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A new way to look at ADHD treatment

adhd amphetamines methylphenidate dopamine agonist antagonist autoreceptor tolerance upregulation uh-232

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#1 agora

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:23 PM


Being diagnosed with ADHD myself, I take 30mg Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine) in the morning and 5mg focalin (dexmethylphenidate) in the afternoon. I was wondering however, wouldn't it be better to increase dopamine through other ways to prevent tolerance from ever happening?

My answer to this is UH-232, which acts as a D2 antagonist selective only for the pre-synaptic D2 auto receptor (it also is somewhat of a D3 partial agonist). It was apparently studied on schizophrenics, and "unexpectedly" made them worse. A D2 auto receptor antagonist simply put should make the neurons think they are not making enough dopamine and make more right? Doesn't this theoretically mean you can have more dopamine release just like amphetamines without the possibility of tolerance?

There are other compounds that do the same thing. I never understood why people on here don't look more into this kind of stuff. Another example is PTI-609 which is an mu opioid agonist but binds to Filamin A to stop G-protein coupling which forms tolerance on the mu receptor, giving you the same pain relief every time without an increase in dosage.

If D-receptors are also G-coupled, could there theoretically be a compound that can bind somewhere on the receptor and stop desensitization just like PTI-609?
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#2 Tom_

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

That will cause re-regulation of the receptors and doesn't escape tolerance issues.

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#3 agora

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:42 PM

That will cause re-regulation of the receptors and doesn't escape tolerance issues.


I guess that rules out auto receptor antagonists. Now we just need a compound to stop the protein coupling.....

#4 xks201

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 12:15 PM

It has been proven that many people with ADHD do not have dopamine metabolism abnormalities. Methylphenidate for example increases attention in just about everyone. Grey matter loss has been found in people with ADHD for example.

I learned this by realizing that you can only increase dopamine so much and that by far is not enough to cure most peoples' ADHD.

Edited by xks201, 15 March 2014 - 12:16 PM.


#5 agora

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 01:17 PM

It has been proven that many people with ADHD do not have dopamine metabolism abnormalities. Methylphenidate for example increases attention in just about everyone. Grey matter loss has been found in people with ADHD for example.

I learned this by realizing that you can only increase dopamine so much and that by far is not enough to cure most peoples' ADHD.


Then why does MPH also calm me down? My friends who do not have ADHD have taken things (MPH, Vyvanse, etc) that I have and they tend to act more hyperactive whereas I tend to be very calm while on them.

Not trying to attack your arguement, I am just legitmately curious.

#6 xks201

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 01:31 PM

I'm not saying dopamine metabolism is right in everyone with adhd. I am saying according to the study I read that grey matter loss is significant in most with adhd. Ritalin calms most people down. Amphetamine amps most people up. You get used to any drug. People who are not constantly taking stimulants will have more stimulating effects when taking them than someone who takes them constantly. These stimulants also work on serotonin in different ways.

This is why I can't wait until the clinical side becomes more precise and they can test for dopamine transporter abnormalities before throwing everyone on stimulants.

#7 GreenLemon

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 02:33 PM

Hi,

Regarding tolerance;
In my opinion and experience I think you must take a day off every 7 days. So take it from Monday - Friday, and skip Saturday and Sunday if you can.
And then at summer,Christmas,Easter,etc take a full holiday of them then (E.G: Months off the medication in Summer, weeks off at Christmas/Easter/etc. )

And every now and then take a couple of weeks off the medication (all of it).

Also try a good quality Omega (fish oil) .

- --- - ------
keep your sleep in check [+] ..... If you are very low on sleep and take the Stimulants you will get psychotic. not fun . so get your sleep. and in my opinion, if for some reason you end up staying up to 3am and need to wake up in a couple of hours and go to work/etc, then it would be better [NOT] to take the Stimulant, as when you get LITTLE sleep = psychotic,etc. just whatever you do; get enough sleep (8-9 hours at least), try to aim for 10-11 hours...
for sleep, it may be good to AVOID all benzo's, and that type of class...

there are some sleep aids, such as antihistamines BUT 99% of otc/rx sleep medications = less sleep quality. but still, its much better to take a antihistamine that gets you to sleep at 9/10pm than going to sleep at 2/3am.....
don't smoke.....

ohhh and DON'T drink heavy amounts of alcohol (avoid alcohol if you can), with the medication... alcohol + stimulant medication = EXTREMELY EXTREMELY BAD ON THE HEART. but if you are going to drink alcohol then make sure its not at the same time with your meds, you don't drink too much alcohol,etc.

