) use cognitive enhancement because it is dependant on the a7 nAChs desensitizing which is litterly "tolerance". So, it appears the way in which your body adapts to nicotine in the hippocampus is responsible for mediating any long term cognitive enhancement and therefore, not subject to tolerance.

[Dazzcat]

Dazzcat,
Based on this I believe we are talking about two different things. There seems to be both an acute (short term) effect and a chronic (daily) effect. And, based on this, tolerance is not a factor for chronic (daily) use cognitive enhancement because it is dependant on the a7 nAChs desensitizing which is litterly "tolerance". So, it appears the way in which your body adapts to nicotine in the hippocampus is responsible for mediating any long term cognitive enhancement and therefore, not subject to tolerance.

Firstly my comments were from personal experience, I don't find any benefit from chronic use of nicotine, only from acute and the point I was making the chronic use is where alot of the problem lies, yes cognition enhancement may persist in some, but it doesn't come without the risk of dependence.

Regarding the science, being active in the evp-6124 group buy I've read a bit into a7 nAChr agonists and from what I understand, their effect is not from chronic use, it's immediate through activating this receptor complex, any desensitisation is detrimental to the cognitive benefits as suggested by the research into evp-. The difference with nicotine it is a full agonist, so receptor desensitisation is more likely compared to evp- which is only partial. Also there are other nAChr's that are involved in the cognition enhancement and anti-depressant qualities of nicotine, perhaps the receptors that mediate dopamine release and therefore the addictive properties, which in turn can produce some concerning side effects from chronic or heavy use.

Edited by Dazzcat, 20 March 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[unregistered_user]

While I agree that nicotine is an effective cognitive enhancing compound, I don't think it deserves to be considered a nootropic, but rather a stimulant as it is potentially habit forming. I know this may seem odd, but nicotine gum is one factor that potentiated my addiction to tobacco, I was chewing gum for motivation and improved mood long before I found myself addicted to tobacco. While pure nicotine has less dependence than ciggies and seems relatively harmless at first, it's one of those drugs that can really sneak up on you.

I personally find the cognitive benefits from nicotine diminish after long term use or heavy use, most likely due to receptor downregulation, I find it an incredibly hard chemical to moderate, so it's rather easy to over do and spoil the positive effect. Once you start to get use to having nicotine daily, it's not fun at all without it.

All I'm saying is be careful and perhaps just stick to low dose nicotine patches if you insist on using nicotine, any fast delivering mechanism for nicotine is likely to increase it's dependence potential, including gum as it's still relatively fast absorption, especially when chewed quickly.

Good post. You've summed many of concerns I share quite nicely.

[sakay]

nicotine is overhyped