also drink at least a liter of water each day.

and eat fish at least twice a week...... also, eat with the medication..... this makes a big difference.....


avoid bad chronic stress (what I mean by this is; if something is bothering you to the extreme please try to fix/calm/etc -> find a solution to it)


have your blood pressure/heart/etc (check up with your GP every now and then ( at least every 6 months I think) ??? 2

#8 BioFreak

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:46 PM

Increasing dopamine, or any compound that acts on the same receptors causes downregulation through different ways:
  • downregulation of production (which you probably could reverse with a d2 antagonist), but also
  • downregulation of receptors (meaning decrease in number of dopamine receptors)
  • increase in dopamine turnover through increase in DAT, which moves dopamine back into the vesticle (which dri's block),
  • and increased metabolism of dopamine through MAO and comt.
interfering with all of those paths is a bad idea, of course, because the brain needs to have selfregulatory
mechanisms to guard itself from neurotoxicity. Dopamine, as well as its metabolites can be neurotoxic, especially intracellular.

I would argue that those areas in the brain that are underactive in ADHD will not downregulate through increased dopamine, while the other areas will, which ultimately would lead to a homeostasis with equal brain activity in all parts of the brain.

Tolerance may in amphetamines also develop through catecholamine depletion. If there are not enough catecholamines in the brain, amphetamines can't release enough.

Tolerance, however, may not only come from the dopaminergic pathways. Maybe decreased serotonin levels play a role in tolerance. Meaning high dopamine levels likely lower serotonin levels, which when too low not only has problems on it's own, but also could decrease the effects of the dopaminergic system itself.

Then there is the possibilty of chronic tolerance through neurotoxicity: the more dopaminergic neurons get destroyed, the less dopamine can be produced, and ultimately, amphetamines stop working.

So to get tolerance with amphetamines under control, I would:
  • decrease neurotoxicity
  • test if increasing serotonin does improve symptoms
  • test if supplying (very small amounts of) catecholamine precursors helps. (very small because in combination with amphetamines it can be very unpredictable, especially at first)
  • Maybe take drug holidays

In context to your original post (lol, I drifted away too much) I would say that increasing dopamine through blocking d2 will not work because of the other regulatory measures, and an increase in receptor density should do the same thing.
You could, in theory, end up stopping catecholamine production alltogether, but supplement with l-dopa so there still are catecholamines in the system, but this would only work if you could stop receptor density decrease as a last adaptation. But this most likely would be a bad idea.

Maybe it works for the opioid system because it has less ways to adapt, maybe because opioids are less neurotoxic then dopamine and it's metabolites. I don't know that, though.

#9 GreenLemon

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:27 PM

Increasing dopamine, or any compound that acts on the same receptors causes downregulation through different ways:

  • downregulation of production (which you probably could reverse with a d2 antagonist), but also
  • downregulation of receptors (meaning decrease in number of dopamine receptors)
  • increase in dopamine turnover through increase in DAT, which moves dopamine back into the vesticle (which dri's block),
  • and increased metabolism of dopamine through MAO and comt.
interfering with all of those paths is a bad idea, of course, because the brain needs to have selfregulatory
mechanisms to guard itself from neurotoxicity. Dopamine, as well as its metabolites can be neurotoxic, especially intracellular.

I would argue that those areas in the brain that are underactive in ADHD will not downregulate through increased dopamine, while the other areas will, which ultimately would lead to a homeostasis with equal brain activity in all parts of the brain.

Tolerance may in amphetamines also develop through catecholamine depletion. If there are not enough catecholamines in the brain, amphetamines can't release enough.

Tolerance, however, may not only come from the dopaminergic pathways. Maybe decreased serotonin levels play a role in tolerance. Meaning high dopamine levels likely lower serotonin levels, which when too low not only has problems on it's own, but also could decrease the effects of the dopaminergic system itself.

Then there is the possibilty of chronic tolerance through neurotoxicity: the more dopaminergic neurons get destroyed, the less dopamine can be produced, and ultimately, amphetamines stop working.

So to get tolerance with amphetamines under control, I would:
  • decrease neurotoxicity
  • test if increasing serotonin does improve symptoms
  • test if supplying (very small amounts of) catecholamine precursors helps. (very small because in combination with amphetamines it can be very unpredictable, especially at first)
  • Maybe take drug holidays
In context to your original post (lol, I drifted away too much) I would say that increasing dopamine through blocking d2 will not work because of the other regulatory measures, and an increase in receptor density should do the same thing.
You could, in theory, end up stopping catecholamine production alltogether, but supplement with l-dopa so there still are catecholamines in the system, but this would only work if you could stop receptor density decrease as a last adaptation. But this most likely would be a bad idea.

Maybe it works for the opioid system because it has less ways to adapt, maybe because opioids are less neurotoxic then dopamine and it's metabolites. I don't know that, though.


Nice,

found this on another site,

Amphetamine tolerance is caused by excess Ca++ influx through the NMDA receptor gated calcium channels on the outer membranes of the dopamine cells bodies in the ventral tegental area, one of two areas in the brain with concentrations of dopamine producing neurons.

As alluded to above, taking an appropriate NMDA (partial) antagonist will prevent the development of a tolerance for the effects of an amphetamine or amphetamine-like stimulant. Also, by preventing excess Ca++ influx into the neuron, an NMDA antagonist will prevent associated brain alterations and damage (excitotoxicity).

Studies have indicated that amphetamine tolerance is prevented by exogenous or endogenous agents that are able to inhibit excess Ca++ influx into the neuron through the gated calcium channels on the neuronal membrane that have NMDA subtype glutamate receptors.Glutamate , the body’s major excitatory neurotransmitter, opens the gated calcium ion channels upon attaching to the NMDA receptor. A number of other receptors are also expressed on these calcium channels, which, when stimulated, either facilitate or inhibit glutamate’s action.

It is also important that agents that inhibit calcium channel activity not also cause deficient Ca++ influx. For example, ketamine is a full NMDA receptor antagonist, that prevents excess Ca++ influx and amphetamine tolerance. But being a full NMDA antagonist, ketamine in excessive doses results in deficient Ca++ influx. This could be one of the reasons it leaves K-user in a state of disassociation.

So basically we have following NDMA antagonists:
1. Memantine (Akatinol/Axura)
2. Acamprosate (Campral)
3. Amantadine (Symmetrel/Amantix)
4. Magnesium (supplement)
5. Dextrometorphan/DXM
6. Ketamine
7. PCP
(funny that 5,6,7 are recreational drugs)

Two of them have minimal (or none) side effects and have been identified (and verified by one anecdotal person, which has been taking amphetamine-type stimulants and NDMA antagonist with same beneficial effects for a period of 2 years) as preventing amphetamine tolerance: 1) Memantine and 2) Acamprosate.

1) Memantine is a partial NMDA antagonist that effectively puts an upper limit on Ca++ influx without compromising healthy levels of Ca++ influx. Memantine is not available in the US at this time. It is in stage 3 trials for Alzheimer’s disease. US approval may come within the next 2 years. Memantine is now approved in the European Union for the treatment of Alzheimer’s. It has been marketed in Germany since 1978 for the treatment of dementia and other cognitive disorders. It comes in 10mg tablets. One or two tablets/day are sufficient to prevent amphetamine tolerance, overactivity of the NMDA receptor and consequent free radical stress inside the neuron. The most expensive option though.

2) Acamprosate (n-acetyl-homo-taurine) analogue of the amino acid taurine. Alternatively, it may be termed as a carrier molecule for taurine, that allows taurine to readily cross the blood brain barrier, unlike taurine itself. Taurine is a NMDA receptor antagonist. Acamprosate is an investigational drug in the US, undergoing stage 2 (?) trials for the treatment of alcoholics. It is available in most European countries as a treatment for alcoholism, with great efficiacy. Cheaper than memantine, however efficiacy should be the same.

3) Amantadine, originally used in the treatment and prophylaxis of influenza infection and drug-induced Parkinsonism, also blocks NMDA receptors. Besides it is beneficial in traumatic head injury, dementia, multiple sclerosis,cocaine withdrawal and depression. Amantadine appears to act through several pharmacological mechanisms, none of which have been identified as the one chief mode of action. It is a dopaminergic, noradrenergic and serotonergic substance, blocks monoaminoxidase A and NMDA receptors, and seems to raise beta-endorphin/beta-lipotropin levels. I couldn't find what amount of the drug should be used to block NDMA. Cheaper than Acamprosate. No one has tested it yet, but I think it would be a good choice.

4) Magnesium is also an NMDA antagonist. Most people are deficient in magnesium, and stress reduces magnesium levels. Whether or not one takes amphetamines, magnesium supplementation is very important for mood, general well-being and keeping stress levels under control. It is also important to take magnesium in efficient form, with adequate bioavailability. The best type is magnesium glycinate (chelated) with bioavailability at around 80%. Second best is magnesium carbonate with (I don't remember exactly) bioavailability at little above 30%. Supplemented magnesium should be at 500 mg/day level. Also there is a study which shows that children who use amphetamine-type stimulants have bad magnesium/calcium balance. Calcium levels stay the same with amphetamine usage, but magnesium levels drop.

5) DXM - definitely the cheapest option of all NDMA antagonists, but I'd rather use Memantine or Acamprosate. Although, I've heard anecdotes that doses as low as 70 mg/day are enough to block NDMA - I couldn't find those amounts in abstracts/studies.

6) and 7) I wouldn't use as an amphetamine tolerance prevention. Ketamine for its known effects (you wouldn't want to be in a K-hole during the tweak just for the sake of prevention tolerance)
PCP - this one doesn't need explanation. It has nasty side-effects and I've mentioned it just because it is a NDMA antagonist. I wouldn't touch it even if it was dirt cheap.


So basically combination of partial NDMA antagonist and amphetamines should prevent tolerance. But I'm curious whether NDMA antagonists are able to *reduce* amphetamine tolerance. If yes then my goal would be to reduce it as far as to the point of first speed experience :] Right now, I have high amphetamine tolerance (too much tweaking during short time in the summer) so I will be using Acamprosate to try and reduce my tolerance. I'll post my results here.
And sorry for the length of the post - but I just wanted to write down everything I researched during last few days (I skipped PubMed abstracts).
Take care.



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#10 agora

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 05:44 PM

Hi,

Regarding tolerance;
In my opinion and experience I think you must take a day off every 7 days. So take it from Monday - Friday, and skip Saturday and Sunday if you can.
And then at summer,Christmas,Easter,etc take a full holiday of them then (E.G: Months off the medication in Summer, weeks off at Christmas/Easter/etc. )

And every now and then take a couple of weeks off the medication (all of it).

Also try a good quality Omega (fish oil) .

- --- - ------
keep your sleep in check [+] ..... If you are very low on sleep and take the Stimulants you will get psychotic. not fun . so get your sleep. and in my opinion, if for some reason you end up staying up to 3am and need to wake up in a couple of hours and go to work/etc, then it would be better [NOT] to take the Stimulant, as when you get LITTLE sleep = psychotic,etc. just whatever you do; get enough sleep (8-9 hours at least), try to aim for 10-11 hours...
for sleep, it may be good to AVOID all benzo's, and that type of class...

there are some sleep aids, such as antihistamines BUT 99% of otc/rx sleep medications = less sleep quality. but still, its much better to take a antihistamine that gets you to sleep at 9/10pm than going to sleep at 2/3am.....
don't smoke.....

ohhh and DON'T drink heavy amounts of alcohol (avoid alcohol if you can), with the medication... alcohol + stimulant medication = EXTREMELY EXTREMELY BAD ON THE HEART. but if you are going to drink alcohol then make sure its not at the same time with your meds, you don't drink too much alcohol,etc.

also drink at least a liter of water each day.

and eat fish at least twice a week...... also, eat with the medication..... this makes a big difference.....


avoid bad chronic stress (what I mean by this is; if something is bothering you to the extreme please try to fix/calm/etc -> find a solution to it)


have your blood pressure/heart/etc (check up with your GP every now and then ( at least every 6 months I think) ??? 2


I definitely follow this rule, but now that I got prescribed 5mg focal in boosters I just take one on Sunday to do my homework/other work. I also have a tolerance reducing stack that works pretty well:
NAC
Magnesium Glycinate
PQQ (Neuroprotection from dopamine)
ALCAR (Same as above)
Taurine

I take other things but they don't necessarily help tolerance, just help avoid side effects. The NAC, magnesium, and taurine all somehow lower NMDA (magnesium and taurine are weak NMDA antagonists, and NAC lowers glutamate release) As the post bellow you says, tolerance being caused by NMDA calcium influx in completely right. I used to take Memantine for it, and my medication worked even better. However, I had to stop as it made me feel dumb. I've been contemplating buying acamprostate as it does not interact with ACh receptors as memantine does, which may have been why I felt the way I did.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: adhd, amphetamines, methylphenidate, dopamine, agonist, antagonist, autoreceptor, tolerance, upregulation, uh-232

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